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Spirit should be nerfed .
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i won't have an opportunity to show you any skill if you're playing spirit because my individual skill means nothing against that killer. that's been the point the whole time
why would i tag you/care if you see my response
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Yup, just another entitled survivor main who misses multiple vacuum pallets with infinite window loops and the old DS.
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Don't you think its a little silly that you have to have equipped a perk to counter her before knowing who the killer even is?
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@ScottJund I want to know what your opinion on this is, I mean Spirit in general, and not her prayer beads.
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She is very strong without being overpowered. In a chase, there is little a survivor can do to counter a good Spirit in the same way there's little a survivor can do to counter a good Nurse. Once the survivor is injured and they don't have Iron Will, they're dead.
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@ScottJund I agree.
Also, what do you think of the Iron will and Spine chill combo vs a Spirit? I can demolish them using that.
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Iron Will / sounds being broken atm definitely wreck her a lot, but then you're also just bringing in two perks to counter a supposed Spirit every game. (Not that Iron Will is bad)
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@ScottJund the combo hard counters Nurse also. Since she looks at you when she blinks at you, so prediction blinks are impossible against a good survivor since they make no noise, and when you try to prediction blink, they can turn around once the spine chill lights up. It's actually why I run it, hard countering the two best killers is worth it. Also, Iron will is good in general since I don't run Self care.
You should try it, if you face Nurse and Spirit a lot.
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If she does not actually make the grass move then that's a mistake on my part, I remembered seeing the grass move the last time I went against her which is why I said that.
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Wow, they sure did tear you a new one to the point to where you had to call a fictional character braindead. Yikes. @miaasma
Anyway, in all seriousness, Spirit is perfectly fine. I'm not going to go into detail about it as i am sure all the other people who have played Spirit or main her to mains have pretty much said what we are all thinking. So thank you, especially to @vampire_toothy who seems to understand exactly how mechanics in the game works, and for totally dominating this debate.
Also, this forum is not filled with killer mains, i play survivor more than i do killer, @ScottJund i know plays survivor on some occasions my fellow Detective Tapp main @NMCKE plays survivor, the only person i know for a fact that only plays killer is TheEntityLefthand. This whole generalization of the whole forum being biased to one side is a complete and utter lie, and shows that those who make such a claim probably spend too much time watching their favorite survivor main streamer.
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when detective_jonathan vouches for you you know you've made it
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iron will is a great perk, it's just boring and doesn't suit my playstyle. i also just reject the idea that i should need to run a perk in order to have a chance against a good player on a specific killer. i think you understand this despite many being unable to
people just become very defensive when you point out a flaw in the design of a killer they like. try telling someone who only plays 3 blink nurse the sort of wheelchair they're placing themselves in and they exhibit the same sort of behaviour. not that i'm suggesting spirit's base kit is anywhere near as stupid as 3 blink nurse (or nurse's base kit for that matter), but the parallels are there
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I feel so bad for you lol. I know you're a great player and oh lord you are not in the right place to be talking about a killer having no consistent counter.
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it's not a problem, i didn't come here posting negatively about a fan-favourite killer expecting anything but downvotes and vitriol lol
i mean i've said some extreme stuff but the bottom line for me is that survivors have no real options against a spirit mid-chase if they aren't running specific perks and that's a problem. that's really all i came here to communicate. i don't think a nerf is the answer like the OP does, i just have mixed feelings about the killer's design
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@ScottJund Iron Will is a pretty good perk to having against ANY killer. I track survivors movements based on sound a lot of the time whether it be injured sounds, footsteps, grass rustling, or corn moving. Whether you’re playing Spirit or Trapper not making sounds can really disorient a killer.
Spine Chill is also great against stealth killers like Myers or Wraith. I don’t personally use it but it has it’s purpose.
It’s not only useful against Spirit is the point I’m trying to get across.
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i don't think anyone's denying that iron will is a good perk, they're (myself included) taking issue with the premise that a perk is needed to counter a killer. i personally find iron will boring to run and it doesn't suit my playstyle, and i should be able to outplay a killer without it
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I agree Iron Will is a great perk regardless. My point is, you shouldn't really balance a killer around being countered by a specific perk.
