question to old dbd players
Comments
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Nothing is boring. Boring is a stupid word used wrong in this community. I hate the word Boring. But I know what you’re saying. I’d say the cannibal as a whole, and how BHVR threw him together in probably like 3 hours honestly. He really needs a rework treatment and to actually be put together in a nice genuine way. He and his movie legacy was given the full GG EZ treatment.
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Nurse changes/nerf to her basekit
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I'd tell you. But my post would get flagged by someone for no reason.
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Having played as a 50/50 since release myself, I get what you're saying. You're not wrong. But I also feel like you're understating how powerful survivors were (and still are). I remember 8 second self cares, I remember pallet vacuums, I remember double window shack, I remember old DS, I remember how fast gens used to be, I remember 90 degree fast vaults, I remember old BNP, and I remember everything else that came during the dark ages. The only good thing about those days was that nobody knew how to loop yet. Survivors used to be pretty much impossible to catch, and now they're not, but to this day they STILL control the momentum of the game and won't ever admit it. A survivor has safe tiles all over every map besides the Hawkins Lab, and can legit force a killer to drop chase since everything a killer does is on a timer. Yeah, survivor has gotten harder in some ways. You can't literally cheese the killer for 5 gens without a little bit of effort, instead of every chase having a foregone conclusion like they used to. What a tragedy. I'm not even going to touch on that 70% (Freddy only) kill rate you cited, because those stats are problematic. And I'd be saying that if the kill rate was halved. Any statistician will tell you that stats without context are useless. FULL STOP.
Anyways. You know what bothers me the most? People being unwilling to see that most complaints from the killer side comes from how the game feels. And game feel is just as important as balance is, because that more often than not dictates whether people will stay. For instance, the nurse is the strongest killer in the game. But she feels like clunky ass to play, so guess what? Nobody plays her. Part of it comes from her difficulty, but those changes didn't do her pick rate any favors either. Acting like it had no effect is ignorant. Right now, the killer side of the game is going down a path of clunky nonsense with overly oppressive cooldowns and power bars all in the name of survivor fun. Since for the last year and a half or so, killer fun has taken a back seat to that of survivors'. With every patch survivors get more tools, even more information, and more ways to expedite their objectives. While killer perks always come with a ten page requirement list before they can be activated (like Dead Man's Switch) and every "new" killer power is a remix of an old one with extra steps. I'm not saying survivors haven't got nerfed, since I doubt the devs are "sided" by any means. But the changes to stuff like healing, insta heals or BNP is nothing compared to Ruin, the Legion debacle, and what I'm sure is coming for every other strong killer perk / ability in the near future. It's like they use a sledgehammer for killer changes but every survivor change ends with an item or perk that's still eminently usable.
Lastly, if the devs want to shoot for a "2 escape/2 death" balance then they need to actually reward killers for that scenario. Especially considering that survivors get rewarded even when they die, but once you're out of the baby ranks a 2k is treated like a loss.
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The worst part about comments like this is that you completely ignore that there have been nerfs to killers/buffs to survivors in the past as well. You make it sound like it's been completely one sided since the start, and it hasn't. And some of the things you mention HAD to be done for the health of the game, such as the end game collapse. The collapse wasn't added to benefit killers or nerf survivors. It was added to keep the game from being held hostage by players who got off on trolling and bullying others. And frankly, it's been beautiful.
Anyways, like i said. The devs have been doing the best they can with balancing am asymetrical game that gets new, game altering mechanics added to it every few months. Not only that, but the skill ceiling in this game continues to climb as both killers and survivors get ridiculously good at this game. Far beyond what the devs probably could've imagined. Balance in an environment like that is really hard to maintain.
It's perfectly fine to disagree with their choices. But ignoring one side of the story and complaining that one side has been the sole victim, well it just doesn't do much for your credibility.
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I remember 8 second self cares, I remember pallet vacuums, I remember double window shack, I remember old DS, I remember how fast gens used to be, I remember 90 degree fast vaults, I remember old BNP, and I remember everything else that came during the dark ages.
Right, that ties in with all the nerfs I mentioned.
Survivors used to be pretty much impossible to catch, and now they're not, but to this day they STILL control the momentum of the game and won't ever admit it.
And yet killers, myself included still made rank 1 back in the day. It was hard but even back then there were techniques to manage the sabo jakes and infinite runners. If a killer can provide enough map pressure, they control the momentum of the game, its not all or nothing, its just nuanced. If they can't or the survivor abilities are greater, they control the flow. It comes down to killer ability, survivors ability, map, perks, luck etc etc that's a better conversation to have as far as 'momentum of the game' is concerned.
