When will something be done about SWF rigging
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spectating players delay isn't going to fix anything. The core advantages of SWF stem from what you can do whilst alive. You can tell other players if the killer comes for them when they leave you on the hook, if they orbit the hook, which generators they're checking, you can tell people to pick up your almost-done generators as you lead the killer away, you can ensure people are in wait so you intentionally go down on pallets with survivors waiting nearby to drop them.
In short, so many things that solo survivors would literally never or almost never have the info to do.
I don't have friends with DBD (and in the current SWF-haven state, I'd never recommend it to them), so I can't go rigging the game for tons of bloodpoints via SWF of my own. I have to play solo survivor and be weak as the balance intended, or I have to deal with permanent SWF issues as a killer, and I can't change to a new killer since i never have enough bloodpoints to get them to a level where they won't be guaranteed to lose due to no perks and no items.
Also if you go to the steam suggestions board for DBD, you'll see it is literally more active than this forum's suggestion / feedback areas. If it truly is getting ignored (which I believe it is, based on seeing it for a long time), then it needs to be shut down / have an official pinned thread saying where to go to actually stand a chance at being heard.
I can't say what will fix SWF, and sure I understand that maybe opt-out would be a bad option, but I think the very least that could be done whilst a long-term solution is found is stop killers deranking if they go against SWF (You already merge lobbies into one where the killer is host, which is why the game has issues with retaining SWF after a game, so surely you can tell the lobby if it's bringing in multiple clients and thus deny killer derank). If you see the steam discussions boards then you know it's an issue people have all the time, but everyone who mentions it on the steam discussions feels ignored about it.
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"spectating players delay isn't going to fix anything."
A delay for spectating players isn't going to fix
anythingeverything."The core advantages of SWF stem from what you can do whilst alive. You can tell other players if the killer comes for them when they leave you on the hook, if they orbit the hook, which generators they're checking, you can tell people to pick up your almost-done generators as you lead the killer away, you can ensure people are in wait so you intentionally go down on pallets with survivors waiting nearby to drop them. In short, so many things that solo survivors would literally never or almost never have the info to do."
I completely agree that most of the advantages, while playing the Survive With Friends mode (specifically with voice comms), stem from what that group can accomplish while they are still alive.
The idea to add a delay for spectating survivors would prevent intentional sacrifices and disconnects from allowing those players to share up-to-date information with anyone (in their group) that is still alive. I know that idea wouldn't prevent all of the advantages of using voice comms, but I hope that now you might agree that it would help in certain situations. In my experience, those situations do still exist. For example, a Survive With Friends group that only consists of two players couldn't share reliable (up-to-date) information that they gathered while spectating anymore. If one of them were to be sacrificed, killed, or disconnected any information they share, beyond that point, would be almost completely useless.
"I don't have friends with DBD (and in the current SWF-haven state, I'd never recommend it to them)"
It makes me sad to see you post this. If could, I'd force my friends to give this game a chance.
"I have to play solo survivor and be weak as the balance intended, or I have to deal with permanent SWF issues as a killer"
I'm not sure if you've considered this or not, but if Survive With Friends groups are as common as you say, wouldn't it be fairly likely that you get matched with partial Survive With Friends groups often?
"I can't change to a new killer since i never have enough bloodpoints to get them to a level where they won't be guaranteed to lose due to no perks and no items."
Given enough time played, you will eventually be able to change to a new killer and have tons of perks and items. Don't get me wrong, it's going to or will take quite some time.
Side note: I'm not saying I never try different add-ons, but I don't like to use add-ons when I'm playing as a killer. I don't know why exactly. Maybe it's an extra challenge that I end up placing on myself (for no good reason) or I just like using the base kits. I'm not really sure. 😅
"... have an official pinned thread saying where to go to actually stand a chance at being heard."
I think having more reminders to come and share your thoughts and feelings about the current state of Dead by Daylight (on the official forums), outside of posts concerning PTB testing information and new content, would be quite nice to have. Keep in mind, you can't force people to participate despite how many times you encourage them to do so.
"You already merge lobbies into one where the killer is host, which is why the game has issues with retaining SWF after a game, so surely you can tell the lobby if it's bringing in multiple clients..."
This is really interesting. Maybe this is something BHVR could tweak after they implement the dedicated servers and all goes well on that front.
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*message disappeared then reappeared after I retyped below*
Post edited by Traslogan on0 -
Well I wrote a big long post but it seemed to delete itself and save a blank draft so gg.
I can agree that yeah, fixing spectating players would help some things, it would likely be a complimentary addition around other potential solutions.
