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Spirit should be nerfed .
Comments
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I've never see so many people complaining about Spirit. Ironic because she is pretty hard to use, her power has time to recharge, she sounds loud, she's slow and well, she's about mind games (you can say what you want idc) and you have a price: you can down the survivor or lost him. That's normal. Not every Spirit main is 50/50. You actually need a brain to play with her. Just like Huntress. Win or loose, it's part of the game. It's just funny because you and these people here sound like "If i don't have control in this killer, then nerf!"
Y'all just think about themselfs, that's why the last killers are insecure to play. That's why everyone use Nurse and her boring playstile against good survivors. Thank god they won't nerf Spirit at the moment.
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@miaasma just saw this gem of a comment, and it's completely wrong and biased on your part.
people have convinced themselves that this constitutes a "mindgame" but you can't mindgame someone if they have no opportunity to react to anything. it's a guessing game and it's boring and the worst killer players find success with it
The mindgame bit, ok sure, that's fine. But the bit about worst killer players find success is offensive, untrue and blatantly shows your hatred.
Me, and other good Spirit players are NOT 'the worst killer players'. I can't tell if you're trying to annoy me or if you genuinely think that.
You're quite reasonable and you have some excellent points but that is a blatant lie. I can play any other killer and do well. I even played Huntress at rank 3 (the second highest skillcap to Spirit) and did well. I am far from 'the worst killer players'. And @MegMain98 is an amazing Plague.
I can even play Hag, another high skill cap and dominate. You should not spread that misinformation.
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see, where i think we're at right now is what we consider "fair" is different
in your given scenario, if survivors knew when she was using her power and did things like vaulting pallets or windows, she would have to actually predict survivors actions instead of just standing there and reacting to it. there'd be prediction on both sides instead of just survivors having to guess. it would be a fair playing field and would actually involve skill on both sides
people don't want this because they are used to spirit "outplaying" people by default. it wouldn't be fair in their mind because they would have to actually outplay someone
fyi, i've played less than 10 spirit games in total since her release. i just have a good pair of headphones and i know how good players use them from playing against them a lot. nurse is easier to win with but requires more practice to learn than spirit. winning with spirit requires no practice, just a basic understanding of her power
for the record, i'm not trying to dump on spirit mains. spirit is extremely fun to play. i just wish games against her were less of a dice roll, i hope that makes sense
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Falling for the spirit's mindgames makes her a "low skill" killer? You realize after nurse, spirit has the second highest skill cap in the game. Spirit is fine and needs the glass-breaking sound bug fixed, along with sounds so spirit can hear survivors again.
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the highest skillcap killer, by far, is huntress
nurse's skillcap is actually incredibly low. my first killer was nurse, it did not take me very long to climb up ranks with her, and with the addition of addons you're killing survivors who are much better than you at the game
moreover, by learning nurse you don't really learn the game at all. nurse doesn't really play dead by daylight. you can become a great nurse and still be awful at every other killer because of how much of a departure she is from how killer is typically played
i've already covered why i think spirit has a low skill cap, and it has a lot to do with the fact that much of it depends on your own audio setup and quality. i also covered why spirit's mindgames are not mindgames. you can read back for that
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@miaasma ok I see, left you a comment on ur wall btw.
I don't think standing still to see where they go is actually a viable strat. I see where you're coming from, but survivors can actually be really tricky and avoid it. I just had a game where I tried that only, and it didn't work on 2 of them, since they had tricky movement.
Also there is some counterplay, but it's in her favour yes. That's probably why she's so susceptible to genrush. I guess that's how she's balanced. If you pressure gens, she can't do much without Ruin (I don't use it btw, I like the survivors to have a chance). With Ruin, she's an easy killer. Idk, we don't seem to agree.
Also, Nurse definitely doesn't require more practice, since in 2 games, she was mastered by me. But then again, that comes back to natural talent with the killer like I easily mastered Nurse after becoming a PC killer, this thread is where I discussed it btw.
