Killers should have *some* stagger effect
Like, not even that much and perhaps triggering from a larger height, but it just doesnt make sense to me that a survivor needs 2-3 seconds to recover from a massive height before they can start moving again while a killer can be charging at 110-115% from with 0 punishment.
For example: jumping from thompsons house(I do love the new window tho, thanks for finally making that upstairs hook a tiny bit less strong), I get a 3 second stagger. This in itself is not a problem, I am not running BL and if I use Lithe, I lose about 60% of my speedboost, this all, mechanically, is fine. However, the killer being able to vault, drop down, charge a hit/ability while falling and not recieve any penalty from falling to the ground always felt a bit odd(especially while carrying a survivor, you'd expect a killer who drops down from Hawkin's second floor to the first floor to have some impact).
Even if the killer had like 5-10% of what a survivor experienced, that still would be a massive advantage while still being a tiny bit of a punishment and would make so many structures accessible for a chase rather than only being viable when you run BL. Aka, iron works rafters, hawkins drop(which was super OP because of old BL, but nowadays is pretty much guaranteed death), dropping from a second story window in pretty much any building, carrying a survivor while dropping from a height etc.
Basically, you have structures in game right now that are 100% guaranteed hits for killers unless a survivor is running BL. Since the BL nerf, most survivors no longer run BL unless they use a map offering in the first place. So a lot of in-game structures are avoided by survivors because its a guaranteed hit for killers. Now by adding a tiny bit of stagger in massive heights(which also cancels/reduces charge time when still charging), you add a reason for survivors to try pulling a high risk high reward play, which would give the killer a 95% chance on getting a hit, but add a reason for survivors to actually use killer-sided structures without BL.
Comments
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while i do agree, i just don't think that it must be 5-10% of survivor side stagger, mebe something like when killer blind - i mean thay still can hit, but not lunge durning fall, and 0.2 seconds after landing. this should be enough
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Pass..window loops would be absurd
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well, 5-10% is about 0.15-0.3 seconds at most, considering survivor stagger is about 3 seconds at most.
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This seems like it would be a nice little QoL update, since it is rather strange that Killers aren't affected whatsoever by taking a tumble! Something like a .5 second stagger after falling would be nice.
I think their reasoning is that some falls require vaulting a window (which the Survivors can do quickly, whereas the Killer cannot), so the Killer shouldn't be hindered after falling. However, I think there are enough vault-less heights in the game at this point that it wouldn't be too detrimental for Killers to stagger a little after falling!
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Not exactly, besides, haddonfield got a massive nerf when BL was nerfed. So giving it a tiny buff wouldnt be too much. Let alone that there are MANY maps that have killer sided drops that are never used by survivors, haddonfield is literally the only map that has a few survivor sided drops(second floor windows, not the rooftops, the rooftops would still be heavily killersided)
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How would a 5% stagger affect a window loop to the point of absurdity? Stagger was added to remove some infinites, however, that was prior to window blockage and it effectively removed any and all reason to ever go to some parts of the map unless a hex totem happened to be there. 5% of what survivors experience is large enough of an effect to have some slight punishment without affecting the game too much(seriously, we're talking 0.3 seconds here at most, while survivors experience 3 seconds at most).
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It'd just make looping easier
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Killer nerfs hit way harder than survivor nerfs..it would feel like crap and make the map balancing even more of an issue
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I personally don't think it's a Killer nerf, but you're entitled to your opinion! And if the first part of your message is true, then why don't Killers have built-in Enduring? Why is a simple wooden pallet so injurious to them? And why can a Survivor stick them with what is presumably a little wooden stick and they groan in pain for 5 seconds?
I play plenty of Killer in red ranks and I really don't see a problem with it. I don't even really see it as a "nerf" to Killer or "buff" to Survivor -- just something that makes sense and would be helpful to Survivors on places like the Blood Lodge building and the Mount Ormond balcony, since they currently have a massive stagger penalty without an active Balanced Landing.
You really aren't taking away from the power of Killer whatsoever by adding a tiny stagger after falling. I really can't see any situations that this would be "game-changing" for Survivors, like "wow, what a fantastic buff to Survivor, look, I can EASILY escape the Killer by falling from a balcony now!". It would just be a simple QoL thing. And since Survivors stagger so heavily after falling (which is currently a massive advantage Killers currently have over Survivors), why is it a bad thing to implement something small to balance it out slightly? Something that probably wouldn't even make a difference overall, but just improves the quality of the game experience. I mean, I think it's pretty weird that Legion can just fall down from the top floor of Hawkins and walk like nothing happened!
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*laughs in Nurse*
I mean, they already nerfed Balanced Landing to the point where it went from my Favorite Perk to collecting dust.
I wouldn't mind a stagger effect, but a true THOUGHT OUT stagger effect.
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I'm all for making killers have the same chase advantages/disadvantages as survivors. Give them the same stagger effects on a fall. Give them the same vaulting speeds. Give them the same hitboxes for rounding corners.
Or are you not so much for making things similar and just wanting to nerf killers out of personal bias?
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- killers and survivors are quite balanced.
- if they are so unstoppable, why does a FLASHLIGHT make them drop a survivor? Why do killers need a perk to reduce pallet stuns? Why do they stumble when they miss a basic attack? Thats a very bad reason as a counter argument
- yes, stagger was added to help defeat infinites, back before windows were blocked by the entity, back before some windows were straight up removed, back before some god pallets were removed/altered. In the current day meta, killers not having any punishment from going for a drop instead of walking around, especially when things like wiggling out of grasp is already so weak that solo survivors tend to use DS(seriously, even things like Flip-flop, boil over and break-out combined, perks DESIGNED to help people escape the killer grasp more easily, still dont work because hooks are practically everywhere now), having some punishment by dropping from a height really wouldnt hurt the game.
