Killers should be punished for tunnelling and not rewarded
Comments
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Killers should be rewarded for killing period.
Right now it's ridiculous, you can get a very strong game with a 4k and get no pip/score... because survivors played bad of all things!
Tunneling is NOT an issue, it's a legitimate strategy on killer's side and survivor should just learn to COUNTER PLAY it.
A 1k is still a win for survivors the same way a 3k is still a win for killer.
If one must take one for the team, they should do so gracefully and get BPs for sticking around.
Don't try to punish bad behaviors, that DON'T WORK with trolls. They will keep doing it just to irritate others no matter what.
Instead, reward players for playing for their team... even if it means them doing skillchecks on the hook... just reward that.
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Ina lore. Entity feeds on emotions. While survivors are killed they no longer feel emotions (theory sais their memories about failed trial are erased). So lorewise, Entity should force killer to play with survivors as long as it is possible, hurting them, tormenting them and making their life as miserable as it is possible, and killing only at the end to feed as much as possible. Fast kill is not what Entity wants lorewise so it should not be what Entity wants in a game thus "kills" should not be killers main objectives.
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There are many other ways to deter this from happening. Buffing survivor protection who are being tunnelled would be one prime example.
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I do not care about the part where you mentioned the other 2 because this post is only about tunnelling, it happens too often for it to be classed as a strategy, it is killer easy mode. Needs a nerf.
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Waiting for someone to be unhooked and then swinging at them right away to cancel the BT protection or counting to 15 seconds before continuing to tunnel and then instadown. Please don't bring base BT into tunnelling when it makes no difference whatsoever.
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Explain how it is hard to pip as a killer? I can load into a game right now and kill 2 survivors from tunnelling and I would still get 2 pips with 0 effort.
"Tunneling is NOT an issue, it's a legitimate strategy on killer's side and survivor should just learn to COUNTER PLAY it."
And what counterplay do you have in mind? EVERY Anti-tunnelling perk has been nerfed except one, and that's OTR.
DS - Nerfed and makes 0 difference, the killer will still continue to tunnel within 3 seconds
DH - Nerfed, I've seen it in two games since it's nerf so that should just go to show how bad it is now.
OTR - Still strong but useless when you are hit while being unhooked
FTP - You have to be extremely lucky for a teammate to be running this (1% equip chance)
BO - Nerfed, if I had to give it a statistic for actually working i'd say 5% out of 100%
BT - Base kit, no one really uses it anymore and you're almost always hit while being unhooked, makes 0 diff to being tunnelled
IW - NERFED, people who use a headset and soundw, it makes 0 diff to them and they can still hear you
Even with ALL of these changes it is obvious survivors can do nothing against being tunnelled because tunnelling rose to prominence so quickly after they were all nerfed, DH was the last straw before hunting season and now it really is open season for killers. If a killer is dead-set on tunnelling you there is NOTHING you can do. I see it time and time again and every single match where someone DC's it's usually because they're being tunnelled.
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end game builds -> nerfed
3-gen -> nerfed
camping -> nerfed
slowdown perks -> nerfed
Everything except tunneling was nerfed, perks that did promote different strategies were nerfed. Probably best time was during BBQ, pop, ruin. All of those were nerfed.
Only thing that got buffed back (was nerfed to oblivion becaue of CoH) is hit&run, but there is only few killers that actually can use it properly.
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Hit and run is not back because base time of healing each other is still low. Even if you distribute hits and everyone is constantly wounded that doesn't provide sufficient pressure because 2 survivors can recover each other back to full health at the same rate as before.
The biggest question here is how survivors want killers to play? For 12 hooks only? Because every other kind of play should not be possible, at least that's what the consensus is about among many survivor players.
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How do Killers want survivors to play? Would you prefer if they spawned on hook? Would you prefer that Killers never had any challenge at all and they always got an ez 4K?
What would be the point of people playing Survivor if they knew they didn't have a chance of surviving?
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Exactly, lore wise, killing fast is not what the entity wants
But it's also kind of contradictory since bleeding out is a much slower death than simply being sacrificed, yet when you bleed them out then it says "the entity hungers" like the devs are going against their own lore?
