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Killers should have *some* stagger effect
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"3% doesnt last the entire game, it is per sleeping survivor, You almost never have that effect at maximum stacks." You'd be surprised how long survivors prefer not going for failing a skillcheck or running all the way to the opposite side of the map for a wake up. 5% regression adds up a lot, walking to the other side of the map will cost you more time than the punishment is on the gen. The only time people are actively being woken up is if one of them happens to be awake and there isnt a gen nearby, that or they'd have to be fully premade. Or ofcourse Freddy waking them up by hooking them. Other than those reasons, you're pretty much guaranteed a slowdown thats on max stacks when you need it to.
While you are correct that in some cases it might extend a loop, which is rare, especially as it pretty much requires a pallet to actually succesfully cash in on the stagger time difference(a 0.15 second difference on a window vault would still register a hit), so if you were too late for 1 window hit, odds are extremely likely that you would have been too late for a hit regardless. Especially considering that on the survivor AND the killer screen, they are almost on the floor and still get hit by the killer. The whole reason why old vault drops pre-stagger/old BL were so succesful were because of the time the survivors earned before the killer was able to reach the floor. Which was a 3 and 2,5 second difference. The 0,15 second difference is too insignificant of a difference in a chase overall.
"I would say it is the survivors fault when using paths with a dropdown that allow the killer to catch up." Then would you say a DS is the killers fault when the exit gate is open and basically guarantees a survivor the escape because they can easily crawl out within 60 seconds, regardless if the survivor performed incredibly stupid all game? Would you say genrushing is a myth because the killer didnt patrol the gens sufficiently? Would you say that people who have their asses being saved by their teammates over and over again due to their incompetence deserve the adrenaline heal+sprint after you've downed them because their friend on comms was keeping a gen at 99? That its the killers fault if OoO pretty much destroys a killer as long as the one with OoO keeps their aura hidden behind generators? Considering the FACT that there are tons of maps where a drop down is literally the only chance of escaping a hit in a chase but due to killers being able to charge their ability mid air(I mean, imagine survivors being able use styptic agent mid-air) guaranteeing a hit regardless, makes it either bad map design due to a lack of paths given, or having plenty of legitimate paths in the game but gamemechanics making those paths impractical. I am 100% of the second opinion, considering Haddonfield alone is proof that the only escape is often a drop. Hawkins' second floor generator only escape is a drop unless you can see the killer's aura going towards the stairs. Thompsons house second floor only escapes are drops or a staircase that is almost always a hit regardless. Bloodlodge's drop only works because there is a window nearby. If the basement spawns inside the school on Bradham's, the killer can reach the basement extremely easily from all sides. It's easily the strongest killer basement in the game due to killer accesibility. You can be going from the center tile of the map to the school's basement without agitation or iron grasp and still reach the hook(just barely) thanks to the double drop without any negative consequences, while the basement, long distance, should be high risk high reward for the killer. Would you really call it fair when there is practically no risk and a high reward to it, without the survivors making a risky move in the first place?
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Well, on the Freddy slowdown we can keep discussing. Actually no idea and we won't have a clear answer unless we fully test and measure that appropriately. I just brought that in as an example what slight number fixing can lead to. Forever Freddy is still annoying, but with the slight tweaks you at least have a chance now, old Forever Freddy was simply over once the second person was on the hook.
Not sure if you really remember the difference between old BL Haddonfield and new Haddonfield. The windows didn't give you such a big stagger effect. People with old BL gave them that much of an advantage that it was basically pointless for killers to chase them through houses. And I don't get what you are calculating there. Pls repeat step by step where you think there is a 2-3 second difference. And regarding the strange window hits, I'm pretty sure that is just on slow/medium vaults.
I think the DS example doesn't work well. If there is a DS possible on an endgame hooked survivor, then you hook that guy at most once during the match. If there are beneath that three other survivors alive that can manage to unhook that guy without you being able to make a hook exchange, or if you can't manage "at least" a hook exchange against 2 survivors coming for the safe, then yeah, all of these scenarios mean that you didn't perform well enough, allowing to get into that situation.