But no, you have a killer revving a chainsaw at 99% while dropping a great height without impacting them, you have a huntress fully charging a hatchet without fail. All it means is that they would have to fire their ability before landing on the floor. All it means is that dropping from a height would have the same/similar effect on wiggle speed as dropping a survivor normally does, or perhaps having a chance of dropping the survivor after a large fall(seriously, why does dropping a survivor on the floor "weaken" the grasp by 30% otherwise?).
Now, why else should you actually want a stagger? Because then you can design perks around it. I mean, for the wiggle thing, you already have iron grasp to counter that, but you could easily add a perk that actually works like BL, reducing the stagger and give a haste bonus, without adding any exhaustion(which has many uses) without it being too much of an OP perk.
TL;DR
Current survivor stagger is too much in today's meta and a lot of vanilla gameplay does not get used at all because of it, making quite a lot of maps boring to play on. Adding a tiny amount of killer drop punishment could easily give motivation for survivors to actually try some killer sided structures rather than avoiding it like the plague, giving killers more chances of hitting survivors as their structures are more commonly used and forcing killers to use abilities before they touch the ground instead of cheesing.
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100%, not just a simple 0.3 second stun(which survivor stagger pretty much is). And yeah, that would buff nurse technically, which a lot of old nurse mains probably wont mind.
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It wouldn't be a buff, it'd be nothing.
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Aren't most of the killers ghosts, monsters, and demons? Why would they feel a stagger from anything?
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"It'd just make looping easier if you use balanced landing" There, fixed it for you.
I mean, balanced landing pre-nerf was literally used to remove 75% stagger while they tended to use deadhard instead. And killers were relatively fine. The only map that truly was hell to face people using old BL was Haddonfield. But with old BL nerfed, which massively buffed killers on quite a lot of maps outside of Haddonfield, there isnt a real reason not to add killer stagger. And again, it doesnt need to be anywhere near a chase ending stagger. Just a tiny stagger enough to force killers to play slightly smarter, rather than brainlessly dropping off a height.
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A lot of things in this game don't make sense. DBD is not meant to be a realistic simulator. Giving killers even a minor stagger would just be a blanket buff to drop loops, when we just had a whole mid-chapter patch dedicated to reducing the value of some long standing problematic loops.
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You're the one with a bias here. I play both survivor and killer equally nowadays.
Besides, its not the same advantage/disadvantage here. But going by your logic, lets make a list:
- Survivors can vault fast. Killers can vault slow.
- Survivors get a big stagger. Killers get NO stagger.
- Survivors can use some pallets to their advantage. Killers can use other pallets to their advantage
- Survivors constantly use survivor sided structures, dodging tons of hits. Killers get NO use out of killer sided structures, getting no easier hits
- Survivors walk slow. Killers walk faster than survivors can run.
Seems like there are 2 oddities in this list.
Perhaps altering killer stagger would give a reason for survivors to try out killer sided structures that are actually a lot more challenging than survivor sided structures, but they are not survivor viable at all. Would it make survivor sided structures stronger? Yeah, slightly, but killers were able to deal with those structures when Old BL reduced 75% of survivor stagger constantly, so they can easily deal with a 5% added stagger.
Or are you going to claim that no one could be caught when BL gave a permanent 75% stagger reduction? Because if you do, then you, sir, are blind.
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Not really, most killers are simply humans who got slightly altered by the entity. But guess what? So are the survivors.
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I think that killers should have a stagger effect of some sort. It makes no sense that a killer can drop an entire flight of stairs into the basement while carrying a survivor and suffer no consequence, but if a survivor accidentally touches the basement stairs incorrectly they stagger or waste balanced landing
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There are indeed 2 oddities to that list. You for some reason think killer sided structures exist. The most killer sided structure is an open field which really isn't a structure. Everything else can be used to slow gap closing. And you also seem to think that killers can use pallets to their advantage. Outside of Freddy or Doc, there's nothing killers can do with pallets. Survivors are in complete control of pallets and killers can only use their pallet love to mind game them.
Btw, the problem with the old Balanced Landing was stuff like the Myer's house in Haddonfield. It has 3 windows and with old BL, the survivor could always get to another window before the killer could catch them meaning that if the killer was going to go after them instead of something else, they could drop 9 times before all the windows were blocked off and then go to another loop. Saying it was fair because you would eventually be able to catch a survivor given an infinite time frame is about as fair as saying that having the old Iron Grasp + Agitation combination was fair because you could still eventually wiggle out given an infinite time frame. But here's the reality of the situation: time allowed in this game isn't infinite. Making any balancing decisions based on that assumption is just utter foolishness.
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Name the ones that aren't and the ones that are.
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BL is there, if people choose not to use it, then they need to accept the stagger. Killers should not be nerfed because survivors don't want to use perks. Killer use perks that use totems that can be destroyed early in the match. Risk vs reward. If you choose not to use balanced landing, then you need to adjust your strategy of when you are going to jump, or choose a different escape route.
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Uhuh, but im going to repeat this once again:
Up untill 7 months ago, BL gave a permanent 75% stagger decrease. Which gave a ton of incredibly strong loops, yes, but most of them were managable. It was literally the only reason some killer-sided structures were being used and they were actually fun to use as there was still a big risk of the killer cutting you off quite easily. Coaltower only had the problem of having a window where there should be none. It was the only reason to use the left side of harvesters, because that vault is incredibly killer sided. It was the only reason to get on top of the Piers in backwater swamp. Nowadays, survivors stay in survivor sided structures only and run from survivor structure to survivor structure, skipping all the structures that would be beneficial for killers.
Nerfing BL gave a MASSIVE nerf to a lot of loops. Adding in a tiny bit on killer side wont affect the vast majority of loops and allows for new killer perks/skills to be implemented.
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Not a single killer got altered by the entity. They only got taken from their realm and placed in the entity's realm. Same with survivors for that matter. The closest thing they did to altering is taking away guns, guitars, and whatever from survivors that had them when being snatched.
