Killers should have *some* stagger effect

How would a 5% stagger affect a window loop to the point of absurdity? Stagger was added to remove some infinites, however, that was prior to window blockage and it effectively removed any and all reason to ever go to some parts of the map unless a hex totem happened to be there. 5% of what survivors experience is large enough of an effect to have some slight punishment without affecting the game too much(seriously, we're talking 0.3 seconds here at most, while survivors experience 3 seconds at most).

1. killers and survivors are quite balanced.
2. if they are so unstoppable, why does a FLASHLIGHT make them drop a survivor? Why do killers need a perk to reduce pallet stuns? Why do they stumble when they miss a basic attack? Thats a very bad reason as a counter argument
3. yes, stagger was added to help defeat infinites, back before windows were blocked by the entity, back before some windows were straight up removed, back before some god pallets were removed/altered. In the current day meta, killers not having any punishment from going for a drop instead of walking around, especially when things like wiggling out of grasp is already so weak that solo survivors tend to use DS(seriously, even things like Flip-flop, boil over and break-out combined, perks DESIGNED to help people escape the killer grasp more easily, still dont work because hooks are practically everywhere now), having some punishment by dropping from a height really wouldnt hurt the game.

But no, you have a killer revving a chainsaw at 99% while dropping a great height without impacting them, you have a huntress fully charging a hatchet without fail. All it means is that they would have to fire their ability before landing on the floor. All it means is that dropping from a height would have the same/similar effect on wiggle speed as dropping a survivor normally does, or perhaps having a chance of dropping the survivor after a large fall(seriously, why does dropping a survivor on the floor "weaken" the grasp by 30% otherwise?).

Now, why else should you actually want a stagger? Because then you can design perks around it. I mean, for the wiggle thing, you already have iron grasp to counter that, but you could easily add a perk that actually works like BL, reducing the stagger and give a haste bonus, without adding any exhaustion(which has many uses) without it being too much of an OP perk.

TL;DR

Current survivor stagger is too much in today's meta and a lot of vanilla gameplay does not get used at all because of it, making quite a lot of maps boring to play on. Adding a tiny amount of killer drop punishment could easily give motivation for survivors to actually try some killer sided structures rather than avoiding it like the plague, giving killers more chances of hitting survivors as their structures are more commonly used and forcing killers to use abilities before they touch the ground instead of cheesing.

"It'd just make looping easier if you use balanced landing" There, fixed it for you.

I mean, balanced landing pre-nerf was literally used to remove 75% stagger while they tended to use deadhard instead. And killers were relatively fine. The only map that truly was hell to face people using old BL was Haddonfield. But with old BL nerfed, which massively buffed killers on quite a lot of maps outside of Haddonfield, there isnt a real reason not to add killer stagger. And again, it doesnt need to be anywhere near a chase ending stagger. Just a tiny stagger enough to force killers to play slightly smarter, rather than brainlessly dropping off a height.

You're the one with a bias here. I play both survivor and killer equally nowadays.

Besides, its not the same advantage/disadvantage here. But going by your logic, lets make a list:

1. Survivors can vault fast. Killers can vault slow.
2. Survivors get a big stagger. Killers get NO stagger.
3. Survivors can use some pallets to their advantage. Killers can use other pallets to their advantage
4. Survivors constantly use survivor sided structures, dodging tons of hits. Killers get NO use out of killer sided structures, getting no easier hits
5. Survivors walk slow. Killers walk faster than survivors can run.

Seems like there are 2 oddities in this list.

Perhaps altering killer stagger would give a reason for survivors to try out killer sided structures that are actually a lot more challenging than survivor sided structures, but they are not survivor viable at all. Would it make survivor sided structures stronger? Yeah, slightly, but killers were able to deal with those structures when Old BL reduced 75% of survivor stagger constantly, so they can easily deal with a 5% added stagger.

Or are you going to claim that no one could be caught when BL gave a permanent 75% stagger reduction? Because if you do, then you, sir, are blind.

Uhuh, but im going to repeat this once again:

Up untill 7 months ago, BL gave a permanent 75% stagger decrease. Which gave a ton of incredibly strong loops, yes, but most of them were managable. It was literally the only reason some killer-sided structures were being used and they were actually fun to use as there was still a big risk of the killer cutting you off quite easily. Coaltower only had the problem of having a window where there should be none. It was the only reason to use the left side of harvesters, because that vault is incredibly killer sided. It was the only reason to get on top of the Piers in backwater swamp. Nowadays, survivors stay in survivor sided structures only and run from survivor structure to survivor structure, skipping all the structures that would be beneficial for killers.

