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Someone Necroed this by accident because first post weirdness plz ignore
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4 keys is hardly better than one key.
Like others have said, gens still need to be done and the survivors need to be in a decent position to be able to use it. Keys don't carry people like moris did, they just allow people to dip towards the end of a game instead of playing it out.
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"the survivors" with 4 keys one survivor needs to be in a decent position to use it, everything carries everybody keys and moris are just at the front
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Survivors have to do most if not all of the gens still, they need to find the hatch and they need to asemble everyone to the hatch without the killer noticing as they will just close it, all whilst the killer is chasing and hooking survivors.
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4 keys, whats closing it gonna do, let the next person open it in a conga line out hatch
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Right, but all the other conditions still apply.
And who brings in 4 keys in a match? That's like bringing in 4maps. I've not once ever seen that happen.
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I was just thinking about how to rework keys, what would be a way to make them not useless but also not have them prematurely end the match the way they can now.
As a rework: The key's base power only allows the survivor who uses it to escape through the hatch.
An iridescent add-on would allow the key to work as keys currently do, keeping the hatch open for a period of time, but it would require the survivor to go through an unlocking animation that is not instant and that the killer can interrupt. Keeping this function limited to an iridescent add-on means no one key found in a chest can allow multiple survivors to escape.
Sorry, I'm just throwing this out there and I should totally be in bed right now. I'll wake up and realize this idea was terrible, I'm sure lol.
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stop trying to argue that they aren't both bad, they are both need nerfs, moving on
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personally to get them to about the same power and not end the match early my thought was they let the last survivor open hatch
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Or, you know, people could just not baselessly accuse the devs of pro-survivor bias :P
There is no particular reason to release both changes together since the balance of one has nothing to do with the balance of the other. They should just release the changes once they're ready.
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You're entirely correct. The other factor too is that offerings are supposed to be weak, so massively nerfing Moris in this way was totally justified; they just need to be in the same ballpark as things like Putrid Oaks, Cut Coins, and Murky Reagents in terms of strength in order to be balanced.
Keys, meanwhile, are in the item slot, so nerfing them into the ground isn't a good option. Given their rarity, they should be roughly as strong as Ranger Medkits, Utility Flashlights, Rainbow Maps, and Engineer's Toolboxes in order to be balanced. These are all quite a bit stronger than anything in the offerings slot and they're generally useful in matches, so keys should be the same. It's not reasonable to give them the full Mori treatment and assign them some niche effect.
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I have trouble imaging the devs doing that. It would make keys nearly useless. Survivors have no options with that. I really don't think keys are used that much now, as is. It's just that when they are used, they're really frustrating for the killer. On Friday, running Plunderer's and Appraisal for six matches, I found four keys in chests. I never used a single one. Another survivor who picked up one of my keys didn't get to use it, either. Keys as they are already require luck with the RNG and avoiding the killer while you scour the map looking for the hatch.
If a key allows only the survivor using it to escape, then they either A. abandon their team before the end of the match, or B. use it to escape after the killer has closed the hatch as the last survivor left.
Another thing that would make keys more fair would be a slight change to the hatch mechanic. When the hatch closes after a survivor uses a key, the hatch disappears and respawns elsewhere. Four survivors each with their own key can't line up at the hatch to escape. If two survivors are left and one escapes with a key, the final survivor can't just sit there and wait for the hatch to reopen; they have to go find its new location. (If a killer finds the hatch and closes it and no key was used to open it, then the hatch does not respawn elsewhere. This allows a daring final survivor to follow the killer to find where the hatch is and then use a key after the killer closes it.) While it sounds like it'd be annoying to code, I think it actually wouldn't be. When a map is generated before a match, a hatch location is chosen. With this change, the game just needs to choose four hatch spawn locations instead of one.