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@vampire_toothy Grass definitely moves. Because I’ve tracked survivors that way by when grass or corn moves.
As a survivor I’ve heard her loud ass footsteps behind me when she was phase walking. That’s one way I knew she was coming when she had Prayer Beads. Prayer Beads are still an idiotic add-on though.
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He meant the grass doesn't move due to the Spirit phasing over it.
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@ScottJund You always have a warning when Spirit is coming toward you, similar to Huntress. The loud vacuum sound gives a survivor a chance of escaping the area. Unless she has Prayer Beads, which we all know are stupid add-ons.
Without perks, Spirit doesn’t have much of a counter rather then hope she can’t hear that well and she messes up her phase walk. It’s pretty much a prediction. It’s similar to Nurse, without perks you aren’t countering a Nurse. I’d argue that you can’t counter a Hag without a flashlight. You can’t counter those three killers without perks simply because you can’t waste their time by pallet looping.
Just because she is strong doesn’t mean she needs any changes though.
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Holy crap guys, look! He has 114 vote downs, I think that's record or something.
Also, if we nerf Spirit, the only killer ever in Red Rank is Nurse, and we see her WAY too much already. Main reason people depip on purpose.
Post edited by TheGameZpro3 on1 -
hag has counterplay, let her trap the loop while you run to the next tile. a good hag is extremely strong but she has at least a modicum of counterplay no matter how much of a slog she is to play against. hag's main strength is her map control and ability to apply pressure, while spirit excels in chases and suffers with regards to map control
it seems you agree that spirit doesn't have much counterplay outside of perks. what made you take such issue with my posts further back?
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@miaasma Hags main strength is her snowball. Best of all killers. Her pressure and control are also the best of all the killers, but not what makes her shine so much.
Hag also has joint chasing with Nurse.
She's like best in 3 more strengths as well, it's why she completely overshadows Billy.
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A good Spirit has very little counterplay during chases if you don't take perks into account.
Are her shortcomings enough to balance that out? Who knows. All I know is that she's definitely not Nurse tier of a problem right now, and in our current gamestate nerfing any killer but Nurse is not a good idea.
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well her snowballing is directly related to her map control imo
she applies more hook pressure than any other killer. even if you don't trap hooks (i don't) people will waste time crouching to get unhooks
she's good in chases but trapping loops doesn't necessarily get you downs, it just potentially forces survivors into compromising positions if done correctly. people who know to run away when you trap a loop will keep you running for a while unless you manage to zone them into an area you already have traps in
i think she overshadows billy against good players
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@miaasma her web gets her downs. If your trapping is good, you don't need to place any.
Also just trapping loops is just ONE style as Hag. I trap routes, and chase just as well. She has various different playstyles. Not all Hags care about loops. A route Hag can easily apply healing pressure with Thanatophobia since people always run into your traps constantly.
A chokepoint Hag can easily apply map pressure.
But yeah, she's strong in chases. Same as Nurse in speed.
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@miaasma I think it was a misunderstanding. I’m willing to forgive and forget. No need for us to be ugly to each other.
Hag is not able to be looped if played properly. Her snowball effect is insane. @Poweas is able to tell you more than I could.
Nurse has zero counterplay outside of perks. All you can do it bop and weave and 360 and hope she screws up. You’ll die if she is good.
Spirit you have to not fall for her mindgames and not STAY at pallet loops and hope she screws up. Her power has a recharge so she isn’t as threatening as Nurse.
All three of these killers are so good because they don’t have to waste time with pallet loops. They are general considered three of the best killers specifically Nurse. There is nothing you can really do against them if the player is really good.
I just don’t see the need in reworking them though. You are not totally helpless against them. They are three of the four very strong killers. There is 15 killers in the game, how often do you really get a Spirit or Nurse. I rarely get Spirits and I play on console so Nurse is a rarity :/
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@MegMain98 the closest to Nurse if not for flashlights is probably Hag. Better map pressure and equal chase potential. :P But flashlights make Hag suffer to 3rd.
