So....COB can only give you less than 4% regressions?

They didn’t change Pain Res to current progress. It’s going to be 25% of total up to 4 times.

Sorry I was wrong... thanks for pointing that out

They didn't have to nerf those perks that hard though, they should be 150%.

It was done to nerf 3 gen skulls and knights. So this perk should now be reworked perhaps more focused on info like it have now plus you see aura of all survivors on gens when someone touch a COB kicked gen. The regression is now useless so why not.

Going against a three gen champ, those gen already take forever

They did it because they're nerfing popular perks to create more variety. If everyone and their mum didn't run the same perks every single game then they wouldn't touch them.

I think it is more accurate to say people don't like the game being held hostage in spirit, even if not by the strict letter.

Pre 6.1.0 Pop/Ruin were the most fair forms of regression, and I don't like how they were changed only for popularity's sake.

At first I was against the Pain Res changes, but then I realized it is a buff before 7 hooks. If you haven't won the game by 7 hooks, an extra pain res isn't gunna help you out enough to prevent that anyways. I understand the problem of hook trade camping, and this doesn't fully address that, but at least it comes close.

CoB and OC are unearned regression, and unearned regression should be proportionately weaker than earned regression. This fits that without nerfing their unique features (Intel for CoB, Bonus Skillcheck for OC).

The reason killers run regression is they don't have confidence in chase enough to win with 450-630 gen seconds (sometimes people split on final gens, and 630 accounts for all gens 99'd). Regression adds to that minimum and maximum. Pallets are a consumable resource, in the same respect as gen seconds are. The difference is you can 'rebuild' a gen before it pops, but you can't rebuild a pallet.

The issue with modern map design, is they are based around pallets, not windows (other than a main building god window). Windows allow for skill expression on both sides, and pallets flatten that for the most part. The problem is many killers insta-kick pallets, rather than use their power or bloodlust filler pallets. That is my trick to winning Borgo/Garden of Pain mostly. Is it fun, no, is it effective, yes. When people realize they need to BL the boring filler pallets, or the maps utilize fair windows instead, then we can have better maps, and more confident killers that don't rely on 4 slowdown.

Sadly this bad map pallet abuse is the survivor's equivalent of weaponizing fun against their opponent just as camping is killer's. It isn't exactly the same (unless they sent you to that map), because the survivor's choice is drop pallet or die, and Killer's is camp/pressure gens/chase rescuer. It also isn't truly equal, as camping can be done on any map (outside of 2 story maps with Reassurance in play), but both are still problems nonetheless.

Honestly I am fine with nerfing exhaustion perks by ~70% as long as we use the same philosophy - don't touch the unique portion. That means all exhaustion perks have a T3 CD of ~120s instead of 40s. You get value once per hook state, or if the killer completely ignores you for 2 minutes of walking/not moving. I don't think unearned regression is the equivalent aspect as exhaustion, (this is dual-fortress gameplay being addressed, with CoH being adjusted on survivor side) but I don't know what would be a good counterpart adjustment.

-"Almost as if, after all the myriad nerfs to loops, pallets, and windows, you should be getting people down faster so you can generate this pressure... and if you can't... then you're the one getting outplayed"

Run me through which maps got nerfed - oh that's right it never happened.

There is one fair map in the whole game : Wrecker's Yard. This is the map where good survivors can win if they play smart or the killer can win if they play better.

Garden of Joy is a complete Joke with windows that make the old Ironworks of Misery window look weak.

Shelter woods back in 2016 had a 75% or higher kill rate because it was the only map in the game with no infinite loops (after the shack lost its 2nd window). Since 2016 that map got a lot more survivor sided and now with the release of the Skull Merchant it's just dumb.

I do think the perks needed to be tuned back due to them being the main culprit of the 3 gen meta. But, I agree that it's kind of pathetic. I wish they would make more regression perks like Pop. They should be stronger on gens with more progress rather than taking a gen at 20% back down to zero in a matter of seconds.

I think removing the information part of CoB could've been a good change too. It's dumb that you basically got full control on a gen just for kicking it once. But all we can do is hope things change.

