This should be a red flag to developers (Freddy OP!!!)
Comments
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No freddy is not op. He is just very rewarding for being so easy to play. Look at the nurse statistic, which shows that this isn't taken from high ranks.
I must admit that i hate freddy. If you hate freddy i would recommend spinechill, its a very good and underrated perk that ruins his lullaby oblivous effect.
Most of his power actuelly comes from the sleep state, which ruins BT which is stupid, and makes camping good, so an easy fix would be to rework BT so it works on the hooked persons heatbeat.
Regarding to fixing freddy. I believe that the passive clock thing should be buffed, so they actually serve a purpose adding more time to be immune to freddys sleep.
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But again, not fine if based on anecdotal evidence. It's backing up his "I feels" rather than "the data continues to show ..." See the difference?
Going to a dev and saying "his kit is bad because he can get anywhere fast. Then add perks and oh no! Now he can slow down AND kick gens to make them worse!". Yes. That's how the game is designed.
But going to s dev and saying "look. Your chart shows he has a pick rate of 3.(whatever) percent. His kill rate is 66%. Based on the other numbers you've given us, as well he really needs to not have 10 traps on the ground. 10 is way too many and he can put them everywhere. If you look at this data here, you can see that 85% of traps laid down are triggered. That's far too high if you have the ability to have 10. Don't you think a 50% chance would be more balanced?"
This example is literally the worst example I pulled out of my ass. You get the point.
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k mate.
want me to address all your points just so I can address this one thing? will that somehow mean that what I say will have a different meaning? No. it won't.
but apparently I'm not allowed to focus on one part of what you said...nooooooo... I need to talk about all the things to disagree on one point right?
so...sure...let's waste a bunch of my time to address this.
The fact that Freddy has a relatively low pick rate but a SIGNIFICANTLY higher kill rate should be a major red flag to BHVR that he is too strong.
why is that? all that means is only a few people play freddy. and apparently they got good at it.
IDC what you want to say about Nurse or Spirit, but Freddy is objectively one of if not the strongest killers in the game and there are multiple reasons for it.
why don't you care? do you not care about stuff that would show you freddy isn't the strongest killer in the game? so unbiased of you to take this position.
I must preface this with...
I was an old Freddy main at rank 1. I played him without Ruin or NOED and was still quite effective with him. However I would acknowledge that he was, at the time, the weakest killer in the game.
I don't see how this is relevant in any way shape or form. whatever level of skill you had with old freddy is not important when talking about new freddy.
I play new Freddy regularly at rank 1 and I find him to be hands down the most oppressive killer to play. Consistently. Like I win games regularly with 3 or more gens left, AND I rarely have to camp or tunnel.
fun anecdote. How can you measure how oppressive you are? do you think kills=opressiveness or gens left=opressiveness? how did you measure how opressive you are?
So why is Freddy so strong?
First is his teleport. He has the best map pressure in the game because he can instantly go to the gen you are working on.
No he can't. the teleport has a cooldown. and takes a while to finish teleporting after you start. giving the survivor time to hide.
No other killer can do this, save for Demo and Hag but they have to set up first which greatly reduces their pressure.
is billy not a thing anymore?
also... are you saying a hag with traps set up doesn't have pressure? have you watched high skilled hags play?
Every single gen slowing or gen tracking perk is borderline God tier on Freddy. BBQ, DIscordance, Surveillance, Tinkerer, Thana, Ruin, Pop (especially Pop). Yes these are good perks for many killers, but on Freddy they become exponentially more powerful.
same for billy.
high mobility killers can use bbq, discordance, surveillance, tinkerer, ruin and pop better than slower killers... who knew?
freddy is not even in the top 5 of thana users though... so bad example there.
Second is his snares. He has an anti-chase that is very similar to Clown. Say what you want about Clown, but a good Clown will catch you CRAZY fast.
no true scotsman much? So what? if I loop a clown a lot is not because I played well, it's because he's bad... right? yeah...great discourse to be had here.
well, if you can't loop a freddy, it's not because he's strong, it's because you're bad. (see? this argument is dumb)
Freddy is just a slightly weaker Clown in this aspect, as he can't plant a puddle in front of you during a chase. It is damn near impossible to run a good Freddy for very long around most loops just as it can be a good Clown. This is a minor issue however.
you mean you can't loop a killer with a strong anti loop power for too long?
how insightful
Third is Dream World, or rather the fact it automatically gets Oblivious. This means that he gets a free BT counter, or any perk requiring a terror radius.
do you actually have any example that isn't bt?
it's just bt isn't it?
did you try waking up before going for a save?
Sure this hurts him too, but the perks he can't use aren't that great anyway (Unnerving, Insidious??? LOL). Infectious is probably the only TR perk that is good, but guess what? IT STILL WORKS FOR HIM! Yep try it, Infectious will make dreaming survivors scream. Oblivious doesn't stop that for some reason but it negates a lot of good survivor perks.
this is indeed wrong and should be fixed.
Fourth is stealth. He has built in semi-stealth due to him being INVISIBLE to awake survivors outside his TR and even sometimes in his TR.
that is on brand for freddy. hell... if you go with his actual powers, you shouldn't see at all while awake.
This means he can get really close to you while awake without you having a reasonable way to react. He is basically a Wraith.
you hear the terror radious and see him at that point. you have many reasonable ways to react. In many maps you can see any killer until he's super close either way, so I don't see what's so special about freddy here.
that and you spend what? 80% of the match asleep? freddy doesn't get to be invisible all that much.
Finally, he is the ONLY killer in the game with add-ons that affect gen speeds.
You have already been told this is wrong, so I won't bother repeating that
This is the big one. He has 3 add-ons that do this, and while they were nerfed that is not good enough. They shouldn't exist, period.
and all 3 of them are not good. they were before the nerf, but now their effect is minimal.
They look super strong because freddy's other addons are just crap in comparison. save for a couple of them.
Don't get me wrong, at first I loved them because my main tactic with old Freddy was to use range add-ons and tracking perks like Surveillance and Nurse's to permanently keep survivors asleep for that sweet 50% action penalty. It was a strong tactic, however since I had to put them to sleep myself it was fair since I had to be active to get that reward. But now you just fall asleep in 60 seconds OR when he hits you. You are going to be asleep more than 50% of the game easily, and usually without any action on the killer's part. Basically he just gets this stuff for free by equipping an add-on.
he gets 50% reduction for free? really? wanna run the math with me on that one?
Let's summarize... Freddy is basically a combination of Hag, Wraith, and Clown with built in BT counter and passive slow down that no other killer has access too.
Replace hag with demogorgon. freddy is limited on his teleports while hag isn't.
