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Exhaustion perks are always going to be a problem

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Comments

  • HoodedWildKard
    HoodedWildKard Member Posts: 2,013
    edited April 2023

    This is the thing. I'm not saying to nerf killer and buff survivor in general. The mmr split is pretty wide in this game. High mmr the sweaty survivor swfs rule and killer is always playing catch up. But at low mmr, for killers it is such a cakewalk.

    I'd love to see a way to help low mmr survs without it benefitting high mmr swfs. I have suggested detailed ways of doing that before, VC, rolling handicaps, an actually decent tutorial etc. But all we've seen has been the player action icons, handy but it doesn't really fix how garbage solo q is.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,645

    Perks should never be "annihilated" to the point of literally being useless. If the perk is that problematic, then it should be reworked entirely, not just nerfed and then left to rot for years until they decide to change every perk again. Otherwise we are left, as usual, with the same 12 perks on both sides being any good, which just creates an endless cycle of metas, some of which are more annoying than others.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,645

    Exhaustion perks aren't really a problem, the only one at this point was dead hard. Because they all have a significant downside/heavy activation requirement associated with them. The only exception to this was dead hard, which i still don't think they nerfed the right way, but at least it was given a downside.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,913

    Unfortunately, Skull Merchant still gets use out of Overbrine.

  • JudithMorel
    JudithMorel Member Posts: 562

    dh is now super limited and is significantly weaker, if you are struggling with dead hard now its 100% a skill issue.

  • DBDVulture
    DBDVulture Member Posts: 2,437

    "The mmr split is pretty wide in this game. High mmr the sweaty survivor swfs rule and killer is always playing catch up. But at low mmr, for killers it is such a cakewalk."


    If you mean : persons playing the very strong killers win easily at mid MMR then sure. If you mean the "meh" killers win easily in Mid MMR then I'm going to say no.

    This is one of the things I would love to blast Otz with; he says well when survivors have the very best vs Blight and Nurse it's equal. Well that's fine but the difference between Blight and Nurse is extreme. What would make playing Trapper be on the same playing field? Maybe it would approach equality if every survivor had to bring No Mither.


    "I'd love to see a way to help low mmr survs without it benefitting high mmr swfs"

    That would be perfectly fine.

    I would also love to see real changes to the game so that the broken/weak killers can play "fine" against 4 man SWF bully squads. This of course is no easy task because in order for weak killers to be viable they need:

    1. Movement speed as either a power or base speed increase. Without movement speed you suffer from the "shift w" problem. Would Trapper be scary with 120% speed Base? The answer is probably no but it would make him "suck less"
    2. Strong Anti Loop. Every killer needs this as part of their kit.
    3. 4v1 potential like Pig, Pinhead, and Nemesis enjoy OR the same kind of 4v1 that Blight and Nurse have because they end chases so fast that there is almost no downtime between chases.
    4. Chase Lethality is necessary for every killer in the game. The moment the survivors do not care about being chased is the clear notification that the killer(s) in question need massive buffs.


    You either need to do everything in this list OR you need to do a complete map redesign scheme. Imagine for a moment that we keep all the maps we have and make 9000m² versions for all killers who are NOT Nurse/Blight. That's right we make a new smaller version of all the maps with fewer vaults/pallets with everything closer together. Then we prevent Nure/Blight from playing on these maps and maybe we make the maps we have even bigger b/c they will only be played by the "broken" killers. All the generators on the new maps are closer so that we have multiple possible locations per map for 3 gens.

    God pallet count per each map will be 1 or fewer. /gasp.

  • DBDVulture
    DBDVulture Member Posts: 2,437

    Explain to me why it's a bad idea for Survivors and killers to play by the same rules for Hex Totems and Boons?


    If the thought is : nobody would use Boons if they were kicked once and removed then you would be right. That's exactly the reason almost nobody playing a serious game uses lots of Hexes.


    Boons/Hexes are the perfect example of where Survivors get a very "feel good" version and Killers get nearly useless perks that are best used mostly in meme or gimmick builds.

  • EmmaFrostyEyes
    EmmaFrostyEyes Member Posts: 685

    Um idk why you brought up boons and hexs.

