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Devs: You wanna know how to truly shake up the META? Here it is
Actually penalize tunneling and camping on your end and stop with the whole “we want players to penalize it.” Before y’all freak, hear me out: Wanting players to penalize tunneling and camping hasn’t worked and hard tunneling and camping is still the META for killers because by their own admission “It’s the easiest and most efficient way to get a 4K.”
You guys say you don’t want people just clinging to the same perks over and over because that’s what makes the game stale right? That’s pretty much what’s happening at low and mid-tier MMR and certainly solo Q you know why? Because survivors are clinging to their chosen same old build, instead of actually having fun and experimenting with different perks and builds, because it’s the only way to keep from being tunneled and camped right out of the game in 2 minutes.
I mostly run at least the same 2-3 perks and then try to play around with a 4th if I feel I can but honestly all the matches I play are the same because the same perks are being run and every killer claims and/or believes they have to tunnel and camp just to get a win or have fun. So every match is tunnel, camp, slug, rinse repeats
So try this: Actually penalize tunneling and camping on your end. I’m not saying to ban those gameplay styles. I’m saying penalize it whether it be with loss of bloodpoints, or loss of a “merciless killer,” pips, whatever it is that the killers personally play for. Force them to try different play styles. Maybe have it be that if the killer doesn’t go a certain distance from hook after a hook, the hook timer doesn’t start. If they are in chase with the same survivor that just got unhooked within 5 -7 seconds, they get no chase BP? I don’t know, just an idea. I’m sure you have a team that can think up stuff too.
NOW to be fair to killers, this is where you come in with the survivor nerfs. This is where you hard nerf META survivor perks so that the killers actually have a shot at being successful without going against OP survivor perks. As one example, as much as I loved the self-heal aspect of COH, I think that nerf was fair. If killers are gonna be forced to lose their easiest and most efficient tactic, they have to be compensated properly for it. This means everyone has to try something different. This means everyone can play around with perks, play around with different play styles and every match isn’t tunnel, camp at 5 gens, slug, rinse repeat therefore survivors knock out gens back to back because tunnel camp slug because gen rushing etc. This is all just a horrible circle jerk of one side does this because the other side does this because the other side does this because the other side… you get the point. That’s why this game is stale and boring. I also agree with the idea of giving survivors other objectives besides gens.
For me, the most fun games I’ve had are with killer chases, the mind games, cat and mouse with trying to get that last gen popped and each side trying to mind game the other. Add to that the aspect of actually being afraid of the killer, that adds to the tension of the match.
My point is tho, as long as tunneling and camping are the chosen tactics for the majority of killers and they’re given free reign to do it, no amount of perk nerfs or buffs you try to do is going change anything. Now there are of course those killers who will always tunnel or camp no matter what. Because it’s the easiest thing to do and all they care about is winning with the least amount of challenge possible. However, I believe that a lot of killer players and survivor players out there actually want a game that’s a challenge but also fun and has a lot of variety, and I think this would be the best way to do it. Just my opinion.
Comments
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There is no point in penalizing it, emblem system is already there but no one cares.
Just remove the ######### hooks and make everything like a PH cage or let the survivors respawn in fixed time, there is no penalty that can fix tunneling or camping as long as it can kill like usual.
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"Actually penalize tunneling and camping"
How do you plan to prevent survivors tunneling generators?
The problem with your post is that you want to eradicate killer tunneling and have no idea that survivor tunneling exists or is even a problem.
I'll let you in on a secret. When playing Killer I tunnel because the survivors tunnel my gens.
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Remove SWF completely and maybe killers won’t be so toxic. When you get steamrolled 5 games in a row and spend the majority of the time stunned or blinded, yeah the next random survivor is gonna get 110% of my built up toxicity. I’ll basement Bubba your whole team and drink your tears. I honestly don’t care if survivors are enjoying the game anymore. I’m not allowed to enjoy it so why should I allow you to?
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Yeah 'hard nerfs" to survivors like what? Taking dead hard from 3 uses to 2? Bringing CoH back to 100%? Was that same style of tweaking used for pop/ruin/thana/CI/eruption/call of brine/overcharge/tinkerer?
In fact can you name me a single killer perk that's been "nerfed" in that same style? Or do they all get completely dumpstered and drop to bottom tier perks?
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Chill. You will not be seeing CoH ever again. Speed bonus will not even refund time investment in traveling to boon, booning totem and finding it in a first place. The perk is nuked into oblivion. It's going to be about as used as blood rush...
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As fulltonon said, Camping already penalises your emblem score, thus making it harder to earn Iridescent Shards and Rift Fragments. Meanwhile, Merciless only matters for adept achievements which killers have already endured a harder time with for years up until recently, especially compared to survivors only ever needing to escape.