The iridescent add-on that lets the hatch stay open longer so more survivors can escape was something I suggested mostly because the "Where did they go" achievement exists, and I assume the devs don't want to rework that achievement. The add-on being iridescent means it can never screw a killer by being found in a chest. In normal gameplay, when not going for the achievement, that add-on would be competing with other add-ons like the milky glass, so a survivor would be sacrificing a valuable slot for expensive, risky (the hatch takes longer to open if using the iridescent add-on even if you're the only survivor left) altruism.
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yes it would cause what if people have keys in their inventory lol then added on the fact the addons would have to be removed too
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genius, sees the post scrolls down past the mod post affirming that key changes are happening, and past the post of me acknowledging the mod post, yes I know key changes are coming and I have my hopes set for them to be fair (they won't be)
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they made moris weaker, might as well fix it now fully instead of some now some later like moris
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Well, yeah. And a change like only allowing one survivor per hatch/regular key to escape would be a lot weaker than the current keys. Unlike an Ivory Mori, which is Rare and only affects one survivor, keys would only affect one survivor and are still Very Rare and Ultra Rare. On top of that, in the example I gave, in order to use the key for more than one survivor to escape, it would be a Very Rare or Ultra Rare key + an Ultra Rare add-on. An Ebony Mori affects all four survivors and requires just one Ultra Rare offering.
Also, with a comment like this about keys only being responsible for 2% of escapes
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1804002/#Comment_1804002
it's implied that overall keys do not affect matches on the same level that moris did. (I wish they'd give the numbers for the percentage of kills moris accounted for; that question was asked multiple times and never answered.)
From my own experience (which I know overall is anecdotal and meaningless, but this is what most if not all of us are basing our opinions on), I'm able to use a mori offering or even just Rancor's mori way, way easier than I do keys. 90% of the keys I find end up as so much metal garbage at the feet of a used hook, and another 5%+ aren't used for a hatch escape but instead are ferried through the exit gate and end up collecting dust in my inventory. Keys as they are definitely aren't okay, multiple survivors escaping without completing their objective is bad, and while they've only screwed me over as killer a few times those times were indeed very very frustrating. But moris still let killers bypass DS and get around the possibility of flashlight saves, pallet saves, and hook sabo'ing. Moris are less powerful than they were before, definitely, but they're not useless.
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its implied, however unless we have more factors that 2% statistic is about as important as the president or prime minister of a country you don't live in.
However saying its a "key nerf" to take up an addon slot to be old keys is the worse idea I have heard for balance since all of those perk ideas for survivor movement speed.
No you shouldn't be able to have hatch stay open for more than one survivor under any circumstances and if its 2 people at 2 gens left tough the hatch disappears after the first guy jumps in to go somewhere else if its still one out.
However the true balance in terms of making them not a main aspect of gameplay like moris would just be to open the hatch if you are the last survivor, killers don't have to worry about any midgame escape and left behind + key becomes 10x more useful. Neither side really has to worry about keys or moris ever again.
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Sorry I don't type in perfect English. This is an online forum not a school essay I guess some people are just to uptight to know the difference.
While it seems the blunder you have made is a lack of speculation, for knowing this game and most all of its aspects is good on paper but being able to use that information to speculate changes for the health of the game seems to be out of your field of capability but trust me its well within my ball park.
However you are judging me by your standards, standards which just seem a tad too low as if you already came here just so you could look down your nose at people especially for someone who wouldn't bother to read more than one message before jumping to accusations especially a 5 day old message before more information was given.
Unfortunately the logical fallacy assuming the conclusion is just wishful thinking at this point, knowing the devs and using all calculations and thoughts that might go through their heads when redesigning I can tell you that it won't be as impactful as the mori nerf, or as impactful as it should be.
Assuming the conclusion is a logical fallacy to tell people not to use facts, knowledge, and experience (which I have plenty), along with critical thinking skills to put myself in the shoes of the devs and think up hypothetical and potential situations which are barreling towards us soon.
