Why do people think an FOV slider for killers would be unfair?
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Check the post above for a Reddit link with video, but here's my question - when someone says something gives them motion sickness, why is your first instinct to question them? If someone says they're colourblind, would it be alright to question that? If someone says they're hard of hearing, would it be alright to question them about it?
I'm not really sure how to give you "evidence" that playing without Shadowborn gives me motion sickness on some killers, because I can't exactly swap bodies with you. I don't even know how motion sickness works from a physiological standpoint; I just know that playing without it on Blight, Nurse, Oni and Demo (possibly others) makes me feel nauseous. I'm glad you don't suffer from it, but some of us do, and giving us an adjustable FOV would really help with that.
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Beautifully put.
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Motion sickness through things like FoV is caused by your inner ear being miscalibrated on whether you are moving or not, and any uncanny valley sensations that confuse it in the process. A lot of it has to do with your primary and periphery vision, as one says you are moving and the other says you are sitting still. Thats part of why its not a "higher = gooder" situation, as it depends on how your view calibrates to everything you are seeing including outside the screen.
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Some people like to treat this game like a competitive game, so they would like any advantage given to one side to be looked into generally. It is undeniable that a higher FOV does give killers the advantage of seeing more on screen, which can remove some line of sight breaking opportunities in chase. However, I think we are looking at this from the wrong scope. While DBD can be competitive, it is more of a party game due to its asymmetrical and unbalanced nature. In this line of thinking, it is much better to think of FOV as an accessibility option (which even most competitive and party games consider as anyway) because certain people have certain tolerance to motion depending on the FOV which can cause motion sickness. Therefore, I think an FOV slider is then more of a quality of life accessibility change than a huge advantage to a certain side. Another example are the color blindness settings. Sure, certain settings can be used to give an advantage to a side in order to see more clearly, but this doesn't make it a competitive setting that should be removed as people need it as an accessibility option to play the game.
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During the last big discussion about this I was somewhat low-key defending not putting it in the game, becasue I thought it might be too much of an advantage and I didn't like the trend with asking for more and more perks going basekit.
But I then equipped the perk for an evernoon, and while it felt somewhat nice and gave a sort of need for speed feeling, I not once felt that I found a survivor that I would have otherwise missed. In essence, totally a perk that ain't worth it for me.
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Why do you think it is my first instinct? This is not a new question that never before was thought of, you know.
And yes, if it affects game balance, it has to be considered. Thats why, when i asked for a color blind mode, i explicitly proposed changes that would affect my colorblindness, but would not affect game balance, even though i would still have a disadvantage that way.
And thats why i ask the people with motion sickness how they would compensate the balance change they ask for, but it seems most people just dont care about the balance that doesnt affect them.
I dont wanted evidence that you get motion sickness at all, i do belive you in that. However, if someone claims the perk is only used because of that, thats something i want proof for.
Because i have seen posts in this forum from people who used it without being motion sick in the first place.
However, if you read the forums, you see a lot of changes people want to have that regard actual gameplay, its not only fov, its brightness, more sound, cornblindness, basicly every aspect that helps a survivor escape in a chase. A lot of players dont like the stealth aspect and just want it gone, without regards for the ones that like it.
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For survivors! For killer, it doesn't let you see over loops you're not supposed to, because it's first person!
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Time is everything for killers. Even those 3 seconds are valuable. We shouldn't have our time wasted by no-skill spins. New animations would have fixed this, but they were scrapped because of entitled survivors wanting to keep easy 360s, and immature "I need to go to the bathroom" jokes. This is what we're balancing around. Sad.
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"And thats why i ask the people with motion sickness how they would compensate the balance change they ask for, but it seems most people just dont care about the balance that doesnt affect them."
It's not that. The issue is the balance factor, while it exists, isn't a significant one.
It's like reducing the time it takes to kick gens by 0.25s. It makes the motion feel more fluid but ultimately doesn't give killer much of an advantage, and certainly isn't worth using up a perk slot on, as it's less impactful than a tier 1 Brutal Strength.
Similarly, providing a FoV slider that goes to say, 100 degrees maximum (let's concede the 2 additional degrees from Shadowborn), wouldn't significantly enhance general killer effectiveness, or hinder survivor Stealth plays. Because generally, if you can evade the killer with 87 degrees of view, you can evade them with 100 as well.
