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Enduring should not affect new Decisive Strike
New DS is now an anti tunnel perk and AMAZING for solo survivors, but Enduring completely eats it. While I agree in most scenarios that perks should counter perks, DS should be a free escape if you are in the 60 sec grace period after being unhooked.
DS will still have counterplay (not going for the unhooked, slugging) but as a solo survivor, a part of me dies inside when a teammate farms me off the hook and the killer still goes for me, and then catches me again in 0.5 seconds cause Enduring EATS DS.
DS could also be changed to have a longer stun (which I don't think is the proper way to handle this) but keeping it at 3 secs without Enduring affecting it should be ok
Thoughts?
Comments
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Tunneling is awful and out of the unhooked guy's control: who is farmed uses DS to have a real protection, and deserves it.
8 -
Agreed.
2 -
Either it shouldn't affect DS or the stun needs to be the old times.
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You're never going to get anyone on board with this except those who rely on DS as a crutch.
It's an extra chance. That's all. Not a get out of jail free card. It's a "oops I left the jail door open - see if you can get away before I catch you" card.
4 -
Killers are tunneling even harder because of the new emblem system. Anyone playing solo is going to have an even worse time than before. You may as well DC if you're getting tunneled. You are going to depip anyway. There's no reason to stay if you haven't earned any BP and your team is farming you in front of the killer. I normally don't condone DCing and get pissed off when someone i'm playing with DCs but this is officially the dumbest thing ive seen the developer do in the 2 years ive been playing.
I hate SWF as much as killers do, but i officially don't have a reason to play unless i'm farming BP as Doctor. If you want to pip or earn anything you HAVE to play as a SWF or pray you get a really boosted killer.
You can do all 5 gens by yourself and break all 5 totems. If you don't get an opportunity to heal someone or unhook them, or be a dumbass and intentionally get chased... You will not pip as a survivor. You will safety.
Playing killer with this new emblem is about time management and hooking events, which is what it should have always been... But now it's like the dev WANTS you to tunnel in order to get hooking events. Considering how some SWFs will abuse certain mechanics, thats you're only hope if you want to get your rank 1 ach. Playing survivor, now i have to throw myself at the killer in order to pip? lmfao the dev hasn't shot themselves in the foot, they blew the sucker clean off.
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Idk what everyone's talking about. I'm pipping just fine as killer and survivor. These pip changes were very much needed. Now it's harder to get into red ranks and stay there. Finally the potatoes are out. Finally I don't have to take my time ranking up to get to rank 6-8 where I truly feel I belong. Now my skill level will actually go up. You guys just want bragging rights to get into red ranks with out any effort at all. Take your time to enjoy the game for once. Stop rushing things.
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I agree with this change.
0 -
*lol*
God forbid that killer actually have a counter to anything survivor have.
Only survivor are allowed to have 100% counter perks, right?
What people here call a counter is just forcing the killer to play to your liking and give free escapes.
You know what you all could do to avoid this "issue"?
Don't do stupid unhooks while the killer is near. Problem solved.
5 -
By the look of the recent updates, Devs chose to force this path into killer's gameplay.
Not surprised to see peoples even talking about the old DS as a balanced, legit perk, who only got nerfed because of "crybaby killerino", then.
Like everything is fine.
3 -
As if I can trust my survivor teammates in solo queue lol. Also there are situations where bad unhooks are the only answer (Im on a hook, no one comes to get me, someone else is caught and hooked and ONLY THEN im unhooked so I dont enter stage 2/death, killer comes back and decides to kill me again and my only protection is DS, and that is taken away by a pretty meta perk)
If i am going to run a gamble with an anti tunnel perk that only lasts 60 secs, I should be allowed to make it more then 2 feet before the killer smacks me down again and I go right away go back on the hook. Call it survivor privilege if you want, but Endurings interaction right now with DS is a huge slap in the face to anyone who runs DS.
4 -
With how situational DS is now i'd say there is no reason for Enduring to work against it.
9 -
And here we go again… "but bad teammates…"
If we -as a community- insist on balancing every survivor related thing around the bad teammates, we also need to balance KILLER thing around bad player.
A team consist of different people and still has to be considered as ONE side in an asymetrical game. Sometimes you have to live with what they do. Survivor ain't complaining if one of their teammates is really good and completely carries the team, but no one is asking for nerfs because some player are better, right?
Can you see the iussue in your own argument??
