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Do you think tunnelling is fair?
Comments
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I was toying around with an idea that would give the unhooked survivor 300% haste for 3 seconds, giving them roughly 32m of distance from the hook, but I couldn't think of a suitable way for it to deactivate in endgame so as to prevent guaranteed escapes.
I also couldn't think of adequate compensation for the killer.
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As explained above, a full hook stage would be like a completed gen. Both can´t go back.
But when a killer chases a injured survivor and another survivor goes to body block, if the killer doesn´t switch the target, he gets called a tunneler. This fully applies to regressing gens.
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Why do killers have a choice but survivors don´t? Killers need to get 12 hooks. 4 survivors need to repair 5 gens. Thats 1 1/4 gen per survivor. They absolutely can choose to not go for that gen thats at 30% and regressing, but never will ignore it for a fresh one.
My point still stands. Killers can´t play efficiently without getting called names. But survivors see no wrong with playing themselves efficiently. Its the objective of both sides. Don´t take it personal if you are the target. It could be anyone else who the killer is going for. The killer has nothing against you personally. He just wants to win the game. Just like survivors.
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Finally someone who understands me.
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I don’t really consider it fair when it’s done to someone who is the weak link and it turns out it’s someone with like 60 hours on the game
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Galleta?
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Ah, yes, Freddy. The scourge of Survivors everywhere! But seriously, this is exactly what I said. "I'm good, therefore X is fine." As I also said, nothing good will come from this conversation continuing, and I can see that the straws you were grasping at have fallen into your shoes. I can see there was a point of confusion, which I'll clear up now. When I said (paraphrasing), "12-hook games is something most Killers cannot reliably do," I didn't mean Killer players, I meant the characters themselves. Trapper, for example, will have a much, much harder time getting 12-hooks consistently than a Blight would. That was my bad for not making myself clear. I wasn't arguing that Killer players are bad and need their hand holding.
Fun little conversation, but it is sadly at an end now. Feel free to have the last word, but don't ping me.
Post edited by Raconteurminator on0 -
If survivors sincerely considered "tunneling" to be that big of a problem, they would stack anti-tunnel perks instead of mft+resi builds.
Survivors already play with 5 perks thanks to basekit BT. we dont need survivors using MFT+Resi+hope+adren AND getting another 4 Perk effects just because they got off the hook.
There already exists perks to counter the "unfun tactics" survivors claim.
Dont like slugging? bring Unbreakable.
Hate getting punished because of your teammate doing an unsafe rescue? bring OTR and DS.
Hate camping? Bring reassurance or just literally finish your gens. In 120 seconds the remaining team can finish 3 gens and 99 the other 2.
If your teammate unhooks you in the killers face, thats your teammates fault, not the killer for punishing it.
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These kinds of posts always bring out the most entitled of survivors essentially asking for BHVR to give them more basekit perks because survivors are unable to grasp the concept of swapping out their perks.
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The only marginally acceptable proposal is to remove player collision from survivors with basekit BT and OTR endurance so they dont get THEMSELVES tunneled.
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Finishing all gens too fast ruins the experience for the killer and sucks the fun out of the game.
But I guess it's fine cause a gen isn't a person?
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People get so salty when a different word is used for a description.
Both describe "focusing on an objective while neglecting/ignoring other objectives"...
So disingenous.
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Survivors don't have another objective. It's either do gens, or do nothing. You can't undo a hook state, but you can undo gen progress. I think it's weird that people are more concerned with winning than they are with actually having a fun, enjoyable experience.
Genrushing is boring, tunneling is boring. Both suck the fun out of the game and ruin the experience for the other party.
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I think it depends. Tunnelling at 5 gens can feel pretty unfair, but at lower gens it can feel like the only way to secure a kill.
It definitely isn't very fun, which I think is important, but DbD seems to be stuck in an endless loop of "One side winning = Other side hacing a ######### time."
This, in a nutshell. People are so stuck up their own ass about winning that they do everything possible to have the most effecient, boring game possible. I don't get it.