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my experience both playing hag and playing against competent hags is that they use a mix of placing traps as they run around and place traps at loops in order to zone people into those traps. a good hag can't really be looped but hag is slow and if you know not to stay in any one place for long she can be reliably played against
my issue with spirit is that whether or not you fall for her "mindgames" isn't really up to you, it's just up to how good the spirit player is
when i think mindgame, i think of a high wall pallet loop where the survivor can't directly see the killer and needs to predict based on tells (red stain, moonwalking) where the killer is going to be. if they predict correctly they get a loop out of it, if they predict incorrectly they run into the killer and get hit. what makes this a mindgame is that both players have to work to outplay each other
when a survivor is being chased by a spirit at a loop, she has plenty of tells to just react to; she can stand still and observe the survivor until they either run towards her (at which point she just moves and hits them) or away from the loop (at which point she uses her power and uses audio-visual cues to locate them). on the survivor's side, you have to effectively guess at what she's doing because you can't know whether she's using her power. that for me is where it stops being a mindgame and just becomes a guessing game. it becomes even worse when you're injured and the spirit just echolocates you while you try to move unpredictably
i think that's where we differentiate; you kind of are helpless against a good spirit, similarly to how you're helpless against a good nurse. i play on PC so nurses are everywhere and with the addons they have they don't need to be any good to be a waste of time to play against. spirit isn't as bad but in a sense is more frustrating because nurse at least can be mindgamed slightly by breaking line of sight and making her over-blink. the problems people have with nurse apply to spirit, just to a lesser degree because she is overall nowhere near as strong as nurse (no one is)
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@Poweas If the Hag has Mint Rag then I’d agree she is as good as Nurse or Spirit but she can’t teleport EVERYWHERE on the map. I think it’s 32 meters?
With Mint Rag/Rusty Shackles/Make Your Choice there is literally nothing survivors can do against her. If you unhook, you’re next on the hook. Or either let your teammates die. It’s a lose-lose. That build I believe is probably the strongest build in the game. Omega Blink Nurse and Prayer Beads Spirit are probably next.
It’s honestly a toss up between Spirit and Hag but I’ll give it to Spirit probably. Although I wouldn’t argue somebody putting Hag over Spirit on a tier list.
I don’t even think flashlights are that big of a deal unless every single survivor brings in a purple flashlight.
I honestly believe survivor panic more when it is a Spirit or Nurse than they do a Hag.
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Exactly. No other killer has unconditional chase power and map pressure. I'm pretty sure no killer should either lol
The more I play this game the more I'm convinced no killer can be competitive at high ranks without map pressure, no matter how overloaded their design is otherwise.That's the common link between the undisputable top 4 killers.
Edit: and getting downs quickly is important too, but to be honest I think map pressure is even more important. Very few killers are able to see that a chase isn't worth the time anymore and move to a higher priority threat quickly.
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@miaasma Spirit certainly has the advantage in a chase as does Nurse, but shouldn’t it be that way? We’re so used to killers like Pig, Leatherface, and Freddy being lower tier and easy to loop. I can loop poor Leatherface for five gens on Asylum but the moment I go against a Spirit I know I can’t do that as easily. The killer should have the power role in a chase.
I believe Spirit is balanced because she is very strong at chases and loops and has the power role, but if she screws up she has to wait for her power to regenerated and she is reduced to a 110% MS killer.
If the Spirit is very good, you’ll probably die...same with Nurse. If you have a coordinated team then ANY killer will struggle except Nurse who really just does not care about anything.
She has audio cues to where you are like your injured sounds, footsteps, grass/corn moving but she has to have that to make her power useful. As a survivor you also have a cue that she is on the way. If you just stare her in the face at a pallet loop she’ll shove her giant katana up your ass.
I agree that she has little counterplay outside of perks, but she’s still balanced. Killers should have more of a power role in a chase, not survivors. You have four wild animals running around and you have to be the zookeeper to put them back in their cage.
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One thing people are ignoring...
Stealth really hurts Spirit. Being slow means she can't search every nook and cranny in every area, and if you never give away your position via crows or scratchmarks it is really hard for her to find you.
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The way I look at Spirit is that her power is that when her power is used (not counting standing still which I'll get to in a bit), she isn't really all that different than a killer at let's say a jungle gym apart from the fact that she is a lot faster and that she doesn't need to change which direction she looks to mask her red stain. When I think of Spirit it's basically that she effectively turns every reasonable loop into a high wall loop as the survivor cannot see her position which is why I call her power a mindgame rather than a guessing game as generally the same opportunities exist especially if you have a window to use.