    “exhaustion would be fine if there was a counter perk that penalized a team of survivors while they were exhausted. As an example : the killer has a perk maybe called despair that reveals your aura to the killer if you are exhausted. Don't want to be seen? Don't run an exhaustion perk.”

    this is what caught my attention. And again one of the worst ideas i have ever heard. At that point just delete all survivor perks since if they nerf them exhaustion youll be complaining about the next meta after.

    also boon totems suck. There only one good boon totem and its only in swf. They are worthless in solo que. There are plenty of good hex totems. I see devour alot in my games. Noed got nerfed yet its still very good as it will give you 1 free down even if you got 0 hooks all game.

  • EmmaFrostyEyes
    EmmaFrostyEyes Member Posts: 685

    i had more fun playing vs a blight today with no way to heal than a skull merchant yesterday. Shes so boring

  • DBDVulture
    DBDVulture Member Posts: 2,437

    Well my phone has been ringing off the hook and I might have answered the wrong thread when I got interupted - my bad.


    What does the killer have to earn time back to counter an exhaustion perk? The perks that could were things like Overcharge, Eruption and CoB but all three have been obliterated.


    Gen regression was nuked to the point where I would never consider using any of those perks anymore (the same way I would never use Sabotage after remembering the 2016 version).


    The problem with this game is that some of the perks are S+ tier and most the perks are C tier. More often than not killers get B-C tier perks and Survivors overall have historically had much stronger perks.

  • EmmaFrostyEyes
    EmmaFrostyEyes Member Posts: 685

    Historically both sides have had busted perks. After 6.1 eruption was the best perk in the game easily.

    “What does the killer have to earn time back to counter an exhaustion perk?”

    what?

    “Gen regression was nuked to the point where I would never consider using any of those perks anymore”

    eruption is still good its just not op. Pain res is still a good perk i had a blight use it and i had a gen 98 percent and 2 pain res hooks made it take forever. He won that game too

    also if you had to stack gen regression (using overbrine eruption) to win games and your complaining that its gone then you just were never good to begin with

    the game is in its most balanced state its whoever sweats the most that wins at this point

  • DBDVulture
    DBDVulture Member Posts: 2,437

    -"also if you had to stack gen regression (using overbrine eruption) to win games and your complaining that its gone then you just were never good to begin with"

    I was using 1 regression perk with most of my killers.


    When I played Trapper I was using a combination like Overcharge+PR because that killer is trash compared to the good killers.


    Your reply is not really very fair when you play against people who are in a 4 man SWF using BNPs and Hyperfocus, etc.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,913
  • EmmaFrostyEyes
    EmmaFrostyEyes Member Posts: 685

    ”Your reply is not really very fair when you play against people who are in a 4 man SWF using BNPs and Hyperfocus, etc.”

    you know whenever people bring this up i already know they are just saying stuff. You might see thing once in like 100 games and thats a maybe. Stream the game and lets see if this is true.

    also you say that my response isnt fair but most of your comments are just the same killer oppressed and survivors op stuff. Doesnt that get tiring?

  • HoodedWildKard
    HoodedWildKard Member Posts: 2,013

    If you mean the mechanically "meh" killers I really don't agree, not based on what I've seen playing as and against those killers. Trapper for example, could certainly do with a buff: my personal suggestion would be a stacking debuff every time a surv disables a trap, that causes traps to become more and more transparent to that surv and after 2 or 3 traps they vecome invisible and survivor can't interact with them, all stacks removed once surv steps in a trap. But I digress.

    I play trapper a fair bit and I still perform pretty well with him. I use a pretty specific build to slowdown at start, corrupt intervention, and for info on where to put traps. Zanshin. Then i turn one largeish area of the map, usually covering 4-5 gens in a patrol route, into a mine field of trapped pallets, vaults and if applicable, doorways. Then I herd survs in chase towards these danger zones. With this build I've beaten pretty decent teams.

    The only meh killers who perform badly at mid mmr are the meh players. As surv in pubby games I've have come up against:pigs, slingers, doctors, freddys, skull merchants etc who have stomped us. Because we have no communication and killer has played their killer well. I've led individual killers on crazy long chases and seen no gens pop. The average skill level of survivors (including at mid mmr) is pretty poor, and that needs addressing.

    Buffs to mechanically weaker killers awould be nice, trapper, pig, freddy, twins in particular maybe sadako but I'm not convinced on that one. But sweeping killer buffs will just make it worse. Weak killers need specific buffs to their base kit not their base stats. And they certainly can still perform well if used effectively.

  • WaveyTrey
    WaveyTrey Member Posts: 654
    edited April 2023

    Killers simply need better perks that causes Exhaustion that are actually worth it.