If you don't want people to speculate how about you just ignore them or go somewhere else because it would never happen
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not reading this im just taking a do over on the last one
You seeming like logical fallacy and pointing out how I jump to conclusions so im gonna do it even more but about you instead
So judging by your writing level I'm going to assume you are between a 11th grade to freshman at college, my guess between that range is freshman at college taking a English class or going for an English degree, based on your current information in your class I'm guessing one of the last things you would have learned about in the class was logical fallacy which is why you most likely have it fresh on the mind because that's what you learned at the end of the semester before finals so its fresh enough in the mind to use in online discussion without having a webpage opened up on logical fallacy.
My guess since you seem like an argumentative person is that you use online discussion boards as a stomping ground to use your English prowess to write out lengthy posts calling other people wrong for both learning purposes of getting better at English writing from firsthand experience, so that you can win online arguments and feel better about yourself as a person, and so you can vent your argumentative side so you don't take that with you into your life with the people you care about, but are still ready to turn on a dime and use it against them if you still need it.
And judging by the fact you are a English centered person by your writing I'm going to assume you are either going for an English degree or are a English and history centered person because that is generally how people develop with math and science or English and history, which means its unlikely that you got a high score on your act or sats except in the English portion, my guess is that your composite score is around 22 while your English score was 29 and other scores were around 19-18-21 (act I don't know about sat), so being a solely English centered portion you play to your strengths by learning words and other rules of English to run circles around people in online arguements.
However being that you composite score is low you most likely didn't get into the college of your dreams to get the $80,000 useless degree but instead got into a secondary option school, so to vent frustration but keep your English skills sharp you start online arguments with strangers.
Alright tell me how far off I am but at least appreciate that I took the logical fallacies and ran with them
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well I was right about the being in or was in college part, still weird that you would browse an online forum to call people out at your age on comments that were answered two seconds later by mods but, cheers, Michigan is pretty cool it has culver's which I can't wait to spread out more because their butter burgers are pretty tasty.
to quote one of my favorite lines from myself "this salsa slaps" this was said because the salsa I made slaps
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You know when they do these kind of things it's actually giving the people who accuse devs of survivor bias the ammo to push the narrative of bias further and its making it harder for people to deny they are bias, when they do stuff like this.
There is a reason to have waited for both as they are both game shorterners, both are frustrations of either side and both are broken in the right hands. Also these two items have been debated together for many years and the general conceness is that if you want to chage one the other one has to change at the same time.
This could of been a easy win for them if they went "hey we heard you about keys and moris and here are the changes for both we hope you enjoy the changes and hope it ease the frustration that these items have caused for either sides." instead we got angry posts and damaged trusts of the devs which sucks :/
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The unrest is strong with this thread. 229 comments and 8 pages later cant be wrong.
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Only dude that knows. What you said is straight facts. Most items and addons have been nerfed to the ground.
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Mm, I wouldn't want to guess or presume. It's dangerous to do that. (Unless spreading our guesses around gets the devs to actually give us an answer, in which case... I think moris accounted for 267% of kills!!)
Ugh, god, you guy are right. Keys are going to become next to useless. Happy day as a killer, sucks as a survivor.
Maybe what we're going to see is that the hatch no longer spawns at all until it's open, so the key can only be used by the final survivor to open a hatch that the killer closed. That would be nice in some respects, no more hatch camping survivors. Hatch campers are one of the more annoying things to see both as survivor and killer.
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well it is a provoking topic which is on me but also it shows how hot blooded people are on this topic
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you know I hate the mori chain and I hate keys but if they make it so only one can get out he hatch what the hell are they going to do with that one achievement/trophy that make it so 4 survivor have to go down the hatch?
I mean I got it a long time ago but it wasn't easy but this would make it impossible.
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actually thats easy, nothing, the literally can't on most platforms they can't change it because its still "technically possible"
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Well, if they literally make it impossible then they have to change the achievement. That's what happened when they changed Legion's mechanics, they had to change his "Deranged Pursuit" achievement.
If it's still possible but just way more difficult, like the "Left For Dead" achievement after the EGC was added, then just be happy you completed it before it became a bigger headache.
