Counter-Slugging Mechanic - Self-Pickup at Hook
The Dying state gives a feeling of helplessness. Appropriate, given the Killer "got you".
Only being able to be picked up by another Survivor is also appropriate, given that one of the Survivor themes is that through cooperation, a stronger foe can be overcome.
Slugging (Keeping a Survivor in the Dying state) itself isn't always an issue either. Such as instances where the Killer slugs a Survivor in order to chase another nearby Survivor that could be trying to setup a save.
While that fits thematically... This is a game, and the experience of all players should be considered.
Where it becomes an issue is when a Survivor is left as a slug for an extended amount of time, be it through The Killer properly zoning them (leveraging meta-knowledge that the slugged Survivor cannot pick themselves up), Aura suppression of some form (EG: Blindness), Survivors simply being clueless, The Killer quite literally forgetting where they left the Survivor, or the chase with the other Survivor taking far too long. While this does work in the Killers favor, the experience is unengaging.
So how do you go about addressing excessive slugging?
BHVR suggested that base-Unbreakable could be an option.
In my opinion, that would conflict with existing systems regarding recovery speed. While it is simple, it promotes more sit and hold a button gameplay. Nor does it introduce any new gameplay considerations from a tactical perspective (that weren't there before). While this does introduce synergy with crawl-speed Perks by allowing the Survivor to crawl elsewhere and pick themselves up, that nerfs temporary slugging. It also fails to take into consideration sabo-squads or unfortunate hook spawns creating dead-zones where the Killer is unable to reach a Hook at all before a Survivor wiggles off, requiring a Bleedout.
My suggestion would be the following:
Counter-Slugging
Survivors can get themselves up to their feet over 32s with a "Persist" Action at an unoccupied Hook.
This Action takes 32s, the Survivor can be interrupted, and if interrupted, or stopping the Action, the Survivor becomes Incapacitated for 8s. (This prevents the Survivor from attempting "Persist" spam if under hook while the Killer is nearby).
An unoccupied Hook is a Hook that is not Destroyed or that has a Survivor Hooked on it.
While attempting to "Persist", the Hook will rattle and creek occasionally, similar to the purposes of Gen Repair sounds.
With the above, the Survivor has more options available to them if the Killer leaves them to chase someone else. If they're left slugged near a Hook, they will likely get back up fairly quickly. They're not able to get up without being near an undamaged Hook, so this should restrict its usefulness against sabo-squads. The Killer will have a rough idea of where a Survivor is if they leave them slugged, or they won't if Survivors cooperate and pick up the slugged Survivor elsewhere. The lengthy self-pickup time itself also means that unless the Survivor gets slugged right under Hook, it's a commitment to try and go for a Self-pickup over Recovery. While it is more hold a button gameplay... it's an ever-present choice between options, instead of just Recover. It's also a distinct system from Recovery and would be independent of any Recovery Perks/Balances.
Comments
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This is just basekit unbreakable. You get that, right? Surely you anticipated this response.
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I am still confused to why the game needs a counter to excessive slugging. The counter to slugging is being good at the chase. Long chases results in slow downs with no potencial to snowball two simultaneously downs. Picking up survivors from dying state has similar risks to unhooking survivors. The risk is technically lower because at least you cannot get hook grabbed when healing another survivor off dying state.
Downing survivors should be the most rewarding action that the killer can do in a match. With 30.8 seconds of recovery and 4 minute bleed outs, the killer has to down survivors 5 times before there is any risk of dying. 5x4 is 20 downs. that is a lot of downs. doing 12 hooks which is 12 downs is challenging enough. 20 downs is almost double amount downs required for bleed out slugging to be threat. I still think survivor should have some minor regression(10-15%) bleed out penalty for picking up downed survivors in dying state. It would give killer more gameplay options for killer to win the match. They'd still need to get a lot of downs for any reward to come out of it. Only then can i see Base-kit unbreakable being base-mechanic.
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Some good ideas here. The only real problem I see is teams abusing it. They'll bring sould guard purposely go down under a hook with flashlight teams so picking up is impossible. Along with every system that comes to the game you will find the lowest dregs of the game coming out of their holes to ruin someone else's game.
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By saying that slugging is a problem that needs to be addressed you're forgetting that you're effectively saying you need to change the other side of the game in order to suit yourself. It's a PvP game, not everything the other side does for the sake of winning is going to be enjoyable for the opposition. In fact I'd say that it's probably a very common thing in PvP games that the average person isn't having fun unless they're winning.