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The only way to completely fix tunneling is to get rid of the three strikes system and introduce a ticket based system similar to the game 'Depth.'
Then it wouldn't matter if you get "tunneled" over and over again, because nobody would actually start dying until all the "respawn tickets" are used up.
I suggest this since nobody wants to drop all the made up terminology and accept the game's current iteration.
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It actually works the other way around. Pain Res does not regress completed gens but it does regress gens that have 50% progress.
How exactly would you punish the killer for tunneling and how would you compensate them? Because the most common suggestions turn out to be flat out nerfs to killers and not really solutions to the issue at hand. If it was worth it going for 12 hooks, more killers would do it. But as long as the only incentive to not tunnel is to basically throw the game, get teabagged at the exit gate and harassed in end game chase I can't blame anyone for tunneling the hell out of the first survivor they find.
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Such a dumb argument honestly, you dont even know who you're playing against and blindly "punish" them with a boring tunnel game just for the small chance they might be toxic players... "All survivors are toxic and deserve to be tunneled" Yeah great mindset!
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Read again, play a game of killer and maybe try to understand what I actually said. There is not other incentive not to tunnel other than to actively play inefficient, which handicaps you and makes you lose matches you would otherwise win.
Of course you punish people by tunneling. You punish them for being an easy target. Would you stop doing gens and run towards the killer to get hooked when their match doesn't go well? No, you'd use their lack of pressure against them by sticking to gens and finish the game before they can make a comeback. There is nothing wrong with that. That is simply your best play.
There is absolutely 0 reason why a killer shouldn't tunnel other than "It might make the survivors unhappy." Do you honestly expect killer players to place that as their top priority? When survivors wouldn't do the same thing? I don't blame either side for playing how they want to play as long as they don't break any of the game's rules. I'm just saying there is no reason to play nice.
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Do killers complain that survivors are doing their objectives in general? No. Killers complain that they keep getting their tools taken away from them so it becomes more difficult to compete against survivors.
Nobody wants easy game. People want a fair game where mistakes aren't that punishing and there's always comeback potential for both sides. The problem here is killer is alone and needs to use all options available where survivors are 4 and they all share the same objective and can play lax at times. If one survivor does mess up somewhere, 3 others can carry the game but if killer does mess up, no help is coming. Killers do tunnel because it's a form of pressure that often works and time-wise is the most effective way to keep up with gen progression rate that currently exists ( 1 or 2 gens per 1 hook ).
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Because of some players, and cries, yes. Devs are against their own lore.
Tho about bleeding we can assume that bleeding is not very emotional, thrilling etc, thus provide less food for the Entity. Hooking and sacrificing them is best way to please the Entity, but this should be preceded by chases, hits, hooks, and torment.
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I play killer, dont know why you think i wouldnt, doesnt mean i play the braindead tunnel at 5 gens playstyle, nor that i think its necessary.
Yet, the discussion is that the game should change in a way that tunneling is not the "most efficient" way to play. The Topic is about the game mechanics, not about you feeling the necessity of tunneling to preserve pressure because you are scared of someone pressing CTRL at the exit gate.
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I'm not sure if a ticket system would be effective enough.. Imagine someone being new to the game and wasting all of the lives within the first 2 minutes, t hen everyone else is insta-dead on the hook and I'm sure people would be more toxic via chat and messages. Personally I think it is not the way to go.
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I didn't know that, that's actually quite interesting.
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You couldn't waste the tickets in 2 minutes
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I think the compensation for killers has already been added with all the anti-tunnelling nerfs to survivors already and that's why DBD is in this state atm.
I know no one would like this suggestion but it is the most effective one I can think about which will make the game feel more balanced. The killer should only be able to tunnel when there are either 2-3 gens left (some extra exceptions will have to be made to stop survivors exploiting this, maybe after a certain % has been reached) OR all 5 gens are above 50% progress (again, exceptions must be made for this to be effective).
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The problem is the only thing survivors can do is gens, killers on the other hand have multiple ways to kill someone. I do agree other ways to win do need a buff, or some new ways added at the very least to help mix up the gameplay and keep it feeling fresh for both sides.