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That's exactly why it's fine.
You realize a Gen rushing game is like 2-3 minutes right? It takes longer to do business in a washroom and the killer gets to play the entire match.
Even if it results in a loss, which isn't guaranteed because of EGC plays. That is the lesser evil compared to a survivor having to afk on a hook to not screw their team over because of camping or tunneling.
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neither does the killer? the objective is just to kill the survivors.
you can't undo a hook state, and you can't undo finished gens. that's the correct comparison.
regressing gens is akin to a survivor getting a stun or something like that. reseting the distance between them and the killer. so the "chase progress" is "regressed".
either they are both fine, or none is.
the killer is one affected, are killers not people too? do they not deserve a fun game where they get to do their thing instead of downing one survivor and the gates opening?
it's silly. the survivor getting tunneled also played the entire match. and according to most people I hear, getting chased is the most fun part of the game.
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It depends on what kind of tunneling we are talking about, if a killer tunnels at 2 gens left then I can't blame them because if all four survivors are still alive then they often have to tunnel to turn the game around.
People who immediately tunnel at the start of the game though, that kind of tunneling is neither fun nor fair, it takes no skill to do and leads to frustration for the people that experience it. Not to mention that people who play killer and rely on tunneling gets boosted to an MMR that is above their skill level, which means they get obliterated by experienced survivors who can counter that strategy and it all just cements this mindset of "I have to tunnel to have a chance".
Tunneling needs to be removed, and that might mean that killers need a overall buff so that tunneling never feels necessary.
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Going by definition It's fair, but it's also corny
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Playing exclusively solo q I'll say tunneling is broken.
If the killer picks the wrong survivor at the start and over commit, they lose 2 gens realize they will lose and then camp and tunnel. Usually will win.
I'd say that's fair against swf but not solo q with matchmaking in the state it's in now.
Second chance perks are dead but killer still has tunnel and camp to crutch.
When I play swf the tunneling doesn't work out as well.
When I play killer I go for the tunnel because I dnt know how to counter loop. Can't be bothered to learn.
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Yes, if I were to get tunneled at all in any game I'd want it to be mid/late game. I hate when killers tunnel at 5 gens when I've barely had time to enjoy the match.
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Honestly all I am reading from all your responses it that you seem to think that the only way to have fun as a killer is if you get a 4K and you're willing to do anything to get it, which is stupid. Getting at least a 2K is super easy and if you're really struggling with even that then you're at the wrong MMR which will correct itself over time.
There is no such thing as gen rush in average game, only coordinated SWFs can do it and those games are rare. And most people understand that if you play survivor and play in a way that puts you at risk then that's on you, generalizing all survivor players as complainers is just silly.
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Unfair and unfun I agree. Unfortunately just currently necessary in many matches so while I don’t enjoy getting it on the receiving end I understand why they need to and I don’t blame them, I blame design, as you mentioned.
Also as you mentioned I agree we need incentives for hooks and reward killers for spreading their hooks around as it currently makes no logical sense to do.
As another person also pointed out correctly, while killers tunneling survivors isn’t fun, it’s also not fun with survivors tunneling gens. Hopefully a solution for both these would be nice.
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No, the killer's objective is not to kill the survivors. That's their win condition. The survivors win condition is to escape. The survivors objective is to repair the generators to power the exit gates. The killer's objective is to prevent the survivors from completing their objective.
You likened hook states to completed generators, and that just doesn't work because the two are not comparable. A generator can be regressed, and progress can be stalled almost indefinitely. A completed generator cannot be undone, but there is nothing a survivor can do to avoid being tunneled, nor can their team prevent the killer from doing so.
Efficiency is boring. If everyone played the game in the most efficient way possible, nobody would want to play anymore, because it's boring. It's why people complain about tunneling, camping, and genrushing. They're all so, so boring.
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Way before the DS rework, before basekit BT, people would say the same things.
This resulted in survivors stacking "second chance" perks. This made killers irrationally angry, because survivors weren't actually supposed to listen.
