CHANGE BBQ & RUIN
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BBQ should not be changed.
- It is entirely counterable. As others have said you have NUMEROUS ways to avoid the aura reading every single time.
- It rewards not camping by giving information on where to go that's far away from the hook.
- It rewards not tunneling by giving bonuses for going for each separate survivor.
Ruin SHOULD be changed, it's a far too RNG-reliant bandaid to the poor time dynamic that exists in the game. There is nothing else in the game that even comes close to its ability to stall in the crucial early moments of the game. Ruin should be changed, but it should happen alongside a change to the early game or secondary objectives.
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Maybe instead of making it lose progression for good skill checks and no progression for great skill checks, it should act more like The Third Seal.
Survivors who get hit by the killer gets affected by Ruin for a certain amount of time, which increases per tier. And it shouldn't be reduced progression, it should be like autodidact's skill checks where it's only good skill checks without any means to lose progression. That way Ruin can still have the benefits of stalling generators without it being too RNG reliant or being too powerful if no one finds the hex totem.
I may just be spitballing though, I don't know the first thing that comes into game balance as I am not a game designer. I just think that maybe this is a good idea to replace Ruin with something else that sounds decent. But maybe it just sounds decent on paper. On practice this might be a horrible idea and I welcome anyone to prove me wrong with this idea.
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That still has major issues. We have plenty of tools to stall that work well later in the game like Pop Goes the Weasel, and a heap of slowing perks.
The issue is that all of them take time and hooks to get going, by which point 2-3 gens are almost guaranteed to be done already.
If Ruin were to work off hits it would have the same issues, if not worse, since to get it to do anything worthwhile you'd have to keep abandoning chases. It would simply remove all of the pressure it applies during the early game which is the only reason people run it.
It's also counter-intuitive like the add ons Billy and Bubba have to slow repair speed on chainsaw hits, because if you're triggering it, that person it either in a chase or completely incapacitated and burning the debuff duration for nothing.
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Why are people still complaining about Ruin and BBQ ? Both are easily counterable.
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Ruin is the only stall perk that doesn't require you to fulfill a special condition, doesn't require the killer to waste time kicking generators, works immediately at the start of the game, slows down every survivor on the map (Including the ones that you're not chasing) and provides value even if the survivors hit every skill check.
It's consistent, it's powerful, and the perk is at its most powerful when you need it most; right at the start of the game, when the survivors have free reign over the generators and the killer has no idea where any of them are.
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This! I probably would replace bbq with infectious or something else, but j can't ignore the double bp
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The only survivors who hate bbq now are the ones who are too lazy to hop in a locker or get closer to the killer. I cannot comprehend why people think its such a strong perk, i rarely even use it as killer anymore. Only when i'm looking to get lots of points.
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I get how Ruin can be boring to go against every match, I feel the same way but I'm not any better. I use it on most of my M1 killers too.
BBQ has so many counters I don't think anyone should be complaining about it. Like, hide behind a gen, hide in a locker, stand still for 4 seconds, walk in one direction for 4 seconds then turn around, run Distortion etc
It's a nice tracking tool and gives some easy double bloodpoints in this grindy game.
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Because BBQ is so prevalent that it forces you to play with it in mind every time.
Which means either counter it and lost time or ignore it and just go for broke genrushing (which is what happens in higher ranks).
It doesn't matter in high ranks but it's a huge headache for lower ranks.
It's not healthy for the game that has already become increasingly hostile to survivor stealth strategies.
If we want to nerf looping and fix palettes BHVR still needs to provide alternatives so Survivors still have other tools to survive. Stealth is the most logical alternative.
Nerfing BBQ is necessary to make that possible. Otherwise looping will be here to stay.
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And who do you think exactly gets seconds when a survivors loses seconds?
That's right... They go to the killer.
This is the kind of double standard thinking that we need to get rid of. If seconds are precious to killers, then obviously they are also precious to survivors because every second the survivor loses is a second the killer gains.
Come on.
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4 Seconds for a killer is not nearly enough to be considered overpowered.
There are perks that gives a killer more than just 4 seconds of time. Perks like Sloppy Butcher, Ruin, Thanatophobia, Dying Light. All these perks gives arguably more time for the killer than BBQ and Chili.
4 Seconds is not a good hill to die on.
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It's because it's TRUE not that I'm disconnected. It's a good perk used by bad player's. You dont see a good player go "if only I had NoeD I would of gotten the 4k" they make it happen. You can say whatever you want, but the facts are there. It's like why BBQ is significantly better than Bitter Murmer other then the BP gains. BBQ&C rewards your success and Bitter Murmur rewards your failure to be proactive. Same with Devour Hope vs NoeD.
It rewards failure and nothing more. It's like the EGC hatch escape. It rewards the survivors failure not there success.
