The Battle Pass can't be finished by casual players.
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You can't play this game and not learn to plan ahead. Use that now. They will take as much money as we will give them. If this is accepted, other things will come. It has happened time and time again in other games. A mutually beneficial business arrangement is possible with manipulating your customers You do not want this game going down the road of CoD and sports games.
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It would be more like you paying a pizza joint to let you work there, and as long as you keep working there they give you a pizza every day.
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I'm kinda trying to not play dbd too much until the mid chapter update because I don't wanna get burned out and fall behind on the pass after buying. I have no idea how fast and easy it is to tier up though.
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Counterpoint, World of Warcraft sells mounts, pets and transmog outfits on their store and have for years. When they started people claimed it was only a matter of time before they started selling gear too, spoiler alert they are NOT. If you wanna take your stand now, that is your right but I’ll wait until I have something to take a stand against that concerns me.
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Lots of people are missing the point here. All this speculation about what The Rift is designed to do, and who it's supposed to be for, is needless, because we've literally been told by the developers themselves exactly how long it's supposed to take and who it's supposed to be for. Namely, it should take about 70-80 hours, so the "average player" (that is, someone who plays for roughly one hour a day) should be able to complete the Tome and Rift fully within the 70 days. That's what we've been told. So the issue isn't about whether or not The Archives were designed to be accessible to the majority of players. We've been told that they are. The issue is whether or not the practice is living up to the theory.
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@Fibijean unfortunately, the 70-80 hours stated by BHVR has proven to be inaccurate. The absolute minimum is ~120 hours of game play, which does not include the amount of time that you have to wait in order to get into a match. If you figure that time in, we’re talking ~160 hours on average. Being off by a factor of 2 is extremely negligent, and deceptive. BHVR knowingly made these false statements to deceive players in attempt to grab their money.
No one should buy the “Rift Pass” unless:
- You have completed the Rift prior to the Rift ending, and thus will receive everything on the Rift, including your 1,000 Auric Cells back, or
- It is the last day of the Rift and you are happy with the items that you will receive for spending 1,000 Auric Cells.
The cosmetics have 0 (zero) actual value. It is up to you to determine if the items in the store are worth the virtual values that BHVR has placed on them.
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70-80 hours is like the most optimistic scenario we aren't even counting dc's and other game breaking bugs. And matches that don't even load up so 70-80 is like maybe optimal play.
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Who proved that 120 hours is the absolute minimum? A streamer, multiple streamers?
PS I agree 100% no reason to pay until you’re sure what you’ve earned is worth paying the 10 bucks
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@johnmwarner several people have done the calculations for a perfect world, based on different game length times. The ~120 hours I state has a margin of error of +/- 15%, and is based on the average game length being ~12 minutes + lobby time + end game time + loadout & Bloodweb time. The amount of time that it takes to get the lobbies will vary based on several factors, and is impossible to calculate with any amount of accuracy, but ~40 hours seems about right for when I play.
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Exactly. They've said one thing, but the product we're looking at doesn't seem to fit those standards.
Worse, the challenges they've created for unlocking lore and rift fragments get really ugly in the later tiers. Sacrificing survivors during the EGC with NOED? Sacrificing four in the basement? Rescuing survivors after the EGC has started? At least the first two are somewhat within the player's control, even if they can be extremely difficult and don't exactly encourage healthy gameplay, but that third one really requires the stars to align. Are SWF supposed to farm this stuff on purpose? Are solo survivors supposed to sandbag their teammates just so they can save them?
Matches could either get really frustrating, or killers will just start messaging survivors before every match asking, "Hey, what challenge do you need to complete? Help me and I'll help you."
And let's not even get started on the problem of disconnects. Achievements are made ten times harder than they need to be by disconnects; why would this be any different? The husk mechanic should've been implemented before the battlepass.
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I disagree that they've done it intentionally. They may make mistakes sometimes, but they're not stupid, and they know we're not stupid either.They knew people would have two weeks to try it out and they knew that we would do the maths. It would make no sense, knowing that, to quote what they knew to be an inaccurate figure because all it would do is hurt their business. It's not like they're getting money out of it from excited people buying passes before the truth comes out, because no one can buy passes for another week. If they really wanted to scam impulsive people out of their money with false advertising, they wouldn't have released that information until the Rift passes were available to purchase.