Some of the issues can be solved by simply not putting yourself in a position for it to happen. Like getting slugged then moving to a place where the killer can't find you. Sure it sucks that your team isn't getting you but you chose to not want to get hooked for yourself, so those are the consequences of your actions. Same thing when a boil over player gets slugged as a counter to their build and then gets angry that the killer isn't playing into their trap. They chose to not want to get hooked so they gotta live with it.
I'd also like to point out that it's pointless to even mention the basekit unbreakable. Everyone already unanimously agreed it was a bad idea and it got permanently scrapped. This is just a similar idea with a few extra steps.
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Base-UB can be performed anywhere and can leverage crawling to its own gain.
Base-UB can be performed and still synergizes with co-op pickup given it's tied to Recovery.
Base-UB scales with Recovery speed.
Base-UB disregards Hook state/placement.
Base-UB contributes to map/Hook imbalance.
Base-UB adds no new gameplay. There is no distinct approach to utilizing it.
Base-UB detracts from gameplay. There is less incentive to go for a slug if they get up in roughly the same time it would take to go and pick them up in the first place.
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If you let the Killer spec into bleedout kills, then you would absolutely need to introduce a way for Survivors to get themselves up in some manner. Because now the Killer can "camp" a slugged survivor till bleedout and you have the same camping issues you see now.
For all intents and purposes, being slugged is effectively being on Hook. A Survivor is out of play with regards to gen-repair, and needs another Survivor to get them out of that state. The Killer gains time as they don't waste time carrying a Survivor to Hook.
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Can you elaborate on the scenario?
Part of the reason the 32s was chosen was because it mimics recovery time. In addition, if the Survivor is interrupted or stops the action, it's now 64s total before they could even self-pickup agian. Plenty of time to chase away Survivors running around a Hook with Flashlights, so far as I'm able to imagine at the moment.
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Oh, do you believe we needs counter for excessive hooking too? because that's pretty much slugging alternative and equally oppressive.
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By saying that slugging is a problem that needs to be addressed you're forgetting that you're effectively saying you need to change the other side of the game in order to suit yourself. It's a PvP game, not everything the other side does for the sake of winning is going to be enjoyable for the opposition. In fact I'd say that it's probably a very common thing in PvP games that the average person isn't having fun unless they're winning.
My concern is player engagement, not winning. What you do, and its result, are distinct. You can certainly create a system where the gameplay itself is enjoyable, even when losing statistically. But I agree that if winning is the only concern for a player then I don't really care that they get annoyed when they don't win in a PvP game.
Some of the issues can be solved by simply not putting yourself in a position for it to happen. Like getting slugged then moving to a place where the killer can't find you. Sure it sucks that your team isn't getting you but you chose to not want to get hooked for yourself, so those are the consequences of your actions. Same thing when a boil over player gets slugged as a counter to their build and then gets angry that the killer isn't playing into their trap. They chose to not want to get hooked so they gotta live with it.
The Survivor crawled away. The Killer failed at finding them. They're not picked up for an ambiguous reason. The Killer made their choice to leave the Survivor slugged. On the off-chance that the Survivor isn't being picked up because other Survivors are occupied with the Killer, this is rewarding an unskilled play of losing your slug.
In the event that the Survivors are the ones fumbling and not picking up the Survivor, that's why this suggestion is tied to specific locations (Hook), with audio cues to make it easier for the Killer to find the slug if the slug forgoes co-operative action.
I'd also like to point out that it's pointless to even mention the basekit unbreakable. Everyone already unanimously agreed it was a bad idea and it got permanently scrapped. This is just a similar idea with a few extra steps.
I also thought it was a bad idea given the suggested implementation. This is my iteration on it.
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This is basekit unbreakable. How often are you father than five feet from a given hook? They're pretty dense on every map but midwich.
The risk/reward is simply not there. It takes 30.5s to be fully recovered. It takes 32s to crawl up a hook. There's no reason to ever not simply try and get yourself up. You can either sit and try to recover which the killer can come back negate by picking you up, or you can climb up a hook which the killer can also negate by picking you up. Except one ties up a teammate and the other does not. There's no reason to ever recover.
It's weird how you're trying to torture this into anything but base unbreakable. It's like you're trying to convince yourself more than anything else.
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With a crawl speed of 0.7m/s every meter is more than a second added to the overall time it takes to pull yourself back up.
Distance away from hook scales pickup time. Is it enough to act as a deterrent?
If the Killer was intending to return to the Survivor to pick them up, they now have a reasonable guess as to where they would be, if the Survivor chose to do a self-pickup, and if the Survivor is relying on a teammate, then it’ll be the same scenario where another survivor is pulled into the mix.