Pig has access to a bt counter and argueably the best slow down in the game. You really need to stop with this "no other killer can do the same" thing that you keep doing... did you not check? ever?
My entire point here is that Freddy just has WAY WAY too much in his base kit
he has a teleport and snares.
anything else you talked about isn't base kit
wanna see a quick list of killers that have a similar amount of things base kit?
pig has stealth, slow down and a dash attack.
billy has the highest mobility in the game and an instant down.
ghostface has stealth and an instant down.
demo has a little stealth, a teleport, full map detection and a dash attack.
so no... I don't think freddy has "WAY WAY too much in his base kit"
and that is why he has such a significantly higher kill rate compared to other killers.
that's your opinion. I think he has that kill rate because he's easy to do well with.
You can say "don't draw conclusions from data alone" remember that I told you I play new Freddy at rank 1 and my experience is that he is oppressive.
different people think diferent killers are more opressive than the others.
why do you think your experience means more than anyone elses? Which metric did you use to determine that?
Furthermore, as survivor, a good Freddy with a strong slow down build is one of the most difficult killers to beat.
a good killer with a strong build is hard to beat? wow...
next you'll tell me that a good 4 man SWF survivor team is hard to beat...
Literally your only chance against a killer like this is to run in a 4 man SWF,
I play solo and have beaten several good freddys.
but I guess they aren't really "good freddys" right?
the good freddys are obviously only the ones that have beaten me... definetively... right? /s
which anyone who plays this game could tell you is already broken, but I digress.
indeed
So what is the solution? How do we fix this?
You have yet to demonstrate the problem
I'm not just making this post to complain, I'm making it to offer a suggestion.
we all know you are doing both
Now I have been writing down my ideas for changes to Dead By Daylight I would like to see that I believe would improve the game. It's a lot, I will just copy and paste what I wrote for Freddy. Let's take a look...
NIGHTMARE
Survivors no longer passively fall asleep at the start of the game and do not see the sleep clock until they are hit and put into the Dream State at least once.
to me this is perfectly fair
Dream Snare radius reduced by 20%.
I don't see how this would change anything.
Oblivious removed from Dream World.
what does the dream world do now?
Nightmare can be always seen by awake survivors within 32m.
again, perfectly fair.
Remove stacking penalty on Snap Clap wake up action.
I would add a limit to how much the penalty goes. but removing this would make the clocks entirely useless.
Cat Block, Z Block, Pill Bottle, Paint Thinner, Outdoor Rope, Jump Rope, and Swing Chains reworked.
Cat Block inflicts Haemorrhage on sleeping survivors. Healthy survivors that are asleep will bleed.
so make it z block? it's still crap...
Z Block inflicts Mangled on injured survivors that are asleep and blocks the aura of their dream clock outside of 32m.
do you wanna remove the slowdown effects or add more of them? seems contradictory.
also... I think removing the clock aura works against freddy. let them waste a minute running across the map to wake up.
Pill Bottle makes the Nightmare; disappear intermittently to awake survivors; invisible to sleeping survivors outside of 32m.
ok
Paint Thinner reveals the survivor's aura for 4 seconds upon falling asleep.
this seems very meh... how often do survivors even wake up?
also... what about the pallets?
Outdoor Rope greatly increases interaction time for each successive Snap Clap.
so...what should be base kit in an addon? totally not silly...
Jump Rope causes the survivor's dream clock to move to a new location every 30 seconds.
even less incentive to go to the clock?
totally what freddy wants.... /s
Swing Chains causes Dream World to inflict the Oblivious status effect.
sure...
Garden Rake and Prototype Claws Dream Tokens reduced to 8.
why? pallets are easy to deal with already, why reduce them?
Prototype Claws aura reading removed. Prototype Claws inflict Hindered for 10 seconds on survivors that interact with Dream Pallets.
damn...what a nerf.
but fair... it's totally not in the survivors control if they get revealed or not right? and freddy is ALWAYS looking at them /s
Kid's Drawing adds 5 Dream Tokens.
totally...yeah... I absolutely would use this. totally not useless. /s
you somehow made the meme addon less useable...damn...
So let's unpack this.
The first line is actually a slight nerf and buff to Freddy, as one of his only drawbacks is that you KNOW it's a Freddy right when the game starts. This would give some leeway at the start of the game for survivors, and also give Freddy more element of surprise opportunities. Though of course once he hits someone they would see, but the point is he would have a bit more spook at the start. Once you hit them the clock appears and it functions as normal.
and again, this is fine
Making Dream Snares smaller means it would take better planning in their use. I feel like I can just spam them without care and they do more than what I need them to do. At least require me to use to skill here.
again, this would literally change nothing.
Next. we basically take away all the "fluff" from Freddy's base kit. The goal is to shift most of them to his add-ons.
and that, is a terrible goal. making a killer more addon reliant is never good.
Pill Bottle is a bad add-on IMO, it does nothing for him.
Didn't you spend quite a bunch of time saying his stealth is too good?
You should really update your stuff instead of just copy-pasting it.
This new version would do something for him. Notice how for most of these things while I offer to take away something from his base kit and move it to an add-on, I'm actually buffing it in the process because it now requires an add-on and therefore can be a tad better.
you literally made it worse mate.
you nerfed the range. and gave it nothing in return.
This all opens up new builds for Freddy. I enjoy add-ons that change how a killer functions over straight up making something they do faster or stronger. It leads to more interesting emergent gameplay.
and yet it's not what you did with your changes. all you did was limit freddy.
The dream pallet add-ons I feel are redundant. You don't need 3 of them, hell 1 is enough. So let's take Paint Thinner and do something else with it
I agree he doesn't need more than one.
but you also made paint thinner #########...
what I suggest is reminiscent of old Freddy and I would enjoy this as both killer and survivor.
so enjoyable to see an aura every 10 min in game...great stuff.
people don't wake up genious... it won't activate more than maybe 10 times total in a match. and more than half of them will be when you won't be able to use the information, wether because you are already chasing someone or because it's literally the person you are chasing.
and the ones where you aren't chasing someone? it's the guy that just came out of the hook. so you made a tunneling perk... survivors love those...
I only kept 2 dream pallet add-ons because I honestly couldn't think of another thing for Claws to do.
that's sad... I can give you like 5 different thing right now...
1- reduces the sleeping clock time by a set amount
2- decreases teleport charge time
3- reduces lullaby range
4- shows the aura of asleep survivors in a small range
5- gives freddy the ability to "unteleport" meaning, after a very small amount of time after he teleports, he can press the power button again and return to where he was before the teleport
All the slow down add-ons are gone and in it's place are add-ons that are still really good but not stupid to play against.
"still really good"... HA!
when was the last time you saw someone saying survivors focusing more on doing gens instead of going to clocks to wake up is good for freddy? or doing gens instead of waking each other up?