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it only easy in swf I did it solo some how.
that true I wont have to worry about it but suck for tho who don't have it done.
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Two bloodweb offerings:
One thickens mist and gives advantage to Survivors but costs 3k bp
The other is completely useless and costs 7k bp
I know which one I'm going for:
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yea except for the daily that gives 60k then it only costs -53k and its suddenly worth it again
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You know what's stupider. Nerfing hoarder. The only thing that can make keys less-likely to appear, is nerfed to oblivion. What the hell do I gain from seeing survivors open a chest by a mile away? It's not like my slow-ass killer can stop it. It doesn't even reset the progress of unlocking when they leave it + the amount of chests that'll show up will literally make this perk garbage to killers and an up for survivors. Thx for the balance.
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Hoarder wasn't nerfed for balance. Changing the probability of items in chests caused unexpected bugs that don't have an easy fix. The devs are still working on Hoarder; its current state is not meant to be its permanent state.
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I didn't know that, thank you for the update. Glad it's because of a bug.
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You're absolutely right that it gives people ammo to complain, but still, people will see whatever they want to see once they've made up their minds that the devs have a pro-survivor agenda. The forum is full of people who think that, despite the fact that the game has been getting gradually less survivor-sided for years and that Behaviour has a vested economic interest in making their game balanced and fun for both sides.
I just don't think it's worth delaying Mori changes because of salty people on the forum. People can create an association between keys and Moris all they'd like, but that doesn't mean that the devs should feel compelled to make simultaneous balance changes when addressing either of them. The balance of one has absolutely nothing to do with the other and the devs should do whatever they think is best for balance. If they want to buff Pyramid Head's butt before Quentin's face, for example, they can be my guest; the important thing is that the changes being made are healthy for the game. It's just not realistic to expect the devs to fix the game in a single Z patch, so I think it's better to simply evaluate the changes that are made.
I'm sure keys will get looked at soon, and I hope people don't get mad about a lack of corresponding killer nerfs when they inevitably get reworked too.
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The 3k one can't earn you 60k for mori dailies, though.
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Np. I should've posted the link to the dev's comment in my original post so you could see exactly what was said for yourself, so here it is:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1816340/#Comment_1816340
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This logic is.....contradictive thinking. Mori's do literally the exact same thing. End the game prematurely for the survivor you mori. not only that, it puts them on the back foot extremely easily with how easy it was to get it off. Keys have a prerequisite that needs to be filled, and even then, it DOES have counter play....unlike mori. Keys DO have franklin, like you mentioned, and rarely do i see a build that relies so heavily on 4 perks in perfect synergy unless they're the usual meta perks. Regardless of even that, the initial point is your complaint is that survivors can end the match prematurely. Again, so could killers with old mori. It immediately put any survivors into a massive disadvantage, and sometimes it can be within the first minute or two if you have a competent killer player. I rarely run into a scenario where I get a key used on me. It definitely has happened, but rarely have I had it where 3 survivors go out a hatch with the key. I mainly see this issue when its a group of SWF players. So nerf SWF, not the keys. SWF has and still is a huge problem...
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lol just throw away one of your four perks to counter my one item while I also run 4 meta perks,
sounds balanced to me
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Thats the point of the perk. Might as well just remove it cause whats the sense of a counter perk if everyone thinks its dumb...
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If something is too strong to the point where you need to throw away 1/4 of your build as killer as a "counter" then something should be done about it if its against survivor its more acceptable because they have 16 perks between them
Its not the counter perk people think is dumb its the throwing away 1/4 of your perks as killer which are more impactful than survivor perks and you only get 4 of them
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Remove the perk then, because the perk is doing what it's intended to do. You have too heavy of a prerequisite on the item as it is. Gens need to be done AND people need to be dead, or you need to be the last survivor left and the killer has to have found the hatch first. I think the most they can do as it is, is to allow 1 person through the hatch at a time. That only makes it so the last 2 can really get through. Even then though, with how they buffed Franklins, it's good because you can see where the item is on the ground, so you know if they are going back for it. It gives you information as well. It's not nearly as bad as people would think it is. And yes, you are going to have more perks from survivor side. It's 1v4. Unless they magically allow killers to have 6 perks, it will be hard to find a way to nerf keys.
