Why Self-Care is Broken Beyond Belief, and How I Would Fix it

@Maxi605 said:
Well, there's perks that counter the time of healing, if you nerf self care you need to nerf a ######### ton of killer perks, is fine as it is...

This Nurses Calling so you know where they're at, Thanatobia for speed decreases, Mangled for debuffs etc.

Thanks for the thread, I often read threads about SC being op, but it's the first time I read smth with real numbers and I'm seriously wondering what the devs thought when creating this perk now...
A decrease to 25% would probably be a good nerf, though I would rather have SC removed than having teammates wasting 40 seconds, because they won't try to get help. Removing SC would make this more of a team game anyway.

If you say that people use self > @shootaman777 said:

Self-Care; In case you're new to DbD and don't know what this perk is:

Self-Care is a perk that allows survivors to heal themselves infinitely with no item, at 50% of the normal healing speed. This means that, as opposed to the 10 second heal from fellow survivors or self-healing with medkits, Self-Care takes a survivor 20 seconds to heal themselves. It is a teachable Claudette Morel perk.

Any DbD player can tell you that this is the single most powerful perk in a survivor's arsenal. This perk is a staple at every rank, and the difference in survivability and capability between having/not having this perk, is immensely large.

Every player has access to this perk, as due to the 2.0 update, each character starts with a perk slot unlocked and all of the specific character's tier 1 perks unlocked. A brand new player has tier 1 Self-Care on their Claudette.

Now that we've got that out the way, here's why it's broken, and what I would do to fix it:

1) Self-Care makes relying on other survivors for heals less efficient than Self-Care healing, and as such makes healing other survivors a waste of time and irrelevant.

-I posted this in DbD Alliance Discord's #dbd-discussions chat, and rather than editing it into a wall-of-text style analysis, I will be leaving it as-is, so that this post is somewhat more interactive.
"
So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?

So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?

Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.

And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.

So, isn't Self-Care actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency?
"

-How I would solve this problem, is by nerfing the healing speed of Self-Care down to 25% of healing speed, so that Self-Care'ing takes 40 seconds, and as such Self-Care'ing will never be more efficient than finding a fellow survivor to heal oneself. The people who played DbD before Self-Care's recent buff will know exactly how long this will take to heal, since this is more or less the former healing speed of tier 1 Self-Care. The current 20 second heal would become a 40 second heal, effectively making Self-Care a perk for emergency situations, but not something to be abused the hell out of, like it is now.

2) It is as powerful as 4x We'll Make It. 4 survivors healing each other in 5 seconds each, takes 20 seconds. 4 survivors healing themselves with Self-Care at the same time, takes exactly as long.

-If Self-Care is more powerful than 4x We'll Make It, when We'll Make It provides the largest healing speed bonus possible, just imagine by what margin it blows all other healing perks out of the water. Figured I'd mention that.

3) It completely negates a killer power - Freddy's/The Nightmare's

Back when Small Game was an absolute counter to the Trapper because it highlighted his traps with an orange aura within 6 meters (I believe it was 6 meters, but it was so long ago that I'm not entirely certain), it got gutted because of its potential to bully the hell out of the Trapper since Small Game/Saboteur was meta at the time (as well as for the devs to be able to say that there's a perk that finds totems, since totems were new at the time).

How I'd nerf Self-Care in this regard, is to change it so that in a match against Freddy/The Nightmare, Self-Care does NOT give skill checks. At all.

So, what do y'all think?

@jiyeonlee
@yeet
@fuzzyhobo
@Sarief
Apparently, editing proper spacing into the OP got the thread removed, so I'm reposting it here as-was before the edit that removed it. I'm relatively new to these forums, but now I know what NOT to do, at least. Figured I'd @ the people who originally commented on the thread, in case they're still interested.

If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.

@Master said:
Maxi605 said:

Well, there's perks that counter the time of healing, if you nerf self care you need to nerf a ######### ton of killer perks, is fine as it is...

Are you refering to the new clown perk? You can hardly call that a counter

And even nurses calling can be countered, you just heal outside the range

A Nurse's Calling (Doesn't make the time go slower but helps finding survivors healing), Thanatophobia, Clown Perk (however is called) and i asume there's others, As there's ADDONS for killers that do the same with repairing and healing...

Brady said:

Stop trying to touch Self Care. It's not needing any adjustments, buffs and nerfs, at all.