I'm not even going to touch on that 70% (Freddy only) kill rate you cited, because those stats are problematic.
That's at all ranks, if you look at red ranks, the kill rate for all killers is around 70% which is better to focus on because that's your long term 'end game' player base and according to the devs, their focus point. At lower ranks you're having conversations about casual players and ease of access. You can say the data is problematic, but its better than half the 'because I say so' posts on this forum which are tied into a 'group think' mentality.
People being unwilling to see that most complaints from the killer side comes from how the game feels.
But the changes to stuff like healing, insta heals or BNP is nothing compared to Ruin
You kind of lost me here. You want to sight the all ranks data while saying survivors control the momentum of the game but then complain about ruin change? New survivors couldn't manage skill checks, let alone understanding 'hex' and 'cleanse' which resulted in 4k after 4k.
This is why its better to focus on 'problematic' data and move from there, rather than straight from your feels.
Nurse was a broken killer to begin with, breaking all the survivors survive mechanics and was introduced to counter infinites (which are now gone). Nurse should never have been released, its current state is fine.
Yeah, survivor has gotten harder in some ways.
The point is that swf and the devs thinking survivors would play 'sneaky sneak' at release is what created the nerf train, due to their 2 escape, 2 survive metric. The problem recently is that tribalistic killers haven't had to deal with any major push back, so they've lost their collective mind being unable to deal with it. But this is the devs failing to manage their community, the killer response is entirely predictable. The devs created an expectation over time, once that expectation changed, we see an innate human response.
Lastly, if the devs want to shoot for a "2 escape/2 death" balance then they need to actually reward killers for that scenario. Especially considering that survivors get rewarded even when they die, but once you're out of the baby ranks a 2k is treated like a loss.
100% agree. They've changed this a little over time but the focus on a 4k rather than a 'good game' for everyone is part of the reason this community is so toxic.
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The devs need to stretch the length of the match without adding anything of value. Healing has slowed, the time it takes to do a gen is slowed, opening the exit gate is slowed, all to make the match last longer to give the killer more time to find survivors.
If you want matches to last longer, add more content, and things to do, don’t just slow everything down. I would rather have to do an extra gen than to have all gens and gates take longer.
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I actually agree with most of what you said.
My post wasn't a comprehensive list of ALL things, BUT as far as the trajectory of the game is concerned it has absolutely been: killer buff, survivor nerf.
Getting back to my original post the issue is that swf and the devs thinking survivors would play 'sneaky sneak' at release is what created the nerf train, due to their 2 escape, 2 survive metric. The problem recently is that tribalistic killers haven't had to deal with any major push back, so they've lost their collective mind being unable to deal with it. But this is the devs failing to manage their community, the killer response is entirely predictable. The devs created an expectation over time, once that expectation changed, we see an innate human response.
Hence my entitlement post.
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Can we only pick one thing?
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Extraño los eventos, pero las de verdad, esos que tenias que hacer algo para que te daran una recompensa y con ello comprar skins
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After my experiences are infintes not gone. I mean, maybe I am wrong here.
I have started to play dbd shortly after the Legion got released because I wanted to play them, because I have found the idea of a stabbing killer appealing.
So, I have never seen something from before that time.
But if I think on the map (my name memories are terrible), with this huge fabric in the middle and the window on the right side after the entrance in the south of it, then it feels for me as would infinites still exist (as example, there are also other similar parts in other maps).*
Thats not a rant from me to that topic, just my thoughts about it.
Edit: *You can baiscly give up to hunt a survivor if he jumps through this window, if you are not a Nurse, or if he is not the last survivor living.
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What you have now is pseudo-infinites. Basically a whole bunch of prerequisites have to be in place before it becomes an 'infinite' but even then I'd struggle to call it an infinite.
At release you had something COMPLETELY different. If a survivor got to an infinite it would be impossible to catch them unless you could effectively mind game them. This was due to no bloodlust, no entity blocker and more open windows, you didn't have the RNG of some windows being closed.
At release, as a killer, if a survivor went to an infinite you could do one of 2 things, leave them and focus on the rest of the map or force other survivors into the infinite creating a traffic jam. Making it easier to hit them.
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Original infinites were very different to what people call infinites nowadays. There's still loops and especially windows that make it really not worth it to chase the survivor as they can probably vault it 3 times with minimal risk, but to give an example of an infinite back in the day...