DS, UB, DH, BT. I've played long enough to remember when that was quite literally every game on every survivor who's been playing the game for longer than 100 hours.
The DS rework needed to happen, but then they nerfed the stun duration so now it's worthless. DH needed a nerf, but then they nerfed it again, and now almost nobody uses it. UB is so situational that you only ever see it complained about in Twins games. BT only extends the duration for which an unhooked survivor has endurance and haste for. OTR is a fantastic anti-tunnel perk, unless the killer decides they're just going to tunnel you anyway.
There's basically nothing survivors can do to outright stop the killer from tunneling them. They can only delay the killer.
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yes it is. the objective is to kill the survivors. or rather sacrifice them to the entity. in order to do this they gotta chase and down survivors. if they are fast enough at it, they do not need to even care about the gens.
they are comparable. progressing a gen is like getting the 2 hits on the survivor. you finish a gen and permanently progress in your ultimate goal of excaping. same for getting the 2 hit and getting a hook state on the survivor.
you can delay the other side by regressing the gens or saving your teammate before they are hooked. but that is more about getting in the way of the other side over progressing your objective.
there's a lot a survivor can do to avoid being tunneled. from perks to simple actions like not taking a hit for the person who unhooked you.
and you can certainly stop a killer from tunneling another teammate depending on the situation.
delaying the killer has always been what survivors are supposed to do.
also, all of these perks are still good at their job. and dh was the 10th most used perk if I remember correctly.
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Haven´t mentioned fun or gen rushing in any of my comments in this thread though.
And no, thats not what i think.
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You completely ignored the actual facet of tunneling, being immediately chased off hook, to latch onto Freddy's ability to teleport instead. You are seeing the individual leaves of a single tree, not the forest I am trying to mention. If you want to conveniently ignore the major points to laser focus on the minor points, you aren't engaging in good faith.
I do agree certain Killer's kits lend more towards a snowbally, end the game 'early' (not 12 hook) style. Like if say that Trapper got a basement hook with some traps set up, or an Oni getting a multi-down in power. Anti-tunnel effects wouldn't disrupt these methods of snowball victory, as people are downed before they get rescues, not after, and are lost upon the CA of trying to pick up a downed teammate.
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If you remember the DS UB DH BT meta you know why that was heavily disliked.
DH being used for distance and forcing killers to sniff a survivors hair for 10 seconds to try to bait it before actually M1ing. (not to mention being available every time you were injured)
BT much like today, being used offensively to bodyblock the killer with endurance.
If the killer tried punishing the BT bodyblock , the killer had to eat the DS, or concede a Self pickup via UB OR wait a full minute, OR allow another survivor to pick up the bodyblocker.
That meta was filled with Lose-lose / uncounterable situations and that is why people hated it.
And much like survivors keep complaining about "facing the same killer 5 times in a row", you can't even begin to comprehend how frustrating it was to go up against "Meta survivor nº123456789"
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Current day, the same loadout is perfectly fine since you can't pull that crap now.
How are you going to complain about "slugging" then turn around and claim "Unbreakable is so situational you'll only see it complained about in twins games"
What is the logic behind survivors claiming to be "tunneled and camped every game" then turn around and bring Hope+Adren for end game? if you did get "tunneled and camped every game" you'd think to bring perks to help you deal with that and not an endgame build.
Again, adapt and overcome, learn to swap your perks to an anti-tunnel/slug build if you ACTUALLY get tunneled that much.
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And you're ignoring that the conversation is over. It was over before your previous post. I wasn't trying to engage in anything at that point, I was making a clarification and signing off (asking you not to ping me, which you also paid stellar attention to).
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You're missing the forest for the trees. The killer's objective is to prevent the exit gates from being powered. The killer's win condition is simply to Kill all four survivors, by any means.
The survivors objective is to power the exit gates. Their win condition is to Escape.