Unless we assume that the developers know nothing about human psychology or smart business practices (and the success of their game would suggest otherwise), there is no rational reason to believe that they set out to deceive players. The much more likely explanation is that they simply didn't take certain things into account in their calculations, which also matches up better with their actions in the past. Most of the time when they release a change and later reverse it, it's because the players tested the feature and demonstrated why it didn't work as well in practice as in theory. That's the entire point of a PTB.
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They are not stupid. They are testing how stupid we are. There is no benevolence here. They will take as much money as we allow.
DBD probably has a more intelligent player base than most games. The game is all about tactical thinking and not fast reflexes which get you very little here. So are we going to fall into the same thing Fortnite and CoD players have gotten into?
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@Fibijean it’s simple math. In a perfect world with no loss of time, their calculations are at the very least 30% lower than is physically possible. Their numbers specifically state that the average person should be able to complete the entire Rift in 70-80 hours, which is physically impossible. Their wording would include all time spent, and not just these perfect world numbers. So, either everyone at BHVR failed basic math, or they purposely fed us false numbers. A court of law considers both to be fraud, so I’ll have to disagree with your perspective.
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I mean... the developers are people too. They're probably not psychopathic monsters. I don't believe that such a cynical outlook is actually supported by their past actions, but if you're determined to believe the worst of people there's not much I can say to change your mind.
I suppose all I can say is that even if they are the heartless moneygrubbers you seem to think they are, it still wouldn't make sense for them to release false information on purpose. We've already agreed that they are neither stupid nor bad at business, therefore they would know that a business strategy which depends on your customers being idiots is a really, really bad strategy.
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I think the truth is in the middle. I think they did the math wrong, sent out the wrong numbers before someone could check it, realised this mistake, but haven't said that the numbers are wrong, and they will either reduce the grind, or leave it be and say "we got the wrong numbers."
Either way, the battle pass has a nice cover, but the pages are getting muddier the more people look into it. I hope when it hits live they fix it, but with how BHVR never says changes and just pushes them out, we won't know till launch.
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The battle pass seems like you would need to put in excess of 200 hours just to get to the end maybe. However given all DBD's complications with servers and stuff it could be well over 200 hours at the end of it and even by then you might not get everything.
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Exactly. Plus some of the challenges in the later tiers get stupidly hard for no real reason. One of them is "Sacrifice all 4 survivors in the basement with Agitation." Like how likely is a casual person going too get this challenge done?
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I'm not denying that their calculations seem to have been way off. All I'm saying is, as implausible as it seems for them to have gotten it so wrong, in my opinion it's even more implausible that they deliberately fed us false numbers because the only way that would make sense is if they are either stupid or bad at business or both, and we've already established that they are neither.
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I can agree with all that. I would be surprised if they didn't reduce the grind, because I suspect they'll lose a lot of money if they don't from people who would have bought the passes if the numbers were correct. But as you say, we probably won't know until launch.
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Dead by Daylight is proof enough that they're not. One underperforming product doesn't make a company business failures. Google Glass tanked. Would you say Google is unsuccessful or bad at business?
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Not be cynical but I don't see bhvr as our friend we are a consumer of their product. And they want as much money as they can get
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Of course. I'm not saying Behaviour is our best friend. All I'm saying is they're not our enemy. We don't have to pit ourselves against them. We can just enjoy their game and give them feedback to try to help them improve it. Mistakes are much more common than bad intentions. Jumping to the worst conclusions about someone's intentions, especially when those conclusions aren't necessarily supported by their past actions, is just bad life practice in general in my opinion.
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Now, I ain't no economic person, but wouldn't it makes sense that they'd earn more money in the long run by being less scummy? Happy players make happy customers?
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It would I think and good publicity as well
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@Fibijean you have derailed this thread, so this will be my last reply to you. Google is both successful, and bad at business, but that has absolutely no bearing on this thread in any way. BHVR is making a money grab by presenting fake numbers, and has failed to respond in any way. If it was a mistake, they would have said so by now. At this point, it doesn’t matter what they say, as we can be assured that it will be a lie.
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She hasn't derailed the topic, she's simply using google as an example. BHVR never say their mistakes publicly, at least I never seen them do it. they will just push it live with changes (hopefully) and that's that. It's how BHVR has run ever since I've been playing DBD at least.