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True, but thats why I added technically. It would be a reason to use Nurse over other killers. Especially since the amount of Nurses I see is lower than the amount of Demogorgons.
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I like the idea but personally I think it’s fine as it is. It doesn’t play huge parts in chases. Points of elevation are supposed to be a bit more risky for survivors. At the moment with the removal of god loops in my opinion the actual chase part of the game is very balanced. If you’re a good survivor you’ll be able to loop a killer whose worse then you. If you’re a good killer you’ll be able to catch a survivor whose worse then you. I just don’t see the point of adding more mechanics like this when elevation is supposed to be a bit risky. And it’s not like the stagger is that big. We don’t want to head in the direction of Infinite Haddonfield again.
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Killer sided structures:
Thompson house(actually got a bit of a nerf), there was no loopability and the only reason to go there was a generator.
Ironworks coaltower, the rafters upstairs are only used for the chest and perhaps to try and hide while the killer goes downside, because neither the killer or survivors truly have a reason to be up there.
Left side of harvesters, if a survivor uses the left side without balanced landing, its a free hit for killers. The right side is heavily survivor sided.
Unsafe pallets, they are pretty much only usable for a killer stun, dropping the pallet without a stun gives the killer quite the advantage, especially if they try looping it, which they cant for more than 10 seconds without giving a hit.
Doorways, Mount Ormond's skilodge, which used to be heavily survivor sided due to a lack of openings, is now actually a killer-sided structure, if the basement spawns there, there is 1 godpallet in the whole building added to compensate, if the basement spawns in the killershack and you try looping, you might aswell run in a straightline on an open field.
Slowing gap closing and being survivor sided are different things. Revving a chainsaw slows a killer with 15%, increasing the gap, but speeds the killer up with at least 15% and allows for an instadown. Would you call that slowing of gap closure survivor sided? I dont.
As for pallets, there are TONS of pallets in game that are very killer sided that can guarantee a hit within 10 seconds which you wouldnt get with other loops. If a loop decreases the time of getting a hit compared to the average structure: killersided if it increases the chance of a hit compared to the average structure: survivorsided.
If you need an example for a killer using a pallet in their advantage: I can use tons of unsafe pallets to easily bait them to hop over a pallet once, guaranteeing me a hit while they go for a second pallet vault, lowering their damage boost they could otherwise use to run to a safe structure and shortening the chase by a massive amount of time. A decent survivor can loop me around a safe structure for roughly 60 seconds, so if there is a pallet I can use that forces them to go a different direction because I reduced their damage boost, to a structure where the average survivor can loop me for 20 seconds, that is a killersided pallet, wouldnt you say?
I mean, how do you think survivor sided and killer sided maps are labeled that way? If the survivor has a higher chance of survival compared to the average map, then its survivor sided. If the survivor has a lower chance of survival compared to the average map, its a killer sided map. Or are you gonna claim there are no killer sided maps because there are no maps that guarantee a kill?
And again, yes, haddonfield was broken for old BL. But outside haddonfield, there were fairly few issues with BL. There were enough outside haddonfield to nerf the perk specifically rather than blocking haddonfield windows/replacing windows with doorways. But the point is, averagely, the PERMANENT 75% decrease didnt affect the killer's ability to get a 4k on the vast majority of maps. So if a 75% PERMANENT stagger decrease for survivors allows a killer to catch up with a survivor enough to get 4k's, then a 5-10% increase on killers should practically have 0 effect on killer statistics. It would slightly buff haddonfield, sure, but again, survivor stagger is based on the height they drop from. Having a 0.025-0.05 second stagger when a survivor would have a 0.5 second stagger doesnt affect the chase. It literally takes longer for you to blink. Are you gonna complain that blinking affects your ability to chase, because you lose track of the survivor for 0.08 seconds?
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Every time something is changed to stop "brainless" plays, console gets screwed hard. Legion annoys people with constant stabby stabby? Well, now missing a hit takes him out of Feral Frenzy. Any idea how easy it is to whiff on console? Especially with the frame drops and everything else? Or Nurse, getting a cooldown so her Blinks can't be "brainlessly spammed." She's slow as crap, her Blinks are necessary just for map mobility, and while I have slightly more success aiming her Blinks over Huntress's hatchets, I still only touch her for the memes, now.
What would adding a stagger do? Well, for one, it'd probably cause more frame drops for killers. In an ideal world, that would not be a problem. But it is a problem. Whatever may seem like a "small nerf" on paper ends up having unintended consequences. Maybe it's framerate drops. Maybe it's survivors making sure they get downed on a second-story area because they know the killer will have a harder time getting them to a hook with the added stagger/wiggle penalty, especially since it gives another survivor a bit of extra time for sabo'ing. Maybe it's something I can't even predict due to the game's notorious spaghetti code
Consistency would also be a problem. Huntress can't drop down and still have a hatchet ready? Hillbilly can't still have his chainsaw revved? Then will it also take Legion out of Frenzy? Will this affect Plague when she's normal or only when she has Corruption? How will this affect Spirit if she drops off a height mid-phasewalk? I'm not looking for these questions to be answered, I'm saying these are questions that devs would have to ask themselves, and it's inevitable that weak killers will get hit harder by this change because they always do.
I also don't want them to nerf killers just to create a new perk that undoes that nerf while taking up one of the four very valuable perk slots.
It may seem like my post goes off-topic, but I'm just trying to point out that there's a very real possibility that a change like this would hit harder than you expect. Not to mention, programming all this would be very complex. Every killer is different, so there are a lot of factors to take into consideration. A "small QoL change" would actually be a pretty time-consuming endeavor to implement, and they'd be ironing out bugs for the rest of the game's lifespan.
