For people that want Nurse nerfed

So you want an entirely new killer, while they pump out a new killer every 3 months... I guess ask Santa or something because I don't think it is realistic to assume that will happen... I think her basekit is fine and you can loop/delay her so I don't see reason to do much.

"She should have a different power entirely."

Why ?

"Which means that she would require a perfect long single blink to get a hit. Translation : she would now have an incredibly rough game start."

That's exactly right; 1-blink's hit exist, of course, but that's not what the nurse should rely on if she's thinking about an "efficiency" game.

"That is not an opinion most people share. She can have the fastest two hit in the game other than Huntress - who I am proposing would also have the same cool down on with a hatchet that she has for an M1 attack. This would require the nurse to spend one or two cycles to catch up before they could attempt a 2 blink attack. This would make Nurse feel far less oppressive and create more room for counterplay."

I guess when you talk about this "speed" because the nurse can blink right after wiping her weapon?

I understand what you mean; but you have to remember that when she hits a survivor, the survivor gets a speed boost, in addition to the fact that the nurse puts her head down when she gets tired. This is quite enough to make the survivor move away from the nurse and/or to a more complex loop location.

Of course, this is situational; if the nurse hit him while he was in the middle of a deadzone, I agree that she could easily continue on her way. But it's out of her hands, and the maps have a lot of structures that allow the survivor, even if wounded, to waste the nurse's time while the other 3 survivors get ahead of the repair.

"Nurse and Blight have addons with 30-50% effects. Meanwhile we have killers like pig that have 3-9% effects. Nurse addons don't need to affect distance or cooldown. You can make hits with perfect play. Buffing these two parts of her kit is what makes her oppressive."

I'm not a Blight main, so I wouldn't know how to speak effectively about that.

However, regarding the nurse's addons, they are not really a problem.

I completely agree that they make the game more oppressive, of course, that's the point of an addon, to a certain extent.

However, let's look at the range addons: they allow the nurse, depending on the combo, to blink at 24/26/30m instead of 20.

This means that when the nurse starts a real chase, and is therefore very close to a survivor, that the survivor is facing a nurse who is NOT using a range addon (because during the chase, the nurse is relatively close to the survivor, especially if the survivor loops her in complex structures, with LOS breaking as a strategy rather than putting distance).

When I use Heavy Panting, I can blink at 24m.

However, when I am chasing a survivor, I am almost always within 24m. My Heavy Panting is therefore useless to me during the chase.

Where the range addons were actually a problem was when they accelerated the blink speed EVEN at short range, and I agree that was a big problem.

Also, if I use Kavanagh's Last Beathe for example, I can tp myself at 26m.

But it's double-edged, because the farther my blink starting point is from the survivor, the more time/opportunity it gives him to back/double back and/or prepare a trajectory change to an interesting loop spot for him.

Regarding the reload addons, when I use both at the same time, it actually allows me to chain blinks very quickly, which makes the game much more oppressive for the survivor, I agree!

But it doesn't prevent him from having at his disposal some means to counter me. On the other hand, it is sure, and I agree with you on this, that he will have to think and make decisions much faster, because I would have the capacity to react, on my side, also much faster.

"You forgot the option where she's really good. Rewarding first hit blinks would make her kit harder to use. The problem is that relying on two blinks to hit is honestly a skill issue. See examples of good nurses in action."

Even the best nurses almost always validate their attacks with the second blink.

Of course, in some cases, when they see that it was an absolutely perfect blink, and they are 100% sure that they can do it, they do it with the first blink.

But this is not a constant.

Especially against experienced survivors.

"The strongest killer in the game who has the shortest chases in the hands of a good player should not be getting easy gen regression. The strongest killer in the game should not be getting 1 hit downs - except via NOED or Make your Choice."

In fact, you see, I find that depriving the nurse of Starstruck and NOED would not be a problem, as these two perks can generate something too unbalancing when she uses them.

However, if you turn Nurse's M1 into an M2, it prevents her from using Jolt, Sloppy Butcher and Knockout, which are not overpowered skills. So there is no reason to do this.

So, to prevent the nurse from using Starstruck, but still allow her to use Jolt, Sloppy Butcher and K.O., simply remove her TR when she is carrying a survivor and (a great idea suggested by some players) replace it with a lullaby.