@yeet said:
healing in general, along with self care, needs changing
it's just too strong

While they need some adjustments you as a killer have tools that help you, it's a refusal to use those tools either at all or effectively that's the biggest issue. The same thing killers say ti survivors complaining about BBQ etc.

@yeet said:

alright mister "killers keep their addons"

Ah yes the Logical fallacy insulter strikes again, I guess you missed where I said it was probably a bug as well. But then you usually have nothing but insults anyways so I expect nothing less anytime I see your replies.

There is many ideas as a way to nerf selfcare. I originally proposed that we buff the self care healing speed back to normal and then instead of the selfcare being a complete heal it puts you in a no mither state. You dont drop blood, you still limp and your grunts of pain are heavily reduced and you still go down in one hit. This effectively makes it a good enough heal cobbled together with what you find in the environment until you can get proper medical attention.

In addition to that i would buff the selfcare medkit healing efficiency just enough so that you can get 2 full self heals out of a brown medkit. This in effect encourages players to make trade offs. If you want full self heals without other peoples help you need to bring a medkit.

@HellDescent said:

@shootaman777 said:

@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self > @shootaman777 said:

Self-Care; In case you're new to DbD and don't know what this perk is:

Self-Care is a perk that allows survivors to heal themselves infinitely with no item, at 50% of the normal healing speed. This means that, as opposed to the 10 second heal from fellow survivors or self-healing with medkits, Self-Care takes a survivor 20 seconds to heal themselves. It is a teachable Claudette Morel perk.

Any DbD player can tell you that this is the single most powerful perk in a survivor's arsenal. This perk is a staple at every rank, and the difference in survivability and capability between having/not having this perk, is immensely large.

Every player has access to this perk, as due to the 2.0 update, each character starts with a perk slot unlocked and all of the specific character's tier 1 perks unlocked. A brand new player has tier 1 Self-Care on their Claudette.

Now that we've got that out the way, here's why it's broken, and what I would do to fix it:

1) Self-Care makes relying on other survivors for heals less efficient than Self-Care healing, and as such makes healing other survivors a waste of time and irrelevant.

-I posted this in DbD Alliance Discord's #dbd-discussions chat, and rather than editing it into a wall-of-text style analysis, I will be leaving it as-is, so that this post is somewhat more interactive.
"
So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?

So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?

Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.

And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.

So, isn't Self-Care actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency?
"

-How I would solve this problem, is by nerfing the healing speed of Self-Care down to 25% of healing speed, so that Self-Care'ing takes 40 seconds, and as such Self-Care'ing will never be more efficient than finding a fellow survivor to heal oneself. The people who played DbD before Self-Care's recent buff will know exactly how long this will take to heal, since this is more or less the former healing speed of tier 1 Self-Care. The current 20 second heal would become a 40 second heal, effectively making Self-Care a perk for emergency situations, but not something to be abused the hell out of, like it is now.

2) It is as powerful as 4x We'll Make It. 4 survivors healing each other in 5 seconds each, takes 20 seconds. 4 survivors healing themselves with Self-Care at the same time, takes exactly as long.

-If Self-Care is more powerful than 4x We'll Make It, when We'll Make It provides the largest healing speed bonus possible, just imagine by what margin it blows all other healing perks out of the water. Figured I'd mention that.

3) It completely negates a killer power - Freddy's/The Nightmare's

Back when Small Game was an absolute counter to the Trapper because it highlighted his traps with an orange aura within 6 meters (I believe it was 6 meters, but it was so long ago that I'm not entirely certain), it got gutted because of its potential to bully the hell out of the Trapper since Small Game/Saboteur was meta at the time (as well as for the devs to be able to say that there's a perk that finds totems, since totems were new at the time).

How I'd nerf Self-Care in this regard, is to change it so that in a match against Freddy/The Nightmare, Self-Care does NOT give skill checks. At all.

So, what do y'all think?

@jiyeonlee
@yeet
@fuzzyhobo
@Sarief
Apparently, editing proper spacing into the OP got the thread removed, so I'm reposting it here as-was before the edit that removed it. I'm relatively new to these forums, but now I know what NOT to do, at least. Figured I'd @ the people who originally commented on the thread, in case they're still interested.

If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.

@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self > @shootaman777 said:

Self-Care; In case you're new to DbD and don't know what this perk is:

Self-Care is a perk that allows survivors to heal themselves infinitely with no item, at 50% of the normal healing speed. This means that, as opposed to the 10 second heal from fellow survivors or self-healing with medkits, Self-Care takes a survivor 20 seconds to heal themselves. It is a teachable Claudette Morel perk.