Giving Oblivious in Dream World as an add-on is acceptable. Base kit it is not.
and why is that? bt counter? other killers also have bt counters in their base kit mate.
you need to give better reasoning
Finally we make his lame BP add-on a bit better.
it's funny that you think you made it better... there' literally no reason to use it over literally anything else.
This is just to offset the fact his snares just got worse.
technically, yes they did.
also, the terrible addon no one would ever use is compensation for the nerf? damn... you are cruel.
But even if the addon wasn't terrible, you literally didn't solve the thing you consider to be the problem with them.
so a terrible reward that does nothing is compensation for a dumb nerf that changed nothing... quite fitting
These are just my suggestions, obviously they won't be implemented but something like this would be a good change for Freddy. If you guys have suggestions you are free to put them here.
Nah...
Be aware I'm not looking to argue with anyone about whether Freddy is too strong or not.
I know that. You have already decided he is and won't listen to anyone telling you otherwise no matter what they bring to the discussion.
totally not a terrible person to have a discussion with... /s
He very much is
You have yet to demonstrate this
and the chart above confirms it.
it does not.
We need to discuss ways to fix this.
No we don't. Because you have yet to demonstrate that there is something that needs fixing.
besides infectious fright working on sleeping survivors, that is indeed bs and should not be the case.
well then... there it is. I replied to your entire first post without mentioning the chart (besides when you mentioned it first) wasn't this a great use of my time?
can we focus on the part I wanna talk about now?
Or is there any other bs reason we can't?
Saying "devs said blah" is not a perfectly good reason,
first, yes it is. the data came from them.
second, I gave you other reasons. you are just too stubborn.
especially when I can point to the previous data dump and demonstrate a clear pattern with Freddy.
you actually haven't done that. You said he is too strong and said the stats confirm it.
you didn't demonstrate a pattern between them and didn't even attempt to. You are just holding the stats up as shield to protect your opinion from people calling you out on it.
You already decided freddy is op and took things that don't demonstrate that, as proof that he is.
and is now acting like a child when people correctly tell you that this is not that the graphs shows.
because the strenght of a character, is not part of the graph.
the graph only shows 2 things. how often a character is picked and how many kills he gets on average.
ANYTHING ELSE you get from them, are your INTERPRETATION of things, NOT what things actually are.
LEARN. TO. READ. GRAPHS.
THAT IS THE RED FLAG.
the pattern you didn't demonstrate?
guess that means there isn't a red flag, since you failed to provide the pattern.
My argument in the OP was drawn from not the charts.
Just because the chart isn't your only reason, it doesn't mean you didn't present it as an argument.
I said you drew your conclusion from it. at least partially. and you did.
"and the chart above confirms it." - what is this if not you using the chart as an argument?
You claim I am doing that when I am not.
again, "and the chart above confirms it." - what is this if not you using the chart as an argument?
That is exactly what strawman is. You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart.
1st- I never said you drew your conclusions solely from the chart. I said it was partially from it
2nd- the definition of a strawman is
is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, meanwhile the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted.
which is ironically, what you are doing right now...
You claim I am doing that...
You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart...
these are all examples of you strawmanning me.
This entire time my point has been that
- the graphs cannot be used to show that freddy is op, because that is not a data point in the graphs.
- Using them to reach the conclusion of freddy being op is wrong.
- You shouldn't have used them as part of your arguments.
and yet you failed to address that time and time again.
up until this comment I hadn't even expressed my opinion on if freddy is op or not, because it was completely irrelevant.
If you use the wrong strategy, but reaches the correct answer, it still means you used the wrong strategy.
and when I criticize your strategy, the answer is irrelevant.
Not once do either of you actually address my points
Because that's not what I was trying to do.
or try to refute the evidence
Your only evidence is anecdotes and the graphs.
How can you say I didn't try yo refute the evidence when the graphs are part of it?
other than to say basically "this is completely inadmissible as evidence of anything because the devs said so".
and again, strawman.
How many times do I need to tell you that the graphs don't show that freddy is op just because you want them to?
if you wanna say "Freddy is the most lethal killer in both graphs, therefore he is op" then you MUST accept the argument "Nurse is the least lethal killer in both graphs, therefore she is the worst".
We both know the second argument is BS. Why do you think yours is any better? (spoiler alert, it's just as BS as the nurse one but you refuse to see it)
Now, mister "you need to address everything"... I'm looking forward to your reply to absolutely EVERYTHING I said in this post.
If you don't address everything, then anything you say can be dismissed by me. (that's how it works right?)
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Yea. I mean he's not OP. His ability is just way too easy to use and way too high rewarding. There's no special knowledge, skill or downside to all of his tools. You just press the button and spam the hell out of it. No fall back, no cooldown, no downside, no tactic nothing.
So Freddy with all of his tools is fine but
1.Sth needs to be changed so that you have to be actually good and you get punished for missplays.
2.He's way too oppressive for solos. But that's more of a singleplayer problem. Sth the devs shouldve already fix in order to create more things and killers who relies on coordination and information and stuff like that.
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The passive sleep thing fits his lore more than his hit to sleep mechanic does, or even his old power of putting people to sleep.
I personally use fake pallets over snares, placing pallets during a chase is far easier and less fine tuned than a snare.
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Are you talking about freddy's tp? It has a cool down, even if you use it to mindgame. You can shorten the cool down but it's still got one.
The survivors get a notification that he's coming. More often than not, the survivors at least hide when the blood starts pouring out.
(This is irrelevant to your post if you meant his invisibility, etc)
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this is SO much better articulated than OP.
@thesuicidefox THIS is how you make an argument for freddy being OP. learn from it.
I can see it. 90% of threads here are people disagreeing with OP... XD
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The passive sleep one is interesting because you don't have people in the movies just fall over asleep on the floor unless drugged. (Kristen I'm looking at you). The micronaps thing with the new movie was interesting but was completely new to the series - I still can't decide what I think of it (from a canon standpoint). Sorry, I love talking noes lore. (Noes, not noed!)
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"why don't you care? do you not care about stuff that would show you freddy isn't the strongest killer in the game? so unbiased of you to take this position."
Because the thread is about Freddy and there is evidence to support my claims, unlike both Nurse and Spirit which the data does not support the claims made against them.
"why is that? all that means is only a few people play freddy. and apparently they got good at it."
The chart is all ranks so this cannot be the case. You could make this argument for a chart showing only red ranks, but even then because there is a trend between all ranks and red ranks, and there is a trend from the previous data dump it would be untrue.
"No he can't. the teleport has a cooldown. and takes a while to finish teleporting after you start. giving the survivor time to hide."