Also, is it really so wrong that there's an element on the map that doesn't outright benefit survivors? Pallets benefit survivors. Lockers benefit survivors. Structures usable for looping benefit survivors. All without needing any perks. And drops can benefit survivors if they bring a specific perk. In general, stuff exists on maps just to make killers' lives harder. The only thing that adds any hazards to the map for survivors are killers with traps. Otherwise, it's a survivor playground.
In conclusion, I really don't want another thing that slows down Clown.
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Correct, but my reasoning is more because of:
- A killer picking up a survivor from the second floor and dropping down twice rather than taking the stairs has 0 impact, wiggling is already extremely underpowered to the point where survivors rely on DS more than Flip Flop, break out, unbreakable(to speed up recovery) and boil over combined because the effects of those perks, even combined, are practically useless unless someone is actively taking down hooks.
- Killers can charge up their ability that allows them to get a free hit/down without risk by dropping down, having the loss of speed by charging their ability fully negated without any repercussions.
- a lot of structures are currently ignored simply because its 100% risk, no reward for survivors. Adding a tiny stagger would change that to 98% risk, some reward, and if RNG is on their side, a huge reward IF they can pull it off. And with the amount of people trying the 4% on a hook, all they need is 2% wiggle room for them to risk it.
And yeah, there is a ton of things that are balanced, but there are some places where having 0 stagger just gives a killer too much of an advantage in some chases, which leads to point 3 of my reasoning. Why ever go in a direction where I would be giving the killer 100% a free hit when I could go in the opposite way, having a 99% chance of still getting hit but a 1% of getting a pallet stun? I rather run across an open field towards a strong pallet, possibly getting downed before I even get there, than going to a structure where there is 0% chance of loopability.
As for the stagger, well, 3 seconds is enough of a stagger for a killer to vault a window from the 2nd floor, land and still hit his ability. Which, in case of iri head huntress, pinky finger clown, billy and bubba, is practically a free instadown, similar to a full on bodyblock. So why make a second story window vault as strong as a full on bodyblock? As for adding new mechanics. Im actually all for new mechanics simply because it allows more creative perks and killer builds, as most killers are boring to play unless you have a very specific build. Having addons that could use the stagger to "root" a demogorgon into a stronger dash, or getting a perk that allows for a dash in a specific direction that you can combine together with a lunge, or giving nurse a massive distance where she can teleport to(meaning she can decide to drop down while charging and teleport practically halfway across the map), or having a plague have an addon that increases survivor stagger while sick, giving them a reason to cleanse more often, or forcing survivors to bleed slightly more/recieve a mangled status right after a drop that lasts for a few seconds, Clown could recieve a reload buff while staggered or give him a more powerful throw as the result of the stagger. Adding new mechanics that kinda nerf one aspect, allows them to buff other aspects of the game to balance out the viability of characters. I mean, Calm Spirit got a relatively weak mechanic added, but it makes it a ton more viable to run against a lot of killers. So while a killer stagger is technically a nerf, it can make a ton of things viable to add, making current weak killers a lot easier to buff without making them overpowered.
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Adding a killer stagger to falling defeats the purpose of perks like Balanced Landing, so I say absolutely not to this idea.
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The loopability on the top floor of Thompson was limited to the short loop right at the top of the stairs, but the bottom floor was constantly used to slow or lose killers. Like every other main building in the game, it's one of the first places survivors will run through if given the chance cause they know it will slow the killer enough to get to pallet nearby if they haven't been used.
To this day, the coaltower topfloor is constantly used whenever the map pops up into rotation. It's ridiculously easy to wait at the top floor for the killer go get to the top of the stairs and then drop down and run to a safe area or loop back in through the building when the window was there.
Left side of harvesters might get used rarely, but that's only because most survivors will only do what they've been taught to do without any creativity. Fortunately, it's not a popular strategy to go onto the haybale side and bait the killer around to the right side and then double vault to the opposite side. If they actually did that, it would stop me from being able to quick end their typical thoughtless looping pattern on that loop.
Unsafe pallets are most useful for the stun, but you can still use them to get distance regardless. And with very few exceptions (those ridiculously small walls around pallets at the bottom of the temple), the stun is up to the the survivor more than the killer. Even if the killer respects pallets and refuses to take the stun, if they backed off right before the drop, then you still have the distance to run away before they can catch up again.
Doorways? You mean the open space I was talking about? The lack of a structure? Yeah, as I mentioned previously, those non-structure structures are in the killer's favor. As for the ski lodge, that building is still wildly survivor sided. Survivors are constantly running upstairs every time you get near it. And they don't do that en masse because it's a bad idea.
Slowing gap closing and being survivor sided are different in the fact that one is a subset of the other rather than the two of them being an equivalency. And yes, the slowdown on LF's chainsaw rev is survivor sided. Why the hell do you think he's considered one of the worst killer's in the game? But if for some incomprehensible reason you think it's not survivor sided, then convince all the other survivor mains to petition to get that killer sided effect out of LF's power. I can garuntee that killer mains will back you on that one.
I like how you mention unsafe pallets twice showing you're struggling to think here. But the only pallet I can think of that gives survivors a 10 second timer before getting hit is the one in the basement of the temple. All other short loop pallets can be dropped and then continue running while the pallet makes the loop longer unless the killer decides to break it. The fact that some survivors try to use short loop pallets like loopable pallets is their own fault.
And again back to pallets. The fact that you can take advantage of survivor mistakes involving pallets only means that survivors make mistakes involving pallets. The fact that pallets are still to a survivor's advantage is something anybody who thinks rationally has to admit if they're being honest. It's seriously ridiculous to insist otherwise, and yet 3 times now you've tried to say that pallets aren't survivor sided.
If by fairly few issues outside of Haddonfield you mean Coal Tower, Ironworks of Misery, Blood Lodge, Disturbed Ward, Campbell's Church, Pale Rose, Grim Pantry, Lery's, Mother's Dwelling, the Game, and Ormond, then fairly few issues.