Any DbD player can tell you that this is the single most powerful perk in a survivor's arsenal. This perk is a staple at every rank, and the difference in survivability and capability between having/not having this perk, is immensely large.

Every player has access to this perk, as due to the 2.0 update, each character starts with a perk slot unlocked and all of the specific character's tier 1 perks unlocked. A brand new player has tier 1 Self-Care on their Claudette.

Now that we've got that out the way, here's why it's broken, and what I would do to fix it:

1) Self-Care makes relying on other survivors for heals less efficient than Self-Care healing, and as such makes healing other survivors a waste of time and irrelevant.

-I posted this in DbD Alliance Discord's #dbd-discussions chat, and rather than editing it into a wall-of-text style analysis, I will be leaving it as-is, so that this post is somewhat more interactive.
"
So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?

So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?

Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.

And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.

So, isn't Self-Care actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency?
"

-How I would solve this problem, is by nerfing the healing speed of Self-Care down to 25% of healing speed, so that Self-Care'ing takes 40 seconds, and as such Self-Care'ing will never be more efficient than finding a fellow survivor to heal oneself. The people who played DbD before Self-Care's recent buff will know exactly how long this will take to heal, since this is more or less the former healing speed of tier 1 Self-Care. The current 20 second heal would become a 40 second heal, effectively making Self-Care a perk for emergency situations, but not something to be abused the hell out of, like it is now.

2) It is as powerful as 4x We'll Make It. 4 survivors healing each other in 5 seconds each, takes 20 seconds. 4 survivors healing themselves with Self-Care at the same time, takes exactly as long.

-If Self-Care is more powerful than 4x We'll Make It, when We'll Make It provides the largest healing speed bonus possible, just imagine by what margin it blows all other healing perks out of the water. Figured I'd mention that.

3) It completely negates a killer power - Freddy's/The Nightmare's

Back when Small Game was an absolute counter to the Trapper because it highlighted his traps with an orange aura within 6 meters (I believe it was 6 meters, but it was so long ago that I'm not entirely certain), it got gutted because of its potential to bully the hell out of the Trapper since Small Game/Saboteur was meta at the time (as well as for the devs to be able to say that there's a perk that finds totems, since totems were new at the time).

How I'd nerf Self-Care in this regard, is to change it so that in a match against Freddy/The Nightmare, Self-Care does NOT give skill checks. At all.

So, what do y'all think?

@jiyeonlee
@yeet
@fuzzyhobo
@Sarief
Apparently, editing proper spacing into the OP got the thread removed, so I'm reposting it here as-was before the edit that removed it. I'm relatively new to these forums, but now I know what NOT to do, at least. Figured I'd @ the people who originally commented on the thread, in case they're still interested.

If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.

A Nurse's Calling is a useless and worthless perk if survivors have half a brain and don't heal near the killer. It doesn't counter Self-Care in any way unless the survivor using Self-Care is playing stupidly. In which case, you could use your ears and eyes to tell you that that survivor is healing, and didn't need a perk to do it for you.

Sloppy Butcher gives a 25% healing speed penalty. 25% of the 50% speed that Self-Care has, is 12.5%. So, with Sloppy Butcher survivors Self-Care at 37.5% of the normal healing speed, healing in 26 and 2/3 seconds ((100/37.5)*10=26+2/3). You're telling me that those 6 seconds will entirely counter Self-Care? That's a funny joke.

Coulrophobia gives a 50% healing speed penalty within terror radius. Which is only useful on two maps, since they can be nearly covered in the killer's terror radius - The Game and Haddonmemes. On every other map, it's 100% useless if the survivors have half a brain between them. And on top of that, survivors with the other half of their brain won't be healing within the killer's terror radius in the first place because of A Nurse's Calling.

The mere idea that you'd suggest that a killer has to use 3 perks to counter a single survivor perk, is ludicrous. Doesn't that tell you how insanely powerful Self-Care is, when you suggested having to dedicate 3 perk slots to even slightly start at a counter to it? Because you're forgetting that survivors also have 15 other perks that the killer has to plan accordingly for with that last perk slot you've left them. Every killer perk, since they only have 4, has to be as strong as 4 survivor perks for that killer perk to be balanced and therefore worth using. So, if anything, you're only proving the argument that killer perks are trash, as well as that Self-Care is beyond ridiculously broken.