Progressing a generator is not at all like getting two hits on a survivor. Generators cannot be likened to hook states. I sufficiently explained why. The only commonality they have is that they permanently progress the objective. Survivors can do nothing to avoid being tunneled, short of never being found in the first place.
You're talking about tunneling like the only time it ever happens is when survivors induce it. Survivor-induced tunneling is not tunneling. You can do absolutely nothing wrong, but because you were the first hooked, the killer has to tunnel you out of the game for the sake of efficiency.
All the second chance perks in the game won't save you from a killer who wants you out of the match. They'll throw the match to make it happen, if that's what it takes, and the only thing you did wrong was be the first person hooked.
Being tunneled simply isn't fun, much like being genrushed isn't fun, yet the former is more common than the latter.
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It depends on the context. If you are going after someone who was just removed from a hook, I'd say no, it's not fair. If you go out of your way to hook someone until they die, again no. If you find someone who was unhooked last, but they are out of position or are goading you into chasing them, then yes it's fair.
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Oh I fully understand why it was a problem, but at what point do we stop telling people to pigeonhole themselves into builds and then complain when they actually do it?
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so let's assume the killer bodyblocks everyone and they can't progress any gens. therefore the gates are never gonna be powered.
did the killer win? after all, you said his objective is to stop the gates. he did. did that make him win? is that how it works?
if the gates are opened and the killer downs and hooks all 4 survivors, did he lose? since he failed his apparent objective?
and I'm the one missing the forest for the trees?
also. done with this. have fun talking alone.
Post edited by Alice_pbg on5 -
Sure, one could say that tunneling is fair, but it is also problematic for several reasons.
- As many pointed out, it is unfun for the Survivors, leading to many DC's and hook suicides, which is another issue that is frequently complained about.
- It leads to stagnation in Killer power design improvements. Players are too busy tunneling to learn to use the Killer's powers effectively and provide constructive feedback. And then the devs will look at the stats and say "Oh, that Killer has enough kills already (because they tunnel all the time), so they don't need improvements."
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Actually, its more off a devils spin.
Killer tunnel and camp -> They get high MMR as if they wouldnt tunnel -> They need to tunnel and camp even more, otherwise they lose.
So actually, its mostly a skill issue. Gen Rushing is a side effect off that, since survivors are most likely to die fast, so the game needs to be done fast.
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Its more off an design flaw.
Tunneling isnt that much wanted from the dev's, otherwise they wouldnt give you tools for it.
Its not a skill issue for survivors, since ressources are sparce and they killer is made to win.
So its just bad game design, they tried to fix it with band aids who dont really work.
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OK...
So MMR is based on Kills and Escapes... it isn't based on Gens and Hooks
Players want to be "the best of the best"... so they take the MMR system and use it to their advantage
And that means completing Objectives as fast as possible
And again is it fun... no
Is it fair... kinda
It's a viscous cycle... Killer Tunnel then Survivors will do Gens faster, Survivors doing Gens fast then Killer Tunnel
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It honestly seems to me that tunneling isn't necessarily a strategy most killers "choose" as much as one that survivors throw in their lap. I haven't been playing this game nearly as long as most on this forum, but from what I've seen tunneling is so effective because a high percentage of the time someone gets hooked another survivor is going to run up and pull them off the hook nearly immediately.
If the killer is barely 5 steps away and someone is going to go yank the hooked survivor down why wouldn't the killer turn around and go after a survivor that has already been hooked once. They didn't ask the other survivor to perform an unsafe hook rescue, but they aren't likely ignore their good fortune. They can eliminate a survivor quicker by going after the one that's already one hook down. Plus they can pretty much be guaranteed the survivor that played hero the first time is going to do it again. That means he has at least 2 survivors that aren't even attempting to do objectives.
Maybe that will change as I play this game more and get paired with higher rank survivors, but for now it seems to me tunneling isn't so much a killer strategy as a gift survivors willingly give to killers. It just always amazes me to see a survivor get mad a killer tunneled when they are the one to blame for it. It would be like going out to play basketball and giving the ball to opposite team every time you got it and then being mad they took it and scored.