If the Killer is intent on just downing a Survivor and then never bothering with them again because the Survivor now has roughly the same amount of agency as if they were on a Hook, without the Killer having to spend time putting them on one, yes this does punish that playstyle.
The intent is to get Killers conditioned to pick up Survivors and Hook them.
You’re being quite reductive just trying to call it base-Unbreakable and that that’s why it’s bad.
I think that Survivors should be able to pick themselves up, but that it should be the worst option available.
So you don’t think the scaling time-investment with distance and higher probability of the Killer knowing your location is enough?
How about it’s an Exhausting endeavor, and can’t be performed while exhausted, or it causes exhaustion.
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Instead of being a buzzwordy reductionist, you can elaborate on your stance?
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Cannot, will not, weak or overpowered, and not a single statement defining those stances.
And when did the design goal of the game become balanced around slugging as a strategy?
I thought the whole point of using Survivors as chess pieces was when they got slapped on a Hook, cementing their state as a second objective?
I can get wanting to reformat into a slug focus as a possibility, but calling the game balanced around slugging indicates that slugging has a design flaw, or that the rest of the game is too reliant on slugging. It’s an in-between step. Not a primary tool.
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Knockout? Blindness from things such as the Thrid Seal? Perks that were released during a time where game design thought a BNP finishing a gen in half a second was good? What Perks help slug that aren’t old perks?
And by Killer designed around slugging I think you mean Twins? The ones slated for a re-design?
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And those specific situations? Would one of them happen to be slugging all four Survivors at once, as a result of there being no game mechanic that allows Survivors to perform a self-pickup?
I don't want to hurt Oni/Shape/Dredge or snowball effects etc. by making this mechanic too accessible. But there needs to be something, and a threshold of slug tolerance needs to be agreed upon.
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You say misplay, I say unintended consequence of the dying state literally giving a Survivor less state agency than being Hooked (can't even attempt to unhook themselves) while effectively restricting their team contribution the same amount as being Hooked (can't do anything else but Recover and Crawl), while also allowing the Killer to leverage the time-efficiency of never having to pick up the Survivor in the first place, even being able to snowball with Perks and Powers like you mentioned above.
Given enough Lethality and/or Mobility, no, I wouldn't call it always a misplay.
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The thing is, the downed Survivor still needs someone to pick them up, or they get Killed by bleedout. Take advantage of that, zone around the slugged Survivor while you patrol, double-back frequently. If you catch someone coming in for the rescue, that's a free hit, and if they commit to the pickup, another down with you right on the tail of the picked-up Survivor.
This is the kinda strat I used when I wanted to see if I could 4K slug as Ghostface. After slugging, feign a patrol commitment, but prioritize circling back and going for the rescuer.
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The killer spends more time downing the survivor then the survivor does recovering into 2 second pick-up. The action of downing is high time commitment move from the killer. The unbreakable effect effectively add a 5th player to the match because the survivor team can sit on generators while the pick-up naturally happens as there is no need for teamwork. The other concern of unbreakable is that the survivor can play passively while the killer gets punished for playing passively due to self-pick ups. it prevents 3 man and 4 man slugging completely. that is kinda powerful for base-kit mechanic that I feel like survivor should need equip a perk for that to be the case.
The Killer gains time as they don't waste time carrying a Survivor to Hook
One of aspect that BVHR wants to move away from is killer being forced to run generator-delay type perks. This is why there was an experimental PTB where they decreased healing speed to add more base-kit and attempted to weaken all forms of regression perks. I do think this is good direction but I think their approach was a bit too forceful in terms of fun factor. In order to move away from forced generator-delay type perks, the killer need to be able to generate pressure naturally and generate slowdown naturally. 24 second of healing was admittedly a bit too brutal. Slugging is a form that allows killer to put pressure on survivors. The slowdown is more subtle as it does not increase the time spending m1 by increasing healing time or increasing generator time but it add secondary objective for the survivor by getting survivors off generators to pick-up teammates.
now the Killer can "camp" a slugged survivor till bleedout and you have the same camping issues you see now.
Sure but first down bleed out is 4 minutes long. Its impractical from time stand-point to camp. You could argue that the killer could down the survivor two times where bleed out timer is reduced to 1:30 or less then camp but at that point, the killer is attempting to reap benefits from his previous downs. I thought BVHR was a fine with facecamping since they allowed that with hooks but as of recent dev stream, they are implemented anti-face camping mechanics. So maybe in future, they might need implement anti-face camping slug mechanics assuming this type of gameplay becomes prominent. There is definitely perks for this. Soulguard grants endurence when you are picked up. This is little bit like Off the record for slugging(but duration is only 8 seconds) and We're gonna live forever grants endurance for picking up the survivor from dying state which is similar to Borrow time. I think this is looking way too much in the future though.