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So everyone now needs headphones and boom, 50/50 with Spirit?
I'm sorry, but she still requires skills. You don't have visual contact when you're phasing with Spirit, add ons are circunstancial things (in both sides, survivor and killer) and well, Iron Will stil exists and it's a option If Spirit is ruining your day. Just like people using OoO against Huntress, UE against Hag, Calm Spirit against Doctor and I seriously don't understand why the "perk argument" is invalid. We use perks to make our game, it's their function.
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Prayer beads are busted af, and collision should be removed while she is phasing. Besides that she is good
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the reason perks don't come into this discussion is because perks are not counterplay. i shouldn't have to run a specific perk just in case i run into a killer
additionally, the difference in the perks you mentioned is that you don't need perks to counter any of those killers. huntress, hag and doctor all have in-game counterplay. when people ask how you counter those killers, you can respond by telling them what to do, not what perks to run
spirit is hard countered by iron will, but without it she doesn't really need any sort of indication other than audio to find you when you're injured. and hitting you when you aren't injured isn't hard either for the aforementioned reasons (standing still to bait survivor movement, then responding to said movement, watching scratch marks, seeing grass move, etc.) my point is that i should be able to outplay a spirit in-game if i am not running a specific perk, and if the spirit is good and plays with her ears, i can't
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Not even going into the merit of her being balanced or not, the game needs MORE killers that have different counterplay than looping.
That ######### gets old, fast.
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I don't want to be that guy because I use to be very defensive also. He made a complaint, lets me civil. Don't go REEE and dumb ######### like that. You don't want people doing it to you than don't do it to them. Spirit is fine as is. She does have a lot of counter-play so you just need to learn how to play against her. You can't just loop her like every other killer. You have to outsmart her. Just like Nurse, in the field, you are most likely dead. In a house, t-wall, fenced in area, you can mind-game the ######### outta her.
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Spirit is pretty decent, and well balanced. Each side has a say in the chase, @NuclearBurrito explained this perfectly! I wished BHVR aimed more killers in Spirit's direction!
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I'm gonna have to disagree with this. I think Spirit actually has the second highest skill cap right behind Huntress. While of course some people will learn Spirit fast you also have to keep in mind that the game has been out for a pretty long while and that her power isn't about timing unlike Nurse or having a precise aim like in the case of Huntress, it's about being able to predict survivors in order to either catch up to them, get a direct hit and maybe get some scares with her grabs (without prayer beads).
Some people might learn her fast to a decent level like I said, however mastering her is very difficult because there are many tricks you can do with her and generally there is no way to be perfect with her power either especially where sounds have been a bit unreliable as of lately (which are fixed as of 3.0.0).
For instance, one example of a way you can skillfully use Spirit is to use her husk (the body she leaves behind while phasing) to bodyblock a pallet, window or pathway to prevent them from being used which isn't something people seem to do often. Another example is learning just the right distance to be at in order to get a gen grab. Infact she also has another aspect to her power that rewards players for being good at spotting changes because when she charges her power, survivors turn white before disappearing making it sometimes easier to notice without even realizing someone was there before.
That being said her power is literally all about mindgames, sure she is favored by certain aspects like hearing sounds, collisions and seeing visible changes to the environment but that's because it would be way too difficult to always predict the survivor's location each and every time without those. Her power is a mindgame because for the most part you both still need to think about how both of you are going to try and predict each other except in this case it also applies to fully visible or even otherwise safe loops which most killers cannot do without some form of a high wall.