And there’s no real way to penalise Tunneling outside of having perks that discourage it and not everyone’s going to use those.
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I love how this whole thing is worded in a tone that suggests camping and tunneling is some sort of criminal offense that is going unpunished.
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Good thing the generator that got tunneled out of the match in 2 mins won't burn out and quit playing the game. They really are a calm and understanding bunch, those generators.
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Shouldn't we prevent and penalize when survivors all survivors do 1 gen, is it tunneling a gen?
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Basekit Deadlock when?
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The survivor crowd wants to say : nobody cares when the killer loses a generator because it's not a person. The problem is that as a killer you had no chance to defend that objective. That really is your objective - you can never lose the game if the gates never get powered.
I don't tunnel survivors so they quit playing DBD. I do it to make the game into a 3v1 where I have a chance of winning.
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Camping hasn't been effective for nearly 2 years my dude. Just say you're bad and save everyone time.
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Camping is necessary as killer. Watch Otzdarva and you will hear things like :
" I need to tunnel this Meg if I want to win."
"I will camp this Dwight to force a hook state"
Overall Otz wants to play nice- but he also wants to win. So when you see him use a tactic in a game where he needs to win then he camps/slugs and tunnels.
That is the truth.
Camping someone to force a hook state is very necessary in the current gen rush climate.
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So every match then
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The difference is "tunneling" a gen 2 mins into the match A: doesn't ruin the experience of one player and B: doesn't make the match exponential easier for one side, to the point it's almost a foregone conclusion if the 2 sides are of equal skill level.
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Sorry but that's not true if they tunnel gens that break my 3 gen.
Many of the maps in DBD are 3 gen or gtfo. If you lose the 3 gen and someone isn't dead (and you dont have more pressure) - the game is over.
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I watch one ex-comp player on Twitch and now he mostly play solo q survivor. Once he played against another streamer and I wanted to watch the match from his side. It was very funny to hear him complain about SWFing, because the survs are not stupid. He had STBFL and during the match Obsession was tanking hits. Do you know why she did it? Because the killer was tunneling and my streamer gave his medkit to Obsession and showed with emotion where she should run. Of course, for the killer, this is a “damned SWF”, and not just a lobby with good survivors. The same thing happened in next match, my streamer got caught against this killer twice in a row and it didn’t bother him at all, he continued to complain about another match against SWF. It seems to me that those who ask to remove SWFs will complain about SWF even after the removal, because not the SWF is the reason for their loses.
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You actually want to promote survivors to 'tunnel' gens. When I force the survivors off of the same gen with yet another free hit, (since they dropped the closest pallet in 3 directions I'm not approaching from) they want to commit and finish that gen. They are falling prey to sunk-cost fallacy, and I can capitalize on their mistake. This also makes directed gen regression even more valuable, as Pop can decimate the gen and make them want to finish it in spite of how bad of an idea that is. This is promoting positive risky and potentially rewarding gameplay for both sides. It is risky for me to not protect the other gens, it is risky for survivors to take free damage for a gen they can come back to much later.
If that wasn't the 'gen tunneling' being referred to, then I'll give an example of another type of 'gen tunneling'. When survivors group up to finish a specific gen quickly, I get far more value displacing them as when I chase someone off the gen, I get 2/3/4 people no longer progressing gens for the cost of 1 chase. Also if I balance my build accordingly I can have Discordance to tell me when they are co-oping gens, or Nowhere to Hide to get a free hit on the person who hid while the other person ran off.
In every circumstance of 'gen tunneling', it benefits the killer if they have skill. I love it when people gen-tunnel when I play Nemmy, because it will give my Zombies extra pressure and value due to my use of Discordance. I love it when I get to pop the same gen 5+ times, because the survivors are too stubborn to give up on a lost cause. I love it when people group up on gens so I get multiple quick STBFL hits and/or avoid the Obsession if need be. They might get the best of me occasionally, but the majority of the time, I can come out on top because I can adjust and take advantage of their missteps.
It's also important to think of gens and gates as the killer's health bar. You can try to heal in the corner, or kill your enemies before they hurt you enough. A solid regression here and there is nice, but unreliable. I need to rely on my ability to down the Survivor before they down my gens. The only time I can't truly think I have a chance is on Borgo, Cowshed, and Garden of Pain. That doesn't mean I haven't won on those maps, just that they are too safe in comparison to their peers. Springfield is a mixed bag, because a school basement is tantamount to a free-win, but the rest of the map is torture. Similar with new Haddonfield, the windows are too juicy, but the main building 3-gen is disgusting. Bad maps should have their problems fixed, not rely on perks to band-aid them.
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Honestly it IS an offense against statistics, all those tactics are what makes kill rates so high and why all the games are much stressful.