    Make Blood Echo a Scourge hook. Then change it to “After hooking a survivor on a Scourge hook all other survivors are inflicted with exhaustion for 45 seconds. If the other survivors are injured they also suffer from hemorrhage for 45 seconds.”.

    Buff Septic Touch. “Whenever a survivor performs a healing action, or a cooperative action within your terror radius, sporadically hear The Entity as long as the actions persist. During that time the survivors suffer from blindness and exhaustion. The effect persists for up to 10 seconds after stopping the actions by any means”.

    Buff Fear Monger. “Whenever a survivor works on a gen they suffer from blindness and exhaustion. The effects persist for 5 seconds. If all generators are completed survivors that lose a health state suffer from blindness and exhaustion for 5 seconds”.

    Survivors can get around all that by avoiding downs by Scourge hooks, healing outside the TR, and using Vigil. Fear Monger for EGC allows killers to potentially deal with DH when it is abused most.

  • KMainEZ
    KMainEZ Member Posts: 129

    Idk. Deadhard requires actual work to use now, if it extends chase im not mad, feels deserved Compared to before. PR is still fine imo, i love pop also. CoH isnt stronger than before. It helps team healing, which is fine? Id rather know 2 people are off gens than one. I dont get this post lol.

  • Yippiekiyah
    Yippiekiyah Member Posts: 494

    Yes exhaustion is absolutely busted. If an exhaustion perk buys you 20 seconds in chase just once it is already one of best perks in game. All survivors have to do is not run for a full 40 seconds to get their free extend chase by 20 seconds perk back.

    There's not a meta build that wouldn't contain one then all the survivor mains on this thread defending their precious op perks then are the first to complain that killers are tunneling and camping which killers are doing cause they can't win chases.

  • ironblade
    ironblade Member Posts: 270
    edited April 2023

    If you played your game, you would understand the problem.

  • Cynwale
    Cynwale Member Posts: 205

    Even in low MMR, I encountered Sprint Burst and Dead Hard all the time, and they kept having 3rd chances every single chases.

    After the patch, it was heaven, I could go back on my 4k, until they started bringing Adrenaline and Sprint Burst every single game.

    At this point, I've embraced the Tunnel.

  • ironblade
    ironblade Member Posts: 270
    edited April 2023

    Nobody is making you the bad guy here. I want to understand why someone that played Dead by Daylight since Alpha don't understand that exhaustion perks are a huge problem in this game. Dead Hard has been finally nerfed after so many god damn years of agony but survivors have already adapted to it and now they use it again especially in high MMR. Adrenaline is now the new meta and since gen rushing has been at full speed, and regression perks has been nerfed (except for Pain Resonance but whoopdiedoo it only has 4 uses for every unique survivor and by that time, 3 gens has already been completed + you have to go to that specific hook to activate it), you can see all their injured to healthy state, or from dying state to injured state.

  • Peanits
    Peanits Dev Posts: 7,555

    I'm going to drop this discussion here because I feel like we're going in circles, but again, I haven't claimed they are not a problem a single time, and I am not disagreeing with you when you say that they are. Yet in spite of that, you have implied that I don't understand because I don't play the game and that if I did, I'm bad at it. That is quite literally giving me an opposing stance when I haven't taken any stance at all.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266

    I thought killer mains and survivors mains come for argument, but I feel you've gone abit too far.

    There are many wrong things I can point out on your part, but I feel its pointless to tell after reading. Good luck to you being on the forum.

  • Ἥφαιστος
    Ἥφαιστος Member Posts: 100

    That's not what he said. I don't think English is his first language but what I understand from him is that ironblade can't understand you.

    What are the things he said are wrong?

  • Ἥφαιστος
    Ἥφαιστος Member Posts: 100

    What Peanits is saying he doesn't take stances. He is neutral and want to have an open mind discussion with you. He's not saying he's not disagreeing with you but neither is he agreeing with you.

    Your explanation though is on point about the exhaustion perks and I don't disagree with what you said but there is more to it than you know.

  • lifeisstrange
    lifeisstrange Member Posts: 300

    Another one of these topics again?

  • Rizzo
    Rizzo Member, Administrator, Mod Posts: 17,938

    Ok, I'm closing this here.

    I want to remind everyone to please keep it civil when discussing a topic, regardless of whom you are discussing with.

This discussion has been closed.