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Good point. Well, I know that you can counter some killers without perks but let's use 1 example: Huntress against OoO. How you can expect some shots (after your BBC aura) with everyone saying that she is throwing hatchets at some direction? It destroys her. Same thing with Pig crouching. My point is, If they nerf Spirit to make her countered by survivors what it gonna be with people using these perks? Imagine the same with other killers and their "counter" perks? And why killers always need to adapt in survivors game? I don't know, I just can't see a good reason why she should be nerfed. Nurse's omegablink? Ok. Huntress instahatchets? Same. But Spirit? I had a lot of trouble against her best add ons and all I ca nsay is: It's very circunstancial
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already addressed most of this and typing the same things out to different people is rather exhausting
her power is not a mindgame, it's a guessing game
spirit does not have a high skill cap at all. have good audio and know how she works, congratulations, you're a spirit player
survivors not only have to predict where you're phasing but whether you're even phasing at all. they have no tell to work with. it's not a mindgame no matter how many times you attach this word to her
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the problem with your argument is if that is your reasoning behind the spirit getting nerfed, then several perks for survivors need hella nerfs, because killer needs to take certain perks and/or add-ons to counter them.
Every mechanic of the spirit, without add-ons, is completely balanced and based on your own skill, compared to hers. if she's standing still in front of a pallet, you know she's about to perform a mind game. this simple mind game, can be countered by you trying to make a play that is completely different from the one you just previously did. for instance, if the last time you threw down a pallet, you instantly ran to the next loop, don't do that if you see her stand next to it, as she'll probably predict you're going to do the same thing.
her biggest strength is the chase, and following up on a first hit. She is strongest in a Chase, weakest in every other aspect of the game. This is why you see people suggest you take perks that help you find survivors (bbqnchili, nurse's, discordance, ect.) So you get back into a chase faster. However, being a 4.4 killer, she depends on her ability to get around the map, which means she doesn't have it for chases, which is bad, because loops. She also needs to take a slow down perk of some form. She also depends on getting the first hit to really track someone. If you're uninjured and she phases around you, she needs to hear the heavy moans of Jane to be able to know where you are, or you leave a scratchmark trail right to your hiding spot. So, don't run if you think she's close and phasing so she can't hear you as well, and don't leave scratch marks when you're trying to hide. If she doesn't get that first hit, she'll struggle.
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So I assume you have a huge problem with Myers, Wraith, Billy, Bubba, Clown, Freddy, Pig, Hag and the rest of the killers, besides Ghost Face, Trapper and Plague. Honestly, none of those killers have built in counter-play, so, I guess maybe you should get a new game if your so upset.
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i don't even know how to dignify this with a response
all killers have counterplay except spirit, and nurse (to a degree). nurse has more counterplay than spirit but is much stronger overall
also, who's upset? i didn't realize pointing out a flaw in a killer's design had some sort of emotional backbone to it. maybe i just want the game to be better balanced?
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She's absolutely not OP. Just do generators. This is the answer to every killer outside of Nurse. Do the generators. I'm a Spirit main. Trust me. Her chase power is her map pressure and vice versa. She doesn't get both at the same time. Do the generators.
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You completely disregarded any points I made with a few of the tricks you can do with her, you also seemingly completely disregard the fact the Spirit does require skill especially considering that audio has been broken as of lately (which has been fixed in 3.0.0).
As someone who has mained Spirit for a long time she isn't that simple to master, she's just simply easier to pick up but what gives her a high skill cap is the following ;
- You can always improve with your ability to use her as you can never be perfect with her power.
- With the many tricks you have thanks to how her power is designed, you need to know the best situations to use each trick.
- You need to judge and adapt to how each survivor in your game is playing, if you cannot learn how the survivors are playing you will lose. Because there are lots of different ways survivors can react to your power, you need to know how to adapt to that.
- Although audio is very helpful, iron will can often make it much harder and so a lot of Spirit players actually need to learn how to last without it sometimes.
Unlike other killers, Spirit purely comes down to the skill of the player and the only thing that removes that skill is her very rare addons.
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She might be annoying to go against, but that doesnt mean she should be nerfed.
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haven't disregarded anything, just not repeating it for another spirit main who insists she "purely" comes down to the skill of the player despite her holding every card in every interaction with a survivor
i didn't come to this thread to convince anyone because i'm not delusional enough to think it's that easy, the same reason i didn't try to convince pre-patch legion mains that moonwalking had no counterplay. once people adopt a playstyle they'll defend it to the death, no matter how empirically bad it is for the game
she's not getting nerfed anyway because the devs also think she has counterplay, even though any good player who has played against her enough will tell you otherwise, so don't worry about what i have to say about it
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One word - Spinechill
And it's not even a perk that counters just her - it's useful against every single killer in the game. Hell, it used to be meta before all these damn second chance perks were dropped and everybody decided to become loop jockey's.