5 -
I love tunneling, I don't care how survivors feel about it, but it's great to obliterate one survivor out of the four early in the game.
However, in this I agree with @HighQualityDonut . Either ignore Enduring, or make the stun timer longer. If a survivor is worried about being tunneled (and it sucks, I know), current DS is the only somewhat reliable counter. They have to sacrifice a perk slot for it, plus, it's one time use. It's simply not fair that a killer perk which has other applications too can (almost) competely negate the effect of a one time use perk. And let's just not forget, often it's not even the killer but another survivor's dumb rescue is what leads to tunneling.
I'd personally rather go for making the stun timer longer by a little, and let Enduring still have an effect, but I guess making Enduring not work on the new DS stun is also a solution.
8 -
Why is it unfair? Survivor have perks that completely counter other killer perks. Why not the other way round?
The main reason to pick Enduring is DS. It's not like there are so many different uses for this. It's pallets and DS.
Why is it fair for the killer? Killers best chance to win is to remove one survivor early in the game. The longer all 4 survivor are alive, the more difficult the game becomes for the killer.
5 -
Why do you want to make Enduring worse by removing one of the only things that it's actually good for? Not to mention remove the only soft counter DS has.
4 -
This suggestion is really over the top.
Some survivor mains show true colors here. They don't want a balanced game or a healthy meta, they just downright ask for getting the edge. Their stuff is allowed to counter killer stuff, but not the other way round.
#doublestandards
4 -
@Wolf74 and @Orion like I said, I'd be completely ok with Enduring working on DS, but in this case, a slight increase on the timer would be necessary.
Again, I agree with you Wolf74 that successful early tunneling is a blessing. On the other hand, it's incredibly frustrating for a survivor when they get annihilated in a game where they used Cake or BPS. New DS is generally a weak perk, it's only good against tunneling, and it only works one time in a game. I see no reason why that single use should not be made effective.
Many perks work like this by the way: you simply choose your perks based upon what you hate the most. If you hate Doctor the most, you pick Calm Spirit. If you're worried about Nurse, pick Dead Hard, Iron Will, maybe UE. If you're fed up with too many killers using NOED, take Small Game, and so on. I'd say if you've been tunneled too much, you should be given an opportunity to have an effective counter. 3 seconds minus Enduring is not an effective counter.
Btw, I don't think I've seen a single survivor using it since the change (granted, it's only a short time, but I played a lot since DLC is out). So it's not really a big issue for me, it's just how I feel it should be a reasonably balanced perk. Feel free to disagree.
2 -
People just want a fun game. Most people that play killer are pretty bad. All they do is circle within 30m of the hook waiting for the tunnel. It's really dull.
4 -
"you simply choose your perks based upon what you hate the most."
So you say that this is exclusive for survivor and killer are not allowed to do the same?
3 -
You don't take enduring to deal with decisives (at least not now that it's nerfed), you take it to deal with the pallets, something that you have to deal with in every map (some more then others), every game. It's not situational at all and making decisive stun less then a second is unbalanced in my opinion.
3 -
Killer player are "people" too. And they want to have "fun" also.
In an asymetrical game the best way to win as the solo player is to reduce the team as fast as possible.
This is a core element of the game. If survivor are to entitled and spoiled to deal with that, they might better stay away from these kind of games.
There is no "right" to play a certain amount of time in the game (unless you are the killer).
If you -you in general, not you personally- hate being the first one to get killed, better be stealthy and avoid being the first one found. That mindset would actually solve a lot of killer issues, since the games would be longer.
4 -
No the best strategy is to pressure survivors, not wait around the hook to tunnel. Whats fun about that anyway? The fun is in the chases, thats why when I hook a survivor I go find a new one.
0 -
Good thing i saved this:
The bad teammates dilemma in a nutshell.
Back on topic:
Enduring is the "get shorter stuns"-perk, why the heck shouldnt it work on a stun?
3 -
When did I say anything about "wait around the hook"?
If I am anywhere near, chasing, kicking gens, collect traps, refill hatchets, protecting Hexes, regular stuff killer should do and a survivor gets rescued near by… I go there to check for it and it is always easier to follow the bleeding, groaning injured survivor than the healthy one. And it is much easier to down an injured, than a healthy. So yes, this is mor efficient.
There is no need to call everything names like "tunneling". If I can find the unhooked -most likely because it was a bad, unsafe rescue anyway- I will go for the easier prey. Because it is logical and not "tunneling".