Nerfing BL gave a MASSIVE nerf to a lot of loops. Adding in a tiny bit on killer side wont affect the vast majority of loops and allows for new killer perks/skills to be implemented.

True, but thats why I added technically. It would be a reason to use Nurse over other killers. Especially since the amount of Nurses I see is lower than the amount of Demogorgons.

Killer sided structures:

Thompson house(actually got a bit of a nerf), there was no loopability and the only reason to go there was a generator.

Ironworks coaltower, the rafters upstairs are only used for the chest and perhaps to try and hide while the killer goes downside, because neither the killer or survivors truly have a reason to be up there.

Left side of harvesters, if a survivor uses the left side without balanced landing, its a free hit for killers. The right side is heavily survivor sided.

Unsafe pallets, they are pretty much only usable for a killer stun, dropping the pallet without a stun gives the killer quite the advantage, especially if they try looping it, which they cant for more than 10 seconds without giving a hit.

Doorways, Mount Ormond's skilodge, which used to be heavily survivor sided due to a lack of openings, is now actually a killer-sided structure, if the basement spawns there, there is 1 godpallet in the whole building added to compensate, if the basement spawns in the killershack and you try looping, you might aswell run in a straightline on an open field.

Slowing gap closing and being survivor sided are different things. Revving a chainsaw slows a killer with 15%, increasing the gap, but speeds the killer up with at least 15% and allows for an instadown. Would you call that slowing of gap closure survivor sided? I dont.

As for pallets, there are TONS of pallets in game that are very killer sided that can guarantee a hit within 10 seconds which you wouldnt get with other loops. If a loop decreases the time of getting a hit compared to the average structure: killersided if it increases the chance of a hit compared to the average structure: survivorsided.

If you need an example for a killer using a pallet in their advantage: I can use tons of unsafe pallets to easily bait them to hop over a pallet once, guaranteeing me a hit while they go for a second pallet vault, lowering their damage boost they could otherwise use to run to a safe structure and shortening the chase by a massive amount of time. A decent survivor can loop me around a safe structure for roughly 60 seconds, so if there is a pallet I can use that forces them to go a different direction because I reduced their damage boost, to a structure where the average survivor can loop me for 20 seconds, that is a killersided pallet, wouldnt you say?

I mean, how do you think survivor sided and killer sided maps are labeled that way? If the survivor has a higher chance of survival compared to the average map, then its survivor sided. If the survivor has a lower chance of survival compared to the average map, its a killer sided map. Or are you gonna claim there are no killer sided maps because there are no maps that guarantee a kill?

And again, yes, haddonfield was broken for old BL. But outside haddonfield, there were fairly few issues with BL. There were enough outside haddonfield to nerf the perk specifically rather than blocking haddonfield windows/replacing windows with doorways. But the point is, averagely, the PERMANENT 75% decrease didnt affect the killer's ability to get a 4k on the vast majority of maps. So if a 75% PERMANENT stagger decrease for survivors allows a killer to catch up with a survivor enough to get 4k's, then a 5-10% increase on killers should practically have 0 effect on killer statistics. It would slightly buff haddonfield, sure, but again, survivor stagger is based on the height they drop from. Having a 0.025-0.05 second stagger when a survivor would have a 0.5 second stagger doesnt affect the chase. It literally takes longer for you to blink. Are you gonna complain that blinking affects your ability to chase, because you lose track of the survivor for 0.08 seconds?

Correct, but my reasoning is more because of:

1. A killer picking up a survivor from the second floor and dropping down twice rather than taking the stairs has 0 impact, wiggling is already extremely underpowered to the point where survivors rely on DS more than Flip Flop, break out, unbreakable(to speed up recovery) and boil over combined because the effects of those perks, even combined, are practically useless unless someone is actively taking down hooks.
2. Killers can charge up their ability that allows them to get a free hit/down without risk by dropping down, having the loss of speed by charging their ability fully negated without any repercussions.
3. a lot of structures are currently ignored simply because its 100% risk, no reward for survivors. Adding a tiny stagger would change that to 98% risk, some reward, and if RNG is on their side, a huge reward IF they can pull it off. And with the amount of people trying the 4% on a hook, all they need is 2% wiggle room for them to risk it.

And yeah, there is a ton of things that are balanced, but there are some places where having 0 stagger just gives a killer too much of an advantage in some chases, which leads to point 3 of my reasoning. Why ever go in a direction where I would be giving the killer 100% a free hit when I could go in the opposite way, having a 99% chance of still getting hit but a 1% of getting a pallet stun? I rather run across an open field towards a strong pallet, possibly getting downed before I even get there, than going to a structure where there is 0% chance of loopability.