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It is difficult to play without Ruin in the first ranks. I myself don’t like to play with it and don’t play, I prefer PGTW. I used to play with Thanatophobia, but the developers killed this perk, giving preference to Ruin. I even left a topic on the forum about this, and not one. But the problem is that the surviving gen rush. 5 minutes and all the generators are wound up. Do you think killers aren’t bored? These are 2 sides of the same coin. Take away the gen rush and no one will use the Ruins.
I won’t say anything bad about the BBQ, it’s a good perk, it gives double bloodpoints and helps to track survivors.
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Stealth is not a logical alternative.
Stealth is a game survivors get to play, and an exercise in absolute boredom for killers.
"Oh boy is the survivor behind this rock? Nope! Are they behind that tree? Nope! Oh look gens got done and nobody has any points because someone finds it more fun to sit in a locker for 20 minutes than to play an engaging match!"
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What's your suggestion then? If not stealth then we'll have to double down on looping, unless you have a better Idea.
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It's 4 seconds each time plus what ever time it took them to reach the locker or get closer, then get back to what they're doing. 3x for each unhooked survivor. And it gives that ON TOP of the other many benefits BBQ gives. And it even gives that when you don't use BBQ!
Survivors will still give you those seconds even if you're not using BBQ because they expect it.
Face it. It's a loaded perk.
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me and many others are getting sick and tired of Decisive strike and Adrenaline in every freaking game....legit every game....it's all everyone uses none stop and its so damn BORING!!! no variety what so ever!! change them to items or something or change how they work because it's killing my interest in the game dealing with same thing each game because it's so strong. no one wants to try different things and it's not fun to play against the same thing all day. make them items or something so people can't have it each game and make them have to change perks up.
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Finally! Someone who gets it. Adrenaline and DS, ask the dumb owns need to be fixed.
Should note DS already got its nerf.
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Ds got changed , not necessarily nerfed but not necessarily buffed. Now the only thing that needs doing to it is making it more an anti tunnel perk and less a 60s of invincibility
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Every time you are hit with Sloppy Butcher you are mangled, last I checked if you self-care with the Mangled effect it will take around 30 seconds. I may be wrong with this. But I am certain it's still longer than 4 seconds.
Ruin if not broken can make a team lose precious minutes because the skillchecks no longer give you bonuses for Great Skillchecks and punishes you for getting Good Skillchecks, causing you to lose more time.
Thanatophobia reduces every action speed for each survivor that is injured, and Dying Light makes gen speed go even slower the more hooks a killer has of everyone except the obsession, meaning more than just 4 seconds each time the killer hooks someone.
And you're saying 4 seconds is loaded? Seriously? I know you also said the time it took for them to go find a locker or go near the killer too. But that can't be more than just be more than 10 seconds at a time. 10 Seconds to not allow the killer to know where you are, effectively denying the killer to use the detection part of BBQ and Chili.
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But D strike, borrow, adrenaline and dead hard are fine? True survivor main thread LUL
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By the way I'm okay with making double BP baseline and removing it from BBQ. That works too. As long as survivors also get double BP baseline.
Survivors get far less BP than even killers.
You know who's not okay with this, though? BHVR. BHVR wants you grinding those gears baby.
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At least the archives give 15,000 whenever you complete a challenge which is kinda a step in the right direction.
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People use it so much for it's BP, that's true, but that's no reason to make the perk useless beyond for farming points.
Self Care wasn't nerfed, healing in general was nerfed. Sure Self care now also takes longer to heal, but you are still not wasting any more time than when someone else is healing you. It's still 50% healing speed.
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but the thing is that it is SO EASY for survivors to waste the killers time, even with very basic looping, so time is more precious for the killer than a survivor, even with a killer using EVERY SECOND HE HAS, without ruin the game can end in under 5min
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BBQ & Ruin are two of the easiest perks to counterplay.
Think the killer has BBQ? Hide in a locker or behind a gen. Simple. (Though now you probably got your buddy camped because BBQ is one of the few reasons to leave a hook)
If the killer has Ruin just power through it. Even not hitting Hex Checks is significantly faster (typically) than running around looking for the cleanse. Or you can cleanse the totem at which point you are facing a 3 perk killer.
Probably the EASIEST perks to counter play around. Are they strong? Hell yeah they are! But both are easily played around (which is the entire point of perks).
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All these people saying that pgtw is better than ruin...if I rolled my eyes any harder they would pop out of my face. No other perk in the game has the ability to create as much time as ruin. POP lets you fight for generators one at a time and you get the maximum benefit for it when the gen to done, additionally it requires you to hook someone to activate for a limited amount of time. Ruin is fighting to stop generators from being progressed the entire time it’s up.
