What *Exactly* Makes NOED Unfair?
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AKA when the killer hooks a survivor at the NOED totem, there's nothing you can do.
Once spawned it absolutely can secure a kill (if you disregard 4% or Deliverance). I didn't think this was up for debate really.
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I think in solo queue survivor its very hard to deal with but by no means unfair you have a killer with 3 perks essentially till the last gen pops and potentially still on 3 perks if the totems are done/booned.
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Survivor's entitlement
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I checked the wiki, noed was on a timer of 120 seconds when one exit gate was opened (on its second iteration). What people ask here is noed to be on a 60 seconds timer when the fifth gen pops.
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You can just force a killer to choose between hook or totem even with it, and it won't happen for 99% of times anyway.
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As someone who understands the balance of NOED. I think I understand why so many people don't like it. It makes survivors feel like they've lost their reward. Just when they think they've won and there is nothing the Killer can do to stop them - dazzle, the hit the survivor took for a speed increase to the gate just turned into an exposed down.
It's easier to blame the perk at that point, than blame the player for not understanding there was still game left and taking free hits isn't actually a skillful way to survive.
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Things like unhealthy or unfun are very subjective so it's going to depend on each individual. I personally dislike NOED because it generally is just a 'free kill' perk. Regardless of how well, or how badly you happen to be doing NOED just adds an extra kill on top. There is no real counter-play except under specific conditions. If you're solo/duo it's unlikely you'll be able to co-ordinate how many totems have actually been cleansed at all and even if you're a 4 man if you're going to cleanse all totems every match you're giving the killer huge amounts of free slowdown that could cost you many games. Sure if it's a Trapper and your team is good you can spare the time to cleanse all totems but what if it's a good Blight, Spirit, Artist or Nurse? You don't have time to go cleanse all totems or you'll probably lose especially if it ends up being a waste because the killer didn't even have NOED in the first place.
As for how strong NOED actually is it depends on a few things. If we're talking average kills per game NOED is one of the best perks period. It will almost always guarantee an extra kill in close or losing matches. So purely from kill-rate it's an insanely powerful perk. In terms of ability to 3K+hatch/4K in a match it's generally not great unless used by Nurse or Spirit. So depending on your goal an the killer you're playing it can be S+ tier of like B tier.
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it’s kinda BS that killers can mori someone just because they’re the obsession. They should at least have to earn it.
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Honestly, i just think it needs some tweaks.
For example:
- A big sound applies in the endgame when NOED is activated, without hit
- Or when the first hit strikes after endgame, then it activates and you see it. But the first hit isn't an instant down.
- For a Hex Totem, its instant rewarding with something huge. How about we get stacks like No Way Out or others?
That would be a lot better.
ALso why i dont like the perk, it rewards camping and slugging huge at the end. Which are just not fun and shouldnt be rewarded tbh.
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Nothing. NOED isn't unfair. It has the most effective counter in the game.
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Dead Hard is far more powerful than NOED.
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I’d argue no, you haven’t lost when the gens are finished. You didn’t fail to stop the survivors yet. Endgame is still a part of the game, and you only fail once they leave the gate. Anything up until then is fair game
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The game itself promotes end game camping and slugging. Once there aren't any gens to patrol, there isn't a good reason to leave someone you've hooked. You know their team is coming, and you have no other objective to defend.
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Yesterday I played against a killer that made 0 hooks before EGC. Logically, he had noed, no other way he could play against 4.000 hours survs. At the end, 2 kills. A totally fine perk, yes
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I agree, Dead Hard is most broken perk in game right now.
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Good teams cleanse NOED. The problem is that survivor perks get nerfed all the time. NOED is the 1 perk that survivors have complained about for years and the only change was making it into a hex. If NOED was a survivor perk, you would see it nerfed to only work if 5 totems are standing for 30 seconds until you get a down.
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Dead Hard? Boon: Circle Of Healing? DS got nerfed after what, 4 years of complaining? Undying got nerfed within months. NOED doesn't need a nerf, you've stated it yourself. NOED gets cleansed by good teams. It's only bad Survivors that suffer from it
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DH COH DS were problems but NOED isn't?
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DH and COH are problems. Ever since the DS nerf, it's been fine. NOED is both counterable before and after it activates. It's a high risk-medium reward Perk. DH is uncounterable and COH deleted a whole playstyle and a few Killers, but no, just because NOED exists, a perfectly counterable Perk, it's not a problem
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Because its a Perk that relies to some extend on Teamwork, and Survivors don't like to do that so the Perk is really Powerful.