As for the stagger, well, 3 seconds is enough of a stagger for a killer to vault a window from the 2nd floor, land and still hit his ability. Which, in case of iri head huntress, pinky finger clown, billy and bubba, is practically a free instadown, similar to a full on bodyblock. So why make a second story window vault as strong as a full on bodyblock? As for adding new mechanics. Im actually all for new mechanics simply because it allows more creative perks and killer builds, as most killers are boring to play unless you have a very specific build. Having addons that could use the stagger to "root" a demogorgon into a stronger dash, or getting a perk that allows for a dash in a specific direction that you can combine together with a lunge, or giving nurse a massive distance where she can teleport to(meaning she can decide to drop down while charging and teleport practically halfway across the map), or having a plague have an addon that increases survivor stagger while sick, giving them a reason to cleanse more often, or forcing survivors to bleed slightly more/recieve a mangled status right after a drop that lasts for a few seconds, Clown could recieve a reload buff while staggered or give him a more powerful throw as the result of the stagger. Adding new mechanics that kinda nerf one aspect, allows them to buff other aspects of the game to balance out the viability of characters. I mean, Calm Spirit got a relatively weak mechanic added, but it makes it a ton more viable to run against a lot of killers. So while a killer stagger is technically a nerf, it can make a ton of things viable to add, making current weak killers a lot easier to buff without making them overpowered.

How? Seriously, HOW would it defeat balanced landing? I mean, does bamboozled or entity windowblocks defeat the purpose of Lithe, Quick&Quiet and Dance With Me? Does Spirit Fury defeat the purpose of pallets? Does Nurse defeat the purpose of structures? NO. And why not? because you can still use other windows, you still get a bonus out of using a pallet stun vs someone who uses spirit fury, you still can use structures against nurse.

Or better yet: does killers walking at 115% defeat the purpose of survivors running? No, and thats a 15% difference.

A 5% stagger is nothing compared to a 100% stagger. Its literally going from a 100% difference to a 95% difference.

No, there was 0 loopability on the top floor. It was literally just being in a chase, there was no usable window, no usable way of gaining distance, it was literally just dragging the killer away from people who were working on generators nearby without the killer hearing those generators. If those generators were done, there was no reason to really go inside the house. As for the bottom floor, the only way to lose the killer was using the lockers, there were no windows, no way to increase the distance, only lockers. Baby survivors would head for that building because it was a building, but any decent survivor would rather run through the cornfield and use the corn to disappear than go for the building. If a cornfield is a better option than a building, then yeah, the building is quite killer sided.

Yeah, its used as a hiding spot because there is no reason to go there otherwise. Any smart killer would not go for anyone who is already upstairs.

And yeah, you're correct with that, but the problem being is that 1. if its a fast vault, you can hear and see it and walk towards it before they drop. 2. if its a slow vault, you hear them making sound while falling(because any height thats higher than a haybale is worth yelling about nowadays). So even if they did it once, they would be giving you a free hit unless you were somehow are so taken by surprise that muscle memory just pulls you back to the right side without a second thought, while the same old boring loop on the right allows for more time being wasted, even if it still guarantees a hit.

There are only 2 unsafe pallets that I encounter that actually increase survivor distance rather than decrease it. So its literally a one time use of increasing distance while you drop the pallet, after that, its more a killer structure.

Just because they run upstairs before you get there, doesnt mean its survivor sided. I can run from a killer shack generator in a bee line towards the main building through the cornfield before you go inside and see my scratchmarks. That doesnt make cornfields survivor sided.

My point was that if even a LF is behind you and starts charging up, he increases the distance, but his ability easily closes that gap and gives him an instadown, which is less time than a wraith having to uncloak. Let alone that bubba has the biggest potential and can theoretically down all survivors in 1 swoop. So no, on paper, its not survivor sided. The whole reason why bubba is bad, is because the only way he can use his potential uber strength, is to literally camp. His mobility is incredibly strong in a chase, let alone that to be able to use a locker against bubba, you need a frame perfect input. Bubba has his strengths, but his main strength is too niche of a situation that it requires a fully silent chainsaw, losing his red stain and terror radius, and not being seen by any survivors while he does so. Which pretty much requires Beast of Prey, Dark Devotion and/or Tinkerer. Let alone that Spine Chill alone would counter this anyway. Perhaps making Bubba invulnerable to some actions unless 2+ survivors are in chase(for example, no pallet stuns and bubba just charging forward, faster window vaults, instantly breaking through breakable walls without any stun unless multiple people are within lunge/swoop range). But in a 1v1, Bubba still can get an instadown more easily than most other killers. Not that he gets a 4k easily, but he sure as hell can easily get a 1k.