The cooldown is very quick even when survivors are awake, such that you should always have it available after getting a hooking or otherwise applying pressure elsewhere on the map. And I never said Billy or any other killer doesn't have pressure, I said Freddy has the MOST pressure because he can travel the entire map in under 5 seconds. No other killer can go from one side of the map to the other that fast.
"no true scotsman much? So what? if I loop a clown a lot is not because I played well, it's because he's bad... right? yeah...great discourse to be had here."
You miss the point. Of course it was your skill, but you needed to be much more skilled to run from a good Clown than a good Legion, for example, who has no chase power. Just as you'd have to be a lot more skill to run from a good Freddy. The difference between Clown and Freddy (for now at least) is that Clown's only got the chase. It would be nice if he had SOME other things sure, but Freddy has almost equal potential in a chase AND THEN SOME (actually and then a lot).
"do you actually have any example that isn't bt? it's just bt isn't it? did you try waking up before going for a save?"
Considering BT is a major meta perk for survivors, that's all I really need to say honestly. He gets a FREE counter to it where other killers have some kind of drawback. Wraith and Pig need to stay undetectable while the save is made. GF can be revealed. Other undetectable perks have limits. Freddy just needs to hit you OR you just need to be asleep for him to counter BT. I've literally just camped while someone tried to save, waited for them to fall asleep, hit them so they save, then down the guy they just saved because I know he doesn't have BT. In other words, I can both prevent the save and prevent BT from activating where other killers can only do one at a time. Him being able to counter this specific perk this way is probably the major reason he does as well as he does.
"you hear the terror radious and see him at that point. you have many reasonable ways to react. In many maps you can see any killer until he's super close either way, so I don't see what's so special about freddy here."
You still miss the point. Yes 32m is a good distance to react, the point is he gets something for free other killers don't get. Any other killer, including the MF'er that turns invisible, can be spotted coming from more than 32m away. Not Freddy. You can only react once you are within 32m, or you stay asleep and eat whatever penalties that comes with.
"and all 3 of them are not good. they were before the nerf, but now their effect is minimal. They look super strong because freddy's other addons are just crap in comparison. save for a couple of them."
While I won't disagree his other add-ons suck, saying his chains/rope are bad is flat out wrong. They are some of the most effective add-ons in the game. Yes they were nerfed but still no other killer has built in passive slowdown on gens. NONE. Huntress has to hit you with a hatchet and it only lasts 2 minutes that's the closest comparison, but that is insanely weak compared to an up to 8% debuff passive affecting everyone with chains. To sit here and say "their effects are minimal" is like saying "iri head reduces hatchet count to 1 so the effects are minimal".
"he gets 50% reduction for free? really? wanna run the math with me on that one?"
Old Freddy did yes.
"Pig has access to a bt counter and argueably the best slow down in the game. You really need to stop with this "no other killer can do the same" thing that you keep doing... did you not check? ever?"
Like I said before 1) she has to actively do something to counter BT and has a drawback to that counter (she is slower), and 2) pig traps are not a slowdown mechanic they are an alternative objective. She still has nothing to actually slow down survivors that want to do gens. I could finish 2 gens with a trap on then do 1 box and get it off. That's not the same thing as applying a universal 12% debuff from my power alone to gen speed.
"he has a teleport and snares."
And passive slowdown, and pallets, and tracking (via screams/pallet drops), and passive BT counter, and semi-stealth. You really don't play Freddy much do you?
Also the major difference between him have multiple powers and a killer like Demo or Pig is that Demo and Pigs tools are not nearly as good as Freddy's. His teleport is superior, his anti-BT is superior, his chase potential is superior, everything he does is better than either of them.
"different people think diferent killers are more opressive than the others."
Do those people have 2 different data dumps demonstrating a visible trend? No? Okay moving on.
"You have yet to demonstrate the problem"
This literally just made me LOL.
Honestly not getting into the rest as they were just my suggestions for what to do about him. I'm not really caring to push that, except for the smaller snares, removal of Oblivious from Dream World and it being placed onto an add-on, and the reworking of his chains/rope add-ons. Also I would really like the change to Paint Thinner I suggested, and I would like his other add-ons be made more viable too. I'm not asking to make him ######### tier again.
I made a very clear and valid statement about Freddy being too strong which I then supported with the chart (and subsequently the charts from last time). I applaud your commitment to quoting my entire post and making as difficult to respond to you as possible, but your counter points just don't hold up to scrutiny. You can sit there and tell me how you beat Freddy all the time or some #########, but there are multiple things here showing you're wrong.
"this is SO much better articulated than OP.
@thesuicidefox THIS is how you make an argument for freddy being OP. learn from it."
He literally said the same things I did. SMH His only addition really was the 1:1 / 1:2 ratio thing.
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Nurse needs a buff because of her low pick rate.
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Low pick AND low kill ;3
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As someone who predominantly plays survivor, I've almost historically never had a problem with Freddy. He's actually a lot more fun to go against than traditional killers imo since his counterplay isn't just "ha ha loop go weeee!". You have to remember what pallets are real, and which one's are not. Can this occasionally blow up in the survivor's face? Of course, but isn't that kind of what the pallets are supposed to do?
I never found his snares or teleport to be too powerful either. As long as you stay aware of these things, you should almost never have an issue with him; I don't see the problem.
As many people here already said, these stats should not be used to draw conclusions. If we're nerfing Freddy because of his high kill rate, then lets buff Nurse while we're at it. This stats can be skewed by a number of things, especially Freddy, since he technically has 2 abilities to pick from. For all we know, his kill rate with dream pallets could be 90%, and the snares at 30%.
Whenever a killer comes out that doesn't have traditional counterplay, it gets people angry.
BHVR, if you're reading this, PLEASE don't nerf Freddy.
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"why don't you care? do you not care about stuff that would show you freddy isn't the strongest killer in the game? so unbiased of you to take this position."
Because the thread is about Freddy
So in this thread about freddy, why do you not wanna hear about freddy not being op?
and there is evidence to support my claims,
there isn't, but go on
unlike both Nurse and Spirit which the data does not support the claims made against them.
what are these claims? I didn't even mention nurse or spirit here. I never mentioned spirit anywhere on this thread.
are you confusing what I said with what other people are saying?
"why is that? all that means is only a few people play freddy. and apparently they got good at it."
The chart is all ranks so this cannot be the case.
False. the graph shows a small pick rate and a big kill rate. inferring that the small group of people that play freddy are good at it, is the natural conclusion.
works he same way for pig. not a lot of people play her, but on average the ones that do play her, play her well.
and rank is irrelevant in this scenario.