That being said, I think the only time her power is actually a guessing game is only when Spirit stands still or vaults a window (as her window vault animation is that she disappears and reappears at the other side). However, standing still at the very least for the time being can be countered by using a flashlight on her husk which destroys similar to how you can flashlight burn Wraith & Nurse or destroy Hag's traps. I do think that standing still is a little silly if you aren't running perks or items and although I do not think Spirit needs any changes apart from with some addons it probably wouldn't be the end of the world if there was an indication that she was standing still and wasn't using her power for an extended period of time.
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@MegMain98 i think people overblow how "weak" the weaker killers are. you cannot currently run a competent killer for 5 gens, regardless of the killer, on any map, period. sure, you can infinite a killer through the asylum, but no good killer is going to just chase you through that horrible place and waste all that time. bad map design hurts the weakest killers, so the best way to deal with such map-related issues is to just sidestep them until they get addressed. a good killer player on the weakest killer will choose their chases more carefully and not chase through strong setups and structures unless they can afford to by already being in the lead
in my opinion "if X killer is good, you're screwed regardless of individual skill" isn't a healthy attitude towards balance. i agree that spirit should have the upper hand in survivor-killer interactions, which is why i'm not on board with nerfing her. i'm just not a fan of the immense disparity in information that both sides have to work with, and i wish survivors had more input during chases with her
i consider (addonless) billy to be the most balanced killer in the game; in the hands of a bad player he'll be looped into oblivion but in the hands of a good player he'll curve people around loops and predict window vaults and punish mistakes. and after all, all survivors make mistakes. i can run a bad or even mediocre billy for a very long time but an exceptionally good billy player (think zubatlel, quixoticgreen, battleguy or ryanpez. ScottJund himself plays a great billy and he's here in this thread) will have me on a hook very quickly if i don't have a very strong setup to work with because they're excellent at punishing missteps and get pallets thrown very quickly (or get downs very quickly)
i totally agree that killers should have the upper hand in chases; survivors are meant to go down eventually, but that requires that the killer actually outplay them, and when i get downed by a spirit i don't feel like i've been outplayed at all. i just feel like i lost the dice roll
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@miaasma Understandable you feel that way, but also know that Spirit is not the easiest killer to play either. She is slow, relies heavily on her power and mind games, and takes a while to learn. She isn’t as hard as Huntress or Nurse but still not very easy. When I get downed by a good Spirit or Nurse I can’t really complain because they have definitely practiced those killers a lot.
Weaker killers are just so easy to pallet loop. M1 killers don’t stand a chance against good survivors and almost every map released since Mother’s Dwelling has been awful. There are 20 safe pallets on the game map. Yamaoka is terrible. Ormond has invisible walls and the main structure can be an infinite. There are more bad maps than good maps. I’m really hoping Asylum is the next map they rework.
Ehh...Billy? I’d say Myers is the most balanced killer in the game. I also try to forget Billy exists because he’s just so damn boring to me XD.
I’ve seen Scott Jund’s killer gameplay, I watch his streams all the time. He is probably the best Huntress I’ve seen. He is also really good with Spirit, probably the person I’ve learn the most from when it comes to general killer gameplay. He can definitely show anybody how strong Spirit can be.
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I think you mean Myers has the most balanced add ons, where they aren't too op, but not too weak either. Myers is a mid tier killer and one thing he lacks is map control. That's why Billy is considered the most balanced killer in the game as he has map control, chase potential, and a useful ability. If myers had map control then he would be a high tier killer and probably be the most balanced killer in add ons and a killer as a whole.
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Can Spirit without add-ons catch up to a survivor in a chase?
If I hit a survivor, then phase to chase after them and get the second hit, when I get out of phase they always seem to still be well out of range. It's also possible I'm just not phasing quickly enough after the successful attack cooldown finishes, but I don't know. Every video I watch of other people playing Spirit, they use add-ons, so I don't have a comparison. I'm really curious about this, though.
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Short answer : Yes she can
Long answer : Spirit takes around 1.5 seconds to charge her power without addons and then moves at 176% (7.04 m/s) for up to 5 seconds and additionally gets a brief speed boost for a split second after her power ends.