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Nobody is "pigeonholing" anyone, its quite a simple premise, if you really do think Slugging camping and tunneling occurs in 100% of the matches, logically you'd bring anti-tunnel/slug/camp perks. Otherwise its safe to assume its just survivors throwing a fit because the killer knows basic math and can count to 10 to punish a basekit BT body block
Demanding the anti-tunnel/slug/camp perks be basekit because survivors want their benefits while also running MFT+Resi builds is a massive reason as to why people consider survivor mains some of the most entitled creatures.
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I think grade pips and Event BP/rewards add unnecessary frustration that may make tunneling feel unfair.
You get tunneled out before you can do anything you lose a pip. Rest of team might pip or safety pip but once it's 3v1 odds of escape drop so probably only getting silver in survival, and depending on what you could do for the other categories and what grade you're at odds are you'll be losing a pip. Losing progress towards monthly grade reset reward adds additional frustration to losing the match.
Most events you miss out on the already limited event BP if you aren't on a gen when it's finished. You could be in the match for what would be multiple gens finishing while killer is focused on tunneling you out but you're getting 0 event BP. If there's event rewards that you can only earn if alive for end game you're not getting those if killer tunnels you out before that last gen pops. Just unnecessary frustration added to a losing match.
It's a 7 year old game with a single game mode and SBMM that is based on kills/escapes and not how you get those kills/escapes. Tunneling isn't fun for the survivor but I wouldn't say it's unfair, more so it's an easy tactic with a high reward so it'd be nice if it was made bit harder to match the high reward.
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Survivors tunnels gens... Killers tunnels survivors...
Yeah, I think it's fair.
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Against an efficient team, you still have a chance of getting out vs a tunneling killer. If not, they get a 1-2k max. Against bad solos, obviously it increases their chances of winning, and I don't know which possibility is worse: the fact that the killer would have beat y'all without anyway, or the fact that them going for chases is what would have let a bad team like y'all beat them.
But listen. Y'all say you want to go for chases with the killer, but every time killer finds a strategy to win without tunneling, like Box Pinhead, Thana/Pentimento, Eruption, condemned Sadako, etc, y'all say, "That's too strong!" and get it nerfed, which is what forces the killers to resort to tunneling. The killer shouldn't have to provide you fun to be "balanced"; you should be having fun trying to escape and sometimes succeeding. If you kill tunneling like we did camping, hey, what else is there? You want to be slugged all the time just so the killer can win? And if base Unbreakable comes out, what then? Just Nurse and Blight again until they get nerfed? Killers are running out of options, and that's gonna cause what's left of that playerbase to leave the game or permanently switch to survivor.
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Yh it's maddeningly annoying when you get hard tunneled right at the start. Like woo, 5k bp, such a fun interactive game.
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Going "lala I can't hear you" doesn't make a conversation end, but I do understand you weren't engaging in good faith to begin with. I didn't DM you, I am publicly posting a reply so people understand what the things I say are in reference to. It is for everyone else's sake, as well as yours should you choose to continue as you did here. If you reply to me, I reply back if there are things to add. If there is nothing to add I won't.
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It doesn't occur in 100% of matches, but it does happen often enough that certain perks become mandatory. I think that UB should be basekit, but for the activation condition to require two slugged survivors to be in close proximity to each other. Slugging doesn't happen often enough to run UB, but when it does happen, it's done excessively which only exacerbates how unfun it is to be nearly bled out before the killer finally decides to hook you.
Camping is finally being addressed after years, and rightfully so, because the person sitting on the hook getting hit repeatedly by the killer isn't having fun. They don't feel better because their team made it out due to them being camped. They just lose motivation to play.
Tunneling occurs frequently enough that survivors have to run OTR, but even that isn't enough to deter killers. They tunnel through the endurance anyway, which is why more needs to be done to address it. The solution cannot be to pigeonhole people into specific builds, and then complain that those builds are meta. You reap what you sow. Consequences and all that jazz.