You could make this argument for a chart showing only red ranks,
ranks are still irrelevant in this scenario.
if I tell you "this group of people on average gets an A in biology", doesn't matter who is in that group, the average is still "A in biology"
but even then because there is a trend between all ranks and red ranks, and there is a trend from the previous data dump it would be untrue.
no it wouldn't... I really don't think you understand graphs.
"No he can't. the teleport has a cooldown. and takes a while to finish teleporting after you start. giving the survivor time to hide."
The cooldown is very quick even when survivors are awake,
very quick is a matter of perspective. 45 seconds could be quick or an eternity depending on circunstances.
such that you should always have it available after getting a hooking or otherwise applying pressure elsewhere on the map.
and when you don't?
And I never said Billy or any other killer doesn't have pressure, I said Freddy has the MOST pressure because he can travel the entire map in under 5 seconds. No other killer can go from one side of the map to the other that fast.
I didn't say you said billy didn't have pressure.
I said, you forgot that going to a gen on the other side of the map in 5 seconds is literally Billy's thing. and he can do it more often than freddy
"no true scotsman much? So what? if I loop a clown a lot is not because I played well, it's because he's bad... right? yeah...great discourse to be had here."
You miss the point. Of course it was your skill, but you needed to be much more skilled to run from a good Clown than a good Legion, for example, who has no chase power. Just as you'd have to be a lot more skill to run from a good Freddy.
fair enough.
The difference between Clown and Freddy (for now at least) is that Clown's only got the chase. It would be nice if he had SOME other things sure, but Freddy has almost equal potential in a chase AND THEN SOME (actually and then a lot).
clown needs a buff. the poor guy...
"do you actually have any example that isn't bt? it's just bt isn't it? did you try waking up before going for a save?"
Considering BT is a major meta perk for survivors, that's all I really need to say honestly.
then say bt. no need for the "any perk requiring terror radious" thing.
He gets a FREE counter to it where other killers have some kind of drawback. Wraith and Pig need to stay undetectable while the save is made.
and that is hard because...?
on pigs case, she literally dashes out of it.
I can see the point on wraith, but still, basekit and he has full control of it
GF can be revealed.
GF can hide, and stalking while someone goes for the save is kinda of a thing GF tends to do anyway...
Other undetectable perks have limits.
if the perk is active, it's active. Limits be damned.
but I didn't bring up perks. so why did you.
Freddy just needs to hit you OR you just need to be asleep for him to counter BT.
you wake up before going for the save like I said, and he HAS to hit you. this gives you time to get the save.
if the killer wants to camp, he will camp. and if he wants to counter BT, he will. there's better ways than the dream world.
I've literally just camped while someone tried to save, waited for them to fall asleep,
so you were camping and the survivor was bad, got it.
hit them so they save, then down the guy they just saved because I know he doesn't have BT.
you could also down the saver but decided to tunnel the guy... congrats?
I don't know what you think this proves...
In other words, I can both prevent the save and prevent BT from activating where other killers can only do one at a time.
you didn't prevent the save, you had to down the guy. did you forget? preventing the save means the guy stays on the hook. which he didn't.
Him being able to counter this specific perk this way is probably the major reason he does as well as he does.
I say it's probably his teleport giving him great mobility... but these are both just ours opinions.
"you hear the terror radious and see him at that point. you have many reasonable ways to react. In many maps you can see any killer until he's super close either way, so I don't see what's so special about freddy here."
You still miss the point. Yes 32m is a good distance to react, the point is he gets something for free other killers don't get. Any other killer, including the MF'er that turns invisible, can be spotted coming from more than 32m away. Not Freddy. You can only react once you are within 32m, or you stay asleep and eat whatever penalties that comes with.
I didn't miss the point, I just don't think it's a big deal.
poor wraith...needs true invisibility from a certain distance.
"and all 3 of them are not good. they were before the nerf, but now their effect is minimal. They look super strong because freddy's other addons are just crap in comparison. save for a couple of them."
While I won't disagree his other add-ons suck, saying his chains/rope are bad is flat out wrong.
I didn't say bad, I said not good. they are like... middle of the road.
They are some of the most effective add-ons in the game.
I disagree. There are waaaay too many addons that are better than freddys.
Yes they were nerfed but still no other killer has built in passive slowdown on gens. NONE.
1- What would you call pigs RBT? they quite literally stop gens.
2- that's not built in, it's an addon.
Huntress has to hit you with a hatchet and it only lasts 2 minutes that's the closest comparison, but that is insanely weak compared to an up to 8% debuff passive affecting everyone with chains.
I never said others were good. just that they have it.
To sit here and say "their effects are minimal" is like saying "iri head reduces hatchet count to 1 so the effects are minimal".
8% reduction means instead of 80 seconds, a gen takes 86.4 seconds. Yes, I call that minimal.
iri head can cut a chase in half, which could vary from maybe 10 to 120 seconds. this is not minimal.
this example is really really bad. in so many ways. I have no idea why you even bothered with it.
"he gets 50% reduction for free? really? wanna run the math with me on that one?"
Old Freddy did yes.
and when you say
But now you just fall asleep in 60 seconds OR when he hits you. You are going to be asleep more than 50% of the game easily, and usually without any action on the killer's part. Basically he just gets this stuff for free by equipping an add-on.
What are you refering to if not the sentence imediatly before it? when you said old freddy got 50% reduction but had to work for it?
New freddy, is not getting "this stuff" for free. he is getting way less.
"Pig has access to a bt counter and argueably the best slow down in the game. You really need to stop with this "no other killer can do the same" thing that you keep doing... did you not check? ever?"
Like I said before 1) she has to actively do something to counter BT and has a drawback to that counter (she is slower),
yes, she has to press whatever button it is...right mouse click?
the drawback is nothing, you want to counter bt so you move slower. and the person can't move until the getting out of the hook animation is done. you can literally dash and get the guy in half a second...
and 2) pig traps are not a slowdown mechanic they are an alternative objective.
wanna run that by literally any pig main?
She still has nothing to actually slow down survivors that want to do gens.
besides the fact they will die... right?
I could finish 2 gens with a trap on then do 1 box and get it off.
or you could die.
That's not the same thing as applying a universal 12% debuff from my power alone to gen speed.
people trying to remove the trap can't do gens. it's a 100% speed reduction from her power
"he has a teleport and snares."
And passive slowdown, and pallets, and tracking (via screams/pallet drops), and passive BT counter, and semi-stealth. You really don't play Freddy much do you?
addon, addon, fair but under control of the survivors, completely under the control of the survivors, far aways stealth is #########.
you really don't think about things you say, do you?