I am absolutely in favour for retaining the stealth aspect in this game, but 10 degrees of view for the killer isn't going to kill that.
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No compensation would really need to be given. Stealth is still very much affective against killers with shadowborn.
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Here's the thing 360 isn't supposed to mess up the player killer but the "aim dressing" of the Killers themselves. 360ing causes the Killers attack to swing in a direct where it thinks the survivor is at instead of where the killer is aiming.
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So playing efficiently as killer (aka tunneling) is considered a game flaw? Also playing efficiently in a PVP game is always gonna lead to the other side not having fun so calling that a "design flaw" is just not logical.
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Last year the Devs said MMR is fine the way it is because it’s like hockey, yet now we’re here waiting for the next update because they took their players advice on MMR being impacted by your teammates and taking breaks
Who cares what they said about stealth, 90% of their mechanics, perks, characters and maps show that they prioritize looping and interactions, not hide and seek. The players all do as well
FoV change is necessary and only gatekeepers will use stealth, Devs or recent Killer buffs to deny it
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So basically all the inconveniences and annoying gameplay for Survivors are design flaws that NEEDED to be addressed, but a Killer QoL buff that’s been asked about for years is ridiculous because 1 other patch in the Summer that gave QoL buffs that they also had to beg 5 years for
You contradicted yourself multiple times, Just say you only play one side and don’t want this because it doesn’t benefit you
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I assume all FoV altering Perks and addons will be retired/reworked? What will their new effects be?
How would you address people that still want a higher FoV than what you think the limit should be?
What is the best FoV limit to address most motion sickness issues?
How long are you willing to wait for every 1st person Killer model to be reworked to accommodate all levels of FoV?
What kind of LoS bush-like objects should be added to loops so survivors can retain some ambiguities on location while the Killer performs a vault or a break action?
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If they are advertising it as a hide and seek game it's to pull in more people. But the devs know the game is not a hide and seek game anymore, and they balance the game accordingly. It's hide and seek for the first 10 hours on survivor.
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Let's all be real, if they add an fov slider to the game, that's just a blight buff. Me and probably 1/2 of all blight's in this game run it. Tbh I don't even know what I would use in 4 perk builds anymore, seems kinda foreign.
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You can leverage the terror radius to walk away from a gen and use LoS blockers at the start of the match to cause the Killer to waste more time searching (Or if you’re near Deathhook). That is quite literally hide and seek.
Though in terms of resource allocation the game definitely falls more into tag once people start going for unhooks and there are fewer generators to be on.
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My point is just because isn't intended doesn't make it right and can be changed just like something that isnt intended can be added.
Stealth is a small part of the game sure but the majority of the game is based around chases.
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Increasing the fov won't kill stealth. You can still hide is not like they can see through wall and stuff.
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You are aware that i was talking about stealth in terms of juking the killer in a chase, not hidding behind the next building once you hear a hearthbeat, right? Most maps where already nerfed on the stealth play, because a lot of them lost many los-blockers, if you cant use dead fields in the pov of the killer anymore, it again becomes harder, because you sometime have to hide in the bush beside his feet because he was actually behind you when you turned the corner.
But maybe all of you can lead me to some gameplay videos where people juke the killer that way where i higher field of vision wouldn´t have benefit the killer.
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360s and fov techs can be used effectively against killers on any platform. 360s is not something that only works against console players. Even then, 360s are really easy to counter.
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Ive played on console for a while before building a computer. 360s aren't some overpowered move which will give survivors free distance. You don't have to be precise at all, as auto aiming handles the smaller things for you and you just have to aim in the general direction of the survivor. The only times I was ever spun was when I first started playing. After not even a day, I realized that I can turn up my sensitivity to track these survivors while they spin. 360s aren't an issue at all.
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- There's two perks that alter FoV. Shadowborn and Monitor and Abuse. The latter would be fine just removing the FoV change, I run it and I don't notice the FoV change all that much, it's pretty useless in only being active during a chase anyway. Shadowborn could take some inspiration from Dredge's Nightfall, perhaps it could make survivors slightly more illuminated with a white glow around them when they're within x meters or something.
- This is a slippery slope fallacy. Most first person games run at about 90-100 degrees FoV as standard. There's no reason to go beyond that, you'd end up looking through a fisheye lens.