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Legion's constant stabby stabby was overpowered on pc, it was essentially Mad Grit, allowing for a very easy hit, and an easy hit means easy next target. So there was 0 skill. Yeah, it ######### over console, but to be fair, Legion's mobility is much easier to control on console.
Nurse always had a "cooldown" by adding a stun. The only change was that she couldnt spam 2 blinks after fatique, which allowed her to averagely move at 150% on any map. The current cooldowns lower her average movement speed to 120%. You cannot allow brainlessness on PC. And yeah, it cucks console, but playing survivor on console also has its downsides. It's easier to get a 360 using a controller, but its practically impossible to side step on console without giving away where you're side stepping to. I can do an instant 90 degree turn using my keyboard, allowing me to run straight and bait a throw, then sidestep and dodge a throw no matter how close. Using a controller, I cant unless im willing to stop moving for a fraction of a second, practically giving the hit to the killer.
And yeah, console has its issues, which is why crossplay isnt enabled by default(it is implemented already, but console players have to enable it, while pc players have it enabled by default). It could add frame drops, but I dont really see how. Does survivors dropping cause a frame drop?
And yeah, that would exactly be an implications. Survivors who KNOW they are going down giving a location where they want to go down. It wouldnt really impact going to a hook too much, as hooks are plenty. So if you fake going to one of the hooks on the right, you should easily reach another one thats on your left before they have time to even touch the hook. If you cant, then you've allowed the survivor to run to a location where they can take maximum advantage of wiggling in the first place. If you have hooked 2 people in 1 corner, having a 3rd hook at 50 meters distance, it's your mistake for your lack of hook awareness. It's not that hard to force a survivor away from a zone where there is a lack of hooks while in a chase. And if they can make it thanks to exhaustion perks? Just leave em slugged. You'd either be forcing them to use unbreakable or have someone save them. Meaning less people that can do gens while you're chasing someone else.
Not exactly, Legion's ability activates instantly. It would only affect charging abilities. As a plague, you dont really want to be holding your puke while you drop anyway as it decreases the distance it can reach. As for other effects, they could actually buff weaker killers because of the stagger. A staggered Clown could have a bigger slow/longer range/bigger area of effect/faster reload times for a few seconds. A staggered Demogorgon could go for a dash that reaches further. A spirit, well, would be staggered mid-phase, which is a nerf and spirit can do with some extra nerfs anyway.
Oh really? So you mean, how they added Stagger just so they could create Balanced Landing? Or how they added co-op generator slowdown just so Prove Thyself could be reworked? Or how they removed instaheals so that For The People can be a thing? Or how they added reasons to go into lockers so that Iron Maiden can be a thing?
Basically, killers without staggers are overly strong in certain situations, the same reason why survivor staggers were added in the first place. All they need is a slight stagger to solve that. And you can easily create new perks that could change an otherwise stale meta.
Oh yes, just like the BL nerf literally changed the survivor meta, or how the EGC literally changed the meta, or how plague's perks literally changed the killer meta, or how doc's buff changed the doctor meta, or how stealth killers' buff changed the meta, or how adding in a new killer changes the meta. Yes, if it gets added, it will change the killer meta. As for programming? No, just a simple copy paste from survivor stagger, lowering the effect by 90-95% and having it affect charging and the wiggle timer. Then either add a positive or negative effect depending on killer strength, which does require a bit of coding, but its just a seperate script, make sure it only gets triggered by a stagger and you're done. It's easier and quicker than making new killers, which they seem to be doing 3-4 times a year anyway. So having a year with 3 killers and 1 QoL update rather than a year with 4 killers would be very nice.
As for ironing out bugs, well, there arent really any game affecting bugs in the game right now. There is 1 uncleansable totem on Lery's at the moment, which is extremely strong if its Devour Hope or Noed(it will almost always be noed as its the only one that cannot be cleansed), but most other bugs are practically non-existant. Dedicated servers have a larger impact on the game than bugs nowadays, and that's honestly a good thing, even though I really hate it when a dedicated server decides I still get hit when the killer is upstairs and I am downstairs.
Yes, because if it doesnt benefit survivors in any way, there is no reason for a survivor to go there, meaning it doesnt benefit killers either.
- Weak pallets benefit killers(its a free hit), strong pallets benefit survivors.
- Lockers dont really benefit survivors unless they have DS, otherwise its an instant hookstate. At best it buys them 3 extra seconds before they take a hit.
- Structures usable for looping often allow for a killer to get some decent mindgaming to still get a hit, meaning if you're a better mindgamer, you still get a hit.
Having a structure that has 0 benefit for survivors is a structure that has 0 benefits for a killer. You might aswell remove that structure and give some benefit to a killer. As for hazards on a map, unsafe pallets are hazards. They are a false sense of security when they could have easily gone for something safer. Yes, if it was a dead zone, the killer would get a hit, *but that would be a boring as ######### game*. Structures exist to add some challenge to the game, an unsafe pallet is challenging for a survivor, while a safe loop is challenging for a killer. It's as much as a killer playground as its a survivor playground.
And like I said, you could use the stagger effect to give Clown a buff that could make him otherwise overpowered while he is staggered.
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How? Seriously, HOW would it defeat balanced landing? I mean, does bamboozled or entity windowblocks defeat the purpose of Lithe, Quick&Quiet and Dance With Me? Does Spirit Fury defeat the purpose of pallets? Does Nurse defeat the purpose of structures? NO. And why not? because you can still use other windows, you still get a bonus out of using a pallet stun vs someone who uses spirit fury, you still can use structures against nurse.
Or better yet: does killers walking at 115% defeat the purpose of survivors running? No, and thats a 15% difference.
A 5% stagger is nothing compared to a 100% stagger. Its literally going from a 100% difference to a 95% difference.