Also the major difference between him have multiple powers and a killer like Demo or Pig is that Demo and Pigs tools are not nearly as good as Freddy's.
debatable
His teleport is superior,
can he teleport anywhere he wants like demo can?
his anti-BT is superior,
can he choose o activate it at will like pig can? or do the circunstances need to be in his favor?
his chase potential is superior,
debatable
everything he does is better than either of them.
false.
"different people think diferent killers are more opressive than the others."
Do those people have 2 different data dumps demonstrating a visible trend? No?
neither do you.
"You have yet to demonstrate the problem"
This literally just made me LOL.
just shows how you don't understand what you're talking about.
Honestly not getting into the rest as they were just my suggestions for what to do about him. I'm not really caring to push that, except for the smaller snares, removal of Oblivious from Dream World and it being placed onto an add-on, and the reworking of his chains/rope add-ons. Also I would really like the change to Paint Thinner I suggested, and I would like his other add-ons be made more viable too. I'm not asking to make him [BAD WORD] tier again.
not gonna push that...except for the parts that you are...
good job mate...
I made a very clear and valid statement about Freddy being too strong
you said your opinion, yes.
which I then supported with the chart (and subsequently the charts from last time).
so you admit the chart is part of the reason you got to your conclusion. good on you.
I applaud your commitment to quoting my entire post and making as difficult to respond to you as possible,
you asked for it. Now deal with it.
but your counter points just don't hold up to scrutiny.
You didn't refute even a fifth of them. and didn't even try to refute half of them.
you literally gave up without actually giving up. speech 100 again mate
You can sit there and tell me how you beat Freddy all the time or some [BAD WORD], but there are multiple things here showing you're wrong.
this is an easy one... You can sit there and tell me how you beat all the survivors as Freddy all the time or some [BAD WORD], but there are multiple things here showing you're wrong
get actual arguments mate.
"this is SO much better articulated than OP.
@thesuicidefox THIS is how you make an argument for freddy being OP. learn from it."
He literally said the same things I did. SMH His only addition really was the 1:1 / 1:2 ratio thing.
He might have similar points, but he didn't say the same thing.
also, I already gave the answer to this one on the post itself "this is SO much better articulated than OP."
HOW you say things, matter.
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Not really. You can win every game pretty reliably with certain killers. My win condition as survivor depends a lot on the rng team I have and killer type I go up against. Survivors put up with far more variables and bad team mates. Bad team mates will make you lose no matter what you do. It only takes one bad apple to ruin everything against a good killer.
I can win pretty much every game as spirit if I choose the best perks. I never run out of bps as killer to run out of my favorite add ons. I dont have to rely on team mates. It's just me and my fancy walmart headset. I have almost total control of the outcome of the match. It's just whether I mess up too many times or not. Even then you arent really punished as Spirit like even Nurse for being bad. SWF is not an auto win. Plenty of killers have little to no weaknesses and can pretty much win any game. Solo is totally broken due to us having no way of getting fair team mates. You can run a bad killer half the match while nobody does anything and then leaves you to die on first hook. Killers only have to rely on themselves and they refuse to acknowledge what a huge advantage that gives them.
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I think your post is over dramatic, i mean the idea that freddy passive flickering while awake is equal to wraith is baffling as freddy has normal 32 TR when awake. I just think that mechanics like freddy's automatic dream world or pig traps that create secondary objectives are extremely easy to use and become like free lesser old hex:ruin. as such, your not punished as hard for failing a chase compare to other killers that have way more pressure to get value from their power. This also applies instant downs as you can get really fast early snowball going but mess up later in the game but not get punished for it because you've snowballed too far ahead for survivor catch up.
I don't feel freddy is that oppressive as his teleport both has global sound cue and visual cue and playing against snares really are not that much different from facing clown. waking up to avoid his add-on is not particularly difficult either. Freddy is fair to face and relatively balanced. His high stat are attribute to being easy to play and solo survivors playing poorly against him due to coordination required to beat him. The amount of changes you suggest are practically rework worthy and Freddy already got reworked because people said he was F-tier. To me, it sounds counter-productive to change a killer to be worse after reworking him to become better. I like old freddy more than new freddy purely because i felt like old freddy had a more hand-on approach to the game and he felt more tactical. It just feels like he lost a sense of uniqueness from his previous iteration to new one. I hope that heavy aura-reading gameplay maybe returns one day to some other new killer in the future.
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He is one of the most annoying killers for sure.
A big issue is that his Dream Pallets actually slow survivors down, since they go through the entire animation for them. There's no tell, other than being awake, and if pallets are burned and replaced on a part of the map you haven't been you're screwed. To add onto this, his Dream Snares cannot be avoided.
All of this, unless you're awake. And he puts people in the dream so quickly and easily now, that the associated risk with waking up is magnified. Skill checks and alarm clock locations are RNG (though usually very far away from you), and survivors in the dream cannot wake up other sleeping survivors.
He has a lot going for him passively, before you even get to the generator teleport.
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Lol no, you are tripping.
Your confirmation of this is a conclusion that its confirmed LMAO.
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Omg, geez that must've been rough.
Aye tho, at least you tried. :P
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Wow, this post is fantastic and accurate, and yet everyone is freaking out that he alluded to the stats. If he hadn't mentioned the stats, but had merely pointed out that Freddy is too strong and how to balance him, would everyone still be reacting so poorly?
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Your experience does not reflect everyone's though. Most Freddy's I run up against I can beat because there is counter play to him. The only thing I hate about him are his rubber arms.
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Don't forget too that if you want to wake up you have to either miss a skill check (wasting time/charges/notifying the killer of your location/might not work if he has paintbrush), find another survivor (waste time), get hooked (ouch), or run to the opposite side of the map to find a clock.
It wouldn't be unreasonable if you could wake up at any clock tbh, that would be a step in the right direction adjustment since he has so much in his kit
He's also unbearably easy to play if you have half a brain... people say spirit is a brain dead killer but it's really freddy
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The stats show exactly how easy a killer is to play. The reason that nurse is so low is because most people who play her are still learning how to play her. But what it shows is that 1. Freddy skill floor is very low. This is the issue with Freddy. There's nothing wrong with a strong killer, like nurse if that killer earns that win through effort and hard work. The problem with Freddy is that you don't earn a win with him, it's given to you.
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We don't have him on Switch, which could contribute to low pick rate. Cause I WANT HIM, DAMMIT!
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I definitely remember that. And I had the same
reaction last time as this time. Why even bother releasing anything?
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Hey uh, this entire thread is a kinda too long didn't read, so sorry if I make you repeat something xD.
Freddy's killrate is highest for 2 main reasons:
1 - Extremely easy to utilise: Slap a rank 10 killer on him and he'll beat most squads, where with another killer, he wouldn't as the player is bad. It's extremely clear that Freddy just rofl stomps noobs as all ranks up to like maybe rank 2 and 1 just because of how easy he is to play.