If you loose a survivor and let him get away and heal that's your own fault. No need to blame it on a perk

extremely disingenuous to claim that's why people think it's overpowered

Ok here is the solution: all survivors start injured with auras revealed to the killer, remove pallets from the game, the entity will block a window permanently after a vault, bbq and chili no longer has a range, no ds. Will that help?

@HellDescent said:
Ok here is the solution: all survivors start injured with auras revealed to the killer, remove pallets from the game, the entity will block a window permanently after a vault, bbq and chili no longer has a range, no ds. Will that help?

ah yes the classic "resort to straw man when I lose the argument"

With the premise that I don't like SC and I know it can be strong, I'd like to add a couple things:

• the base healing time is 12s as far as I know. It doesn't change the comparison with other perks, but still it means SC takes 20% more time than you think.
• SC has the disadvantage of forcing a survivor to stay in a location for a long time. This makes him more vulnerable and is a big disadvantage: imagine being unhooked: if you get healed you can run away after 12 seconds, if you self heal first you need to find the right place, and then you need to stay there for a long time, giving the killer ample time to find you.
• Your comparison with WMI is wrong imo. 4 survivors using Self Care take 24 s to be all healed. That means the killer ideally could down them all in 24s. But one survivor with WMI can heal (alone) another one is 6 seconds: that means that after that time the survivor is back in action. In 18 seconds 3 survivors would already be healthy and operative, and this not counting cooperative actions that would make this time even shorter. So even just one WMI is way better than 4x SC.

In any case I think proposing to reduce SC healing speed to 25% is ridiculous. Even just 40% would make a difference in time efficiency, because in that case being healed would always be better than self-healing, especially if you take into consideration gen repairs (you could repair more if you first get healed and then cooperate with the other survivor instead of letting him repair alone while you heal yourself).
About the removal of skillchecks: no. It would make Self Care even safer since skillchecks bring the risk, although small, to reveal your location to the killer.

@yeet said:

@powerbats said:

@yeet said:

alright mister "killers keep their addons"

Ah yes the Logical fallacy insulter strikes again, I guess you missed where I said it was probably a bug as well. But then you usually have nothing but insults anyways so I expect nothing less anytime I see your replies.

you're a liar, i have no reason to converse with you properly

Still can't refute my statements so as usual you resort to insults again.

@yeet said:

@HellDescent said:
Ok here is the solution: all survivors start injured with auras revealed to the killer, remove pallets from the game, the entity will block a window permanently after a vault, bbq and chili no longer has a range, no ds. Will that help?

ah yes the classic "resort to straw man when I lose the argument"

This is rich coming from you who uses Straw Man's all the time.

@Sehkmet said:
devs already were trying to implement this:
canceling self care would resume it to 0% of the bar instead of keeping the progress (the progress that other players did on you wouldnt be affected)

Which a bunch of survivor players had already said was a good enrf before they even considered it. But for some killers they want to nerf it into the ground to be completely unviable or be removed along with DS.

@Sarief said:

@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

ps: like nurse's calling stops self-care in anyway at high ranks

So because you don't like the otehr sides perks they're cheats rigggghhhttt. So since survivors don't like NOED, RUIN, NURSE's etc that makes them cheats using your logic. The killer might have this perk well that means I need to bring this one and so on. Well then what if it's this killer, well then I need to bring this perk.

Also if you don't think nurses calling doesn't help with sc you're in denial.

@Sarief said:

1) learn English.
2) I don't like imbalanced perks. you like them? gtfo.
3) killer perks have to change game. Survivor has to adapt. Not the other way around
4) survivors don't like anything
5) NC does not help. Survivors counter it OR survivors use it. It helps only against noobs who heal not under pallet loop. It does not stop/slow/hinder healing in anyway and if you are that close to killer, killer can hear you anyway. it's only useful on wraith, since he hears worse in spirit realm
6) Survivors have perks that counter specific killer = ok. Survivors have perks that counter all killer + specifically counter few killer + change gameplay = cheats. If you don't see this, you're in denial.
7) Noed, ruin = are balanced. Ruin should be buffed, tbh. Had problem with it only once, because killer was laggy af.
8) you didn't refute this point:

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

in any way

1.I know English just fine but apparently you totally missed the sarcasm where I stretched out right.

2.You mean you don't like perks because you don't like them. Just because you saw a perk is imbalanced doesn't make it so. also the only one who should do option 2 would be you because you apparently hate logic.

