bHVR should Solve Camping and Tunneling by adding Counterplay Gameplay Elements to the Game
In this thread its all about the concept of adding new gameplay to stale undesired gameplay outcomes.
So its a tale as old as this game, that Camping and Tunneling is less desirable to interact with. But I think we can all agree that if we look at the game as it is, its sorta the most logically standoff we can end up having with the game as it is now. If a Killer sets it in his mind they want a specific Survivors dead, they can Camp/ Tunnel /Repeat, Survivors are on the bad side of that, there isn't much gameplay around it. I think this is bad.
So with this thread I want to hear your creativity to think of ways we can level to playing field between Survivors and Killers in a Camping situation with adding Gameplay elements around Camping and Tunneling.
Now a Gameplay Element is a thing that a player does something with, Example: flashlights it takes skill to use and you can blind the Killer and save your friend. Ofc not without risk. A thing that isn't a gameplay Element is like PyramidHead's cages, which can relocate should PH get too close to them, This isn't a Gameplay element (its an automatic system) because nothing is played in doing it, he just walks in and it happens, no counter play from Survivors.
For the sake of this thread, We will assume bHVR can create a system of detection that can check if a Killer is Face Camping and check if a Killer is tunneling a recently unhooked Survivor. Now we can design new Gameplay Elements that can give proper, not passive counter play to Face Camping and Tunneling.
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Here are MY Ideas on how bHVR could implement gameplay to counter Camping/Tunneling, but someone more keen could probably do better.
THE KILLER TACKLE
So the system is in effect, the Bubba is detected as FaceCamping this should unlock a Survivor mode called "desperate action" while in this mode I think the other Survivors should be able to tackle the Killer to stun them and cause a Power cooldown of X seconds. Ofc. the Killer might hit you, which would be bad, but an attack can be baited out and then tackle the Killer. This should allow for plenty of counter play.
These desperate actions are for the other Survivors, not the Target.
Now desperate actions with one other Survivor alone trying to save their teammate would not be very effective, likely you would leave wounded. That would be a regular trade, like normal. But two other Survivors could do it, allowing for two stuns. Two stuns would allow the unhooked to run the farthest, three max for a face camping situation if all three survivors join in. So the more Survivors who join, the more painful it will be for the Killer to FaceCamp.
KILLER BLOCKING
So the system is in effect, the Wraith is detected as being a Tunneler. What this means is that we can put another "desperate action" so why not something that makes it easier to body block the Killer, spread your arms and block the Killers path so the targeted survivor can escape easier. This would work by pressing a button when looping near a Killer that is chasing a tunneled and the survivors will face the killer and extend their arms making their hit box to the Killer bigger.
If this can only be done near the Killer, It wont look like you are asserting your dominance in front of the Killer.
Cool Cosmetic Jeff.
I also think Survivors should have the ability to throw items at the Killer as a "desperate action" if they are tunneling. But this post is getting long already, if you think its worth hearing let me know.
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Common Critiques of this approach I have gotten:
Why add such an elaborate System to fix FaceCamping, lol just do an automatic solution that forces it. Dont waste bHVR's time with development, Just force the Killer away/ our or ban from FaceCamping.
- This game is a game and that means we are supposed to play the scenario. This also means we should be allowed counter play, My Philosophy here is that this should be the way of dealing with the issue.
- I respect the Killer's part of this game, if they chose to try FaceCamping I think we as players should respect their choice. They have agency and they have made their mind up that is commendable, It is fine if they want to dig the heels in and hold the game, but that does not mean Survivors should have no counterplay or that all the cards should be in the Killer's Hand. This is why I think bHVR should do this.
- I believe in the setting, the Slasher Horror setting this game is trying to emulate. The classic movie situation of a victim trying to escape the Killer, blood, sweat and tears. I believe Survivors can get killed by not outsmarting the Killer and the Killer can kill them based on agreed upon rules of the game, but things should happen naturally in this Slasher Theme, not by fake hand holding systems.
An Automatic Solution to FaceCamping and Tunneling is not a play, it does not respect the Killer's choice/agency or the Survivor's mistakes with the rules and its very fake and hand-holding, I don't feel like it feels like it is in theme with what I believe the Game is trying to emulate. This is why my Suggestion is the way it is.
This is so OP for Survivors, you are making them so Strong.
This may be true, but if so bHVR can buff Killers again. I believe this game would be better served by more gameplay, more options for its players in the long run than not giving Survivors adequate counter gameplay.
Thanks for reading this.
Comments
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Body-blocking is already a thing.
I can hit you and you lose collision.
If you try to block again I can down you.
Now there's a slug and someone I'm still tunneling.
NGL I've won games simply because people were so butthurt about me tunneling their teammate that they stopped doing gens and just.... let me hit them.
The largest issue I see with tunneling right now is that because of facecamping, it's really easy to prevent Survivors from ever hiding from you or diverting your attention with scratch marks.
Start with addressing face-camping.
Here's my take on facecamping:
Unfortunately with the above I've realize that I haven't thought about how to handle hooks near the "Tunnels".