2 - Literally designed to do well against solo Q: Freddy is very reliant on mistakes and snowballs off them very easily, and as everyone knows, solo Q makes lots of mistakes due to crappy MM and lack of communications.
Think of it this way - Oni is probably the biggest noob stomper in the game. If Oni took no skill his killrate would be higher than Freddy's and I guarantee that.
Plus, my dud, you're taking conclusions from stats in a game hell bent on RNG and matchmaking. Freddy gets stomped against 4 mans.
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Does anyone take time off from griping to actually play the game anymore? Just make a killer bot and let these noobs play VS it. Same with noob killers. Slap a bot in and let people live. This is such nonsense non stop. Killers and survivors get so many nerfs it's killing the game off. I leave for a year and come back and the cry babies are catered to insanely. Just fix match making and put these kids where they belong. Rank 20. They don't want to do anything but want their hand held on escape or 4 free kills and max blood.
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Honestly makes sense I don't play against Freddy much don't have the pleasure I guess just my luck but when I play Freddy it does seem to be a issue but as you said and I trust your not just feeding some bs it is no doubt easier split up but nice call on the being aware of the gens you run to even I tard out and run to by unfinished gen this may help me so thank you
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I agree with you 100 percent lol I'm a killer main and I remember I used to play freddy a lot. It was no point in playing matches when you instantly load up survivors either dc or don't play. Why? Cause nobody wants to play a freddy op a** . I still play him but only when I see toxic players I remember. I instantly back out switch to him and load back in with the same people
No lie first fredward was poop but still got to rank 1 with him as well .
Honestly I'm happy if they nerf his lunge, put his sleep timer a slight bit higher and make choose between 1 ability with add ons. Either pick between pallets,snares or teleporting.
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pointing out that he shouldn't use vague stats to draw specific conclusions is not "reacting poorly".
either way, he's still wrong is most of what he said even without taking into account the stats.
and he didn't even reply to the entire thing like he kept asking me to do... isn't that cute?
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I never asked you to reply to the entire thing I asked you to reply to my points and not make this about the chart. You insist though to derail the thread continuously because I reference the chart as supporting evidence NOT as the basis for my argument.
Then you go and make the most half ass attempt to reply, literally single lines of text to single lines of text (newsflash a point is not individual sentences) in an effort to further derail the conversation by purposely making it as difficult as possible to reply to you, which I did anyway.
What you did is the most intellectually dishonest thing I've seen on these forums. Considering how this place is, that says a lot.
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Nah he's fine your just not good at the game as survivor, he is great in some aspects but it's just like bubba, just run him around and pull a pallet down early, I win against him most of the time but I can see what you mean, maybe remove one of his abilities like the teleport and you have a balanced killer, only then will people say buff him, you can never be happy, just deal with it.
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Another one that didn't actually read anything.
If you did you'd realize I'm making these points based on playing Freddy myself at rank 1 since his rework.
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mate, you didn't even read my entire post, because you didn't even realize there was a reply to the newest one at the end of it.
apparently I need to allow you to gish gallop aswell...
but no...I'm the one that's intellectually dishonest here...
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I made 5 very clear points, you could have responded to those with bullet points.
Instead you chose to respond to almost every sentence I wrote and chopped up the entire thing into tiny bits for the sole purpose of making it harder to reply to you (which IS gish galloping BTW) and being spiteful when I asked you to respond to my points and not the chart (again my points are not individual sentences). I humored you the first time and replied then you did the exact same thing with 1 line responses, no punctuation that were clearly written in haste just to put down some response. I'm not even going to bother wasting my time responding a second time. Make a point or stop replying please. As you put it... "HOW you say things, matter."
It is intellectually dishonest AND gish galloping. The fact you now accuse me of both is hilarious.
Imagine being so salty you took easy bait that you now go full throttle troll mode.
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Thank you! I was playing as Freddy last night and I mentioned this to the survivors at the end and they said it's more advantageous to split into teams of two against Freddy. So theres another angle for you, if you like! My thinking with Freddy (or any high mobility killer) is, the more spread out you are the less likely he can just TP to a gen and get you. And if you have 3 gens going while 1 person is being chased, it theoretically go faster.
I'm absolutely open to suggestions and comments though. If my logic doesn't make sense to anyone else, I'd love to hear other suggestions!
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It's interesting how you ignore your own skill. Freddy plays himself. A good nurse is a good killer, a good Freddy is... Why should survivors skill matter but not Freddy's skill. I'm not saying that Freddy should be less lethal, I'm saying he should be harder to play. Bad Freddy players should lose to bad survivors,just like a bad Nurse will lose vs bad players.
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Instead you chose to respond to almost every sentence I wrote and chopped up the entire thing into tiny bits for the sole purpose of making it harder to reply to you (which IS gish galloping BTW)
I broke down the entire post because otherwise it would be hard to see exactly what I was replying to.
I stopped in the sentences I stopped, because you used that first part as the building blocks for the following parts, so I had to address those before going on.
and also you kept going on and on about how I had to address your entire post instead of focusing on the part I actually had an issue with. So I went all in. normally I wouldn't bother doing it with that many breaks, because it's unnecessary, but I was annoyed at you.
also, I can't gish gallop if you don't let me. this is text. you can reply to every single individual point I make. there's no time limit.
and being spiteful when I asked you to respond to my points and not the chart (again my points are not individual sentences).
they kinda are. each individual sentence is a point or a set up to a point or an example...to summarize, every sentence is helping your point in some way, otherwise they are useless and shouldn't be there.
So it's perfectly fine to address it in that way.
btw if I took entire paragraphs at a time, the reply would be the same, but you would have to keep going back and forth to see which part of the paragraphs I was replying to. So while the way I formated the reply might not be the simplest to reply to, it certainly makes it easy for you to see what I'm addressing at each point.
I humored you the first time and replied then you did the exact same thing with 1 line responses, no punctuation that were clearly written in haste just to put down some response.
you literally did the same, and didn't even have the courtesy of reading my entire post.
english is not my first language, so sorry if my ponctuation isn't to your standards...
I'm not even going to bother wasting my time responding a second time. Make a point or stop replying please. As you put it... "HOW you say things, matter."
you do know this is like our 8th interaction or something right?
I made my point several times already, you just ignored it time and time again.
it does, but HOW I say things doesn't change WHAT I'm saying. I already told you the issues with your post, you refused to address it.
It is intellectually dishonest AND gish galloping. The fact you now accuse me of both is hilarious.
the fact this sentence makes 0 logical sense to be put there is actually fascinating... it's like you just wrote the conclusion without bothering to write the premise.
let's see why you say I'm intellectually dishonest...