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Okay, were making progress, were finally agreeing that "slugging" isn't as prevalant as survivors claim it to be.
If tunneling occured "frequently enough" that survivors HAD to run OTR I'd assume that it would ATLEAST make it to top 10 most used perks in the OFFICIAL BHVR stats. Because unlike MFT, OTR has been out for the entire time the official stats kept track of.
infact the perks you see on the official stats are mostly chase perks and gen slam perks.
Much like you've said, you reap what you sow, when survivor meta revolves around making chases extremely painful because of MFT+Resi or the old meta with DH killers will be FORCED to try any other strat besides chasing.
Again let killers reap what they sow, they want to stare at a hook for 2 minutes? pop your gens and leave. killer gets 1k, but learns that camping isn't worth it for future matches.
Change your perks and strategy if you really consider "tunneling, slugging and camping" to be that prevalent
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It's not unfair, it's part of the game and probably one of the reasons the killrate for killers being 60% (and maybe if more people played this way it would be higher).
This is the meta at the moment, I don't think the problem is the strategy so much as survivors can counter it/use it to the advantage. The problems are:
1) tryhards vs casuals (so a killer playing as sweaty as possible isn't gonna be fun to go against for survivors who find fun in flashlight saves etc.)
2) killer being able to deduce who is a beginner and tunneling them out.
3) killer being able to bypass the survivor who wishes to be chased/tunneled out.
4) counterplay to tunneling requiring co-ordination and communication being impossible for solo players or requiring info perks for them.
5) counterplay requiring specific perks. (used to be DS etc.)
6) good matchmaking so the game doesn't put 10 hour Claudettes in a lobby with a collecting 2k hours or something.
7) not knowing the killer you are facing.
That's why this strategy (as well as camping and maybe even 3-genning) is the bane of most survivors cause the effort needed to counterplay it or take advantage of it is massive for solo-ers compared to the killer employing this strategy (and certain killers excel at those strategies, see Wesker for tunneling, Bubba for camping, Skull Merchant for 3-genning, Sadako for slugging etc.).
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Tunneling at 5 gens happens when the Killer doesn’t know what to expect and assumes the worst. Gen timers fluctuate too much when tool boxes, gen perks, survivors grouping up on gens are thrown into the mix. Survivors even in Solo Queue will have a rough idea of how long it will take before all gens are powered based on the UI, but the Killer does not unless they physically check on a gen.
For anyone who has played Killer enough, there have probably been a few games where you thought you still had time and could play chill before 2 gens pop in succession in the next 10 seconds.
Killers have to rely on a mental clock of how long they should be doing something like patrolling gens or chasing Survivors and that clock gets thrown off sync when gen speed boosting effects are added. Tunneling saves the time of finding a fresh chase and the payoff for getting that Survivor out of the game is huge.
Maybe Killers could get basekit Tinkerer minus the Undetectable effect so they would have a better idea of how much time they have before all gens pop, this would also tell them if they have the time to go for a fresh chase or to stay and tunnel. I think it’s silly how Survivors have so much information handed to them, but Killers can’t even get something as simple as individual hook states UI let alone a warning if they were going to lose 3 gens by the end of the first chase.
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When I have encountered some players like that, I was lucky enough to have them answer my questions as to why were they playing like that.. Most have refused to answer, and instead took their leave, though.
Apparently, it's fun. Camping and tunneling is fun.. 🤷
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Depends on the situation
Had a game where 3 gens popped in like 3 min I was playing deathslinger so I waited a few sec and speared her re hook if 3 gen can pop a min then people should be able to die in a min
But there's times where this isint needed
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its fine. im starting to like it more. whats not to love about being chased alot? isn't that the most fun a survivor can have? or are holding m1 on gens more fun lol.
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This is assuming that an increase in MMR is desirable.
Increased MMR isn't necessarily synonymous with "winning". It's synonymous with killing.
If you want to play for hooks over kills, then you can still do so, and your MMR won't increase as much, and you'll face opponents against whom this win condition will be more applicable.
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