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When people tunnel my wife out early I just let them sacrifice me immediately, because I don't want to spend 15-20 minutes playing without her.
I'm not condoning doing this, it's just what I personally have to do because the game is designed poorly when you want to play with someone else. There's your feedback. Do what you will with it.
If they implemented something that punishes survivors for suiciding on hook, we would find another game to play.
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Because when one of us doesn't get singled out and face camped out from the start, the game is fun.
I think you misunderstand.
In it's current state, this game rewards early tunneling heavily. The killer removes 25% of the survivor's pressure by doing so. There's no other perk/addon/offering combination that can give this kind of value. I understand why they do it, I mostly play killer so I understand completely.
The game needs work.
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Yes, but body blocking I think needs to be easier to do. If Tunneling is part of this game then counterplay to tunneling need to be established aswell.
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How is it rewarded more than before?
1 less survivor was always good.
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I like those ideas. Just one little think to keep in mind. There's no camping or tunneling at end game. So do not enable such tactics after 5th gen pops. Otherwise it sounds very good :)
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So
1) offset by slowdown perks
2) doesn't matter for tunneling that much, even before you wasn't able to take multiple hits, except first version of CoH, but that was broken
3) always could
4) sure, it should stay 5
5) didn't matter for tunneling, works mostly same for tunneling anyway
6) if you want this, then ignore DS nerf, off the record was buffed around same time
7) doesn't matter for tunneling
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Yeah, desperate actions could be turned off after 5gens are done.
But Im open to the existence of Perks that allow Desperate Actions during the endgame. It would be a commendable feature.
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Sure. But don't make it too OP. Keep in mind coordinated SWF also exists. Let it not be autowin (only a good help). Then it makes sense ("wasted" perkslot during gen-progress time is considerable thing after all)
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I think the counterplay should be hiding/diversion. Not "Establishing Dominance" or literally tackling the Killer, that's unthematic.
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I reject that, many slasher movies have instances of figthing back somewhat, this is why I want bHVR to gives Survivors lil more to fight back with in the special camping/ tunneling situations which we agree are the most unfun. This can be dbd's little time to fight back let survivors fight back in those special situations.
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That's fine when everyone is rooting for the Survivor, and we're all the audience, and when the Jock then gets Killed relatively immediately.
That doesn't work when you're trying to incorporate that into a game where a Player is on the Killers end and the Jock can't be killed immediately for the shock value.
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Well we had powerful perks for both sides.
But all of them got nerfed....
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The Killer can still retaliate, I specifically mention how in the post.
... Ofc. the Killer might hit you, which would be bad, but an attack can be baited out and then tackle the Killer. This should allow for plenty of counter play. ...
All this does it make it much more difficult to Camp.
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It's kind of funny how they implement something to deal with killer behavior, then it's pretty much a must have, because of killer behavior, then it gets nerfed because it was to good at stopping ######### killer behavior lmao
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If this game was For Honor, I'd agree, baiting out an attack to counterattack, or swarming an enemy to hit them from multiple directions.
But this game is not For Honor.
It's an asymmetrical Horror Slasher where the Survivors are looking to escape the Trial from the Killer, and the Killer is looking to Sacrifice the Survivors to The Entity/Kill them*.
Camping is a problem, but the solution is not to turn it into a fighting game with baits, blocks, and parries at the Hook.
(*Though I still think after sating The Entity's Hunger enough, and maintaining certain anti-tunnel criteria, Killers should be able to Kill Survivors by their own hands without the use of a Mori).
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Solve camping by making hook timer not progress if killer is within x radius without corresponding survivor within x radius. It's really not freaking hard.
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I heard you the first time, if you want to elaborate then please do. But if you just wanna state something you can do that too.
Im not a fan of this idea. Because depending on the reason the Killer is camping, then they will stay like that forever.
I want gameplay around camping so we don't end up in a boring stalemate.
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Camping is a problem, but the solution is not to turn it into a fighting game with baits, blocks, and parries at the Hook.
Why not? Elaborate.
Seems this is the best place in the game to make that gameplay better.
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How would they misuse it?
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Camping: Have two survivors nearby the hook. Leaving is dumb. Chasing is dumb. The only smart play is to camp. This gives a free stun and power cooldown for forcing the killer to camp.
If the Survivor manages to hit the Killer, yes IF they manage to do that.
Tunneling: Person is unhooked, uses the protection to force the killer to tunnel them by bodyblocking so the killer literally can’t go for someone else. They get rewarded for free for an uncounterable situation for most killers. Add in OtR and that makes waiting out the Endurance unviable.
The unhooked person would not get desperate actions for tunneling, cause they would be the person getting tunneled.
its a thing for OTHER survivors, THE NON TARGET to get. Was this not clear in my original post?
maybe not, ill give it a look to make sure those points are more clear.
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They don’t deserve to attempt that stun at all.
We may disagree on this
Well they will take a look at the idea and will write down the best ideas and sit on them and maybe use the best ones, if you like the bodyblocking on chances are bHVR will too.
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Tunneling, camping, and slugging can be nerfed by:
•Giving survivors basekit Guardian or basekit Off The Record.