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Stop whining. Killers need buffs, not nerfs. There are still a ton of resources for survivors to use, they don't need killer to stagger on a fall. Use balanced landing if you're concerned about it.
Yes, I know bl got nerfed, but ruin got hit hard, the current slowdown perks are a complete joke, and the gen times are ridiculously fast.
In the current state of the game, if you're losing as survivor, it's 100% on you, because killer doesn't stand a chance.
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No, there was 0 loopability on the top floor. It was literally just being in a chase, there was no usable window, no usable way of gaining distance, it was literally just dragging the killer away from people who were working on generators nearby without the killer hearing those generators. If those generators were done, there was no reason to really go inside the house. As for the bottom floor, the only way to lose the killer was using the lockers, there were no windows, no way to increase the distance, only lockers. Baby survivors would head for that building because it was a building, but any decent survivor would rather run through the cornfield and use the corn to disappear than go for the building. If a cornfield is a better option than a building, then yeah, the building is quite killer sided.
Yeah, its used as a hiding spot because there is no reason to go there otherwise. Any smart killer would not go for anyone who is already upstairs.
And yeah, you're correct with that, but the problem being is that 1. if its a fast vault, you can hear and see it and walk towards it before they drop. 2. if its a slow vault, you hear them making sound while falling(because any height thats higher than a haybale is worth yelling about nowadays). So even if they did it once, they would be giving you a free hit unless you were somehow are so taken by surprise that muscle memory just pulls you back to the right side without a second thought, while the same old boring loop on the right allows for more time being wasted, even if it still guarantees a hit.
There are only 2 unsafe pallets that I encounter that actually increase survivor distance rather than decrease it. So its literally a one time use of increasing distance while you drop the pallet, after that, its more a killer structure.
Just because they run upstairs before you get there, doesnt mean its survivor sided. I can run from a killer shack generator in a bee line towards the main building through the cornfield before you go inside and see my scratchmarks. That doesnt make cornfields survivor sided.
My point was that if even a LF is behind you and starts charging up, he increases the distance, but his ability easily closes that gap and gives him an instadown, which is less time than a wraith having to uncloak. Let alone that bubba has the biggest potential and can theoretically down all survivors in 1 swoop. So no, on paper, its not survivor sided. The whole reason why bubba is bad, is because the only way he can use his potential uber strength, is to literally camp. His mobility is incredibly strong in a chase, let alone that to be able to use a locker against bubba, you need a frame perfect input. Bubba has his strengths, but his main strength is too niche of a situation that it requires a fully silent chainsaw, losing his red stain and terror radius, and not being seen by any survivors while he does so. Which pretty much requires Beast of Prey, Dark Devotion and/or Tinkerer. Let alone that Spine Chill alone would counter this anyway. Perhaps making Bubba invulnerable to some actions unless 2+ survivors are in chase(for example, no pallet stuns and bubba just charging forward, faster window vaults, instantly breaking through breakable walls without any stun unless multiple people are within lunge/swoop range). But in a 1v1, Bubba still can get an instadown more easily than most other killers. Not that he gets a 4k easily, but he sure as hell can easily get a 1k.
No, not really, they are literally forced to take a hit, or vault and take a hit. At least in one case, they could use Lithe and get out, but since very few people even use Lithe, they can choose to use the speed boost or the pallet vault, not both.
And just because something can be advantageous by survivors DOES NOT make it survivor sided. A survivor can take advantage of the drop in Hawkins, by literally reducing their time to go down by 7 seconds. Yet is that drop survivor sided? HELL NO. A survivor can go into the basement while being chased, pick a random locker and hope they dont get picked first, taking advantage of the basement lockers while at extreme risk of being found and hooked. Does that make the basement survivor sided? According to you, yes. Because they can take advantage of it. Unsafe pallets are a killers advantage MORE than they are a survivors advantage, that makes it killer sided.
As for uses outside, yes, coal tower not really, you could use bamboozle to counter that loop easily, ironworks, yeah sure. Blood lodge, not really, again, bamboozle. Disturbed ward, yeah, but disturbed ward had a pallet issue that allowed that loop in the first place. Campbell, again, bamboozle. Pale Rose, kinda, but you could easily leave them there as you could guarantee a 3 gen anyway, so you would literally allow the survivors to loop you when you have a 3 gen you could secure. Lery's not really, only when the generator was powered, and then again: bamboozle. Mothers dwelling, again, bamboozle, the game, not really an infinite, a long loop for sure, but far from infinite. Unless you count the security chamber in that loop, in which case, again: bamboozle. Ormond kinda, but that was because of the many windows, not because of BL. BL only allowed them to have a shorter infinite. As for the one window that allows a massive gap: again bamboozle.
Almost all of them could be countered by bamboozle, so yeah, there was only truly 1 massive issue other than haddonfield. The other ones would simply be longer loops than they should be, but just as managable as a survivor constantly blinding you with a flashlight everytime you're forced to vault/kick a pallet. "but that's forcing killers to use bamboozle when they just want to casually play". Yes, just as survivors were forced to either use Stake Out or BNP against Ruin if they wanted a casual game. Which is why Ruin was changed aswell.
Having a stagger in game, would reduce the need for DS in games, allowing for DS to recieve changes. DS and Unbreakable are so common, because wiggling is so weak and slugging is so strong. Adding in a mechanic that allows survivors to pre-plan and go upstairs first would force killers to either take the long way or give survivors less time to wiggle out. Let alone that it also allows to slightly nerf some very strong killers without making them too weak, while also allowing them to increase the strength for weaker killers without making them too strong.
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No, you may not have loops indirectly buffed by having killers nerfed in a way that makes no sense. Unless you want to go with what this guy said here:
Nobody who wants the game to be balanced will support this.