Groaning Storehouse, the map that sometimes has a very strong window open used to not only always have that window open, but there were two windows on the same wall and no entity blockers. The killer didn't have time to walk around no matter how hard they tried, and also vaulted windows slower. It was 100% impossible to EVER catch a survivor there unless they massively screwed up, unless you were Trapper and could trap one or both windows because they could just vault the other window whenever you went through one of them. And again, no entity blockers or bloodlust (even though bloodlust wouldn't help at all in this particular situation).
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I'm probably an outlier here, Freddy Rework. I actually didn't mind old Freddy and had fun playing him, my favorite build being paint brush m&a for zero terror radius. I felt he needed tweaks, not everything and the kitchen sink thrown into a single kit
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NOED is not a high tier perk, its a perk that may not come into play, either because the game ended before EGC, or because all of the bones where broken, or because the gens popped and doors opened before the killer could get to any of them. The killer experience is better...in some ways, and worse in others. Infinites are gone, but when they where removed pallet vacuum got buffed and hit boxes for survivors where made smaller, creating looping. It was finally gone after a very long time, but looping never went away; which is simply an exploit. Killer buffs come much slower then survivor buffs, and vice verse for nerfs. Killers will get nerfed after 'being looked at' for a few weeks to a month. Survivor advantages will be 'looked at' for multiple months and then nerfed...while getting a buff to compensate. Or survivor buffs will be presented as supposed nerfs. While killers get a few quality of life changes to try to make it seem like the devs aren't biased. Balance is based on 'fun', but usually seems to be focused on new survivor 'fun.
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Well, thank you then @oxygen and @FearedbytheGods .
I had thought that those would be one of the last infintes in the game, because people call them often so. A little bit deeper insight is always appreciated.
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for me the weirdest change is still the vault animation of spirit. It looks stupid af.
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OOF. You better message this guy
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Welp...what makes you think that "[...] looping never went away; which is simply an exploit."?
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@Vetrathene What makes you think that looping is an exploit? :o
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Far as I have read about it, was looping not planned by the devs.*
Depending on your point of view, you can see it as exploiting. Or as a feature, born from a surprising ingame behaviror of the survivors (for at least the devs).
*I am maybe wrong here. If that is real, then whas it long before I have started playing dbd.
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Its literally exploiting a difference in hit boxes to keep a killer from gaining as much speed as they can and was never originally intended.
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Been around since Doctor was released and seen lots of changes. The most boring in my books would be adding variants to the preschool. I dont know about other people but each variant still feels like the same old map to me.
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Yep. Another perfect example of very bad design decisions by the dev team and look at how they try to program around their mistake. Instead of adjusting the hitbox sizes we now have bloodlust, exhaustion, blocked windows by the entitiy, blocked windows by RNG (due to very bad map design too)...etc
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The loss of my pink perks 😡
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The moonlight items being disabled. That was the "best" offering that a survivor had and it didn't really affect the game outside of mildly changing the brightness/darkness of the map. It was really neat to use it and a murky and have the entire map be even spookier, especially against someone like Myers. It was an atmosphere thing. They could've at least allowed them to still have them in custom games at the very least. There are very few game influencing offerings - its just.. Oh are you gonna get mori'd after being hooked? Are you going to spawn together? Is it going to be this map?
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Remember how little the first killer mains asked for? All they wanted gone was pallet vacuum, more hooks, remove infinites and nerf self care and sprint burst.
The devs have given them all that and so much more but they continue to cry about everything from face camping with traps under hooks to body blocking the baement stairs.... it truely amazes me how ignorantly killer mains will claim the devs are surv bias when I've seen them meet their demands. It's very obvious the devs care about both sides even if they do things poorly... ik ruin was a big hit but I have no doubt the devs will rework the game accordingly so that killers dont HAVE to bring ruin every game. The perk kinda sucked for everybody and it's amazing how much ruin dictated if a killer won or not.
Im pretty sure at this point the devs take the killers complaints with a grain of salt (kek) considering they have shown their best interests tend to be only for themselves. I have seen far more survs consider balance changes for killers than vice versa.