Yeah you find partial-SWF as a solo survivor here on UK/EU servers, but I don't think it does anything for the solo survivor's experience. In the end if the killer finds you, you're not going to get any help from them outside of whatever you would usually get, though perhaps more generators will pop up faster than usual. Solo survivor is still a total meme of "everyone quits because they got hit too early, now you get demoted if you can't 2v1 the killer"
Obviously you can't nerf survivors just for being SWF, but I think the focus has to be on incentivizing it to be worth playing as a killer. Perhaps if you're red-ranked you want the added challenge of SWF-comms, but when you want to learn killers, you haven't unlocked core meta perks, or you're just not top 5%, it really detracts from the fun, especially at the consistent rate of encountering SWF almost all the time here (I'm going to guess that EU server players are disproportionately playing SWF more than on US servers)
Literally the only reason I made a forum account here was because I, like many others, was shouting at a brick wall in the form of the steam suggestions board for DBD, until someone finally comes along and goes "lol yeah no one official ever checks this" and you can see that's true by looking at page after page of posts that are ultimately players that have devolved into bickering amongst themselves because there's no moderation nor official input to address anything they say, most pages of the steam suggestions is a loop of the previous one, just a week prior and still never getting good answers.
I want DBD to get better, and I think atm to me as a current player that means trying to ensure that constant SWF teams isn't something that makes me just want to quit as killer.
Post edited by Traslogan on1 -
Check the survival rates!
Even with 4SWF the death ratio is still below 50%,but I guess 2 kills isn't enough for you people!
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Disagree this game its no longer survivor favor if you have some problems getting the survivor its youre own fault
Post edited by Tru3Lemon on0 -
2 kills won't stop a derank when SWF communicate to find Hex Ruin and then get all 5 gens and they have 3 insta-medkits every time and every single person has MoM, Dead Hard and Decisive Strike and often Adrenaline. The killer needs to literally let everyone go time and time again, let them all heal up again and again, get hit after hit after hit on every person, and then somehow still not let all gens pop and get 2-3 kills (Where everyone is hooked at least twice) to prevent derank. Somehow you are meant to do this against communicating-SWF who all have Dead Hard, Adrenaline, MoM, and Decisive Strike, and they bring as many instaheal medkits as possible and usually the designated obsession has a well-equipped flashlight for guaranteed stunning every pallet just to waste as much time as possible whilst they tell their friends what gens are safe to do.
And Lemon, the game is like an incomplete rock-paper-scissors:
Killer beats Solo Survivor, comms-SWF beats killer, nothing beats comms-SWF.
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The truth is a group of survivor (not even skilled that much) have perfect communication. They dont run all at once for unhooking, they cooperate thousand time more efficiently, they loop extremely bad, they flashlight save more often and no matter how killer tries to succeed, there's absolutely no fun for him because of perfect coordination of survivors. At the same time, removing SWF is a no deal because a lot of survs are playing with friends. I think groups of 3/4 survs should be disabled or killer should be given massive bonus to bloodpoints to compensate lack of possibilities of gaining them during a match.
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I think a sensible start is no killer deranks if there is SWF present. From there it's possible to look at long-term things like issues of spectator delay, SWF who d/c because they don't care about deranking due to how fast they can regain it, and incentivizing SWF for killers so there is actually some fun or at least it's bearable to go against such bad odds.
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At the very least make sure SWF groups are matched with a Killer of the same rank as the highest SWF member.
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It's true, I see a lot of single rank-5 survivors carrying rank 10-15 SWF friends as a Rank 10-12 killer.
Today is another day of pure SWF, literally can't get a random for 3 minutes and then full 4-man-SWF appears every time. There's nothing left of DBD but this on whatever servers my lobby is going to.
Post edited by Traslogan on0 -
Agreed, I'm not even playing with friends and all of yesterday I was matched with lvl 18-20's. I felt so bad at the end when I saw. Usually the matches are fair, but when this happens with friend groups the killers usually don't stand a chance. Course it also kills the survivors game because they start getting lazy and when they're matched with someone their level they get creamed. XD
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Pretty sure the points for the multi hooks were an attempt to dissuade killers from camping to make the game more fun for survivors. Being the first survivor found, usually within the first 20 seconds of the game, basically means you haven't had a lot of time to start a gen, or earn any points. This has more to do with luck than skill. It's happened to me dozens of times, sometimes multiple games in a row, and it can be frustrating. If your this first person getting caught and the killer face camps you, you're most likely losing a pip, and you didn't even get to play really. The points are an incentive to send killers after the other survivors, making it more about the skill of hunting them down then standing there and face camping them. Giving the first hooked survivor a chance to re-join the game and earn points. Also most survivors know that when a killer is face camping like that, all they need to do is forget rescuing them and work on gens for an easy escape. The hooked survivors job is literally to live for as long as possible, to keep the killer from going after everyone else while they work on gens. What would you suggest as a replacement incentive to keep killers from Face Camping survivors like this and ruining the game for them? After all the ratio is 4 to 1, and the game is in desperate need of more survivors to lower lobby wait times. But it does have to be fun for everyone. What's a good way to re-balance it to keep it fun on both sides? ( Serious question, just realized this is the internet and there is not tone of voice. :) I really want to know. ^.^
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You had me at 4 killers XD.