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I suggested in a suggestion post on here that Hex: Ruin should be basekit for killers to help slowdown the game slightly and also make it a different colour to other totems. It would be easier to find and the game would become more interesting in general.
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So how would this idea work? Survivors have X amount of lives and once they're all dead they're gone for good? or?
And now that you mention it.. maybe allowing teammates to give you 1 extra life if they wanted to as well? (that 1 life would be permanent and you wont be able to transfer it back) That could maybe stop killers from tunnelling as aggressively.
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The killer has 4 ways of trying to win the game:
1) Going for 12 hooks. This is where a lot of people would like to go (myself included). But for that to be desirable for the killer there needs to be an incentive to play like this instead of utilizing one or all of the other strategies.
2) Tunneling. I already covered that this is a way to build more pressure and achieve better results.
3) Camping. This is another strategy we do not want killers to use and we'll get an update to help with that but it should be listed anyway.
4) Slugging for a comeback. Often times a killer will find themself in a position where they will not be able to win by hooks, they need to take survivors out of the match another way.
Looking at this, you'll find that 2), 3) and 4) are often complained about (understandably) but they all come in clutch where option 1) fails. My point is that punishing killers for tunneling and camping will lead to an uproar in slugging and when that doesn't work, they'll brute force through all safety walls BHVR put in place and still tunnel and camp. Mainly because 1) has no advantages over 2), 3) and 4) combined. This is why I want to see incentives to go for more hooks.
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I feel as though 12 hooks is too much for a killer if the survivor team they're up against are all very experienced and the killer is a lot lower in MMR. Killers need new ways to kill survivors in general. From my experience killers just go straight to #2 from the start of the game and ignore the others though so thats an issue.. And honestly if a killer can slug all 4 survivors then props to him.
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Unfortunately this would get down voted fast by survivor horde as by their logic killers should win only by their own pure skill and are not allowed to have any form of help if they struggle. However, should survivors be forced to do some extra actions by any means because of killer perks, be sure those perks get massively toned down to the point of being either useless or 1 out of 10 case useful.
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Not true, perks only get toned down when they are heavily oppressive to both sides. I've agreed with all past changes except nerfs to anti-tunnelling.
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That's true but what about hooking twice then leaving them to bleed? That prolongs the death and should be more suffering
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Slugging takes a lot longer though, and I don't get why its hated because of that reason
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Agree. sometimes i start discussions, and when its needed im trying to say my thought about this, but i highly agree with the premise that survivors should be hooked instead of instakill. Being left to bleed after being hooked 2 times should also pleased Entity. Its all about hooks, and should always be about hooks, chases and hits, not kills on its own.
Remember, that there is also an aspect of hope - survivors need to believe that there is a hope and they can escape. Slugging them to death removes that hope. And we know that survivors that lost there hope are left by the Entity and dont take part in trials.
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My idea to resolve both tunneling and camping, while at the same time keep premise of the game AND make it lorewise is to introduce timelimit.
Survivors cannot be killed before time is out.
Hooks and mories slows survivors down, but what kills them is the dawn (less litteraly since lot of maps are bright).
If survs repair all gates (and use BOTH exit gate switches) before time limit, they won, and killer is bannished (potentially punished because they did not make their objective). If survs failed before time is up, they are consumed by the Entity and are dead by daylight.
Of course this needs balansing over killer strenght, time limit and gen efficiency. But i Hope You git the premise.
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Probably because it has the potential for a survivor to die on first and isn't exactly interactive when you're laying on the ground waiting for someone to come and pick you up.
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You act like every random Survivor works like a team that's not the case, when I played Survivor most of my randoms did nothing to "carry me" or my mistakes
Not because they were bad at the game but because killers add pressure to do the objective faster by tunneling a Survivor out of the game right off the bat.
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Thats pretty much what being hooked is, you're just waiting for someone to help you until you die
The only difference is that being in dying state takes a lot longer and you can move around
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Have you ever considered the fact that maybe your team mates were actually weak and couldn't loop killer long enough? Or maybe they didn't do the objectives efficiently?