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Just stop bothering with people saying that red is blue. It'll save you the headache.
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Your first mistake is thinking 'the Survivors complain about it' is a valid reason to nerf it.
A Killer can't deactivate DH, CoH, or DS before they can be used. The Killer has to play around them no matter what and can't literally turn them off for the entire match.
NoED can be deactivated before it's ever used and can't be reactivated.
Dead Hard: The Killer can't do anything but 'bait it out'.
CoH: The Killer can snuff it, but Survivors can relight it infinitely.
Decisive Strike: The Killer can't turn the perk off. He either has to eat it, or wait it out.
NoED: Survivors can cleanse all totems before it activates. Or cleanse the totem it activates on. Killers can't re-Hex it or rebuild Cleansed totems.
It's almost like you can't compare them, and anyone doing so is making a bad faith argument.
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I mean, if your entire argument against is "hey this killer got some kills in end game" I'm not sure that's as convincing as you believe.
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Both survivor and killer perks are nerfed and reworked frequently, that's how balancing works.
The fact that some forum members continue to make and remake the same noed thread every few days isn't really evidence of anything except perhaps that some people clearly have entirely too little to keep them occupied. As far as it being the 1 perk? BBQ, ruin, pop, Undying, and devour have all had complaints just this year. (And that's after the changes to undying)
I mean, I could make a thread each day complaining about any perk I want, that doesn't make me right, just insistent.
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I may be in the minority but I think NOED is fine. All it does is remove 1 health state at the end of the game from survivors who get multiple extra health states and undeserved second chances ALL GAME LONG. And now with Boons in play, the likelihood of NOED surviving to the end game is even lower. I would be in favor of completely removing NOED and most second chance perks (other than BT).
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NOED is not even that good of a perk anyway. Sure boons lower the chances of it activating but even if it comes into play, most good survivors will just leave and let the killer have their 1k.
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To me it's like if in a sports game (say american football) One team was ahead 50-0, and then in the 4th quarter the losing team automatically wins if they score a touchdown. If they don't score a touchdown nothing changes, no real downside. So basically the killer doesn't lose anything (aside from no value from a perk) if the totem is cleansed early, but if they do get value it can reward a bad killer and punish a good team unfairly. Like no kills suddenly turns into 4.
But to be clear noed doesnt really bother me it's just when a 0k turns into 4k, very cheap and unskilled imo.
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I'm all for completely disabling NOED. Dear devs, take this perk out of the game for a month or two!
And here is why:
Not because NOED is op or unfair or whatever.
Yes, NOED is giving killers kills. A killer should on average get one kill thanks to NOED. Most of the times they are getting more because survivors will very often throw the game in the end and instead of 1k the killer will get a 3 or 4k.
My take is that NOED screws up BHVR's precious statistics. With NOED out of the game I will bet my legacy skins that the average killrate will go down by at least 10%, propably more like 20%.
This will prevent all those games in which the killer was getting 2 or 3 hooks before all gens are done ending in a victory for the killer. NOED puts like a layer of extra kills onto all those games and those kills will show up in the stats.
Then I want to see what BHVR will do about it.
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I don't personally think NOED is unfair by any means. Could it use maybe a tweak of some sort? I guess? But I feel it kind of does anything I would ask for. It lets you know when it is active (granted after someone is hit) and you have an opportunity to avoid it. The argument some of my friends I play with will say is that the killer gets a free kill or two while they were bad the whole game. But, to counter that, I always let them know that if the killer was so bad, why did you get downed?
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Not gonna read through all seven pages of responses, so apologies if my comment is just an echo of someone else's, but...
Imho I don't think NOED is unfair. I just think that it's poorly designed in both playing with and against it, and like many meta perks, exacerbates a lot of issues within the game.
For example, when you play with it as Killer, you have many games where you are pretty much just running three perks since you might not ever even get to end game for it to activate. Or, when you do, it's in a scenario where you've practically already secured your 4k, making it feel like absolute overkill. If you do get to endgame, and you're against a team where you genuinely need it, and it activates- the team will normally be coordinated enough to either leave whoever you downed to die, or just cleanse NOED and get the save, usually making it not worth running compared to something that might have helped you more in the early/mid game. And, at least for me, whenever I do get decent downs with the perk, it doesn't feel as rewarding as just... genuinely outplaying the Survivor to down them, or even getting value out of other exposed perks, such as Devour, Dragon's Grip or Make Your Choice. It just doesn't feel earned to me.