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You're ignoring a few things:
RNG for pallets, perks, random survivors ignoring to unhook you, unskilled killers that are able to recieve a hit when they shouldnt, latency ######### you over, Mori's, iri heads, random survivors taking down haunted grounds while you're the one being chased, randoms deciding to loop around your ######### hook and then blaming the killer for camping.
So no, if you're losing as a survivor, its at most 15% on you in the current state of the game. Yes, with a full 4 man swf, if they are all on my skill level, then still no, because most of the game comes down to mindgaming. If you lose as a killer, its 75% on you for greeding, 25% on the survivors making practically no mistakes. Stop ######### greeding for people, and perhaps you'll see why killers do not need buffs.
You can play the game perkless and add-onless with Billy, Huntress, Nurse, Spirit, Freddy, Trapper, Hag, Myers, Ghostface, Pig, Plague, Legion, and even Bubba for crying out loud, and STILL get a 2k with relative if you put your attention on the right person rather than simply chasing who you're chasing just because you're chasing them. Ever seen an Ayrun video? Guess how many of those killers would have actually gotten a 3k if they simply swallowed down their pride and went for the weaker links on the gens instead? Yeah, a survivor like Ayrun can loop a killer for 5 gens if the killer is predictable. But did they lose because Ayrun was so good, or because they refused to stop a chase they knew they wouldnt be able to win?
SO STOP WHINING ABOUT KILLERS NEEDING A BUFF WHEN THEY DO NOT, WHEN THERE IS A ######### VANILLA GAMEMECHANIC THAT REQUIRES A PERK TO COUNTER.
As for slowdown perks? Easy: take ruin, look out for a 3 gen, preferably with Ruin in the center or nearby one of those gens, make sure the survivors never get close to that 3 gen untill the end, grab surveillance, get tinkerer and discordance and tadaa. Impossible 3 gen that cannot be broken unless they allow you to hook the survivors. I mean, "If YoU'rE sO cOnCeRnEd AbOuT iT", there is a gen pressure build, if you lose that 3 gen, then its 100% your fault.
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And another killer main who is too biased to see otherwise.
- its 0.3 seconds at most, 0.03 at the least. It takes 0.1 seconds on average to blink, does that affect your gameplay too?
- its an oppertunity to buff weaker killers aswell, while also nerfing incredibly strong spammable abilities slightly once they touch the ground, meaning they could still trigger it while mid-air, before touching the ground to negate any stagger.
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Survivor main, actually, and no matter how you justify it, I think the idea is horrible.
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Does survivor dropping cause a frame drop?
Survivors turning in a fast circle can cause frame drops. Pretty much everything causes frame drops. So, yes, sometimes it does.
There's crossplay between Steam and Windows Store versions of DbD. Cross-platform isn't a thing (unless I missed something in the last month, I'll admit I haven't been that attentive, I'm playing ACNH and doing the bare minimum in DbD). But I could swear I've recently seen some PS4 players begging for console crossplay to help with the killer shortage.
Also, I said I wasn't looking for you to answer those questions, those were questions the devs would have to discuss amongst themselves. The point was that it's a lot of stuff to take into consideration, every killer would have to be looked at and altered individually. It would be a large undertaking. Their powers all work differently, and yet sometimes a change to one affects another (remember how changing Spirit's lunge speed so horribly kneecapped Wraith for a little while?).
And there are always plenty of bugs to fix in this game. The framedrops would be one of them; I would like to not miss hits because of dropped frames. I would like to not get stuck on the environment (it's happened multiple times in the past week, I get stuck and am unable to move for the rest of the match). They still have a long way to go in terms of overall optimization. I've had the game not end when the EGC ended and I had to take a DC penalty because of it. I would like Plague's vomit to reliably infect a survivor; it is annoying to see the survivor go through the reaction animation without actually getting sick. I'd like to ever be able to hear anything over the chase music so I would feel it's worth it to use audio again; right now I just keep the game muted. (Yeah, every survivor has tier 3 Iron Will when I play; wouldn't they feel silly to know they wasted a perk slot.) I would like to not see the Evil Within power bar go backwards when I let go of the stalk button. Sometimes scratchmarks take longer to appear than they should (there was a thread discussing that problem a few days ago, it seems to be a console thing). And matchmaking is a huge problem right now with rank 20 killers getting red and purple rank survivors in their lobbies. I haven't bothered to play a real match in months; the matchmaking has me doing nothing but memeing because no matter which side I'm on the skill disparity makes playing "for real" unfun. That might not be a bug, but it's the biggest QoL issue that needs to be fixed sooner rather than after every single killer has quit (it's a bad sign when in a single day I see multiple killers go afk mid-match because they're just that miserable).
For a QoL update, I'd much rather see them make it so that killers like Nurse, Huntress, and Deathslinger don't feel so unpleasant to play on console. I'd rather see Clown get an overhaul. I'd like to see cross-progression so I can find out if the game is more fun on PC. I'd like them to update the tutorial so that maybe fewer new killers would facecamp the first survivor they hook. I'd like them to implement a couple really simple QoL changes to the Tome which for some reason are still absent (and they would be infinitely easier to implement than a killer stagger).
I'd also like to see survivors get access to more information during a match so that solos are on more even ground with SWF. The update to Kindred was a good start, but that still requires using a perk slot. That discussion is a whole other can of worms, though, but I'm saying that it's an issue that I think the devs should address before even looking at something like adding a killer stagger.
When I mentioned lockers, I didn't mean jumping into them in the middle of a chase (though that can work well against Nurse). I meant that they hide auras, which can be a very powerful tool. Not everything is about chases. Survivors can use structures to hide and juke. And just because a pallet is unsafe doesn't mean it's good for the killer; survivors shouldn't try to loop at unsafe pallets, those are for getting a stun, so if they try to loop and get hit that's on them.
If they're going to have a year with 3 killers and 1 QoL update, I want addressing the solo/SWF disparity or overall optimization or ironing out the kinks in dedicated servers to be that QoL update.