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Whew, what a thread. I have a feeling that the pendulum is going to swing the other way for some people when the battle pass actually comes out. I foresee a glut of killer players, more dcs if people think they won't finish their tasks, and an increase in players trying to farm. Good luck everyone, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
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Re: this pass business.
I'm not bothered about hanging silly ornaments on my hooks etc.
I've already got sufficient skins for all the killers (except Hillbilly because he has not great skins imo, but I don't care as he's the killer I enjoy the least).
I like doing challenges/rituals and the extra bloodpoints are welcome.
There should NOT be a cut off date where the current challenges disappear and we lose the opportunity to gain whatever unlockables we had left. This really gets up my nose. We can chose a ritual from the chain and hence should be able to do whatever ritual whenever we want.
So:
Good:
- Lots of challenges
-Extra Bloodpoints
-Extra skins
Bad:
-Too much grind in too little time.
-Chain reset.
-Useless knick-knacks.
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Just to be clear, the challenges themselves do stick around forever, and as far as I am aware, they will always award Rift Fragments. The Tomes are not time-limited, but the Rift closes after 70 days. Meaning you will be able to do challenges whenever you want, and earn their rewards, but those rewards can only be used to progress in a Rift as long as that Rift is open.
The charms are a matter of opinion - sure, they're useless, but personally I really love them. I think we can all mostly agree that the way things look right now, though, the grind is too much.
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For real it took me like 2 months to get to level 85 on season 2 without buying the premium battlepass and that was me playing everday, if this is anything like that then there's no way someone can finish that unless they're a streamer or play the game hours everyday.
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My head is spinning with all these terms. I haven't read extensively enough to understand it all and haven't played PTB.
So what happens when the Rift closes after 70 days? How are things different?
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I won't be able to use the archive/battle pass much. I've been playing DbD since launch, it's my most played game on steam and that's coming in at just under 300 hours. I just don't have time for games. I'm also starved for Bloodpoints so "unhook X people with Y survivor" would be attempted with no perks.
Second I can't play survivor due to carpal tunnel and the struggle mechanic :(
I do like the idea idea of the Archive to promote varity, but most of the time it's going to be a stand still.
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So the Tome and the Rift are two separate things, collectively known as The Archives. The Tome is the part with the challenges, from which you can earn BPs and Rift Fragments, the Rift is the part where you use Rift Fragments to progress through the tiers and unlock cosmetics and charms.
Every 90 days (I think) they release a new Tome and a new Rift. First Tome and Rift release in a bit over a week. The Tome will stay up permanently, so anyone can enter it and do the challenges, and unlock BPs and RFs and pieces of lore, whenever they want, regardless of when they start playing.
The Rift will stay up for 70 days, during which time you can progress through the tiers and unlock as many rewards as possible. After 70 days, the Rift closes, the Tome stays open. Any rewards remaining in the Rift which you haven't yet reached will be locked. Rift-exclusive skins will arrive in the Store at least six months after their respective Rift closes. Charms are Rift-exclusive, so you won't be able to get them ever once the Rift closes. After another 20 days, a new Rift will open, with new rewards, and the whole cycle starts again.
A new Tome will also be released alongside the new Rift, but as mentioned, the previous Tome(s) will still remain available. I believe, although this hasn't been confirmed officially, that the rewards for challenges in those Tomes will also remain unchanged. So for example, if you're working on the fourth Rift this time next year, you could go back and do any uncompleted challenges from the first, second, third or fourth Tomes, and use any Rift Fragments earned to progress in the current Rift.
Hope that all makes sense - it is a lot of different terms and new features to take in.
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When isn't it in the land of Dead by Daylight.
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Cheers for all that. Much appreciated.
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I just wanted to add that you shouldn't think to costly about dedicated servers. Other games like old hl,cs,quake,cod had dedicated servers too. Sure some of them were set up by the devs/publishers but most of them were either set up by the community or rented by the community.
So yeah they could include dedicated servers with literally no cost, all they would have to do is actually make a server browser. Benefit of that would be probably better servers and no controversial f2p models within dbd.
Sad but true.
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Do you keep progress achieved in a game if you disconnect?
If so I can see people disconnecting not only when they think they won't make any or much progress, but the opposite. Done with a long or difficult task? Time to disconnect to switch to the next one to maximize your progression.