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I miss the old matchmaking and rank reset. You used to be able to derank faster to try out new killers and you had evenly matched games. Tryhards would ascend to red ranks and you'd never see them again after a couple days of the reset. Personally I didn't match that often against cloaked red ranks purposefully deranking to mess with lower ranks, but even then it was just one match. Now it is pretty boring having to use the same killers to get decent points because you can't practice killers with less mileage since generators pop left and right and every survivor you find is a loop master. Nurse crippling didn't help either
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You miss 2 points:
-In the time inbetween, Survivors have got new toys (perks, items and so on). The first killers would as example have never been able to complain about mettle of man, because it had not exist in the early days. That said, I would have had no problem with any survivor perk, if not point two would happen on a regulary bases:
-Killers often get changed very hard. Imagine survivors would have gotten on the same way nerfed as the Legion with the rework. Imagine, that you as survivor get every time a stun, if you miss a skill check and oh yes... Imagine you get always a half hour feeled stun after you have use your gen repair ability and also that gen repairs from now on take 5+ minutes to repair, for each one of them. Just to comapre something to the cutted down dw abilitie.
Would you be happy if bhvr would solve the gen rushing problem on the way how I have name an example here?
I bet survivors would flood the forums and start to complain until the devs have undone their changes, or they simply would left the game for forever.
And I have here yet just talk about the Legion. I have not even mentioned the Nurse and other possible things, the devs can screw up in the feature.
Edit: And now I need my first coffee at the morning I have gotten to grumpy :|.
Post edited by Talmeer on0 -
I anticipated you bringing that up. But, you really can't compare surv reworks to killer reworks. All survs really have is the base game mechanics and perks. Every new killer can drastically change the balance of the match. That's why the game is so hard to balance. Some killers can destroy anybody (billys) and some can barely do anything (LF).
What new add ons and items? The wedding ring? :p. Most items have been nerfed on the surv side or have changed every once n awhile. Bnps and insta heals and insta blinds have all been hard nerfed.
Idk how killers can not agree with what happened to legion. He was released in a really terrible state. His design was brokenly stupid. It sucks but it had to happen. Hell eventually get a rework just like freddy did who is now s tier. You have how many killers to play instead? I just dont think that's a fair comparison at all. There are so many killers that add to the never ending variables that they have to consider when balancing them.
And nurse. I mean most people by 2018 werent investing in her anyways so I admit her nerf was kinda random and not needed but the ones that did play her well, like cmon. Nurse was broken af lol.
This is why I have a hard time sympathizing with killer mains. They are never honest about their own side's problems. But I see plenty of survs admit surv issues. I rarely ever see a killer ready to have an honest conversation. I'm not personally attacking you to be clear. Just my overall frustration when talking to killer mains.
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Anyone else remember the worst update ever added to dbd? The gold ol howling grounds of 2018. Im not sure who thought that making it so flashlight saves happened no matter when you blinded the killer during pick up was a good idea. It was somehow the worst and best experience I have ever had on dbd.
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-My opinion as a killer and Legionmain is, that the Legion was a "bit" broken. I say a bit, because the exploits needed to be fixed and some addons needed a rework, without any doubts. All what had gone above that was too much. In videos you have often got a wrong image of the Legion because there were so many people out there, that had always play them with the exploits, or the op addons.
But I as a guy who had him play as main, can say to you, that the killrate of the Legion to pre patch times from 20-30% was nothing surprising for me, because besides the exploits and the op addons had the Legion to that time not much to offer, besides one important thing that even the today Legion can not offer anymore: Fun!
If you need evidence for my words: Just show me 1 op pre patch Legion video without exploits or op addons. Because I am a friendly guy, I say it directly to you: Don't waste your time searching it. Such a video did not exist for reasons.
-I guess you are right that balancing dbd must be a nightmare. I don't doubt that. The more important is it imo that the devs listen to the experts of the thing they like to change and that are the mains. In case of the Legion, the Legion mains. In case of survivor releated topics, the survivors who know best about the stuff the devs like to work on.
What would be wrong on it, if the devs would have asked: "Hey look Legion-mains, by the Legion is this and this a problem... How should we solve the problem on the best way?", Or: "Hey survivor mains, we need to change perk X, how would be the best way to do it?"
Of course, they have not to 100% to do it then on the way, the killer/survivor mains say it to them, but they should keep their words and maybe warnings in mind.
Would the devs have had listen to the Legion mains as example, we would today not have this discussion. Of course, after the rework some threads would have been up, but they would have had slowly die out. But because the devs have not care for the people that play this character the most, we have a ongoing discussion until the devs do finally something right (whenever that will be).
-I can not use a other killer and have the same fun as before, as with the Legion. The Legion was the reason why I have bought this game and even if we forget this - there is no other killer in the game that allows the player to fast-multistab survivors. Would I be a m1 killer lover, I would be happy now. The problem is, I am not such a guy and imho should a game everything do that is possible, to keep its customers happy.
-I had never main the Nurse. Just do sometimes a few matches for the dailies, but the Nurse mains seem to be pretty fed up about her changes.