You should not put a blame on killer if your team mates perform poor for whatever reason.
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I guess the missing feeling of urgency contributes to it. Personally I don't care, if I'm being slugged as long as I don't have to bleed out (4 minutes can drag on forever), so I'm really just guessing.
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Right cuz every game I've played this year as Survivor most of my randoms were just weak, it's always just a skill issue.
I've had this game since 2020 and my games have never been this bad before.
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Actually you failed to acknowledge that I did say my teammates would do the objective it's just the killer added extra pressure by tunneling a Survivor out of the game right at the start it's hard to get five gens done with only 3 survivors that's probably why the game starts with 4 survivors
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Well for example, in the game 'Depth' the team of 4 divers (survivors) start with 30 respawn tickets, as the divers are killed by the sharks (killer), they use up the respawn tickets. Once the ticket counter reaches zero, the divers can then be hard eliminated from the game.
With this type of system applied to DbD, it wouldn't matter if the killer targeted the same person the entire game. All tickets would need to be used up before anybody could physically be removed from the game. It would make "tunneling" and "camping" pointless, and ultimately, a sure way for the killer to lose the match.
What the ticket pool ought to be for survivors might take some experimentation though.
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Actually no, this would incetive tunneling even more since hooking the weakest link constantly would eliminate all tickets from better loopers so they would have only one chance. And tunneling would deplete those tickets much faster than trying to spread hooks with better loopers.
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Oh right, share hook pool.
Hell no, soloQ is bad enough. It would be amazing for SWF.
I would love to see one troll using all our hooks while running towards killer.
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Using this absurd logic, why aren’t survivors punished for completing gens all the way from 0% to 100% without giving the killer a chance to hook them?
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Tunneling is an optional play style that killers have, as of late killers are abusing that option.
If survivors didn't do gens then they're just running around waiting to get hooked, what would be the point of playing Survivor?
Considering gens take 90 seconds each, not being able to complete them from 0% to 100% would be a ridiculous mechanic, Killers have plenty of gen regression perks they could use to give them more time.
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Tunneling people is not an objective. Sacrificing people is one of four objectives for killer. Find another one to work on after you hook someone. Maybe find another survivor, one of the other killer objectives.
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I never tunnel in matches and generally 4k. No one has to play like that. Hook someone, go find another someone, then hook them. It is a pretty simple recipe to win without garbage game play. If I get out played w/o tunneling then I guess they were better than me and deserved the win. It does not prompt me to play trashy, just get better.
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- Tunneling can be a legitimate strategy, especially if the killer is facing a very good survivor.
- However, tunneling can also be seen as a form of bullying, especially if the killer is targeting a new or unskilled survivor.
- It is important to find a balance between rewarding killers for playing aggressively and preventing them from being overly oppressive.
- Ultimately, the best way to deal with tunneling is to play as a team and communicate with your teammates. If you see a survivor being tunneled, try to distract the killer or bodyblock them so that they can escape.
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I really don’t see why they nerf everything (except pain res, that was wild!). It skews the overall feel for everyone.
Tunnelling could be easily resolved; don’t make it so obvious to track an injured survivor off hook, delay the blood or disappear faster (off hook only). Or auto hide scratch and blood for 5 seconds to gain distance.
Even better, just deduct a value of point if entering chase again within X seconds of coming off hook. I would make it 10% of current cumulative points plus an extra 2% per second until chase lost or straight-up 50% of all points if a successful second hook from tunnelling.
To distinguish ‘tunnelling’, they would be a timed gap of say; 30-45 seconds for it to activate from previous hook?
The only way you will stop is reducing points. The counter is, add some power back to some of these perks. I’d def get CoB to say 150%. Pain Res limit to 4 tokens to 6 etc.
As survivor main, I don’t see any issue with gen regression, it gives more game time and levels up a bit between killer and survivor.
They need to add more to do in the game though, gens are boring as hell. Why not find keys to open chest to unlock gates or something like that. There’s so many things they could do to add a bit more enjoyment.
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Not sure how you reasonably interact in SoloQ.
The best way is to just make it an unsuitable play style.
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What about when all 4 survivors TUNNEL a gen?
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