OMG, that would be EPIC! XD
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Whilst the killer does need incentive not to facecamp, remember they take solid pip loss from being in the general vicinity of hooked survivors (Which means even just going to attack someone in a chase can cause a loss of the pip over a surprisingly short time).
And SWF generally just d/c if they aren't going to rank up because they know they can just play more SWF and get it back when they rig even more games. They're more concerned with denying the killer the ability to play.
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still as usual, I get no one, not even a single solo survivor, in my lobbies. It's like the game intentionally waits for SWF. Somehow the game wants me to believe there isn't even a single survivor it could find at plus or minus 6 ranks of rank 10 (We all know it will gladly put a rank 4 or 16 in a rank 10 killer game), it's not even like one or two solo players come in and then quit, literally none appear... There's nothing left of DBD but this on the UK/EU servers.
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And yet killers still face camp. You must have a really negative outlook on people to think the Survivors are all horrible like that. Survivors don't care about ruining anyone's day. Though there are some cheaters in the world who don't care about others feelings. The majority of survivors aren't like that. They just want to be good. I can think of nothing more awesome than building a team to compete in Dead By Daylight regularly. All survivors want is to have fun playing, just like the killers, only they have different and opposing objectives. There's no point in playing a game if you're not having fun, and what's more fun than gaming with friends? You seriously want to take the 'Multi-Player' out of this Multi Player game? They already took away mics, and if they take away the ability to game with our friends it would defeat the purpose for many survivors. Lot's of them made their friend in Dead by Daylight. Take that away and they'll go find another game and everyone in the game will suffer for it. Rather than taking away an awesome aspect of the game because it's fun for one person and can 'Possibly' be difficult for another, why not just add in another awesome element like 'Kill with your friend' Multiple killers, and a few more survivors. Groups of four killers and 10 survivors? 12? Larger maps. You don't need to ruin a game for someone else because they might 'possibly' have an advantage. I say 'possibly' because I play worse almost every time I play survive with friends. Being in a group might help you communicate better, but it can also be distracting. It doesn't always mean you play better. Half the time I play way worse when I'm in a group, which is why I usually play solo. Also, Wouldn't you rather be able to hone your skills by going up against better players rather than trying to make other players worse so you can beat them with ease?
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Clearly you're not reading the past 2 pages of stuff where we've said we aren't advocating for removing SWF. You're just derailing the argument.
So far the only arguments against countering comms-SWF are:
1: Lol git gud I don't want SWF countered
2: Derail the thread by ignoring the arguments.
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dude, I've been playing solo all week and I've been being put into games with killers 18-20 when I'm lvl 12. It's not always SWF, something is broken in the ranking system in means of putting you in a group with people your lvl.
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I already said previously I check for SWF because it's so common. I didn't say "I see a high rank and thus I believe it's SWF".
Once again just misinterpreting the entire thread.
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The one dude who advocated for removing SWF was shot down even by me. We said it immensely changes the balance and stops it being fun for a killer. Literally SWF players have come in and agreed when the other SWF players aren't flaming.
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Hmm. I missed that. In that case yeah, that also needs to be fixed, maybe by putting them in with a killer who's the same rank as their highest member. ^.^
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I have agreed too, on many points. I just don't think it should be taken out. I think the KWF idea is the best one I've read so far. Also I'm half asleep so if this makes no sense I apologize. :)
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I think it's unrelated to the fact that SWF rigging is a huge issue and we don't even have anything as simple as safety from deranking if we go against SWF teams that are communicating to give a massive advantage.
The "not all SWF teams are pro" argument doesn't really do much to counter that either. Being pro isn't even immensely relevant if they actually use their microphones.