This means that you lose 1.5 seconds of movement (which means you would've moved 6.6 meters while the survivor would've moved 6 meters) but in return you can move 35.2 meters with your power. So in those 6.5 seconds you gain 28.6 meters which is the exact same distance you would've gained by not using your power at all so far, however keep in mind that this does not include the very brief speed burst you get out of coming out of her power which can give you a slightly longer lunge than normal without any addons that change her reappearance time & speed.
Edit : I forgot to include the distance survivors gain for comparison. In those 6.5 seconds the survivor would've moved 26 meters meaning that with or without your power you would've caught up to them in roughly the same amount of time.
What this also means is that you don't want to use her power in the middle of nowhere as there isn't much of a point to doing so but you will still catch up to a survivor, but obviously addons make her way better and makes it more worthwhile to use her power in more scenarios.
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@Redd if anything happens to prayer beeds it would need a full change because a nerf would make it completely useless it would not be slot worthy-----> a noise is a noise it doesnt matter if its "quiet" survivors will still no shes coming.... so it would have to be something else completely and very rare worthy or ultra rare because Fathers glasses isnt really worth ultra rare
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Thanks for the detailed answer. :) Very much appreciated. I always see people talking about using her power to get the second hit, but I struggle when using it to catch up in a chase. Between the the survivor's injured speed burst, Spirit's successful attack cooldown, and the phase activation charge time, it feels like there's this huge gap to make up for, but I guess that's just in-the-heat-of-the-moment perception.
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In my experience, assuming you don't have any increase to speed/duration/charge time, you can catch up to them if they run a straight line and you have no obstacles between you. If you have to move around anything, you won't catch up to them even if they have any kind of head start. You'll eventually develop a feel for it. I don't have hard numbers like another poster said, it's just my feelings after hundreds of hours on her.
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Yeah shorter sword. Who does she think she is having a light saber 😂😂😂
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@miaasma That's not what a mindgame is. If you have enough information to deduce the correct action for sure then it's a reaction. A mindgame has only 3 requirements:
A: Both players having unreliable information on each others next move
B: The other player having the ability to counter any given action you could reasonably take in the current situation
C: The other player not being able to counter all of your possible actions at the same time
When the spirit phases requirement A is always fulfilled. The spirit's body viably stops moving, this is unreliable information. And the survivors body disappears leaving you only with their last known location, also unreliable information. Scratchmarks are generally reliable but cleaver jukes can keep them from being totally reliable.
While B is not always fulfilled (for example if you are injured in the open) it often is for example if the Survivor is at a dropped pallet.
The reason why spirit is so good is because requirement C is nearly always fulfilled.
However ANY time all 3 requirements are met the action being taken is a mind game (or at least close enough to one mechanically)
More specifically it's a kind of mindgame refered to as WIFOM or Wine In Front Of Me, referencing the princess bride scene.
Here is the scene itself just for fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9TRMQwMNnY. Funnily enough it isn't an actual example.
a more detailed explaination of WIFOM: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM
That explaination is geared towards mafia. But a lot of the same ideas still apply here.
The TLDR is that: These kinds of predictions always SEEM random, and if they were against a computer then they very much could be. However in reality it comes down to psychology and patterns. You start by predicting a spirit based on what most spirits have done, and then switch to predicting based on what that specific spirit actually has done as you go through chases.
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NO. All killers that aren't spirit, billy, or nurse need to be buffed. Survivors are supposed to be the weak, numerous role. That is not the case, They are the power role. And this game is ######### because of it. And SWF.
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Also. Everyone who is trying to use perks here. Please just stop, it's really not helping. Miaasma is right about how you shouldn't need to always bring a perk just in case.
Yes I know Killers have that problem with SF + Enduring + Ruin, but it's a PROBLEM for a reason and isn't something we should make worse.
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All I know is Spirit herself is, in fact, balanced.
To say otherwise is just ignorance towards her mechanics.
Excluding add-ons, her power is very noticable. If you hear her hum, it may be a good call to run or at least hide. If you're eyeing each other down at a pallet, you either run, vault to the husk, or stay.
Just because she can get to point A to B quickly doesn't mean she needs nerfed.
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