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"Haddonfield got a massive nerf when BL was nerfed" This is exactly the argument why killers should not stagger. There was a reason why BL on Haddonfield was hated so much and called OP and also a reason why this got nerfed, because old BL could create easy infinites on every loop with a window drop.
This generic change would basically mean, make all maps a Haddonfield + BL combo for killers. Of course a lesser effect that this OP **** but it heads into that direction and could possibly break game balance
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I like the idea of a killer staggering if they are carrying a survivor. Its at least 100 lbs or more that the killers carrying so I think it makes sense that theres some stagger when they drop from a height while carrying someone. Plus the wiggle time is very long and hooks are all very close to each other too
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While I understand the concept, this would make 2 story loops insanely powerful and give every survivor a reason to run Balanced Landing to make them op. Then they would have to make a killer perk to offset the difference and it would become a necessity among most of the red ranks. Long story short: I see alot of balancing in the future should this happen.
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The Trapper was altered by the Entity.
The Wraith was altered by the Entity.
The Nurse was altered by the Entity.
The Hag was altered by the Entity.
The Doctor was altered (slightly) by the Entity.
The Spirit was altered by the Entity.
The Legion was altered (slightly) by the Entity.
The Clown is a human.
The Hillbilly is a human (barely).
The Huntress is a human.
The Cannibal is a human.
The Pig is a human.
The Plague is (technically) still a human.
The Ghost Face is a human.
The Deathslinger is a human.
The Oni is (debatably) still a human.
Not counting Oni as a human, that leaves 8 killers who are human, 7 who were altered by the Entity, and 4 who aren't (The Shape, The Nightmare, The Oni, and The Demogorgon).
Counting Oni as human, that's 9 human, 7 who were human, and 3 non-humans.
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And Ace is actually secretly Batman. That's how credible it is to say killers are altered by the enemy and give no evidence.
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I think the bottom line is that Killers having a little bit of stagger is something that should have been added whenever Balanced Landing was nerfed to only work when not exhausted. And I'm not talking something MASSIVE, just like .5 seconds or so, and only a slow effect for that duration, not a full stop like Survivor currently has. There's no reason to NOT have stagger when falling as Killer after Balanced Landing was nerfed.
I really don't understand how you all are complaining so hard about something so trivial, when it would be for balance. Just like they removed (most) god loops, nerfed toolboxes, nerfed insta-heals and nerfed Balanced Landing.... all for balance. If it's "unbalanced" (which it is slightly) for Killers to fall three stories and not suffer any sort of penalty, then why cry so much about it being remedied? Honestly, the game is pretty dang balanced right now with all of the updates they've been doing, and I think this would be perfectly fine to add. And if it isn't, they can revert it. Although they'll probably never implement something like this by going off of the General Discussions forum.
I think the problem is that there are a lot of bad Killers on these forums who don't do well in their games and then blame it on the other side, when it really just boils down to how good you are at the game. If Killers can consistently hit rank 1 and be in red ranks, then the game is balanced enough. If Killers WEREN'T able to hit red ranks no matter how good they were, then the game would NOT be balanced. But that is not the case, obviously. I myself have reached red rank as Killer (despite playing more Survivor than Killer), and I've never even used BBQ. Heck, I use STBFL on Huntress and I win plenty of games with her against red ranks. The roles are balanced enough at this point that something like a tiny stagger after falling would be perfectly fine.
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Evan Macmillian was a normal man who liked art and had an abusive father, according to Tome 1 of the Archives. When he snapped and killed the workers, he was taken by the Entity and forced to kill. He was gifted with super strength. However, he didn't want to kill, and so the Entity forced metal through his body. Hence, he was altered by the Entity.
Phillip Ojomo was a normal immigrant worker, who also didn't want to kill anyone. His boss (Azarov) was forcing him to kill people unwillingly, and when he discovered this he was overcome with grief. The Entity entered his mind and changed his perspective, forcing him to kill Azarov and the survivors. Hence, he was altered by the Entity. Also, normal people don't growl or are made from bark.
The Nurse (Sally Smithson) was a normal person, driven to insanity by her work place and the loss of her husband. The Entity claimed her as a killer after she massacred all of the inmates and staff. Normal people can't have bandages wrapped their face so tightly they can't breath, nor can they collect people's breaths. Therefore, the nurse was altered by the Entity.
The Hag was a normal girl living in a village where they practiced different rituals using symbols. One day she was kidnapped by cannibals and kept locked up in the Pale Rose in Backwater Swamp. Whilst strung up, she cut off her own hands through her shackles and drew one symbol on the floor. With the help of the Entity, she became a monster and cannibalised the cannibals right back (she played the uno reverse card). Therefore the Hag was altered by the Entity.
The Doctor was slightly altered by the Entity due to Carter's Spark feeding off of the evil in his heart. Now normal people can't usually provided electrical energy through bad thoughts in their heart, and so the Doctor was slightly altered by the Entity.
The Spirit- do I really need to explain? Probably, so here goes. Now, she was a normal child going to school and working part time to support her family. Her father was originally going to be the killer, and so the Entity entered his mind and made him kill his wide before turning on his daughter. She was chopped into many pieces and thrown through a window (hence the glass in her body). However the Entity saw her rage and so brought her back as the killer instead. Her rage animates her, and without the Entity she wouldn't be standing since usually people aren't made up of floating body parts.
The Legion was altered by the Entity to give them strength since edgy teens can't pick up people like Ace or Bill or David with ease. Therefore they were slightly altered by the Entity.
All of this can be discovered through The Archives or through their character information page. There's my proof (no Ace isn't batman).
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Maybe survivors should get stunned by pallets
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So you basically acknowledge that a strong survivor can't be caught and say to go for someone weaker, and then say that killer is too strong. You outed yourself as a weak survivor. Learn the maps, use strong perks, and escape the vast majority of the time.
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