•Giving survivors 10 seconds of basekit Kindred after a survivor is hooked.
•Buffing the perk Unbreakable to have 3 uses per trial.
•Adding strong new killer perks to the game that incentivize killers to go for different survivors.
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Simply put, thematic reasons. Lest you get Michael Myers getting tackled by a jacked up S.T.A.R.S. operative. (I personally find this hilarious, but in principle I am against it.)
Address camping by making it hard for the Killer to be in two places at once, such as the suggestion I gave. Not by letting Survivors throw hands with the Killer being able to "1v1 them" just in one place.
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The problem with adding hard counters to tunneling and camping is there's not a hard counter to gens for the killer side.
If killers could reset completed gens to help buy additional time to go around to spread out hooks, then these changes could be fine. But I doubt you'll see many survivors want a game where the killer can keep resetting completed gens.
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No you're not in a stalemate...it just forces killers to leave the hook or be acrively engaged in defending it..., if a survivor and a killer are within range of hooked the timer starts going, if killer chases survivor out timer keeps going.
Just for a picture to kind of give you an idea if hooked survivor is still in killer terror radius without free survivor being in terror radius of killer than the hook won't progress, like 3 big circles if you can picture that
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Yes, do you have some magic where you can just pinpoint where they are in a 360degree area? Or maybe you moved far enough away from the hook? Also the survivor can move out, forcing them off gen or w.e and making the killer, you know...play the game?
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No, it actually means the killer can't camp, unless survivors are making a play on the hook. This solves everything as it obviously should be allowed the killer has the opportunity to defend the hook. If anything it encourages interaction and not this stupid caught you tunnel face camp current dumb issue I see people constantly upset about and for good reason. I'm just gonna force this guy out of the game real quick and make it exceedingly difficult for my opponent is dumb and ruining the game. People have been complaining about this crap tactic forever and then killers ######### about gen rush like there's something else the survivors are supposed to do lol.
It's weird, I want the killer to interact with survivors...to play the game but campers want to just camp and stare at someone on a hook? I don't get it. It's not enjoyable to play catch the little bar in the spot while numbnuts stands and stares at his victim. Or maybe it's lazy killers just want to m1 people trying to save so it's this vicious dog pile hook fest until everyone is dead. It's not fun for the 4 other people in the game and I don't really understand how it's fun for the killer....it's like a idle mobile game, ooo I got lots of numbers at the end, neat!
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The killer doesn't know anything definitively unless they're standing next to the hook and the timer is going down. And the survivors can move out, forcing the killer to play instead of having a survivor stand there and wonder....I wonder if they'll leave the hook so I can save and not turn this into a vicious hook cycle...which js what I'm guessing killers that camp want. To not actually have to chase anyone.
It's weird I want the killer to play the game and campers want to turn it into catch the little bar while I drool and stare at this meat sack on a hook. Like an idle mobile game. It's atrocious and speaks to the laziness of killer players having to actually try on the already overpowered killers.
Like you're really against trying to get the killer to interact more with the survivors? Lol.
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Damn, guess he said it, must be so! You enjoy your currently abusive play style that much? Works for me, campers just get the go next treatment. Games ruined within 30 seconds. This will continue to snowball the survivor player base into further and further unhappiness to the point people will just stop playing. Then you can camp your empty hook, that should be fun!
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Lol works for me, guess you're right. Not like half the posts since I've joined have been about killers being overpowered and their behavior ruining games or anything. The game in it's current form will slowly die. Sad.
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The game will die just like the last time people were complaining that killers were too strong. And the previous time before that. And the previous time before that one.
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I don't feel like I have been forced to Camp in a long time, Tunneling? Yeah, when the Survivors unhook right next to me as I'm walking away. I'm like "what are they thinking???" I really dislike asking this, but are you really feeling like Camping is the only things you can do?
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I am all for reducing camping and tunneling, but there needs to be some bounds to it.
Specifically considering camping:
Say I leave the hook, but I see everyone is hiding/doing gens until the very last second. So I return to the hook for last 5-10s before next stage. I think this gave survivors ample opportunity to save the survivor safely and it's actually survivor team that should be punished for their play. Hook should not stop just because survivors ignored their teammate.
But for a killer that facecamps survivor (especially on the hill/in the basement) - yes. This is boring and should be discouraged (not deleted tho - it should just not be a good play most of the time).
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Well, I think camping and tunneling are natural logical ideas that happens in Killer players, and lets make sure to acknowledge that those playstyles are unfun for survivors. However that gameplay as it is currently is in line with the theme of the game and it should be mostly understood as a thing the Killer could do. So I dont think bHVR can shake that logical thinking out of their players.
However there is very little counter-gameplay for survivors, there are "do the gens" which is boring, cause they killer isn't coming and the hooked survivor is supposed to take it on the chin? well they wont, they will self sacrifice on hook. So this is why I suggest countergameplay to keep the natural thinking, but make it harder and give survivors tools (not just perks, bhvr jeez )to deal with such a situation such as a face camper and tunneler.
Would that not be better than a fake reduction in killer playstyles and a smack over the fingers for killers who dare to think more?
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