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Then you're simply refusing to discuss with people who actually have experience in using the killer and hearing their part, you can't really get far at all if you aren't willing to discuss with people who actually know the killer well. Infact you did disregard points considering the fact that I brought new points to the table such as the tricks you can do with her power.
I defend Spirit because in my experience of playing as and against her she is generally fine in most situations. Infact, the only thing that isn't fine about Spirit as I've mentioned is her very rare addons which are a bit too strong.
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the last time i played against you you were a frank's mixtape legion, which contextualizes a lot of what you're typing in this thread
the "tricks" you can do with spirit aren't mindgames, the same way none of the other things are mindgames, so no, i didn't address them specifically. i have no obligation to just repeat myself to you when nothing you've said brings anything new to the table, sorry
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Yeah I used the addon a couple of times at around the time Legion was released, infact I actually went through a cycle of using all of their addons as I wanted to understand which way I wanted to go with my suggestion on how to improve the legion & make them healthier for the game. It doesn't at all mean that I enjoyed that addon either, infact I found that I had way more fun playing them with double duration as a regular killer despite being 110% killer at the time.
To this day I completely despise both the current and old version of Frank's Mixtape and even made an entire post about how the old Legion was unhealthy because that required literally no skill. Infact I went against the new frank's mixtape the other day and still think it's unhealthy despite it being weak, however that is for a different post and is completely unrelated to this if you would like to talk about it another time.
Infact I strictly recall speaking to you after that match if you're who I think you are which means you're only taking that match (which again was roughly around 2 weeks after Legion was released) entirely out of context only to try and disprove my credibility as a player rather than properly talk about the topic at hand here.
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eats popcorn
They're gonna say it.
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I normally only play Jeff when playing Survivor, and I run Aftercare A LOT.
Helps a lot really, I highly recommend.
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i already talked about this topic
to other people
you can read back if you have any questions
you have no credibility to begin with, i don't need to disprove anything
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Except as you might've noticed, I took the time to bring up points other people didn't bring up and instead what you decided to do was to take a match from months ago completely out of context. That being said, I actually want to see better discussion regarding Spirit overall.
Here's the deal - I absolutely understand the fact that Spirit can be totally frustrating to play because unlike a lot of killers in the game she has a great advantage in most scenarios considering how her power functions. Infact I've had my own frustrations when playing against her particularly when certain addons were used such as prayer beads or the wakizashi saya addon.
Going back to my point, survivors aren't going to have fun when the killer suddenly has an insane advantage in at least some particular scenarios. That's why people either have or had a problem with the following ;
- Old Legion
- Frank's Mixtape
- Nurse
- Omega blinks & multi blinks
- Iridescent Head
- Instasaw
- Prayer Beads
- Rancor
- NOED
- Spirit Fury/Enduring combo
However, Spirit herself is fine and the only thing that actually breaks her and deserves changes is some of her addons. Otherwise without problematic addons in mind, Spirit unlike Nurse for instance doesn't get to use her great mobility & great chase potential in one go, that's a choice a player has to make thanks to the fact that Spirit has a cooldown on her power.
Ontop of this, there are absolutely ways to counter Spirit going off of the times I've played Spirit and the times I've played against Spirit, mind you that each thing I'm about to list off is not for the same exact part of her power ;
- Iron Will hard counters her phase making it much more difficult to be tracked. This one is a point others have already brought up.
- Flashlights destroy her husk allowing you to pass through it, meaning that if the Spirit is standing still and you have a flashlight you have a way of seeing if she is faking her phase or not.
- Dead Hard denies her from getting a hit if timed properly, effectively making her have to wait on her cooldown again. The only exception to this is maybe the wakizashi addon which I've already acknowledged.