On the flip side, as Survivor, it's the same story. It either feels like overkill- normally because the Killer either rolled you, or had been sweating bullets like they were about to win the Dead by Daylight Olympics E-Sports Tournament by beating some randos in pubs (Which already doesn't feel great if you're not also going into it for that.). Or, it just doesn't feel earned because one moment you're just minding your own business, playing ring around the rosie with a Legion at a pallet, only to take your first hit all game and get insta-downed- and probably left for dead. After all, on the Survivor side, NOED profits heavily on rando Survivors not being able to coordinate with each other- making it quite frustrating on all ends.
The perk isn't unfair by any means, but I personally don't think it feels good to run or go against. It doesn't have that fun, odd aspect to it like perks like Nemesis, Haunted Grounds or Retribution, or it doesn't have the same feeling of having been earned like Ruin, Pop, Devour, or even No Way Out. It falls into that similar vibe with Deadlock. Deadlock is a really good perk, but it doesn't feel rewarding. NOED isn't as good, but it still doesn't feel rewarding. At least for me.
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Because he is more faster with noed?
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You want it to be unfair but it is not.
You decide that you ignore it during the match. You know it exists. You decide you don´t want to cleanse totems during the match.
As stated good teams have no real problem as they remeber the totems and cleanse it only when NOED pops up.
And also stated the match isn´t over when the last gen is done. You know the killer could have endgame perks.
And from all the real endgame perks NOED is not really one, as you could have cleansed all totems during the match.
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I see noed like keys as basekit for survs. It would be only 1 escape
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You are affected by the survivors hook timer though, so you are on a time limit. Its basically guarantees a kill or more for killers against 99% solo queues.
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As a survivor it feels really, really bad to run a killer for 3-5 gens (a skillful play) and have the game taken from you because, after a long run, the killer finally got their lucky hit.
The folks calling that a free win are likely inarticulate, or upset. The large amount of pressure for lowered opportunity cost is what makes the perk feel bad to be hit with.
By the same token, I believe your insistence on not understanding the various, top-level arguments on this topic disingenuous, and I believe you asked this question in bad faith.
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For me it’s simple.
I have nothing against the effect itself, but the design behind the completion of the survivor’s main objective giving the killer an advantage just sounds bad to me.
Like, shame on me for not doing totems, but what did they do exactly ? Aside from simply existing and breathing, that warranted them getting a buff and survivors getting a de-buff for completing their own objective. Seems silly.
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They kept you off totems and played the match with 3 perks.
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Played the match with 3 perks?
They could only bring No Ed and it would still a badly designed perk. That is why most good killers do not run it. It is not rewarding and it feels cheap.
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That's the answer. Or if you want to go by the devs "noed rewards killers for bad survivor gameplay".
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How is the game "taken from you", though? All NOED does is give the killer a slightly cheaper (not free, but closer to free) down, the game isn't over just because you get downed after the last generator popped. Especially in the scenario you described where you've likely not even been hooked yet- your team have a ton of time to find the totem, cleanse it, and go for a save.
And if they just leave... replace that scenario with the killer having an instadown through any other means. Is it the fault of the instadown, or just how the game goes sometimes? You don't always get saved in the endgame, that's just how it is.
I promise that I'm not being disingenuous, I just find that the various top-level arguments here aren't convincing. Many of them rely on an unchallenged assertion that I just don't agree with, which is why I made this thread to begin with- I wanted to probe at those assertions and see if I could make them make sense. So far, no dice.
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How are you gona hate NOED and then turnaround and put on your own crutch perks, they're the same on both sides
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Excuse me if I'm repeating points since I didn't read through all 7 pages, but the thing about NOED is that, as others have pointed out, its only activation condition is the killer existing. They don't have to play the game; hell, there's an entire genre of YouTube and Twitch content that's just people AFKing as strong killers and then returning after the last gen pops to roll the survivors with NOED. That is the main issue with NOED, and why people don't complain about perks like, say, Devour Hope, which have a similar effect - Devour Hope forces killer gameplay to work and NOED needs....nothing. That is deeply unsatisfying to go against for many people. Maybe not you, but many people. I personally have been against killers faking AFK so they can try this multiple times! It is surprisingly common (though a bit less since MMR came into play), and also, if I may editorialise a bit, very annoying! Why should the killer be able to do something like this? How is the fact that you can refuse to play the game and potentially get rewarded for it not in and of itself a massive sign of poor design/"unfairness"?