How does that relate to what I said? Exhaustion perks wouldn't have a secondary effect like Call of Brine does.

That's a fair opinion, albeit one I disagree with, but everyone seems to just skip acknowledging that Call of Brine is in fact an information perk and doesn't just give a boost to regression. If you think that part isn't worth bringing or isn't enough for the perk to not need to be buffed, you do actually have to say that- and more than just say it, you need to make a case for it, too.

Ok fair enough

I don't think that COB and Overcharge are unearned... The Killer needs to spend time kicking Gens... Losing sight of Survivors

Gen times are for both sides... but mostly Killer

But to each their own

I mean yea... but then again the Survivors don't lose anything by interacting with Call Of Brine and Overcharge... other then give themselves away

But I do understand why you say what you say

-"The OC and CoB survivor nerf counterpart is CoH and the basekit item of medkits in their entirety"

Killers get perks to make gens take longer and survivors get perks to make chases get longer. Exhaustion perks are to killer what gen regression perks are to survivor. Both sides have a tool to make the other side's objective take longer but the killer tool is nerfed by 70% this patch. So why not nerf the survivor tool by the same amount.

-"I understand a 70% nerf to the non-unique aspect is the exhaustion timer."

Since it's literally my idea I'm saying the stun or movement component of those perks is what would be nerfed. The timers would stay the same however.

You would never use Sprint burst with only 30% of the current effect and that's my point. You can dance around the issue indefinitely.

CoB, sure. But considering Overcharge starts as a deficit, requiring you to defend it until the regression accelerates, I don't think it counts as being "unearned."

-"OC and CoB are not having their unique parts decimated so it is clearly a false equivalence."

And that's where you're wrong. Nobody will use CoB or OC after the patch because you take them to regress generators and after a 70-75% nerf they wont do that.

Killers do not kick generators with CoB to get info; they kick generators with CoB+OC because those perks absolutely destroy a generator's progress after about 30-40 seconds.

You use Sprint Burst to create distance where none exists and if it only had 30% of it's current effect then nobody would use it for exactly the same reason.

Regardless you recognize Killers are abusing a problem in design, (kick to DESTROY progress, not hinder or slow, but DESTROY without even the need to progress the game to a close with a hook or down) and the proposed nerf is aimed at tackling that problem part.

No one *yet* has been crazy enough to claim exhaustion perks in and of themselves are a problem. Instead, the complaints have mostly been relegated to DH, because how bad it feels to be hit by it, knowing you've been outplayed. That's why I said tongue in cheek, that Killer should have basekit movespeed difference tanked by ~70% also at 106% (I wanted it to still be faster than T1 Myers though). So you could hopefully bring a mirror up to your own claims to see how absurd they are in saying exhaustion is the same realm.

No one is arguing that an X% nerf wouldn't deal with the issue. Heck, DS got dropped to effectively 2s from 4s, (counting in the 1s shoulder drop) with a 50% nerf, and is worthless now too. The issue is DS is a solution to a problem (tunneling), but the unearned regression is the problem with CoB/OC. DS/Ruin/Pop/Self-Care's 'problem' was popularity, not strictly strength. That is why those were bad nerfs. Each of them getting a half-nerf would have been fine if popularity was the main driver. (DS no endgame, Pop to current OR 20%, Ruin death removal OR 100%, and Self-Care removing the Med-Kit efficiency.)

-"Call of Brine started out as a hybrid perk, offering both regression and information."

You keep pushing this narrative but nobody was using it for the information; they used it for regression.

I said what if we made exhaustion perks a dual purpose information perk and nerfed the movement or stun ability by 70% - Would anyone use them?

Nobody would use them even though they do something else but have a 70% nerfed ability and that's my point. You want to push the idea that a perk nerfed by 70-75% is still fine. Ok sure thing then let's nerf all the exhaustion perks.

In before : Exhasution perks are not the same as gen regression perks. The problem is that exhaustion perks delay damage and prolong chases. Longer chases means more time on generators/healing/rescuing/opening doors.