Beneath that, the arguments target certain perks and it doesn't matter if that is fairt or not. If not, change the perk. We are talking about a core mechanic, I don't see how OoO or DS is related to that. Like "DS is unfair, let's add killer stagger" pls what? And I would say it is "good" map design to have A FEW spots on the map that are more lethal than others. Still my argument, that this needs map awareness. If survivors run blindly around and then wonder why they get hit, then yeah, it's their fault.
Thompson house even got nerfed, it was a total death trap before, while the rest of the map was jungle gym to jungle gym. And you probably never saw someone drop in the correct moment, like when the killer is just getting up the stairs, and NOT when they see you. Because then you have a chance to get to the near pallets outside, when the killer needs to run down the stairs again. And Badham school is one of the strongest loops in the game. With the possibility to not spawn the basement, meaning if you get downed in there, you wasted a lot of time and a single protection hit could cause the survivor to wiggle free. Is that fair to the killer? Allowing to run the strongest loop again and again without any punishment? With the basement in school it is the same like getting downed at the shack with basement. It's up to you if you want to take the risk while getting a lot of value out of the loop, or if you leave it early. So yeah, I think it is fair, because it is more like a high risk, high reward for the survivor he needs to decide on. The killer just decides if it is worth spending the time if the survivor goes for that loop.
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Well, simple maths: in my example, the stagger was 3 seconds. In reality, the biggest stagger you can get as a survivor(I think) is a 3 second stagger in The Game. I've been calculating using those numbers, which is why I used 0.15 and 0.3 second staggers for the killers(using the same drop in The Game). Since 0% stagger(pre-BL) would mean you wont have a 3 second stagger and a 25% stagger(old BL) is about a 0.5 second stagger. Both lead to 3 seconds and 2.5 seconds of not being staggered that you can use to move around. Giving you a 2-3 second increased distance. And no, those strange window hits actually dont apply during a slow vault at all, as the game on both killer and survivorside register a slow vault properly on the server, because it can adjust for the latency difference due to the length of time. During fast vaults is when the "magic" happens, because its too fast to adjust for possible latency, meaning I could be on the floor(downstairs) on my screen, but are just on the opposite side of the window(upstairs) for the killer. Meaning that according to the killer's view, I should recieve a hit. Since the server works with killer priority, I get ######### over.
As for DS, if I ever use DS, I actually save my DS for the second hook rather than the first one. Simply because early game, there are more than enough generators where a 5 second stun wont affect killer performance too much, while a late game DS impacts the killer a whole lot more. Even I feel that DS shouldnt be activating once the EGC has started, simply because if I get unhooked with BT, I can tank 2 hits without any consequences. Which means that if NOED is somehow hidden extremely well, I can essentially counter NOED as a whole with 1 perk and 1 effect, and the killer cant do ######### about it. Let alone the fact that you have urban blendettes with self care who hide all game and cant be found untill the EGC starts, as that is the only reason for them to get out of their hidey hole, and then still carry DS just for that reason. It's essentially a place where someone is a massive coward and gets rewarded for playing brainlessly while holding control and sometimes hold m1 and are skilled enough to hit 1 "hard" skillcheck. Basically they wouldnt have deserved an escape, but they still get one due to having a perk and there is nothing you can do about it.
DS at this point is a core mechanic. Practically everyone has it and practically everyone uses it. It's comparable to Sloppy Butcher on M1 killers. It might not be a vanilla mechanic, but it sure as hell is a core mechanic.
"And you probably never saw someone drop in the correct moment, like when the killer is just getting up the stairs" This can only be done while you're not being chased in the first place. Allowing you to do a silent vault and disappear to the killer. If you are being chased, either you fast vault, letting the killer know to instantly turn back and get a hit, or he sees you slow vault, letting him know to instantly turn back and get a hit. I mean, this is like saying that Windows are OP against Spirit because she cant vault them while phasing, ignoring the fact that she can literally run around the windowed wall in 99% of the cases before the survivor finishes a fast vault.