No, not really, they are literally forced to take a hit, or vault and take a hit. At least in one case, they could use Lithe and get out, but since very few people even use Lithe, they can choose to use the speed boost or the pallet vault, not both.

And just because something can be advantageous by survivors DOES NOT make it survivor sided. A survivor can take advantage of the drop in Hawkins, by literally reducing their time to go down by 7 seconds. Yet is that drop survivor sided? HELL NO. A survivor can go into the basement while being chased, pick a random locker and hope they dont get picked first, taking advantage of the basement lockers while at extreme risk of being found and hooked. Does that make the basement survivor sided? According to you, yes. Because they can take advantage of it. Unsafe pallets are a killers advantage MORE than they are a survivors advantage, that makes it killer sided.

As for uses outside, yes, coal tower not really, you could use bamboozle to counter that loop easily, ironworks, yeah sure. Blood lodge, not really, again, bamboozle. Disturbed ward, yeah, but disturbed ward had a pallet issue that allowed that loop in the first place. Campbell, again, bamboozle. Pale Rose, kinda, but you could easily leave them there as you could guarantee a 3 gen anyway, so you would literally allow the survivors to loop you when you have a 3 gen you could secure. Lery's not really, only when the generator was powered, and then again: bamboozle. Mothers dwelling, again, bamboozle, the game, not really an infinite, a long loop for sure, but far from infinite. Unless you count the security chamber in that loop, in which case, again: bamboozle. Ormond kinda, but that was because of the many windows, not because of BL. BL only allowed them to have a shorter infinite. As for the one window that allows a massive gap: again bamboozle.

Almost all of them could be countered by bamboozle, so yeah, there was only truly 1 massive issue other than haddonfield. The other ones would simply be longer loops than they should be, but just as managable as a survivor constantly blinding you with a flashlight everytime you're forced to vault/kick a pallet. "but that's forcing killers to use bamboozle when they just want to casually play". Yes, just as survivors were forced to either use Stake Out or BNP against Ruin if they wanted a casual game. Which is why Ruin was changed aswell.

Having a stagger in game, would reduce the need for DS in games, allowing for DS to recieve changes. DS and Unbreakable are so common, because wiggling is so weak and slugging is so strong. Adding in a mechanic that allows survivors to pre-plan and go upstairs first would force killers to either take the long way or give survivors less time to wiggle out. Let alone that it also allows to slightly nerf some very strong killers without making them too weak, while also allowing them to increase the strength for weaker killers without making them too strong.

You're ignoring a few things:

RNG for pallets, perks, random survivors ignoring to unhook you, unskilled killers that are able to recieve a hit when they shouldnt, latency ######### you over, Mori's, iri heads, random survivors taking down haunted grounds while you're the one being chased, randoms deciding to loop around your ######### hook and then blaming the killer for camping.

So no, if you're losing as a survivor, its at most 15% on you in the current state of the game. Yes, with a full 4 man swf, if they are all on my skill level, then still no, because most of the game comes down to mindgaming. If you lose as a killer, its 75% on you for greeding, 25% on the survivors making practically no mistakes. Stop ######### greeding for people, and perhaps you'll see why killers do not need buffs.

You can play the game perkless and add-onless with Billy, Huntress, Nurse, Spirit, Freddy, Trapper, Hag, Myers, Ghostface, Pig, Plague, Legion, and even Bubba for crying out loud, and STILL get a 2k with relative if you put your attention on the right person rather than simply chasing who you're chasing just because you're chasing them. Ever seen an Ayrun video? Guess how many of those killers would have actually gotten a 3k if they simply swallowed down their pride and went for the weaker links on the gens instead? Yeah, a survivor like Ayrun can loop a killer for 5 gens if the killer is predictable. But did they lose because Ayrun was so good, or because they refused to stop a chase they knew they wouldnt be able to win?

SO STOP WHINING ABOUT KILLERS NEEDING A BUFF WHEN THEY DO NOT, WHEN THERE IS A ######### VANILLA GAMEMECHANIC THAT REQUIRES A PERK TO COUNTER.

As for slowdown perks? Easy: take ruin, look out for a 3 gen, preferably with Ruin in the center or nearby one of those gens, make sure the survivors never get close to that 3 gen untill the end, grab surveillance, get tinkerer and discordance and tadaa. Impossible 3 gen that cannot be broken unless they allow you to hook the survivors. I mean, "If YoU'rE sO cOnCeRnEd AbOuT iT", there is a gen pressure build, if you lose that 3 gen, then its 100% your fault.