- 90-100 degrees
- Not necessary, as Shadowborn already increases it to 102 degrees, all killer models must already be set up for 100 degrees.
- Not necessary, as stated several times already, the difference between 90 and 100 degrees in terms of what you can hide behind, doesn't change anything.
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4 is correct except for clown, you can see into his belly.
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Devs didn't change the movement because of survivors whining about not being able to 360. The swivel animations made dodging killer powers like huntress demo deathslinger actually impossible.
but i agree with just adding a fov slider. I would like a 4th perk slot on killer
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Because they are uninformed. It wouldn't change kill rates at all.
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i have literally never heard anyone say this.
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I care what they said about stealth.
I DO.
And I like that playstyle. And I don't want it punished even more because a small group of killers want an even bigger visual advantage.
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1500 hours and it is still hide and seek for me.
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So why should stealth be punished even more and chases be rewarded even more? That makes zero sense.
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It's a small minority in this game.
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There is plenty of Los blockers left and you should be able to run right at the killer and him completely lose you.
No one is claiming it wouldn't buff killer but it would also be a QoL for alot of people. And why is everyone acting like the slight buff is the end of the world?
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Its not even going to effect stealth that much and it's not punishing anything no one is going bad stealth increase fov. It's for the blatant in your face stuff.
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Very surprised they haven't made some QoL improvements to Killer FoV at this point. The 360 tech isn't cool and it's not even fun to do. It's just annoying, unrealistic, and completely ruins immersion.
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Thanks! I'm glad to know I'm not just being a dumbass, haha.
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While I do think there is a place for stealth in DBD, I think a lot of people tend to overestimate how much of a difference FOV makes for stealthy survivors. In fact, there's someone in this thread ( @Akumakaji ) who experimented running Shadowborn vs no Shadowborn, and found no noticeable difference against stealthy survivors.
Which does actually remind me of something - anyone who's against an FOV slider, but who's actually interested in the discussion instead of just being that guy, I encourage you to swap one of your perks for Shadowborn for a week. See if it makes a difference for you other than just feeling nice, and more than that, see if it makes up for the perk you had to replace to use Shadowborn. I'd be curious to see if anyone actually does this.
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All great questions!
- Monitor can have its FOV effects removed entirely, and tier 1/2/3 can simply be changed to reduce the Terror Radius by 6/7/8 metres instead. As for Shadowborn, I'd honestly be content with them killswitching the perk entirely until they can think of a new effect, but this is a good opportunity to brainstorm. I had the idea that it'd allow you to see through corn, bamboo and swamp grass within a small radius, something like 4/6/8 metres in a circle around you. It could just make the models invisible or partially transparent within that radius.
- It depends on what FOV they're after! I can think of a couple limits that would be reasonable. 120 would be the absolute max due to engine constraints iirc, 102 would be current Shadowborn, 105 would be a nice round number, same with 100. 110 is the max FOV Minecraft uses, and that was my first experience with first-person games in general, so I got used to anything between 100-110.
- I believe it would depend on the person. Some people are more comfortable between 90-100, I personally am comfortable between 100-110.
- Thankfully, we wouldn't have to wait at all! Shadowborn doesn't cause any major camera issues as far as I'm aware, at 102 degrees of FOV. But in the event that there would be issues, I'd be willing to wait a few months, as long as BHVR gave us confirmation that they're adding adjustable FOV.
- I don't think this is necessary, actually! Blinding people at pallets while they're in the break animation is already a common strategy, and flashlights are super easy to come by in the bloodweb. If BHVR chose to add a few bushes to each loop anyway, though, I wouldn't mind so much. Lord knows Trapper needs the buff!
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No idea, but I find it hilarious that people fight tooth and nail screaming that having a higher FOV is an advantage. Anyone that says it is either is ignorant of how FOV works or just flat out refuses to accept how it works.
Base FOV in the game is 87. Shadowborn bumps it up to 102. Monitor and Abuse at it's highest level boosts it up to 97. We are talking a 10-15 degree increase just so a few people in the game don't suffer from motion sickness while playing. I myself am one of those people. I'm unable to play Nurse (what a travesty I know) without shadowborn because blinking gives me headaches and nausea. For other killers I feel the same problems, but I generally point Nurse out because she is the one I personally suffer the most on.