"And Badham school is one of the strongest loops in the game." Not really, it used to be, but even then, Badham was still the most balanced map in the game, not favouring survivors or killers too much. It had the strongest loop and the strongest basement. Now the strongest loop got nerfed hard, but the basement has not.
"it is the same like getting downed at the shack with basement" No, its not. The shack at least as 1 pallet and 1 window at the top of the staircase with a very long wall inbetween to run away from a killer. Bedham's basement does not even come close to that safety. If the killer hits you at the staircase, he can and will hit you upstairs too. Without any easy way to create enough distance, while a shack allows the pallet to be dropped, forcing the killer to break the pallet or take the long way round, allowing a survivor to pretty much escape the killers grasp while the killer starts chasing someone else. Even if you include the pallet that spawns in one of the hallways. If you never been in the schoolbuilding before you were hooked, you have a 50/50 chance of going for the pallet because you cant see it untill its already too late to change your direction. If you happen to go for that pallet, the killer still can take the other path to catch up, not creating any distance that a shack pallet would otherwise. As for actually using the bradham school loop, doesnt factor into the matter. Because, like I said, you can reach that basement as a killer from the middle of the map. Its a very safe killer basement spawn for the killer.
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One error already in the beginning, which again shows how much difference tiny little numbers can make. BL has a stagger reduction of 75%, not 100%. So old BL had no 0% stagger, survivors HAD stagger after dropping, while killer had not, and still getting extreme value from the haddonfield map.
And I still don't get your maths, at least regarding your previous post when you talked about window hits and 0,15 time difference. There's a lot I don't get in this paragraph. Latency has nothing to do with how long an animation takes. It is just the timing, the POINT when you hit. It doesnt matter how long the animation took up to this point or will take to finish. What is the difference between pre-BL and old BL? There is no 0% stagger and 25% of 3 seconds are 0,75 sec.
And the main point why survivors with old BL could gain distance is the increased vaulting time for killers. Stagger would counter the longer vaulting time, and old BL removed that, allowing to get to the window multiple times without risking a hit, until the killer gets bloodlust. And that is the critical part I am talking about, that would happen to every vault drop loop on the saloon, on the coal tower, blood lodge, gideon observer room and the large drop you mentioned, both swamps main buildings, Lerys center room, all Hawkins cat walks, red forest temple and dwelling... there are enough "abusable" drop loops.
Back to your point with charging power. This would not be related to the stagger, you could still charge the power pefore you drop if you time it correctly. What you request in this situation is the effect the Demogorgon has with his shred. It gets cancelled as soon as he starts falling. To get this effect, you don't need to implement killer stagger. Just btw.
Disagree on the definition of core mechanic. Pickrate doesn't make addons and perks a core mechanic. And Badham basement is not safe? I mean, lol? It has MULTIPLE windows and 3-4 pallets, two of them being 100% safe! You can easily escape from the basement hooks if you use one of them.
But all the things don't really relate to the discussion of adding stagger to the killer. I still strongly disagree with most of your points, I simply experienced it in a different way. We could just discuss if one of us is too bad or misses experience or the opponents is missing experience to make proper use of whatever, but that would lead nowhere. And to the stagger thing, I'm still at the point that we have enough examples of small nuber changes that have huge impact. And that adding even 15% stagger for killers would extend chases on every map, when survivors make use of that.
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Crazy thought, because I'm just skimming the four pages of discussion so far, but what if large falls (heights approximate to the Ironworks catwalk or The Game's funnel, NOT the second-story windows of Haddonfield/Springwood) slightly manipulated the killer's camera instead of a stun?
Like, if your fall was 8 meters (an estimate) or greater, the killer could maintain their speed and momentum as normal, but their camera would be briefly forced down to look at the ground in a similar style to Nurse's fatigue or a pallet stun on Hag.
I don't think the smaller drops from the suburban houses (or the Temple's main floor) should have any kind of stagger though, as these are where most of the vault-drops occur. I think this might help balance the really big drops to help survivors mind-game these areas a little more (while killer briefly can't look up), while also not making the more average-sized ones worse for the killer.