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I understand survivors want to have fun, but as a killer main I want to have fun too. It's not like I'm saying "ugh good survivors who get generators only to 99% to increase your patrol are a bad thing", but I am saying that SWF is breaking the game, especially here on whatever servers I'm on where it's as good as 99% SWF (As I said earlier, I often don't even see a single solo survivor at all and then 5-10 minutes pass and it just throws yet another 4-man SWF at me)
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@Traslogan you're talking about a subset (tryhard "SWAT Team" 4-man SWF) of a subset (4-man SWF) of a subset (SWF in general) here. Balancing the game around survivors doing this is the same as balancing the game around every killer being a top 1% skill omegablink + ebony mori nurse, it either screws everyone that plays the game in other ways or forces them to play in that exact way as well to stay competitive.
You can argue that voice communication offers a huge advantage (which it does) without referring to superspecific cases like you're doing, but at the same time "bribes" like bonus BP or the often mentioned buff solo survivors -> buff killers approach is the best you can hope for. Removing SWF or trying to block voice comms would be completely absurd of the developers to do this far into the life of the game.
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We've already said we're against removing SWF and trying to block voice comms...In this very thread...
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Perhaps SWF teams should be matched with slightly-fairly higher ranks to offset this? idk.
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There is 90 page post in steam forums about SWF and devs ignored it. Im not saying its useless to make more posts about the subject, but its kinda clear devs dont want to deal with it.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/1480982338956455265/
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Posted something in the wrong tab and can't delete it, so here's some filler text.
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I think tighter ranking with SWF would help a little, but it wouldn't return the balance overall. The ranking system is a tedious at best imo, given that if you take a break at the right time you can basically be a smurf from rank-reset a fortnight after the reset happened. It's tough to gauge the validity of a rank versus the skill it implies.
And yeah no one from the DBD team looks at the steam discussions at all. I've already said they should delete it and just put 1 sticky thread up saying they were ignoring it and that they should come to the forums, since the DBD steam discussions is actually more active than the forums themselves.
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Another night, another evening of being literally unable to find anything but 4-man SWF and 3-man SWF. Honest to god I just want a night where most of the games aren't blatantly rigged. The game even staggers the load-in of the SWF teams so it looks less like it's SWF, people load in 6s later and you just check to confirm they're all steam friends anyway, especially the one who sets themselves to offline and private because they know they're rigging the game and want to hide it.
Do devs ever actually respond to these feedback posts? I Know they fully 100% pretend they never put a suggestions board on steam, but apparently they read this but never replied.
Edit: Finally got a single game with 4 randoms. So DBD decided to be its usual buggy self and be unable to load. I'm about done with this mess of a game tbh. Literal 30 minute waits to get a fair game and the game is too buggy to load anyway.
What's gonna happen when the devs run out of costumes to spam as microtransactions and DLCs to spam out? Will this stuff even get fixed then? 3 years of things like ongoing vanilla loading bugs tells me this game is probably never going to get fixed, only a few select things get fixed and now it's nothing but microtransactions-factory and rigged games, and since that's now the lifeblood I think the devs will never do anything.
Incase the devs read / load the page again, you should shut down your steam discussions, since you literally ignore them when they are more active than your forum's feedback section.
Post edited by Traslogan on0 -
@Traslogan Stop cherry picking your matches so much.. relax and just have some fun.
Who cares if you get a tryhard group of SWF.
You don't always have to play the same way... Just saying.
Unorthodox methods might yield surprising results. Experiment with those groups and have some fun doing it.. who the bleep cares if you win or lose... seriously.
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Two words: ebony mori.
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I don't need to win to have fun, but as I've said, in all honesty here in the UK I get bordering on exclusively SWF. I just want the intended balance. It's as if I'm secretly tagged serverside to be preferred for SWF or something.
If I don't cherry-pick, I just get tryhard SWF and more tryhard SWF. If I lose to solos, then so be it, but at least I'd have some fun doing it and we might all get a decent handful of bloodpoints. As I've said, the catch is I'm effectively never getting solo survivors.
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Well my comment mysteriously vanished again. Top tier forums.
Why do you assume I play the same way? I've tried multiple strategies as the killers I play, I can't afford new killers due to how insanely often I get SWF rigging my games (And I can't play low-level killers since I'm still a rank 9 killer who will get wiped out by SWF who will find it even easier than ever before).
And yeah I care if I get a tryhard group of SWF because IT IS ALL THE TIME. I am trying to enjoy the game but it is blatantly rigged, and the devs clearly have no intention of doing anything about it. Game after game after game I can't do a thing because SWF come along. It is ruining the entire game for someone who just wants a fair and balanced game. There is an intended balance and SWF 100% overrides it.
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4 man SWF makes up only about 5% while 3 man only makes up about 10% and 4 man SWFs only have a 10% higher survival rate on average. If you got to a rank and suddenly are having problems it's not because everyone you're playing against is SWF, it's because you've started matching against people who are simply better than you.