As for NOED, I don't know what your opinion is on that, but I think if that perk just disappeared from the game, it wouldn't be a bad thing in itself.

Anyway, it's nice; and I thank you for it; to be able to discuss a subject like this calmly, far from people who are content to judge/criticize by overabusing generalizations, hyperboles and baseless assumptions 🤗

By the way, folks, what do you think of the following proposition? 🤗

I had indicated, in another thread, the possibility of also thinking in terms of "rewards".

Let me explain.

We know that the game's podium consists of the Nurse, the Blight and the Spirit.

Here is a reward that the survivors could have when they face one of these 3 killers:

- if the killer makes 0 or 1 kill: no bonus

- if the killer makes 2 kills: the BP gained by the survivors are doubled

- if the killer makes 3 or 4 kills: the BP gained by the survivors are tripled

Variant :

- if the killer makes 3 kills: the BP (survivors) are tripled

- if the killer makes 4 kills: the BP (survivors) are quadrupled

PS : From the moment one (or more) survivor leaves the game before the end, the bonuses are canceled.

From the moment one (or more) survivor fails ALL his attempts to escape from the 1st hook's step (or that he fails any QTE on the second phase, except the last two), the bonuses are canceled.

It's true, especially since it would distort theses killers' MMR... possibly a lower bonus, which wouldn't make you want to farm with them...🤔

Jolt is a time saver. Nurse can down very quickly and there is no longer a cool down on Jolt. Nurse should get jolt only with a non blink. That means she could use it but it would he bard for her to sue over and over again. That would be fair when you consider pig can use jolt and not get much use because his chases are long and she can't move quickly.

Sloppy adds pressure by giving you a chance at one hit downs - something the nurse doesn't need easier access to.

"However, regarding the nurse's addons, they are not really a problem."

Since you go out of your way to explain how they don't help you in chase then it should not be a problem to remove blink distance and recharge addons. Or we could make them be like 2% longer.

Nurse should not be getting +distance blink addons when other killers get nonsense like this as a green addon.

-"Regarding the reload addons, when I use both at the same time, it actually allows me to chain blinks very quickly, which makes the game much more oppressive for the survivor, I agree!"

Nurse without addons is oppressive when played by a good player. Most of the killer cast is a complete joke to good players unless you bring best in slot addons and you are completely insane with that killer.

-"But it doesn't prevent him from having at his disposal some means to counter me."

I am not one of those people saying : Nurse has no counterplay (/wah). The problem is that the counterplay is very limited. If she blinks perfectly then you get hit. Giving people more room between sets of blinks would make chases longer.

I am one of those people that thinks there should be no S tier killers. There shouldn't be anything below a "B" tier killer either. For comparsion sake I would say doctor is in the "D" category. I don't think it would be probematic if the Doctor had an iri addon that made his shock give deep wounds (some conditions should apply, maybe at least madness 2).

And before people think Blight is fine: no he isn't. Some of his "best " addons should probably be -2 bounces instead of +2 bounces (alchemist ring and adrenaline vial).

Compound 33 should probably give blight a permanent movement speed penalty. On that note : Blight could easily be a 110% killer and be perfectly fine.

Also before we move on - there should be no nerfing of Blight or Nurse until SWF gets nerfed. As a minimum : no character, item , perk or offering can be repeated. When the team queues up everything except their outfit becomes locked. Add a UI element so people can see team members perks to coordinate better before a match.

"Even the best nurses almost always validate their attacks with the second blink."

So making her start the game with one blink would slow down her ability to snowball tremendously. She would have to blink to get close, blink to get close and then try for a single blink hit. This would make her even more difficult to use.

In what world does it make sense for Nurse to start with 2 blinks but Nemesis needs to be a "build up" killer?

"As for NOED, I don't know what your opinion is on that, but I think if that perk just disappeared from the game, it wouldn't be a bad thing in itself. "

NOED was dead to me the moment it got bound to a totem.

When you look at the design of maps we had in 2016 it would make sense from a fairness standpoint if we had the 2016 version of NOED in the game right now (Garden of Joy, Forsaken Boneyard, . In case you were not aware : +9% movement speed and it wasn't bound to a totem so it lasted forever and could not be removed.