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I didn't need a battle pass to play DBD before and i don't need one one now. I'll get the free one and maybe i'll get something for free or i won't
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No you do not. You have too complete the trial in order too get the challenge progress.
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I have the same feeling. It's very unlikely that he is normal consumers. Either an employee or just simply very blinded with his love towards dbd.
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Wow, tin foil hat time for sure
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I am a casual at this point and I know a lot of casuals too. We all spend money, buy DLCs, cosmetics, etc... so..
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Like bps you and dailys you have to finish for rewards. Nothing to stop you from getting a killer to chase you to a hook and pointing at it until you die. It would be the most time efficient way to continue on to your next rift. I'm sure it's going to ruin a lot of survivor games.
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The community is so toxic I wouldn’t discard the fact that people might DC only to ruin your progress... hah
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Killer games too.
It will also ruin progression opportunities for all other players. You can't really complete challenges if people are suiciding on hooks left and right.
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I'm not going to bother with the Archives nor the Rift. I'm going to continue to play normally. If I just happen to complete a challenge or two along the way and get a few extra Bloodpoints, so be it.
I logged into the PTB and checked out all the rewards. None of the skins are anything I find worth grinding for, and I absolutely do not give a damn about charms. To me, personally, they're about as attractive a reward as sprays in most other games.
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Sometimes you gotta have to wear it
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This, so much.
NOTE: This started out as a comment but I feel like it warrants its own thread. You can find it here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/95577/battlepass-tracks-should-not-expire-once-bought-players-should-be-able-to-pick-one-as-active/
Once bought, you should be able to complete the different battlepass tracks whenever you want.
People who can't finish them on time should not have to spend even more money to get the stuff they want. When the next track releases the current one expires, and if someone hasn't finished the old one yet then that will put them behind on the next track.
I don't even think that Behaviour would lose out on money: With the current system the players might get frustrated after a while and stop buying the battlepasses altogether. If they were able to finish them whenever they wanted, at their leisure, they might keep buying them, and maybe spend money on some of their old tracks to finish them.
Example: A players has purchased the first two battlepass tracks, and not finished them. The third track releases. The player decides to mark the new track as the active one to progress on it. The player also uses Auric Cells to finish off the first battlepass track to get it out of the way. This is a much more consumer friendly because there is no fear of missing out if that player does not finish it before the next battlepass track releases. Behaviour still makes money from the sale of the three battlepass tracks and the Auric Cells used to finish the first track.
This way you could even bring back some of the old battlepass tracks that people might have missed out on, for example new players who didn't even play when that specific battlepass released. The way the system is currently set up I don't think this is possible.
By bringing back old battlepass tracks and letting players choose which track they want to progress on Behaviour can even make more money than with the current system, while at the same time players won't feel like they are missing out. It is more consumer friendly while at the same time allowing Behaviour to make more money off each individual battlepass track release because they can bring the old ones back in the future.
Example: There is another free weekend. A lot of new players try out the game. Some of them like it and want to buy it. They see the exclusive battlepass cosmetics / charms.
- Scenario 1: They realize that they can not ever get those items because they did not play when the battlepass track released. Because they can never have all the content due to being new they decide not to buy the game after all.
- Scenario 2: The old battlepass tracks are put back on sale for the weekend and the week after. The potential new players like the game, like the cosmetics they have seen and buy the game and the old battlepass tracks. Behaviour makes more money and the new players are happy.
There are two downsides that I can see:
- the ability to switch between tracks needs to be implemented and I cannot gauge the amount of work required for that so I am not going to comment on that further
- players may be upset because the battlepass does not give them true exclusives, the charms, as the other cosmetics are going to be put in the store after a while
Behaviour has decided to not make exclusive (streamer) cosmetics anymore as people were upset that they couldn't get them easily outside of something like purchasing them on eBay for large amounts of money. As the charms appear to be a violation of this new policy I feel like that this is strong support for the implementation of the ability to switch between and complete old battlepass tracks.
A thread discussing this can be find the Feedback subforum, here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/95577/battlepass-tracks-should-not-expire-once-bought-players-should-be-able-to-pick-one-as-active/
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The FOMO aspect is part of the business plan. They want you to feel the time crunch and make it difficult to complete with just gameplay, as a result people will pay real money to advance the tiers. The time limit is not going anywhere.
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