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The killer spends more time downing the survivor then the survivor does recovering into 2 second pick-up. The action of downing is high time commitment move from the killer. The unbreakable effect effectively add a 5th player to the match because the survivor team can sit on generators while the pick-up naturally happens as there is no need for teamwork
If the Killer picks up the Survivor and Hooks them, it circumvents this effect. One of the things I take issue with slugging is that it's functionally Hooking a Survivor in terms of available Survivor agency.
The other concern of unbreakable is that the survivor can play passively while the killer gets punished for playing passively due to self-pick ups.
I don't want that either, I want a self-pickup to be the worst option available such that it's only a good option when none are left.
it prevents 3 man and 4 man slugging completely. that is kinda powerful for base-kit mechanic that I feel like survivor should need equip a perk for that to be the case.
Base game mechanics are there to shape the core of the game. Repairing generators isn't a Perk, nor is being able to drop a Pallet.
One of aspect that BVHR wants to move away from is killer being forced to run generator-delay type perks.
And I do agree with that. I'd like to see Survivors early-game weakened, or at very least distributed across other periods of the Trial.
Sure but first down bleed out is 4 minutes long. Its impractical from time stand-point to camp.
It is impractical to camp, that's why you proxy-camp and zone, because you know where the Survivor is, and how to leverage your pathing well. It's the same thing that people are going to complain about if the current anti-camp measures come into play, because it sure as heck won't make it hard to tunnel.
There is definitely perks for this. Soulguard grants endurence when you are picked up. This is little bit like Off the record for slugging(but duration is only 8 seconds) and We're gonna live forever grants endurance for picking up the survivor from dying state which is similar to Borrow time. I think this is looking way too much in the future though.
At the very least it acts as precursor discussion to chew through, once the issues arise.
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It's also way easier to unhook a Survivor than it is to down a survivor. But people still complain about facecamping for some reason.
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And I do agree with that. I'd like to see Survivors early-game weakened, or at very least distributed across other periods of the Trial.
I do not think this is necessary feasible. I do not want to go into explicit details in regards to pallets for why they create a bad early game but I think that killer by design is meant to be backfoot in DBD. I don't really see that changing completely. early games will likely be more balanced when loops/chases are more equal in control for killer to shorten chases as survivors are to extend the chase. I think this is more of map balance/loop design problem in my opinion.
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I agree.
And in my opinion, pallets are part of map balance/loop design. Because they augment how strong a loop can be.
Some side drivel:
A 4K isn't the balance point. It's around a 2-3K, so given equivalent skill the Survivors should nearly always reach the point that they Power the Exit Gates.
Anti-camp/Tunnel/Slug aren't pain points because of balance, it's because of how they make the game feel.
And I agree with that sentiment, sitting around for most of the time isn't all that engaging, be it being on Hook, slugged, sitting on a generator with no tension that the Killer might be around. But if those changes come to pass, it's going to be necessary to address Killer gameplay too.
I know for myself that a pain point when I play Killer is that at the start of the game the abundance of Pallets means that smart Survivors are able to chain them for basically as long as they're able to not cock-up. Most usually mess up in chase, but some are really good pre-droppers. This is balanced too, as I'm eating through Pallets like a woodchipper, weakening the loop strength of the late-game. But, if the match is balanced appropriately by MMR, it's assuming a 2-3K, it isn't counting Hooks, so it's possible it's a 2-3K game with only 2-3 chases and a whole lot of proxy-camping at the end-game.
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After reading a bunch of the stuff, i think its fair to say that in the same way that being slugged and waiting around for something to happen is poor gameplay experience, slugging survivors and just camping and waiting around is equally poor gameplay experience for our purposes.
At the end of the day, if the killer wants to have a relatively crappy experience being campy and waiting for survivors to slug out, theyre gonna have that crappy gameplay experience no matter how they have to do it, and trying to address it wont make the problem go away.
As much as this sounds like a really good concept and i would love to try it out personally, it just doesnt seem like something that would be more positive than negative for the majority of people.
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Which is a fair take, this is attempting to address an edge-case.
My only counter-argument would be that as it is, the dying state has far too many similarities to being Hooked. But that can be approached in more ways than making slugging less attractive (such as making Hooking a Survivor more attractive).
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