- Strong windows hard counter her while phasing. Granted, really powerful windows are a problem of themselves however Spirit cannot vault while phasing meaning that you have an opportunity to outplay her with certain windows.
- Perks like Quick & Quiet, Lithe & Dance With Me allow you to make further use out of the counter I provided above as with the first perk she won't hear you vault, but not only that but Lithe was also buffed to not have a chase requirement while Dance With Me removes your scratchmarks.
- Edit : Someone else brought up spine chills, I honestly forgot this perk existed. This perk is actually great in general and works against everyone except T1 Myers. One trick you can do is run Spine chills and walk away from Spirit's direct LOS and if it lights up then she's phasing to you, if it doesn't then she's most likely faking her power.
Spirit can be frustrating, but she has counterplay and as I've said multiple times, she's fine thanks to that with the exception of a handful of problematic addons.
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spirit is frustrating because she has no counterplay
you're listing perks, which i've already said doesn't matter and isn't an argument. perks aren't counterplay
the points you brought up were regurgitated from other people i've already spoken to in this thread
spirit holds all the cards in any interaction with a survivor. playing against a spirit is tantamount to playing a guessing game. winning a guessing game doesn't mean you counterplayed the spirit, it means the spirit messed up
i'm going to leave this thread since i've said everything i'm going to say and, like i said earlier, i didn't come here to convince anyone, not to mention any previous instance of me (or others) having a balance discussion with you has been akin to talking to a brick wall, which is another reason i don't feel like having a full on discussion with you
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Why would we need more "fun killers" Spirit is fine, just because you hate facing her means nothing.
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A killer doesn't need to be nerfed when it takes a lot of practice to be OP at them. All you guys do is whine- i swear. You want the game to be easy?
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She is one of the most balanced killers in the game. She is strong af but she has weakness.
• She is slow as hell
• You can hear her coming from a MILE away with her power
• Her power has a recharge
• Iron Will, Lightweight, Dance With Me, Spine Chill, and Premonition are all great counters
How good she is relies on how well she can follow sounds and mindgame survivors, if you stay at a pallet loop with Spirit and get downed then that is totally your fault.
The ONLY thing I’d ever nerf on her is Prayer Beads. That add-on is busted. A good Spirit does not need Prayer Beads to ensure kills.
You have all the counters laid out in front of your face. If you don’t use them and still complain about wanting to nerf Spirit then you’re just bad. Sorry not sorry.
I’m pretty sure my fellow Spirit players @Poweas @Blueberry and @NuclearBurrito agree with the fact that she is extremely balanced and is in a good place. She is one of the few killers who don’t need any TLC. We should be focusing on poor Leatherface.
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You forgot me!
But I do agree with your points. She controls the game, which is why Survivors don't like her. They are used to controlling Killers. The ONLY 2 killers who have the power role in the chase are Nurse and Spirit.
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Oh yes, you've clearly want the game to be easier. You realize that the only killer without counter play is Nurse, right? Oh, and here's a tip, this community is pretty divided on EVERYTHING. So, perhaps when 95% of people say, "Yeah, that killer is fine." Maybe, just maybe, you might be wrong. This entire thread and your responses have just been you flaunting your arrogance, refusing to see any other sides than your own. Now, try to tone it down, good day.
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how is this thread a representation of the "community"? i see both sides of this discussion and have played both sides of the discussion. a bunch of self described killer mains insisting i'm wrong doesn't really mean anything, i already know i maintain a balanced perspective of this game
call me arrogant for not typing out an essay to everyone who just repeats the same things other people have said if you want, i've gone in plenty of detail explaining how spirit has no counterplay. you specifically have added nothing to the discussion except for useless cheerleading and tone policing like this post
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@miaasma these kinds of WIFOM style mindgames may seem like guessing but I can assure you that there is a lot of psychology involved.