3 -
@Wolf74 nope, I'm not saying that. A lot of killer perks are used for similar reasons: hate looking for the last survivor at the point when none of you has found the Hatch yet? Whispers! Got trouble finding downed survivors? Use Deerstalker. Lots of scary items in lobby? Franklin's. Genrush: NOED. Blabla, I guess I don't have to spell it all out for you.
Sure, some of these do not negate completely whatever tactics, perks, etc you're trying to counter. But there are a lot of other factors to consider. How strong the effect you want to counter is? Is it always available, or it has a cooldown, or perhaps it's one time use? These all must be taken into account when evaluating how balanced a perk or "counterperk" is.
Trust me, if new DS stays at 3 seconds, AND Enduring still has an effect on it, it will join Wake Up and Solidarity in the trash bin.
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I'm sorry but if it didn't effect it then DS would be insane in the end game once the gates are opened. A Perk for a perk is fair in my opinion.
3 -
What's your point? Most killer perks are also situational, the reason why the survivor meta is like this is because most survivor perks work in every game with little counterplay from killers which is ridiculous in the first place.
2 -
Yeah, the note about endgame is a very good point: once gates are open, DS now is a better get-out-of-jail card than teammates having BT. I don't think though that whether there is or there isn't an Endurance effect makes a big difference.
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But you want to exclude Ednruing from that. If a killer hates DS, he can't do anything about it.
1 -
We already have BT and now there is DS in my opinion enduring is a good counter to the new ds plus if I am being honest usually there is a pallet right near you, enduring should stay like it is right now because imagine BT and DS at the endgame.
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@Wolf74 not at any cost. Whether it's gonna be adjusted, or stays the way it is now, makes little difference for me. I definitely wouldn't be up in arms if it stayed at 3 seconds, minus Enduring, and I wouldn't object if it was changed to the opposite either.
There's a number of much more pressing issues that need fixing.
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What's your point?
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Sorry, but that won't change anything.
So this perks needs to be weaker, otherwise it is a force multiplier.
Those that are strong (SWF) will get even stronger, while solo survivor only gain less from it.
Do you notice the Ironie?
If you buff those perks, so that solo survivor gain a good benefit from it, they are totally broken on SWF, which would be completely unfair (and unfun) for killer player.
0 -
"You are only pushing more to SWF rather than balancing it so SOLO play is fun."
Have you ever bothered looking at this from the killer perspective?
How is further boosting overpowered SWF with voice com any "fun" for killer player?
I know… "fun" is exclusive for survivor only.
Serious, I hate this narrative.
0 -
???
Enduring has always been a perk to eat stuns. Yeah let's nerf that perk to the ground so killers have no chance at catching up to survivors who stun them.
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Yea, nice logic… there is a perk that's literally made to reduce stuns from survivor, but lets exclude effects from specific perks, because… I don't know… just because.
3 -
Yeah, either Enduring shouldn't effect stuns like it did in the PTB, or DS and HO should have their timers increased to 4 seconds to counter enduring better. Enduring + a 4 second stun would still negate both perks by a lot (like how it used to) but it wouldn't be the "survivor takes 2 steps and gets downed again" situation.
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And what about those killer that do NOT run Enduring?
Just because there is one perk to counter it, can't be the justification to make it op versus anybody who does not have that perk.
2 -
It's fun
0 -
Just don't pick the survivor up, don't tunnel, or do other things? That's assuming the timer would be 4 seconds of course, the other option wouldn't really matter seeing as Enduring wouldn't effect it.
0 -
Both perks work as intended and take up 1 slot in the loadout screen. If you think it's not powerful enough, equip another perk like small game. Get rid of that dreadful NOED before it procs, so we don't have to put up with 100 weekly threads about it.
Even if enduring works on the stun timer, the killer is still getting stunned, the survivor still drops from the killer's shoulder and the chase is lenghtened. You guys have to understand it's not a no-skill free escape anymore. It's a chance at a escape, only. And it is really strong in the endgame, and still punishes non-tunneling killers in certain scenarios anyway.
When killer meta perks get gutted (BBQ), everyone makes a choice. Either equip it, knowing it's inferior to the previous version, or replace it with a more useful perk.
2 -
You're talking about 1 counter against BBQ. There were around 4 or 5 at the time, now we have specific perks working against it and giving you an edge (Distortion), they made lockers hide your aura too, etc. You're all trying to eliminate the only perk-form counter new DS has?