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This implies all the stress created in a match of Dead By Daylight is created by Killers.
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Technically yes, if killers somehow never tried for win, the game would be much more favor in killers.
That's like saying "if survivors never do gens game will be lot easier for them" though lol
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You think all Killer stress is self-inflicted and Survivors have nothing to do with it? Uhhhhh.....
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Yes, it is solely the Killer's fault for getting upset or stressed. I mean, it's not like Survivors will intentionally go out of their way to annoy the Killer or rub it in their face when they misplay or lose.
Nope, definitely not.
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The only times he "camps" is when there's someone actively going for rescue. Tunneling is necessary but not as impossible to counter as newbies always scream.
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That's simply not true. When he is really trying hard sometimes he will "need" to secure a second stage on a survivor.
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Survivors already get punished for all doing the same gen.
It's called everyone being pressured at the same time.
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I mean, every stress is literally made by brain of humans? so yeah not exactly incorrect I guess.
Don't make a joke like that, no killers (maybe except the knight) has capability to chase more than a survivor, realistically speaking they won't be "pressured" or anything.
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Show me one time he camped someone and not in the case he knows someone is right there and he's pursuing them. I'll wait.
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There is no "gen rush climate". There's "survivors doing the objective. As a killer main I hate when people think like you and make all of us seem like complete crybabies
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Survivors will abuse any penalty they can inflict on the killer. Like how they've taken to abusing base kit BT to tank hits for a rescuer. and in that case it's often easier to just tunnel the idiot in deep wound.
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About a month or two ago he was playing on Lerrys and lost 3 gens before getting a hit.
I dont remember who he was playing; it might have been Doctor.
He camped the first person he hooked to death in the basement. As for finding the video - I dont think he posted that game on YT.
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Then tunneling doesn't exist and everything is fine with DBD.
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It's not like camping should be banned or anything.
Face camping from 5-gens is mostly gone. It's so long since I have seen it.
-Camping at end of the game to secure kill? Why not... Not much else to do
When I see survivors focusing gen instead of going for save, I will go there and wait to get 1 for 1 or extra hook stage. It's basically punishing their choice. Which I think is correct thing to do...
Camping from 5 gens was boring and noone likes it, which is understandable. But it's not like camping doesn't have a place in dbd imo.
Same for slugging and tunneling. They are great tools which should be used in correct situation. It's become an issue when you get it to next level tho (tunnel / camp from 5 gens, or slugging only builds).
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While that's true you don't see me moaning about that as they're counterable.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
Its definitely not that horrible and easy as you're making it out to be. If a camper gets more than that 1 guy your team sucks. Period
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What a crazy coincidence. I'm an avid Otz watcher and saw no such situation.
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Exactly you got it. I can tell you actually play killer. I think your example of pressuring a rescue attempt is what the other gentlemen saw Otz do when he made that allegation too
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Hell yeah
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I play against very good players often. It's pretty common for me to chase someone and down them and then have the opportunity to hook them where two people were working a generator (I would say this happens in about 1 in 5-6 games right now).
When that generator is 80-90% completed the survivors feel the need to finish it. At the start of the game when this happens it usually means I get at least +1 kill. When I can stand so close to the hook that nobody can really touch the generator or the survivor it means the trade will be very messy. Often I can force the second hook state so that the unhooked survivor can be tunneled and killed immediately. At the very least someone else will go on the hook and the generator continues to degrade.
This isn't "nice" but it is efficient play. Just like it's efficient for two survivors with Prove to blast an important generator early on. DBD has turned into an "arms race" of sorts where the main consideration is how much time is wasted/saved.
I really don't want to play this way but survivors who are hyper efficient have taught me that I should - so I do. When you can get someone to stage two very early in the match then you tunnel them and it's a 3v1 with 4 generators left. That's a really hard game to win.
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What I have been asking for is for the game to be slowed down. Slow down survivor gen rushing (maybe those perks need a 70% nerf since cob/overcharge are getting that). Slow down the game so the killer can go for lots of chases instead of needing to tunnel the first person out every time.
Give Killer Deadlock Base kit. Give them a base kit reward for hooking each unique survivor once before anyone dies. Make that reward "better" than tunneling out one player. We will see longer games with 4 people alive for longer - with harder to complete generators.
Give the killer a reward better than tunneling and they won't. If necessary make it so you get one reward or the other; so if you start by anti tunneling and then tunnel the reward for not tunneling goes away.
The problem is that many survivors seem to want quick easy games where they don't really feel much pressure and have easy escapes. How fun is that to play against as killer?
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He didnt put the game on YT so if you weren't tuned in on that exact day and missed 20 minutes of the stream then you would not have seen it.