To address the point about other instadowns: every other instadown in this game either has some kind of condition requiring killer input to activate it, a cooldown, is on a timer, has some kind of drawback or is difficult to use, or multiple/all of the above. When an Oni/Hillbilly/Ghostface/etc instadowns me, yeah, fair play. They did something, they should get rewarded for the effort they put in. If I get camped to death by a Tier III Myers, then yeah, you're right, that's just how the game goes sometimes! Some killer abilities or perks make it hard to save, especially in an endgame scenario, and that's alright. They still had to earn whatever instadown was used to get me on the hook in the first place, though, or, in the case of Haunted Grounds, there's a definitive timer after which it will be safe to save. On the other hand, when I'm in chase with a killer, instadown or no, and they suddenly use their speed boost to down me because I was unlucky enough to be the guy stuck in chase with them when the last gen pops, that feels bad. Especially if you're unlucky enough to be hooked right on their NOED, or you're playing solo so you can't call out totem positions, or any number of other unfortunate circumstances. In the end, it's a perk based almost entirely on luck and not skill for both sides, which is bad design, IMO.
In the end, is it OP? No. Not at all. Annoying, maybe, especially if your luck is bad, but not OP. Is it poorly designed? Yes, very. It's a relic of design that really needs a rework of some kind, or at least to warn survivors the second they're exposed so they can react accordingly.
I'm a killer main who vastly prefers playing killer, BTW, so this isn't me being salty or anything. I rarely run into NOED because I never run it on my killers and I rarely play survivor. It's still pretty blatantly flawed as a perk no matter what perspective you come at it from, though, since half the time, as you yourself have pointed out, NOED won't even do anything for the killer. It is in desperate need of some kind of rework so that it can be more fun for everyone involved.
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It's activation condition is killer existing, totem remaining, and after that specific ONE totem is staying alive.
Just like every other hex perks.
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So, just to set the scene to make sure I don't accidentally imply something I don't mean: I am fully on board with NOED getting a rework. Not a nerf, not just putting even more conditions on its effect to make it even harder to actually make use of (no token system, it's already a bad perk that doesn't do all that much), but something where it's fully redesigned to fill its design niche more effectively. Fully on board, that'd be a great change!
I do have some objections to your argument, though. I fully understand that running the killer fairly well and being smacked with NOED the second that it activates because you were just unlucky enough to be the first guy hit with it is annoying, but what I don't understand is why that's somehow indicative of bad design when it can happen through a myriad of other methods-- what if you happen to be in a chase when the third Devour save happens, or when one of your teammates procs Haunted Grounds? I get that in the abstract it might feel unfair because it's one of the perks in the game that just does something instead of having a requirement (not inherently bad design, plenty of perks just have a static effect without need for killer input), but realistically it is exactly the same and it's not as though that's the game, it can be cleansed again afterwards.
You point out that NOED is kinda dated, that it often doesn't do anything for the killer, and that overall it could use a rework, and on those points I absolutely agree. What it's supposed to do is a great concept and I love that it's a universal perk instead of a teachable, but it just doesn't effectively do more than a single down unless you're lucky enough to be facing lemming survivors or lucky enough to be able to defend a hook and the totem at once- but even in the latter scenario that's a single kill because the other survivors would just leave. The only thing I'm contesting is that it's somehow cheap or poorly designed from the angle of not requiring killer input, because that's also true of plenty of other perks.
But yes- it could do with a redesign to make it more consistently useful. That I definitely agree with, and I'm sure most reworks would make it less annoying for survivors too.
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Wait... so, you're not against a rework for NOED. Do you have proposals?
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Nah, nothing off the top of my head. I saw in the past that it used to have a STBFL type effect, something like that might not be the worst idea- though it might encourage facecamping even more and it definitely wouldn't be good enough on its own, so probably not.
It categorically shouldn't be weaker or harder to acquire/make use of, but its current effect is just too lacklustre. When I say rework, I do not mean putting a token system or a stricter activation requirement on its current effect. Different effect, or nothing.
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People seems to love No Way Out and Haunted Ground... so i think that they could look into that direction. It would solve killers and survivors issues at once (a limit to the snowball potential and more consistency). But if you want a totally different effect, i don't know what they could pull off.
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Because of the extra speed the killer gets when NOED activates? That's my guess.
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It is unfair because it is a lot stronger against solos compared to swf.
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I'd say because it mimics what most Identity V matches are like. Identity V has a perk called 'Detention' which mimics classic NOED. For 120 seconds the killer can insta down anyone. And so most games of IDV go like this,
-Hunter finds someone
-Hunter downs and 'hooks' someone
-All ciphers (gens) go by
-Hunter goes and downs another survivor
-Survivors are forced to leave and let that survivor die
-Tie
This is what makes NOED unfair. It rewards face camping.
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