Or we could just make NOED read : if the map is larger than 9500m² then NOED is no longer bound to a totem and lasts forever when triggered. There are only about 10 maps smaller than that size. Generally speaking if a map is larger than that then it is not a fair map.

NOED is there so bad killers can hook camp one person to death and then NOED someone at the end of the game and then hook camp them. If noobs need and use it to get 2k that's fine. It's a waste of a perk for killer in the same way that SpineChill was ruined in the 6.0 rework.

(sorry, my PC had a bug and split my answer)

"Sloppy adds pressure by giving you a chance at one hit downs - something the nurse doesn't need easier access to."

Sloppy butcher is by no means an overpowering perk; she is annoying at times, but does not have a very threatening character.

Against good, organized, methodical survivors who don't waste time during the game, its usefulness will be relative.

"Since you go out of your way to explain how they don't help you in chase then it should not be a problem to remove blink distance and recharge addons. Or we could make them be like 2% longer."

The fact that scope addons are useless during the chase does not mean that they have no use outside of it.

I was pointing out their usefulness during chase in reaction to people who seem to find them absolutely too powerful.

They are a great help in patrolling and/or map control, but not during the chase, unless, indeed, the survivor is trying to put some distance.

"I am not one of those people saying : Nurse has no counterplay (/wah). The problem is that the counterplay is very limited. If she blinks perfectly then you get hit. Giving people more room between sets of blinks would make chases longer.

I am one of those people that thinks there should be no S tier killers. There shouldn't be anything below a "B" tier killer either. For comparsion sake I would say doctor is in the "D" category. I don't think it would be probematic if the Doctor had an iri addon that made his shock give deep wounds (some conditions should apply, maybe at least madness 2).

And before people think Blight is fine: no he isn't. Some of his "best " addons should probably be -2 bounces instead of +2 bounces (alchemist ring and adrenaline vial).

Compound 33 should probably give blight a permanent movement speed penalty. On that note : Blight could easily be a 110% killer and be perfectly fine.

Also before we move on - there should be no nerfing of Blight or Nurse until SWF gets nerfed. As a minimum : no character, item , perk or offering can be repeated. When the team queues up everything except their outfit becomes locked. Add a UI element so people can see team members perks to coordinate better before a match."

The point is that the nurse's counterplay is much more tricky and complicated than the other killers, I agree.

The thing is, the nurse is a killer that will require the survivors to deploy more resources to achieve the same result as with another killer. Some may think that's fair, some may not, but that's just the reality of things.

For example, against a killer with no real threatening powers and who only does M1, even a team of 4 soloQ players, if they are at least competent and logical, will be able to get by without too much trouble.

Against a nurse, since we are talking about a killer who raises the level of difficulty, pressure and speed of the game, the opponent must adapt accordingly (organized team, vocal if needed, making the right decisions, at the right times, knowing the game, the maps, the perks, the strategies, etc.)

I take an example : Hens333's team was able to finish a game against Supaalf with 2K while they (Hens333 and his team) were limited in perks (tournament conditions); Supaalf used Call of brine, Overcharge, PGTW and Corrupt + double recharge.

I'm not saying that Hens333 could have always done 2K/2E, but the game clearly showed some effective counterplay on both sides.

(I don't take into account the games Supaalf won when he used Starstruck, this perk brings, in my opinion, too much imbalance when used by a nurse)

"So making her start the game with one blink would slow down her ability to snowball tremendously. She would have to blink to get close, blink to get close and then try for a single blink hit. This would make her even more difficult to use.

In what world does it make sense for Nurse to start with 2 blinks but Nemesis needs to be a "build up" killer?"

There is no problem with the nurse starting with 2 blinks.

On the other hand, there's no reason why Nemesis can't be reworked to increase the speed with which he gets his power, right, if some people think it makes sense.

In general, just because some killers don't have something that Nurse has, doesn't mean that it should be treated as a race to the bottom.

All the nerfs that I am suggesting would take nurse down from S tier to A- tier. That would be good for the game overall. Remove all the things that are head and shoulders above everything else and make it so that most things are near the same level of "goodness".

Along with Nurse being gutted we would treat Blight the same way. Maybe for example he needs to lose the ability to slam into pallets and break them (along with hug tech : which has already been confirmed that it will be removed).