3, All perks are used to change the game, not just 1 side because you say so. Both sides have to adapt to each match since killers, addons, items, perks, maps are all different.

4 "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens.

Did you magically do a survey of every survivor player in the game to be able to back up that claim? We both know the answer to that one.

5.So if it doesn't help why do top ranked killers use it then? I mean if it's such a worthless perk why would they even use it. Again we both know the answer to that one so that's another false claim.

Also it doesn't stop that's true but if the survivor is within the killers terror radius the killer knows where the survivors at. So the survivor has to stop the healing thus NC does in fact stop, hinder, slow SC.

You also can be outside the killers audio range and not be heard while healing but if within the terror radius the killer will know you're there..

6.Both sides have perks that counter specific players on the other side or did you conveniently forget Hangman's Trick to counter Sabo Jakes or sabo anyone. That's just one example and if we use your logic since the killers have perks that counter specific survivors and perks that + cheating. So by your logic that'd mean you're in denial.

7.There's quite a few killer mains on here that'll disagree with you on that claim as well as quite a few survivors. I'll leave @SovererignKing to explain how the 1st part of your statement is wrong.

8.That's your opinion but so far I keep refuting you. Also perks aren't cheats no matter how much you want to complain about them. You don't have to bring 3 perks, I've seen killers run Nurses and do fine without any other debuffs. I've seen killers not use it and instead run other perks they like and do just fine.

Lastly the devs are already going to fix SC so that if you stop the heal the progress is reset to** ZERO**. If after that you still can't deal with SC then the problem is you not SC.

@powerbats said:

@Sarief said:

1) learn English.
2) I don't like imbalanced perks. you like them? gtfo.
3) killer perks have to change game. Survivor has to adapt. Not the other way around
4) survivors don't like anything
5) NC does not help. Survivors counter it OR survivors use it. It helps only against noobs who heal not under pallet loop. It does not stop/slow/hinder healing in anyway and if you are that close to killer, killer can hear you anyway. it's only useful on wraith, since he hears worse in spirit realm
6) Survivors have perks that counter specific killer = ok. Survivors have perks that counter all killer + specifically counter few killer + change gameplay = cheats. If you don't see this, you're in denial.
7) Noed, ruin = are balanced. Ruin should be buffed, tbh. Had problem with it only once, because killer was laggy af.
8) you didn't refute this point:

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

in any way

1.I know English just fine but apparently you totally missed the sarcasm where I stretched out right.

2.You mean you don't like perks because you don't like them. Just because you saw a perk is imbalanced doesn't make it so. also the only one who should do option 2 would be you because you apparently hate logic.

3, All perks are used to change the game, not just 1 side because you say so. Both sides have to adapt to each match since killers, addons, items, perks, maps are all different.

4 "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens.

Did you magically do a survey of every survivor player in the game to be able to back up that claim? We both know the answer to that one.

5.So if it doesn't help why do top ranked killers use it then? I mean if it's such a worthless perk why would they even use it. Again we both know the answer to that one so that's another false claim.

Also it doesn't stop that's true but if the survivor is within the killers terror radius the killer knows where the survivors at. So the survivor has to stop the healing thus NC does in fact stop, hinder, slow SC.

You also can be outside the killers audio range and not be heard while healing but if within the terror radius the killer will know you're there..

6.Both sides have perks that counter specific players on the other side or did you conveniently forget Hangman's Trick to counter Sabo Jakes or sabo anyone. That's just one example and if we use your logic since the killers have perks that counter specific survivors and perks that + cheating. So by your logic that'd mean you're in denial.

7.There's quite a few killer mains on here that'll disagree with you on that claim as well as quite a few survivors. I'll leave @SovererignKing to explain how the 1st part of your statement is wrong.

8.That's your opinion but so far I keep refuting you. Also perks aren't cheats no matter how much you want to complain about them. You don't have to bring 3 perks, I've seen killers run Nurses and do fine without any other debuffs. I've seen killers not use it and instead run other perks they like and do just fine.

Lastly the devs are already going to fix SC so that if you stop the heal the progress is reset to** ZERO**. If after that you still can't deal with SC then the problem is you not SC.