A higher FOV means your brain sees more and has to process more information. Meaning that stationary targets are more likely to not to be correctly picked up by your brain. Even beyond that, while killers gain a supposed "advantage" from having an FOV very few people whenever this discussion is brought up will even begin to discuss that Shadowborn also comes with a downside.
Shadowborn also increases the angle at which flashlights can blind you as a killer, meaning Survivors are more likely to get a save from wider/weirder angles. The wiki even states this and gives a visual example of the max angle for both instances. Which you can find at the bottom of the page. - https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Shadowborn
If a killer REALLY wants every single advantage imaginable, I wager most of those players would likely not use a higher FOV simply because a good flashlight save can really make or break a match. But even beyond that, not giving other players an accessibility option just because Comp Wannabe #457891 needs his extra 15 degrees of FOV, is by far one of the weirdest things people in this community fight over by a long shot.
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I think killers see a different first-person model than survivors do, right? They could reduce the belly on Clown's first-person model a little, while keeping it the same for the model survivors see. (Source: Demo's hands are in a different position in first-person compared to what survivors see, and his shadow makes it very clear).
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Change your argument then. When I hear FoV slider I think of Quake.
Normalizing the camera to modern First Person FoV values is more succinct.
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You'd be surprised. There are a few people in this thread saying it. I think it is a minority view, but I've seen it pop up every time I've brought up adjustable FOV in the past, and I still don't understand why.
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Fellow Blight main, hi! I'd eat a Blight nerf or two in exchange for an FOV slider tbh. I'd just replace Shadowborn with some QoL or meme perk like Mad Grit or Deerstalker. Blight doesn't need good perks to do well.
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I think by FOV slider, most of us mean being able to adjust your FOV to any number between ~85 and ~105 or so. The only reason we're not just straight up asking for basekit Shadowborn is out of consideration for the people who are more comfy with lower FOVs, if that makes sense.
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Whatever the maximum changes to, should be the default. IMO even having the slider is a bit much, as it means from an artistic (and QA) standpoint you can't be certain all players will be viewing something the same way.
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While I do understand that view to some extent, I think FOV falls a lot more squarely into the quality of life/comfort/accessibility pool than gameplay balance. There are some elements of both, don't get me wrong, but I think there are more important aspects of DBD's balance than how many degrees of FOV the killer gets.
From an artistic standpoint, well, I can't really comment because I'm not an experienced artist. However, since DBD is a game, I think that while art is important, the most important thing to consider is gameplay. From a gameplay perspective, I think having an adjustable FOV should be implemented because it'd make the most people happy gameplay-wise. If someone feels comfortable with 90 FOV, they should be able to play at 90 FOV. If someone feels comfortable with 105 FOV, they should be able to play with 105 FOV. Little stuff like that goes a long way towards a positive gameplay experience, no?
If a full-on slider would be too much, perhaps a few set "levels" of FOV would be better? Something like 85, 90, 95, 100 and 105, as opposed to "any number between 85 and 105"?
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I don't see the need to support lower levels of FoV if you introduce higher levels of FoV, since, as far as I'm aware, there are no accessibility concerns for a low FoV. It seems that people get motion sickness from a smaller FoV as well.
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What do you mean by no accessibility concerns for a low FOV? Are you talking about people getting motion sickness from too much FOV? Because while that doesn't happen to me personally, I've heard a couple of people bring it up. That's pretty much the only reason I'm asking for a slider instead of just a flat FOV increase, so that people who prefer a lower FOV are happy, too.
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As a serious response to this, even if adjustable FOV gets added, stealth will be just fine. This isn't a situation in which a minority gets screwed over for another minority. This is a situation where everyone who plays killer at all benefits, and everyone who plays survivor barely notices any change.
This is one of the few times where survivors don't have to lose for killers to win. ^_^
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
you are not aware correctly, then. As already stated, FoV depends on multiple factors including viewing size and distance, it is actually generally preferable for it to be lower on consoles due to being more likely to be sitting further away, for example.
Since people are actually having discussion on the topic, might as well repost the game design explanation of why different FoVs matter, and their impact relative to multiplatform support:
You've been doing nothing but step on people who suffer from FoV related motion sickness and framing them as just killers wanting another advantage this whole topic. Please take your own criticism.
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