And then we nerf SWF so that it doesn't have a massive advantage. That makes killer more fun and it makes playing as a solo feel like you are not "missing out" because the SWF can't run any duplicate perks or items.

-"However, we must not forget that the survivors are also able to : - communicate with each other"

As it stands now Nurse and Blight are the only fair killers to play against a 3 or 4 man SWF. Nerf SWF, Blight and Nurse and everything else gets better by proxy. SWF would be much weaker if they could not repeat any perks or items.

"There is no problem with the nurse starting with 2 blinks."

There is a huge problem. She isn't a build up killer and Nemesis is. If nurse can start with 2 blinks then Nemesis should just not even have a buildup mechanic. Make his whip be T3 length (with the higher movement speed) the entire game and make him always have the ability to instantly break pallets.

Nurse is the best killer in the game. There is no reason for her not to be a build up killer. Make Michael Myers start in "tier 2" with full move speed as the new "T1". Or he could just be 5% slower in T1 and then plays the rest of the game 5% faster when he gets out of T2. Either option would be fair.

"In general, just because some killers don't have something that Nurse has, doesn't mean that it should be treated as a race to the bottom."

The nerfs I propose to Nurse would not put her on the bottom. She would still be a solid "A tier" killer. She would be harder to use but still have very high reward when you play her well.

I am well aware of the Hens game you mentioned. And there's another good game by Hens where he plays no perk Nurse vs a 4 man team (named something like Nurse is OP). That game highlights three things :

1) crow map is too big for killers without movement speed : cut it down to 9500m² or less.

2) SWF is too strong and needs adjustment (no repeats as a start)

3) Nurse is too strong relative to all other killers.

There was a post from Mandy some time ago where she said the team had planned on removing it.

That was 6 months ago, so I would not count on it happening... I think there was another post a few months later where they stated they were looking into it, not Necessarily removing it.

As stated in the video shacks collision has nothing to do with hug tech, but with sliding along it because of bad collision. Also there was a stream of Scott jund I think a few years ago where McLean was in chat and tols him to look down to ignore collision, therefore it seemed somewhat intended to me.

Not even comp players knew when old spirit was phasing, so I don't think you can say good players where listening to her foodsteps...

Blight is one of the mechanically most challenging killers in the game, he is not easy to player properly.

No killer should have 105% ms...

Killers that are as hard as Blight or Billy to master should reflect the effort you have to put into them.

Also getting hits with bump logic is far more reliable then hug tech... And especially on weaker blight players trying techs will often not work constantly.

As for lilith omen he is a streamer and generally considered as one of the best blight players in the game... Probably is for Blight what Alf is for Nurse.

Sure dude because keeping perks usable on a killer that are not the strongest ones for that specific killer is definitely objectively the best choice.

Every killer that runs sloppy and jolt over call of brine and eruption creates a less annoying situation for the survivors and removing that would just make people run more of those better perks... Against jolt you can at least take the killer to an area where gens are not being worked on... Against eruption there is nothing you can do without comms to know when sB is about to go down...

"It's insanely easy for a Nurse to just slug everyone with the right exposed perks..."

The only exposed perks that are really dangerous with the nurse are NOED, Starstruck and Devour Hope.

MYC is only really dangerous if used in conjunction with Flood of rage.

I agree that removing NOED would not be a luxury.

I agree that preventing the nurse from using Starstruck, by replacing her TR, when she carries a survivor, with a lullaby.

That leaves Devour Hope.

The rest (Dragon's Grip, Haunted Ground, Hubris, Iron Maiden and Rancor) of the exposed perks have situational and relative effectiveness.

No shade, but i dont understand how people think nurse is ok. If the nurse is competent there is very litte you can do to stop them. Sure, if the nurse is bad you can juke her with LOS or just by running into her when she charges a blink, but if they know what they're doing there isnt much you can do. Not to mention rediculous addons and starstruck on her. Her power fundamentally breaks the game and needs a rework to be fair IMO.

You know, Nurse is supposed to be "Very Hard" but every single Nurse that I have been against has been professional blinkers. I've had 1-2 nurses that I've been able to escape from out of 512 hours of survivor in this game. Do new Nurses not exist anymore or is she not as "Very Hard" as it describes? She seems hard as hell for me to play for sure.