1) but you don't read what I write. What am I supposed to think?
2) If everyone sees the perk is imbalanced than maybe it should be looked at. i've looked - it is imbalanced.
3) No, survivor perks have to counter killer AND help survivors adapt; killer perks have to change the game to make game harder for survivors. Right now it's the other way around, it's imbalanced bullshit.
Where did you see me hate logic. refer to 1.
4) I've seen survivor mains complain about everything. Per se, if you mean they hate everything at the same time - no. Each "group" hates it's own thing, and each survivor is in multiple groups. There is not a thing that survivor mains do not "hate" -___-. refer to 1
5) 1. they don't. Since survivors started to assume NC, there is no reason to. 2. reread what I wrote (refer to 1) they heal when they're near loops. NC does not stop it, killer going for survivor stops it. At which point NC's kinda useless.
6) Never seen killer perks counter anything on survivor side perks. You did? Also, for killer to use 3 perks to counter one (out of 16) - BS definition to me.
7) You can disagree if you have arguments. Both perks are totems and have counters. What's your argument?
8) Being imbalanced = cheat's to me. Having to bring perks to counter survivor perks is imbalanced. It's simple math 4 cannot counter 16. Especially if you need 3 to counter 1.

@SovererignKing said:
@Sarief

Barring the other points, as Powerbats said, I’ll tell you now that NOED is not balanced. Ruin could use a tweek to make it less susceptible to be made irrelevant that is true. 

NOED is a crappy cheese, and the only perk I consider a crutch for Killers. It a cheesy “Comeback” perk that rewards failure. Sure, the game isn’t balanced and Survivors are too strong, thanks to Gen Rushing being too easy to pull off, thanks to Looping making it a nightmare to catch anyone. However that’s not justification for a perk like NOED. 

Good Killers can be cucked by bad map balance, bad mechanics, unbalanced Survivor perks, this is true. However the opposite is also true. Killers who are legitimately bad at the game can easily get carried hard by NOED. Killers that absolutely do not deserve to get much can get a ton.

Take this Huntress for example:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwMKJtVdFeY

Couldn’t land a hatchet throw to save his life. Missed even regular swings. Spent the whole match just trying to tunnel one dude out. Got one other person... Then NOED. Snowballed the whole damn team. You may use the defense of “break the totems!” I did, but only a SWF can coordinate knowing if they broke all 5 totems. It’s really unrealistic to expect 4 randoms to make sure they got all 5 totems. 

I for one would rather the balance the game and get rid of crutches like NOED. It’s just not fair legitimately bad Killers can get carried by one perk. Same as DS, it carries bad Survivors. 

Side Note : Honestly when it comes to SC, they just need to give it limited uses. The whole reset to zero thing is kind of stupid imo. It’s the Killers fault in the first place the Survivor got away and was able to self care. YOU as the Killer failed to track your prey properly. The problem with self care really is how little it means to be injured while body blocking. The developers just need to limit it to 3 uses l, so Survivors have to be more judicial. 

Lastly, Spint Burst needs a change that you have to be running for 3 seconds before it activates imo. That way it doesn’t just cuck Ambush Killers so hard. 

Knowing devs, they probably going to implement totem counter or make the sound global for survivors. They were planning to buff solo, see no reason they won't do this thing.

DS is crutch - it has no counter.
NOED has counter - break all 5 or break hex once it's activated.

in the vid survivor obviously didn't do it. Did not hide and made mistakes during chase. getting one hit at this point is ok in my opinion. Hiding near exit gates when you expect killer to come is the strategy to use. (+1 more strat to use at this point) since the killer won't camp gates -_- Plus she did not camp hooks. Survivors healed when she had noed. under hook.
In that game, survivors could really up their skills and not make mistakes like that. Because of this pile of mistakes you get what you see. Expecting NOED at end-game is basic.

also, your point is basically: "bad killer allowed to do all gens so he should not be able to punish us for rushing gens". Which is.. strange, at least. What if he was using the strategy to kill one person and then use late game (noed/remember me/blood warden) to kill remaining 2/3 ?

your point about SC is also invalid. Why do we have "play with your food" in the first place?
Letting injured survivors go and focus on other survivors who are more threat (doing gen in your face/has toolbox, flashlight/ tbags) should be acceptable and should not be just "take 25 seconds to heal". Without SC it would take
1) finding another survivor or medkit
2) running to the said survivor or checking boxes.
3) hiding away from killer when he passes by.
SC makes all of the above invalid.
No, as a killer I expect them to get healed. But I also expect them to be hindranced (not sure of the word to use, so "making up" words) by it.
With SC killer is FORCED to tunnel survivor. And so, survivor are complaning about tunneling, fully knowing that they are causing it in the first place. Because time to hit another survivor is, strictly speaking, bigger than 25 seconds.