And I'm not talking about camping, I'm talking about perks that were once deemed too powerful get downgraded to the point of being half useful, or situational at best, and the playerbase has to adapt.
1 -
DS sucks to deal with, i agree. For the longest time, I ran a double exhaustion build instead of running DS purely bc of how unbalanced DS is (Dead Hard and Balanced landing, devs reduce pallets? just abuse the environment lol) but new DS is really interesting in that the only time you will get a DS off now is if the killer decides to try and rehook you right after you get off the hook.
Enduring makes the perk a gamble to use, although it was a gamble already in the first place to use since whether or not you use the perk is completely up to the killers targeting. If you are lucky/unlucky for the killer to go for you again in that 60 sec grace period, you should be allowed to get a smidge of distance when DS'ing him, instead of the current "u stabbed me and i recovered before u hit the ground lol"
I try to play around my teammates (despite the legion chapter lowkey being a mess, I fell IN LOVE with Aftercare. Being able to give my location to teammates is huge, plus I can see which teammates actually use that information to be efficient) but sometimes you just gotta look out for yourself. If DS is going to be an anti tunnel perk, then at least let it do its job. Enduring needs to not affect DS, or DS stun needs to be 4 secs to match the old DS (which I don't like cause it punishes non-Enduring users)
2 -
All you guys are thinking is to punish the tunneling killers, but yesterday I got hit with two DS in the same scenario:
Surv 1 is hooked, surv 2 saves her,
I chase and 2-hit surv 2,
surv 2 is hooked, surv 3 saves him,
I chase and hit surv 3, BUT mid-chase I run into Surv 1, who hasn't healed or hid, or ran away. Obviously I down her, and eat DS immediately after. All this happened in less than 60 seconds obviously.
No enduring equipped, surv 1 gets away, surv 3 gets away too. Punished for no reason, or at most, punished for capitalizing on the other players' mistakes. Really made me think about equipping enduring on all my killers now.
If you all are going to ask for enduring not to work on the stun timer, then make new DS not proc if someone else has been hooked during those 60 seconds.
3 -
My last note for now, DS has requirements to meet (being hooked) and a limited time window its active for. DS has a lot of counterplay to it now. But all that counterplay goes out the window if Enduring just deletes DS. If Enduring lessened the stun to maybe a sec or 1.5 sec, I would be fine with it. But it's literally under a sec right now and the killer can turn around and hit the survivor before the survivor can even move/ get out of M1 distance of the killer. I don't want Enduring nerfed but Enduring should have a "healthier" (thats a debatable word im using lol) interaction with DS or no interaction. A 3 sec stun is still not a lot for the survivor to work with but thats fine imo.
0 -
Very good point, but DS can be abused by SWF or hook diving. Enduring should affect the DS stun but the current under a sec stun is tbh not fair.
*I know its not good counterplay but DS does have a timer, slugging people in that scenario could have been wise if there is an obs in the game. These are all my 2 cents, Im happy though that I have been getting a lot of feedback from both sides!
2 -
Yes almost certainly they were SWF hook divers in those scenarios I described.
Either your suggestion about Enduring not having such a hard effect on DS, maybe just alleviating it,
Or my suggestion about DS not proceeding if someone else has been hooked in those 60 secs,
Those are two reasonable options the devs could consider.
But making enduring not work at all, or lenghtening the stun timer, IMO are not the best suggestions.
2 -
I won't lie, the first time I ate a Decisive Strike with Enduring since the Plague patch, I was caught off guard by how small the stun was, and that was just with a Tier 1 Enduring (technically, DS was Tier 1 too, but the only thing that changes between tiers for Decisive is the amount of time it is active upon unhooking). Doesn't mean that I necessarily think the interaction should be changed persay, but damn, unless you're right next to a loop or the Killer is a potato, you are not getting far from a Killer with Enduring using DS.
1 -
Survivors on old DS: Enduring is a direct counter.
Enduring actually counters DS now.
Survivors: omg it shouldn't counter DS.
3 -
"Just don't pick the survivor up, don't tunnel, or do other things?"
So... don't pick up? The next survivor will call that unfair, because slugging is "unfun".
And I risk them healing up to be ready for a run pick pick up or Unbreakable.
Don't tunnel? Why not? Why should I play stupid and don't remove a player from the team ASAP? How about survivor stop doing stupid unsafe unhooks? Why do the Devs punish the killer player for bullcrap the survivor player do?
1