I think it is not bad if strong killers like her exist (pre patch), as long as we have so many weak killers in the game. Would that not be the case... Would I nothing say from my more... casual knowing of the Nurse.
@siren_sorceress I think we have similar mindset. We coming just from the opposit side. Don't see my posting please as a rant. It is just a explanation how at least I and maybe also others see it.
Btw. the generator thing was just to make you thinking. I doubt that bhvr would ever do it and in my eyes it would also not be necessary, but without a doubt, I believe that survivors would go then rampage in the forums and would be really annoyed by this new "gameplay mechanics".
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Well, I think I may have a different understanding of looping...but in a general sense, isn't it just "ring-around-the-ros'ing" the killer around pallets, jungle gyms, the shack and so on and forth? Considering that both pallets and windows have been around from the very beginning of the game, how is looping a killer in the sense I just described an exploit? True, in a rather narrow meaning of the term, I actually am exploiting (in the sense of using) the ressources given to me, but in the broader and much more common sense I don't think that looping is an exploit, understood as the abuse of hitboxes in this case and not intended by the devs. Am I missing something crucial here? And let's be honest: both hitboxes and dedicated servers have led to some ridiculous hits in the last couple of months.
And about what changes I deem "boring":
In the beginning of DbD, you had killers and surv' whining on both sides. Be it about how op a Killer was, be it about how op and endless a Surv's possibilities to fool a killer were; however, I feel that this consciously unreflected and biased discourse has gotten even worse over last couple of years. It has gotten so far that even playing completely normally, without a build or items that one might perceive as "toxic" gets you insulted and griefed on - on both sides. The feeling of entitlement of some survivors as well as the constant whining of some players about how unfair it is to play a certain Killer is almost unbearable. A few days ago, I played as a Claudette and got facecamped without having done anything ingame one might consider toxic. Upon asking the Killer why he chose to facecamp me, he told me that the mere choice of playing a "Blendette", and by the way, I was wearing neon-coloured cosmetics, got me facecamped. It's not the fact that he facecamped me that got me pensive, because all of the other surv's had brains, did gens and eventually escaped which is a win for me, but more so the fact that he made a choice to lose a pip and blood points based on what character someone else played. Another time, when I was playing Killer, I got heavily insulted for getting a 4k although playing quite cooperatively: I didn't hook the survs immediately but waited until I hit everyone, didn't tunnel nor camp... and almost got 32k bps.
For me, it seems that this feeling of entitlement, of "I deserve something" has been growing and growing ever since DbD got released, once again, on both sides. And the more people complain about non-substantial stuff, the more boring it gets.
Post edited by Codela on0 -
I think I get what you're saying and that you're coming from an open-minded place, but I believe that getting crucial information from only specific-killer and survivor mains is the worst idea a developer can do in order to get information or input on how to balance the game. It's kind of as if you'd ask extremist niche-groups of parties about their ideas on how to run and govern a given country. Both survivor and killer mains are per definition subjected to their own subjectivity and partisanship, hence the term "main".
You'd have to ask players who play as killer and as survivor equally in order to get the most nuanced and impartial feedback and/or new players and their feeling about the game since their perspective and perception is highly unfiltered.
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Thank you for the kind words. I try to be open minded, far as I can. I have learn on the hard way that it is necessary imo to pick a side in those forums. Still I try always to think on both.
It's almost like in a jail here imo :). If you just running around alone, bad things can happen^^.
What you say is true, but I would never also wash the opinions of the mains just away.
I mean, they have potencially the most knoweldge and they will also always be the ones that have to life most with those changes. A survivor is maybe upset about killer xyz, but in the next match he will already see a other killer. The same can we say about survivor perks, if they are not really far spread like some are today.
All for what I hope is, that they don't forget the people who actually would like to play a specific character before they drastically change him.
Small buffs or nerfs for something I find much better imo. Like we have seen it for the Trapper (if it goes live), or also the Pig. The pig nerfs were maybe hard, but they were better as a complete rework with even more annoying drawbacks on top of it.
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lmao this post just blew up
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SWF and post game chat. THis game was gold without it
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Battle passes... It's an absolute disgusting format of generating engagement. Imagine being pactually bound to grind out a single game for a limited amount of time, non competetivr game, as a matter of fact. When I heard they're implementing this cancerous diarrhea into the game I got flabbergasted.
The tomes? Awesome. Love challenges, love the extra blood points. What I love the most is actually being able to take my time and actually having fun, instead of a chore.
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The hilbilly nerf tbh
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Geez this threads age.
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