1- I'm making this about the chart
2- derailing the thread
3- purposefully making my post in a way that would make it hard to reply to
I believe these are all of them....
1-My first post was actually about you playing the victim card when people disagreed with you.
-then you said you made the title as bait.
-then I replied to a different post, because there were new comments already, and called out how using past charts as support for new charts is not valid. and pointed out that when you use bait, you get fish.(since that was the reply to your previous post)
-then you doubled down on the charts being good. because you interpreted them in a way that they are.
-then I explained to you why the charts don't say what you think they say.
and let me be perfectly clear here... you COULD be right. but the charts don't confirm it. they are too vague.
If I give you a chart of the average of crimes per area of a city, you can say which area has more crimes, but it doesn't say what crimes, who commits them, why, or on who.
Your entire post, is not confirmed by the charts. Your post, is your interpretation of WHY the chart is that way.
logically speaking, your post without the chart part is A, the chart is B.
you should be saying A->B. to put it in another way, 'B is the result of A' or 'the chart is like this because freedy is op'
but you keep trying to say A+B->B.
You want B to both mean that freddy is OP, and to be a premise of the argument for freddy being op. It just doesn't work that way. and I was pointing out this failure in your logic.
-then you triple down on charts being fine without understanding why I say they aren't.
-and we go more and more into the chart thing...
I might have made it about the chart, but it's not how it started.
2- if anything, my first post is the only one unrelated to your first post. because I was making a comment on your reaction to criticism. everything else has been about your first post or at least one of your arguments for freddy being op.
so this doesn't apply.
3- I didn't do it on purpose. but I do see how it can be anoying to reply to it.
but you also made a post in a similar way to mine, and I replied to it. so if I'm guilty of this, so are you.
Imagine being so salty you took easy bait that you now go full throttle troll mode.
I don't think you read up to the point where I broke down how our early interactions happened here in general terms... but if you did, you saw how that's not what happened. (you can also read everything if you want, just use my name to find the relevant posts. I already know you don't like reading long post, so I don't think you will read them all, but feel free to prove me wrong)
also, you can't both go into "this is a troll" and "my argument is correct". pick one.
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You. Just. Did. It. Again.
"also, I can't gish gallop if you don't let me. this is text. you can reply to every single individual point I make. there's no time limit."
Like you can't be for real with this kind of comment. I'm not MAKING you gish gallop you did that on your own and it's intellectually dishonest. If you really don't think you are gish galloping and being intellectually dishonest with your replies, I honestly have nothing else to say to you. You're not adding anything to the discussion, you're not actually addressing my points or even providing valid counterpoints when you do, you're intentionally trying to trigger me and/or derail the conversation by making it about the charts. Come at me with a reasonable response and we can have a discussion. I'm not playing this bit with you.
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why in that order?
why a bad killer should lose to bad survivors?
why bad survivors should beat a bad killer?
if skill is equal, shouldn't it be a coin flip? (not as in luck, as in you shouldn't be able to tell who will win)
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I wonder if you noticed the part in my reply where I said you wouldn't read it?
you don't actually wanna have a conversation, you want people to say "yes you are right" and move on.
so in the end, you want the echo chamber you accused these forums of being... ironic isn't it?
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This chart also says nerf pig
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I wholeheartedly agree with this comment. At the end of the day survivors have 4 people with four sets of perks they can use to help them. A killer is one person. They should be a one man army. I think every killer should be brought up to Freddy's level, maybe not exactly the way he is, but nevertheless. Saying Freddy feels oppressive is silly because he's supposed to be, both from game design of an asymmetrical game where one party is strong and the other is many, and from a lore standpoint where you never know where he is or what he's doing. I also don't include or see the value in one person's data. You say you didn't just use the stats, and I respond with "So?" I play at rank 1 and have had 10 3-4k trapper games in the past two days, I also played Freddy 10 times and got about 2-3k on average. So by how personal data is infallible Trapper should be nerfed and Freddy buffed? At the end of the day you can't have a asymmetrical game where the many are the strong as well. OP I ask this of you, and in doing so, instantly settle this thread
Would you rather Trapper/Wraith/Clown be as strong as Freddy? Or Freddy, Spirit and Nurse be as weak as Trapper?
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I did read it, I only quoted that one statement because it's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not going to sit here and feed you.
There are people that disagreed with me and gave valid points. I responded to those points. We had a conversation. What you are doing is not that. Like you said, ONCE AGAIN, it's how you say it ;)
EDIT: Additionally you should stop with this classic troll tactic of "no you". It's getting old.
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yes you are right
moving on
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tends to be the case when the post is something that's on its face, asinine.
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I thought this would be a jab at the recent developer stream when OoO was said to be "fine" because it was fine in the stats the devs pulled.
I was disappointed.
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You're misreading and not understanding what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say that we need killers who are based off of player skill. What we don't need are killers who are noob stompers.
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My question is why are charts put out just for the devs to say “its not accurate”?
This happens all the time.
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Fact of the matter is they are accurate you just have to not look at them in a bubble. You need context.
Freddy having the highest kill rate, at both all ranks AND red ranks, for TWO data dumps in a row should be a red flag that something is up. That something being he has too many very strong tools in his base kit. He would be a LOT more balanced and skillful if we took away some of those tools, then added them to his bad add-ons and buffed them slightly (which is basically what I suggest to do at the end of the OP).
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But if no one is asleep how would he be able to attack and have them remember him? That's why the timer is ESSENTIAL. If there is no timer then MicroSleep is nonexistent. Which means the characters in game theoretically could not sleep. So Freddy in fact would not be able to attack and in fact NO ONE would ever see Freddy.
So yes it doesn't make sense because it literally doesn't. You need the timer. And he needs them to sleep. Litterally in Freddy's lore (1980's lore and 2010's lore)
I watched every Nightmare on Elm Street, and I have played Old and New Freddy.
Old Freddy was extremely weak and everyone regarded him as "F" Tier.
New Freddy allows for more stronger counterplay to Survivors. Teleportation to Generators is only essential if you left a generator that was 80% done, and needed to return quick.
Dream Pallets are 100% Counterable by dropping all pallets early before Freddy could theoretically hit them.
Dream Snares are avoidable if you are in MicroSleep, not in "Deep Sleep" and you can still loop while impacted by a dream snare. You just have to avoid using easily guessable tactics. Like vaulting into shack or trying to loop a T wall.
Freddy would easily exploit these easily guessable tactics if you got hit by a dream snare. Another way to avoid them is buy forcing the trigger if Freddy is far away from them. Then freddy will walk over (rather than waste a gen teleport) so you have time to escape.
So New Freddy is counterable, it just takes learning.
Old Freddy was just plain weak as hell.
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