And either way, the Spirit is playing the exact same "guessing game"
Running to the next loop vs vaulting the pallet when a spirit stands still in front of a dropped pallet is something both the Spirit needs to predict from the survivor AND something the survivor needs to predict from the spirit.
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I do agree she is one of the most balanced killers in the game.
I've been following the discussion but I didn't see a point in posting. The counters have already been laid out many, many times and the people that still think she doesn't have counters are going to disagree no matter what I say so I didn't see a point.
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sound, collision, scratch marks. yeah what a "guess" lol
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i don't know if some selective reading is going on or if there's a legitimate cognitive dissonance happening here, but here goes
spirit doesn't need to "predict" anything because she has mid-phase tells; she has collision, she has audio (when it's working) and she has scratch marks, not to mention environmental effects like grass moving. none of that is "prediction". even nurse involves more prediction than spirit does lol
on the other hand, the survivor doesn't predict anything because the survivor has literally no idea what's happening at any point in time and has to guess based on how the spirit has been playing. that's closer to prediction but it's prediction based on nothing inherent to the killer
so in the survivor/killer interaction you have one side (the spirit) who has plenty of tools to figure out where the survivor is, and the survivor has 0 tools to figure out where the spirit is, or if she's even using her power. that is not well designed gameplay. one side is guessing, one is not. i have been saying this multiple times throughout the thread and people just kind of plug their ears while regurgitating the same "she's mindgaming you!!" points over and over again. i'm not trying to shame anyone for playing or enjoying spirit, i'm just telling you that she's not a well designed killer
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Survivors actually do have a tool to track Spirit while her power is being used on most maps with the exception of The Game & Lery's. Survivors can see the same environmental effects that the Spirit can. By this I mean that Spirit still causes grass to move which can tell survivors where she is meaning that they're both equal in that regard as neither can see each other and both can see the grass move.
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tracking a spirit with environmental effects is pretty useless considering once she gets close enough to where you can see grass move you're probably already dead
on top of that i've noticed that her making grass/corn move is really inconsistent
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Not necessarily useless as you can also hear the grass move, that being said though if she isn't consistently making grass or corn move then that should definitely be looked at.
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@miaasma when it comes to at the very least the decision of "Will he vault the pallet or not" the ques aren't enough. By the time you hear the pallet vault you are either on the correct side or you aren't.
The audio que from injured doesn't matter because you already know he's on the other side of the pallet right now, the question is what he will do by the time you've phased over (or not)
Scratchmarks don't really matter since again, it's a pallet vault (or not), so that doesn't really help
As for other situations it really depends on what is happening. Even in a straight away assuming they aren't injured if you phase right at them they can 360 around you, they won't usually hit your collision since they aren't turning DIRECTLY around (just a fairly tight u turn) and the scratchmarks are overlapping (Unless she's running predator) so the spirit won't immediately see where they went. In that particular case the spirit will obviously notice that scrachmarks stop appearing and that they should probably turn around, however by that point you bought yourself time to run her out of phase walk.
And lets say She counters this by just turning directly around still in phase to catch up to you again. You could just stop running and move to the side, now you AREN'T 360ing her but you are making it look like you are.
While there is stuff that spirit can do against running, 360ing or walking, she can't counter all 3 at once and can only differentiate so well between the 3 (in that particular case being injured changes this)
And of course there are cases involving window jukes ect where you can use slow vaults to hide notifications, or just fast vault if you don't think she's on the other side. Or maybe even fast vault one way and then immediately slow vault back depending on her initial distance.
Sound ques and scratchmarks aren't 100% reliable even when they are working as intended.
Yes she has an advantage of over you in these interactions, no ######### she does, if she didn't then she wouldn't be a good killer in the slightest. That's why she was ######### pre-buff. But an advantage does not mean a guarantee.
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git gud
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It's like an unsafe pallet interaction, but with normally safe pallets
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I know crows flying away have alerted survivors when I'm phasing, as well. I'm pretty sure I've been told survivors can hear The Spirit's footsteps, too, but I don't know that for certain because my headphones suck.
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