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Killers definitely need some kind of fall stagger.
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I agree that small drops(altho, the temple does have 1 gigantic drop), shouldnt have any effect on killers too. As for a stun, thats not the same as a stagger. A stagger for survivors is practically a stun since you can no longer vault. However, if you were to drop from a massive height right next to a generator, you could work on the generator. You just lose all the momentum you gained and for a short amount of time(including charging things, so if you somehow flashlight something during a drop, you stop flashing once you touch the ground) you would slowly regain momentum. Camera manipulation alone wont really do ######### there, because you only need a direction and predict where some one goes. Which you can do blindly if you played enough.
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Yes, but that element of prediction is exactly what I was going for.
Most mind games like that (excluding the 1-sided ones which Spirit tends to pull) are a big part of what makes chases fun. If killer has to use a few more prediction skills when following survivors down drops (without suffering a movement penalty), or if survivors can try and bamboozle the killer after a fall, it opens up more opportunities for mind games to happen and for the players to, well, outplay each other (or at least feel like they did).
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in return you would have to in return you would have to increase the Stagger that the survivors receive if you want to know why I direct you to remember a perk called balance landing.
The reason this Park was so devastating was because of the reduction in stones which allow the survivors to take a lot more advantage of the distance that the drop gave them.
If the killer gets a stunning as well even if it's always something minor you're going to start to run into situations where it's going to become equivalent to Old balanced landing the survivor already gets a advantage because of the normal looping rules especially if the drop is through a vault.
Now that the killer is stunned it's going to be very easy for the survivor to just regain distance like they used to have balanced landing and just continuously loop around the area again.
Finally if you do end up increasing the stone that the survivor receives you now back in the same position where are the change was pointless has now you just even that out making it literally irrelevant whether you gave the killer the Stagger in the first place
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Alright: I will remember that for later
The reason the old perk was so strong, was that it was a 75% decrease in stagger. a 75% decrease in survivor stagger and a 5% increase in killer stagger are very different numbers.
No, not a single situation would be even close to old balanced landing. Remember when window vaults for survivors were reduced with 10% due to a QoL? Did that impact chases so much as old balanced landing? No, it barely even changed chases. Neither would 5%
"because of the normal looping rules especially if the drop is through a vault." And here I am back for your call out for BL. If stagger would need increasing because of BL, then it would need decreasing because of Bamboozle. Bamboozle alone is already part of the problem in the first place, increasing stagger because 1 perk exists that isnt as useful as it used to be(seriously, there are literally 3 maps in the game where BL is essentially a waste of perk slot). The whole reason why a tiny stagger would be needed is due to Bamboozle and some killers being able to charge their very powerfull ability mid-air.
No, false. The "increased" distance would be 0.5 meters at best. Thats not even enough to make a difference in a chase most of the time. A lunge covers up to 5 meters alone. You wanna claim that 0.1 seconds will allow for the same "old balanced landing" difference, where the difference in stagger was 2.6 seconds? You're literally comparing a 26x difference as equal? Alrightly, so, lets change generator times to 3 seconds rather than 80. I mean, its a 26x difference, so they must be the same. Or let sprintburst be lasting 78 seconds rather than 3 seconds, heck, they are essentially the same time. Or let unhooks take 0.05 seconds rather than 1.5 seconds. It's practically the same. Or let hooks take 13 minutes to respawn after they have been sabotaged, thats essentially the same as 30 seconds right? I mean, old hooks used to be gone forever, so its not like its like the old hooks. 13 minutes is faster than never. Do you see the ridiculousness of your claim by comparing it to old BL? 0.1 seconds increase isnt even close to the old 2.6 second increase. Stop trying to claim it is.
"Finally if you do end up increasing the stone that the survivor receives you now back in the same position where are the change was pointless has now you just even that out making it literally irrelevant whether you gave the killer the Stagger in the first place"
Well, no, because the killer would have a form ability interruption rather than none, which is still a huge difference. Stagger affects MUCH more than chase times.
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