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I don't like running the same two perks every game either, but BBQ is fine where it is. I just want more BP perks (but they don't stack above 100%) so we can have a choice (basically make it like Exhaustion perks, where you can run one but running multiple isn't as effective).
For Ruin to be fixed, gens need to be reworked in some way or a secondary objective needs to be added. Otherwise, most killers will get stomped on every game.
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The game isn't over because 5 gens were completed. The game ends when you escape. Five gens complete are the same as one gen complete if you can not get the gate opened and make it out.
NOED doesn't reward anyone with anything. Survivors don't magically die because it's in play.
You do realize there is a perk that allows survivors to play exposed all match right? People escape.
NOED can be prevented from firing at all before the end game and easily cleansed if it does.
Adrenaline requires no effort at all. The gens complete and it fires regardless of whether you did a single thing all match, regardless of whether you are on the ground or injured.
You have no facts, only very biased rhetoric.
Lol.
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Ya I know how the game works man you dont have to tell me lol. Funny how some people get so triggered when you actively say NoeD is used by Bad killers and suddenly it's up in arms by a few super defensive players. Then justify how you can't play the game because they can't.
All on saying is why use a perk that is actually commonly used by bad players because of there shortcomings. It rewards failure on the killers part to prevent the objective from being completed. Unlike some perks which are far more powerful which requires a killer to actually be good enough in the match to get downs and hooks.
Adrenaline is better then NoeD will ever be and honestly at least that rewards the team for successfully doing well or EGC starts and you get yet another free chance as a survivor. Your right that survivor may of done nothing, but the team probably did.
It is a fact nor biased rhetoric btw lmao. I dont use NoeD because I never needed it to hopefully secure a kill i didn't deserve to make me fill better. If I didnt play well as a killer or as a survivor I dont need a perk to make up for that.
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Forgive me if I take what you say with a grain of salt. You seem to have some survivor bias there.
You try and trigger people, then laugh when it works. I've seen you do this a few times. How about we stick to facts and not try and annoy the people we are talking about to "win."
Alot of perks are used by "bad players" alot of people on survivor side use DS, DH, or Adren to make up for there own mistakes. Kinda like "Opps, I mess up that loop, DH!" or "Oh I got downed again, I hope he picks me up so I can DS him." or "I'll hop in this locker cause I have DS and it will waste his time, or he has to leave and let me work on the gen here." things like that. You can not just say that "Oh you use this perk so you are bad." That is not how a perk system works. To tell someone not to use a perk cause of your own judgement is wrong. You also can't say "At least the team did something" in response to a Killer perk, like your argument for Adren, because the Killer is ALONE. He doesn't have a team to carry him, he just has to do it on his own.
Before you say anything, I don't use NoED. But your arguments are biased, even if you say they are not. Why? Cause no human can ever really be non-biased. NoED in my opinion isn't to "Secure a kill" to "Feel better" it's to be stronger in the EGC and be a threat during that time. It makes sense lorewise.
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Alright ignoring all the fluff and stuff.
I usually only ever see NoeD used by low to medium skill players in every rank from rank 20 to rank 1. Problem I feel is why would you actually improve when you can fall back on NoeD? It's not a reward for reaching the EGC (lorewise it's great, but it predates EGC). You main Legion, but despite his nerfs you continue play him and from what I gather have good success with him. Just like I do with Pig despite them being "weaker". I'm aware you dont use NoeD based on our previous interactions.
I feel killers in general have a better chance at pipping and getting a 4k with a proactive approach to the game with perks that reward them for downing and hooking survivors. Perks that you fall back on like Bitter Murmur for example rewards you as a killer for losing an objective. These perks in general are considered bad because of the fact they help you afterwards not before.
NoeD imho is the Killer variation of a second chance perk sort of, but unlike survivor second chance perk is extremely unreliable. With the increase to Totem Blood Points, Increase in Small Game, and Inner Strength is becoming even weaker then usual.
In reality when you use NoeD you wont learn to ask yourself these questions "what did I do wrong? Did I chase to long? What did I mess up on? Not protect the gens enough? Did I tunnel? Did I camp? ETC" You've effectively just 4k the game and that's it.
So all in all when I say NoeD is a good perk used by bad killers I'm being quite honest. Normally the killers who use it never would of gotten even a 1k without it.
As for survivors second chance perk we can debate that, but that could take some serious time. So if you want I will reply to them if you want. I have read your Legion thread btw I just haven't got around to posting my thoughts.
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Well, thank you first of all for being more level headed now.
You are correct. Most people that use NoED will not ask themselves those questions. The difference is some WILL. I always ask myself those questions with a bad game, and I do not even take the game as a competitive game. Yes, I main Legion and manage to do well with him, with a build that I put together and works with my playstyle. Alot of the lower tier Killers need alot of help.