Otz was accused of tunneling/supporting tunneling by his chat and did something of a "penance" where he limited himself to not tunneling for a recent video. Are you going to tell me that didn't happen too?
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I am killer main and what you want is broken. Like a lot.
For this you would need to rebalance everything. Good luck with that.
For any basekit changes like that, you would have to first nerf the hell out of Blight, Nurse, Spirit, Wesker, Artist, Oni, Huntress and probably some others. Basically all good killers right now, because they would become super broken.
Give Killer Deadlock Base kit.
Deadlock is currently one of best slowdown perks in the game and you want it basekit? That's a no from me. It would actually screw lot of killer builds. Any gen kicking build don't want to see Deadlock.
If you chose corrupt interventation, so chase starts faster (make it go away when chase starts instead of dying). I could kinda get behind it, but Deadlock is too much.
Give them a base kit reward for hooking each unique survivor once before anyone dies.
I am all for this. Something like Grim Embrace effect would work. I would increase hook stage timer to deal with camping and kinda balance it.
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Just because you call survivors doing gens tunneling doesn't mean it's the same thing. It isn't.
Obviously camping and tunneling nerfs can only come with buffs to killers as well, ideally a rebalance of a lot of maps, or some early game slowdown. Survivors doing gens is still not the same as killers focusing one survivor out of the game from a design perspective.
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-"I am all for this. Something like Grim Embrace effect would work."
Here's the paradox : Anything less than 9% penalty to all survivor actions for each first hook means it is better to just tunnel one player out.
You can't give that much of a buff because survivors would whine. Since they won't give that much buff I will always tunnel one player out asap.
"Deadlock is currently one of best slowdown perks in the game and you want it basekit?"
If we nerfed every exhaustion perk except smash hit by 75% it would very quickly make smash hit the best exhaustion perk. That's not really saying much.
Deadlock base kit would be roughly equal to survivors getting free base kit BT. The survivors get +1 perk and the killer got nothing of equal value in trade. Deadlock would give killers gen tunnel protection - which is what survivors got for free.
-"For this you would need to rebalance everything. Good luck with that."
Generally speaking there are about 10 "ok" killers" and 2 "working": killers. The list should be more like 2 great killers and 20 "good" killers.
Or we could just have tiers of gameplay. If you are playing without perks , not in a SWF then you can see Pig. That's an oversimplification but you get the idea.
There is no world where player 1 picks Pig and player 2 picks Nurse and that choice is equal.
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-"Just because you call survivors doing gens tunneling doesn't mean it's the same thing. It isn't."
How is it different? Prove to me it is not. The killer targets one player and eliminates it. The survivors pick one generator and eliminate it.
-" Survivors doing gens is still not the same as killers focusing one survivor out of the game from a design perspective."
Where you are wrong is that removing a critical generator that allows a killer to have a 3 gen seutp on most maps is roughtly equivalent to the killer having removed one player. Most killers are weak in chase and do not have travel powers. The ones that have both break the game. Many of the maps we have gotten recently should probably only be maps Nurse/Blight and play (such as Garden of Joy).
Imagine for example any map that has one generator in the middle surrounded by many others. What if that central generator was visually different and took twice as long to repair? Survivors would hate it but that would be better balanced (note that I am not suggesting this as a fix but it illustrates the point).
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If we nerfed every exhaustion perk except smash hit by 75% it would very quickly make smash hit the best exhaustion perk. That's not really saying much.
Deadlock was never bad perk. It simply doesn't work well with kick gen meta, which was dominant play style last few months.
You still have some valid kick gen perks and deadlock would screw it. Deadlock base kit is bad idea for both sides.
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Oh no of course let's listen to your example of a game he might have tunneled where you think he was doctor. And it might have been because the same fans that's accused him of being racist he opted for another challenge which is **the norm of his content** and yet not only is there no video it doesn't correlate with the 100s of other videos available on his twitch or YT. No that's checks out for sure
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First of all it's been an "arms race" since the game came out. Neither side gains anything by not being in a rush.
Secondly that argument is silly. The good teams are not the ones being camped out because they forgot there's always at least 2 other gens. But of course on this forum you'll find people swearing up and down they're top level all day long with nothing to back up anecdotal evidence. That is to say, you won't find high level vids of this occurring anywhere else.
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There is no question in my mind that one survivor died in the basement from the first hook on Lerrys. I am not 100% certain he played doctor
Otz very commonly says : I have to tunnel out player blah blah to win.
When he is on a streak he does not play nice.
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There will be no good kick perks after this patch. Overcharge is getting a 70% nerf and CoB is getting a 75% nerf. Nobody will ever use either of those perks again.
Nobody is using Pop so what kick perk do you think people are using?
The only perk people are using is a detection perk not one that focuses on gen regression.
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