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Couple of things:
1: I check for SWF. I confirm that 95% of all my games are SWF. I can go 30 lobbies without a random. I've heard the stats, I don't believe them, they might be global but in the EU servers that's so far from the truth. From the UK, it's SWF and almost nothing else. To emphasise: I literally confirm definite SWF teams. I'm not moaning about a rarity, I'm moaning about the fact that it is literally all that is left on the EU side of this game.
2: It's been this way since about rank 15. It's not a sudden "oh my god I ranked up and now everyone's good and I haven't adjusted". I adjusted my playstyle as I ranked up to be more aggressive, take perks to bring chases down asap, etc. It still does not stop SWF.
Tonight is another night of nothing but SWF. After more than 70 lobbies, I've found ONE SINGLE non-4-man-SWF. ONE. The stats are outdated or total #########. There is no point playing killer anymore unless you're explicitly the literal best of the best and play Nurse or Hillbilly.
Post edited by Traslogan on0 -
If the stats are still true, then why the hell do I get 99% SWF. I think the stats are fake or hilariously out-dated.
I just want to play this apparent version of DBD you all claim to be playing where SWF is actually really rare and not literally everywhere.
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on ps4 theres bnb party chat but no text chatat end game like pc,idm as a killer because i tunnel groups and face camp to pissem off
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Face camping is pointless against SWF. They tell their friends you are camping, so they know to split up and do 3 gens. If you run away, they tell their friends who you are running to for advanced warning and so someone can immediately begin running to them asap.
The stats on SWF frequency are total BS imo. Devs need to switch a VPN over to the UK and play around rank 8-15 and see how bad the SWF problem is.
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Trying to learn a new killer since the shape is literally obsolete as a character against SWF. Can't because it's nothing but SWF no matter what I do, and I can't even get a single thing done. I'm rank 9 and going up against rank-4 SWFs!
Honestly ######### this game. Matchmaking is broken, SWF has wiped out the balance (and because it isn't happening worldwide, devs don't care), the perk system is just about 8 perks and the rest is obsolete. Devs are going to leave it in this state until they run out of DLC and microtransactions to throw on top of them.
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Wow... You've taken the forum whining to a whole new level here.
You know what everyone else does, that wants to play this game?
They play the game. Be like everyone else and learn to accept it, cause it ain't going anywhere.
In fact if you watched the anniversary stream, they are making it allot easier for people to party up and stay together in their groups.
Anyways.. have fun... or at least learn to have fun. SWF really isn't the end of the world in this game, accept the challenge otherwise you'll just end up hating this game cause it will never be what you want.
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What can I say, the devs give no response anywhere as far as I can tell. Their steam suggestions board is just up to draw flak away, and it's more active than any part of this forum by miles.
imo if they're just going to keep going pro-SWF then the game is ultimately going to die. It's already hypermonetized with DLC and premium currency, and clearly as long as you get 3 other people to buy the game with you, that's all it takes for the devs to look away when what little balance there is dissolves.
They're still claiming SWF is in the minority, but it's clearly a lie. Literal 95% of my games are SWF. It's no longer a playable game.
Post edited by Traslogan on0 -
Every game, SWF. SWF. SWF. I don't play Nurse because hey turns out I don't think its worth ever buying DBD DLC again, so I can't just mitigate every obstacle on a map and beat SWF to a pulp. Most of the core meta is in DLC too, pure coincidence I'm sure.
Devs, you've read this post, why lie about the SWF stats? They're 95%+ of all games, and nothing is being done about how absurdly you've let that break the game. Killers are absurdly unbalanced, 90% of your perk system is obsolete because you made a few god-tier perks that everyone takes now, and there's no point playing killer because you're just a pinata for SWF teams. People have said already, there's 80-page threads about how unbalanced SWF is on your permanently-ignored steam suggestions board.
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SWF is wrecking the game for killers, why am I playing against survivors 9 and 10 ranks higher than me? Put them in with red-ranked killers.
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This game is 100% oriented towards being explicitly pro-SWF now. When they run out of licenses for DLC, the game is probably just dead since it won't get fixed.
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Nothing but SWF groups gaming the system again tonight, tell me is rank 14 vs rank 2 the intended result of the matchmaking?
.
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No dev response yet?... I wonder why.. LOL.
Maybe they will show you some pity and acknowledge you soon.
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Some of the responses here are so funny lmao. Voice chat doesn't ruin the game, and it's not an "exploit." What the game needs is a ranked/unranked mode distinction, and to queue all SWF games into the unranked mode, leaving ranked as a solo queue mode.
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