Survivors have perks that are intended to counter killers abilities too. Thats the reason its a perk. It's used to give you an advantage in some way....
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the perk wasn't designed to singlehandedly make keys balanced all of a sudden
gens need to be done? 1-2 fly at the start of the match guaranteed, record 100 matches first 2 minutes and count how many have 1-2 gens done before the first 2 minutes of a match are up
survivors dead, thats a given because 1-2 gens just flew and the killer will be racing to mount pressure probably by killing a survivor
whats this you have at least 80 seconds of time to sit on a gen while your teammate gets farmed and dies, congrats if you just secured a win if another teammate dies or you can do 1 more gen
"unless the killers had 6 perks it would be hard to find a way to nerf keys"
no it wouldn't here let me help you find it
keys can't be found in chests
keys only open the hatch if you are the last survivor
new key secondary use open chests faster and increase rarity of item / put addons on the item
bam suddenly balanced to not be game changing items
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that's completely irrelevant. I'm saying remove the ability for keys to spawn in chests. Inventory doesn't matter.
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so what just remove keys from the game then the survivors will complain about moris lol and what if you bring keys and people are p3 with like 100 skeletons then more crying killers will complain
u dont realize how the game would work without keys because if they remove them now the p3 tryhards will come back
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Nerf to keys doesn't have to be on par with the nerf to moris. You know why? Because pink moris are several times more powerful than any key.
You want to talk nerfs? How about that toolbox nerf they did several DLCs ago where they utterly rendered Toolboxes and all their addons completely useless?
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so you are commenting there on the first post of a 10 day old thread
Both should be on the same power level weak and barely have an effect on gameplay because neither were or are good for the game
The toolbox nerf was needed because they were catastrophically broken
180 charges of gen speed at 140% because you brought a green item with a yellow and brown addon for ONE person when you can have a team of 4 with this, cutting team objective time down to 285.7142857 down from 400
new toolboxes are much weaker when found mid match but can still be built to be strong
its kinda like self care the perk that was so impactful that not only was it nerfed from 80% to 50% but it also changed healing across the board from 12 to 16 seconds but can still reach old strength with more build dedication
calling toolboxes useless because they actually require build dedication to be Extremely strong again instead of just easy to bring on top of 4 meta perks is just entitled
you can still bring bnp + commodious + 12 more charges for 44 charges of 150% speed and 5 seconds of 400% speed but I guess that isn't enough for you because you want your 140% speed for 180 charges
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I really couldn't follow most of that, but I'm not advocating for all keys to be removed, just remove them from chests. They would still appear on bloodweb, ya know. And that's the laziest fix, honestly I'd prefer if they were used to open chests and chests became much harder to open.
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Don't know if anyone else decided to tell you this, but the devs don't care about crosshairs. They can't prevent people from using them, so they said it isn't anything you could get banned for or is consider cheating, it's just looked down upon.
Someone having a cross hair to know where the center of their screen is gives them far less of an advantage than Survivors who use Comms to tell their friends where the killer is all the way across the map. But that's not considered cheating now is it.
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It had better not just be a time to open thing as a nerf since that literally does nothing.
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so basically ur saying nerf chests right so get a horribly slow open timer in which the chest looters will probably stop playing so they will lose players and keys are used to open chests but you can't get them in chests? kind of stupid considering the rng on the keys would have to be higher so then if you opened a chest with a skeleton key you get a purple flashlight or purple engineer/alex so all the sweaty survivors can farm their 8000 purple flashlights with amp and green battery
there are many flaws to your plan that you have to think out before you go around suggesting changes lol
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