"Basically, a team in SWF is just a bunch of buddies playing in voice."

The last "group of baddies" I was playing against had one player on console so they specifically did not look like a 4 man group. They ran 4 copies of reassurance and two boons.

The abilty to repeat perks made pressuring hooks impossible and made inflicting injuries take longer than healing them. At the end of the game they said I did not pressure gens. That's literally impossible vs 4 efficient people with voice coms unless you are playing Blight or Nurse on specific maps (or the opposing team is very very bad or made a massive mistake).

-"Again, I don't see how the fact that the nurse has 2 blinks at the beginning of the game is a problem."

Technically it isn't a problem when you compare her with blight. The second you realize Trapper exists then there is a problem. At a quick count something like 18/30 killers have no way to move around the map quickly. That is only ok if we allow those killers the option to not play any map larger than 9000m² unless they check a box somewhere. Large maps are only fair for mobility killers and the rare instance where pig gets more use out of her traps with more searches because the map is HUGE.

Trapper is something of a binary killer in that his power is truly only effective if there is grass. No grass? Ok then I guess my traps only have 25% effectiveness. Imagine if Nurse played 50% of games on the Dcotor map. Imagine if we added the limitation : teleporting through solid material reduces how far you can blink (each 1m or less = 3 m of reduced blink distance). That would make nurse super fun to play right? No. And hence that's why I'm not suggesting we do that.

"there is no point in comparing the nurse to another killer who is radically different: they don't work the same way, don't have the same power, nor the same gamedesign."

Your argument is technically true but fails when we consider that the killers all have access to the same perks. Imagine for example if Blight and Nurse get the current version of NOED and every other killer got the 2016 release version. That might be fair to killers like doctor and trapper. It would mean you would see NOED on 28/30 killers approximately 100% of the time which would be unfair for survivors.

Many of the perks we have are limited because Nurse and Blight exist. Nurse should not be able to use Jolt, Make your Choice or Starstruck because she is a superior killer. Meanwhile killers like Doctor and Trapper need all the help they can get.

Compare for example Nurse and Blight using a power like Jolt. They move fast and end chases fast. Compare that to Doctor. He moves slow and takes much longer to get downs. Jolt probably had a cooldown so nobody would use it on nurse. The fix is to make it so she can only us Jolt on a regular swing (not power blink lunge).

If we charted the chase potenial of every killer Nurse might be 99% when used by a skilled player. For the sake of comparison Doctor might be somewhere in the 35-40% range as he has no one hit downs (nor can he safely use STBFL), no movement power and below average anti loop. Generally speaking that's not fair for anyone who wants to play doctor. Either the Doctor needs to play in a lighweight division (no swf, no items , blah blah blah) or Nurse needs to be nerfed so that the differnce between them is more like 10-15% chase potential.

I guess they are talking about the top 5% mmr killrates, that should exclude newer players. I think people overestimate how many god nurses there are that absolutely annhilate the enemy no matter what.. Because most Nurses are just not that good and that explains why her killrate even at top mmr is how it is... I mean we all know that matchmaking will put even Alf with some random guys so even the average players seem to not always loose against a top 5% mmr nurse.

From a higher distance one blinking people becomes basically impossible since the travel time gives survivors enough time to run out of your lunge range when you blink the full 20 m, even if you blink perfectly where they were... That's why the 2nd blink is often needed to get the hit, especially when you blinked a longer distance.

Then you will create the whole issue we already talked about that short range blinks are basically not possible to be properly dodged... When Nurse blinks at you from less than like 6-8 m or so she will basically hit you guaranteed, that's why keeping her at distance is so important. If you make it so she can basically only short range blink you will maybe make her weaker but even more annoying since then there is nothing you can do about dodging blinks anymore. If she only ever uses her blinks at pallets and windows that would be terrible. There are enough killers in this game that just wait for you to be locked in animation to make Nurse also one of them...

I think we have a different understanding of balance here...

You cannot dodge her by running away, maybe if she looses track of you otherwise not...

You mean like literally every other killer?

I meant the close range blink by that, what do you mean by every other killer?

But also no Jolt, Sloppy and other stuff... how about just no exposed perks on her blinks? Serves the same purpose in that regard... I'd rather have a nurse run jolt and sloppy than call of brine eruption...