@Sarief said:

I claim it with arguments. I present analysis and say exactly why it is broken
Your argument is "your argument is invalid, because it's you who thinks that".
Do you feel the irony?

Your arguments have no factual basis, you claim something is broken because you claim it is. That's your whole argument. You make up stats then claim they back you up.

Yes my argument is your argument is invalid because it is, I've provided you with facts as have others. You just refuse to accept that your facts don't hold up to scrutiny. When you make up facts they don't withstand the scrutiny given them.

Just as your claim that Noed and Ruin are fine even though that's completely false. Which is why I said I'd leave that one to @SovererignKing to explain to you since he's a killer main..The only irony I feel here is that you keep using the same refuted claims and then claiming they back you up.

The devs could come on here and post data points and yet you'd still claim those data points were wrong. The top ranked killers and survivors could point out the errors in your post yet you'd still claim them to be wrong.

@powerbats said:
The devs could come on here and post data points and yet you'd still claim those data points were wrong. The top ranked killers and survivors could point out the errors in your post yet you'd still claim them to be wrong.

I will answer later, since I'm busy, but this one point I just can't...

Ok, let me show you this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5ZvLlza6IM

18:20

top used perk: self-care
top 10 survivor load-outs = 100% use SC and SB, varying only 3rd and 4th perks.

also, could not find exact stream, but here is discussion from it:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/1700542332320207723/

simply put: 84% of survivors pick the perk.
You also have to remember that not all survs have it when they play. That would be totally different number.

So, now that we're done with stats, do you see that you're wrong on this one?

ps: and YES, they claims were, in fact, wrong!!!

@SovererignKing said:
@Sarief

Your “counters” for NOED are just a paltry as Survivors whining that Enduring and Unnerving Presence are “counters” to DS. 

So what? We just all hide while the dude she hooked slowly dies while we sit there with our thumbs up our arse? Just wait out our inevitable death cause “might have NOED!” That’s laughable. Nobody knew he had NOED because the last guy she hit down was before the last gen popped. Also, I didn’t say he camped, he tunneled. Even with tunneling the crap out of the first dude he caught, he still took all 5 Gens worth of time. 

11 nearly 12 minutes of time is not a Gen Rush. Are you kidding me? You want Gen Rush, here : 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kbtr4xM67o
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j9dM4oNPA18

First one : 4 minutes 10 seconds
Second : 5 minutes 50 seconds (WITH RUIN!)

THOSE are Gen Rush matches. 

Also, no he didn’t use Bloodwarden or late game strategy.

Lastly, Play With Your Food is an obsession perk. Those perks are designed to be a risk/reward perk. You take a great risk with PWYF (Letting your obsession go, or not even finding them) in exchange for a great reward if you do. It is a hinderance if they SC. They waste time healing. Not as much mind you, but it’s a frigging PERK, it’s supposed to be good.

I agree it needs something to tone it down, limited uses would be a nice tone down so they can’t just blow it over and over. Over-reliant Survivors would fall to pieces just as well. Injuries would carry weight, 25 seconds and a self care charge. That’s 25 seconds of someone off Gens. Besides, like I said, quit dodging the fact YOU as a Killer screwed up and LOST TRACK of your prey in the chase. You still get a small reward for injury by the Survivor having to waste 25 seconds of time healing. 

how in the world are they partly? They disable perk before it activates OR they disable it after it activates. You can also not get hit and avoid killer. You can help the tunneled survivor OR you can let him die. 1 kill is OK, you're not on comms. Should you let him die? if it means 3 get out - yes, since if you try - all 4 die. Overaltruism is bullshit.

If you want direct counter - use Hope.

And to compare DS to NOED is bullshit. If you say breaking totem (or all dull totems) is not counter, I don't know how to talk to you.
DS - escape killer grasp. No downside, no way for killer to counter. Enduring reduces time of stun. So, instead of escaping 100% of time and stunning for 4 seconds, they stun for 3 seconds. Which is what, counter perk 10%? laughable argument.
Unnerving is even more BS. It counters it how exactly? the effects are all up and hitting skill checks is not counterable by killer in any way. Making it hard is the same as using hex:ruin. At some point survivors just start to hit all great skill checks. Because, oh #########, they're not hard.