What do Exhaustion perks do? They give you extra time to delay so that someone not being focused in a chase has even more time to do whatever they are doing. Overall they create a time advantage for your team. Note: Kick perks that regress generators do the same thing for the killer.

-"Regardless you recognize Killers are abusing a problem in design,"

First of all I disagree with the word abuse as this is what the developers intended the game to be like after the 6.1 change. These perks allow you to have decent games with killers who are not "amazing" in chase like Nurse/Blight.

The thing that happened is that survivors said, "I don't like this" and as usual it got nerfed to placate them.

-"No one *yet* has been crazy enough to claim exhaustion perks in and of themselves are a problem."

From a game design perspective there is a problem if both sides have tools to do opposing things and then you take the tools away from one side but not the other.

Gen rushing perks didn't get 70% nerfs but gen regression perks did. Why did they not get equal treatment along with toolboxes?

Back in the beginning of DBD we didn't have gen rush perks because the devs were afraid we would have a situation where someone could put XYZ together and finish a generator in 40 seconds that was supposed to take 90 seconds (Looking at you Hyperfocus).

The bottom line here is that the devs caved to survivor pressure and delivered small survivor nerfs with massive killer nerfs.

The irony is that this should be the part of the plan where killers get buffed (as that was the next step after solo players got put closer to SWF play).

It's not a narrative, it's literally just a fact. Call of Brine has always been a hybrid perk, the fact that a majority of people only cared about one half doesn't change that.

You're not even giving appropriate information to Exhaustion perks in this ridiculous hypothetical, either. Since it would be information relevant to the time you use the perk - kicking a generator for CoB, meaning the information is when that generator is worked on again - then the equivalent would be seeing the Killer's aura for a handful of seconds once Exhausted. I don't know if anyone would run that, but it's a weird hypothetical considering the perk doesn't currently do that. That isn't how any of the Exhaustion perks are designed, but it is - and has been this whole time - the way CoB is designed.

You keep bringing up that it's a 70% nerf (to one half, not to the whole perk, but still), but you don't seem to be acknowledging that it was a justified 70% nerf? 3-gen games have been a problem, there's no denying that, and something needed to be done about CoB and Overcharge. In the case of CoB, I think it now being pushed towards the other effect it's always had and people mostly ignored is one of the healthiest changes it could've gotten.

A large number? I can think of a few, Haddonfield and Azarov's are pretty heavily encouraged to 3-gen in their current state, but it's definitely not a large majority. Three or four at most. Even so, that doesn't really mean anything, you can hold a 3-gen on those maps without CoB/Overcharge and that combo of perks allows you to hold a 3-gen infinitely on any map, so... surely you're not saying CoB/Overcharge were fine and shouldn't be changed because of a handful of maps having kind of poor generator spreads?

It would be a problem if old killers needed to tunnel someone out ASAP. Good thing that's not the case, eh?

Okay, we're on firmer ground comparing regression perks to progression perks, so this is where we can start having a conversation. Now, nobody's going to deny (at least, nobody with any sense) that certain elements of generator progression are overtuned; some red herrings are thrown up that really aren't a problem, like Prove Thyself, but if we're in the realm of talking about toolboxes and Brand New Parts, yes, those things do need to be nerfed. IF this patch had taken a broad sweeping look at slowdown perks, not nerfing toolboxes as well at bare minimum would be a massive oversight, to put it mildly.

However, what people keep ignoring is that this patch isn't touching all slowdown. It's fixing CoB/Overcharge, that's not a net loss for killers that aren't forcing infinite 3-gens, and it's touching Pain Resonance. All the other slowdown that exists in the game - Corrupt, Deadlock, Plaything/Pentimento, Eruption, Jolt, Gift of Pain, etcetera - they're all still there. That doesn't mean toolboxes aren't a problem, obviously, but it does make the one-to-one equivalence of "if slowdown is being nerfed, progression should be nerfed too" not apply, because slowdown isn't being nerfed. Three perks are being nerfed, and two of them obviously need it.

Finally, I was never making any comment or reference to what CoB's new pickrate will be. I have, this whole time, literally just been acknowledging the basic fact that it has always had two effects.