I agree that you get more pips and such with a proactive game, but alot of the times... like if you don't have much gen slowdown for example... you CAN'T have a proactive game. Even as well as I do at times, some times 2-3 gens pop before I can down someone. Map was too big for a lower tier Killer to cover or some such. IN that moment, I could see the reason some people feel NOED might be needed. Some games you feel powerless as Killer, and that's not fun at all.
As you said, Survivors have very reliable second chance perks. While the only one Killers have is very unreliable, as you yourself said. Don't you think that is a problem?
Yes, take your time to make a thread about the survivor second chance perks and I'll give you feedback there. Also I am happy you read my thread. I hope to see some ideas from you there, just please keep the "Rush Down" playstyle if you come up with a rework or something.
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Yep no problem as long as I'm not being point blank told I'm wrong with no real good evidence I'm pretty reasonable. I actually would prefer balancing issues taken care of so we have variety.
The few that honestly will are usually the ones who will start to realize that NoeD has been holding them back, but it also creates the same issue that Ruin does. A lot of people cant shake it because they have relied on it way to long.
Have you tried Pig by any chance? The one thing she does is teach you to end chases asap. It could help you out for those scenarios that you mentioned.
I would write a topic on second chance perks, but honestly I dont use them nor care enough to make a thread for much of anything. I wanted to do a pig idea like yours, but figured against it. I could do second chance perks, but rarely if ever do I get bothered by them.
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Ah, I wish I was any good at Pig. I have had good games with her, but for some reason I can't get a handle on her. Legion on the other hand, I can tend to end chases quickly once I start finding people.
It's kinda like Demo. I've never had a good game with Demo.... or Spirit for that matter. Some playstyles I just can't brain for some reason. That's one reason I don't want Legions playstyle to change, but it's more that I find Legion very very fun.
Back to pig though, I have been watching Scorp on Twitch. Here's hoping that helps. (It also doesn't help that only Legion has all perks T3)
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*raises hand* I do. 😁
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Sigh... do i need to explain why killers playing very often these two perks. Besides most of the people play BBQ because for points. And the killer side gets bored if they see genrush, endless chases, etc. That's why they play ruin, etc. That's the reason why many players playing these perks.
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Relax, only really skilled killes don't use BBQ/Ruin. (Folks with 2000+ hours mainkiller farm mode off)
Try distortion and stick doing gens even with ruin.
Beware, sometimes it can be truly humiliating playing against someone who doesn't use bbq/ruin.
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BBQ is annoying. I originally bought this game before that annoying perk came out. I enjoyed HIDING and when the killer came looking. I would stay hidden. But then BBQ came in and ruined it for me. I now regret buying the game. I am not good at pallet looping and especially having to hide in the locker is really lame.
TBH if they run BBQ + Iron Maiden. Welp. HEH... gg me.
Which comes down to the big strat of running BBQ. Most of these good survivors I play against, as The Killer. If there are 2 survivors left. The other survivor DC's so the perk doesn't activate. Very smart on their part. Simply put. I don't run BBQ and learned to play WITHOUT it from the start of the game AND then I learned not to use it. Because SWF easily outplays it.
Bottom line is. The perk is OP as heck in the lower ranks and pointless in the high ranks. If it was a HEX. It would have been perfect.
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If it was a Hex no one would run it, no one wants their potential BBQ stacks to be squandered at the start of the game.
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Stop being tunneling little shits and maybe we'll stop running borrowed time and decisive strike. As for adrenaline, it's a reward for getting all 5 gens done. And dead hard is counterable. Just light tap.
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Cool necro.
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I got you OP, we all have to now switch our ruin to Mindbreaker and BBQ to Cruel Limits or better, replace these with no perks at all because that is pretty much their overall value.
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I agree, make some other perks as good so we have a reason to use other things instead.
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I think that BBQ itself is fine. The larger problem with BBQ is the blood point gains. It means that killers who run BBQ can always run purple and pink add-ons every game. And quite a few of the add-ons are really broken with BBQ. Spirit's Mother Daughter Ring, Hag's Mint Rag, Billy's Moon shine, Huntress' Infantry Belt or Iridescent Head. Notice how the add-ons that stack with BBQ are the most complained add-ons in the game.
I think that's because these killers are the killers most likely to run BBQ and they also get the best add-ons to run with BBQ.
BBQ is fine. BBQ Blood Point Bonus is broken.
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Suggestion: Reduce the blood point bonus to half or 40%
Changing how BBQ works is a Big NO, it will increase face camp killers and it would not be fun, it is more fun to have a killer that chases you around rather than a face camper, sure 4 or 3 of you or your team might survive against a face camper but it will be toxic and removes the horror,thrill and challenge of the game
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Agreed
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Hit the red 4head
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I mean, if a survivor runs self care he is bad
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