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Can we admit pallets are a problem?
More specifically the absurd amount of them on each map?
here’s some recent footage from myself.
I wasn’t playing terribly, there’s just only so much you can do when survivors have safe pallet next to safe pallet, next to Jungle gym, next to Shack.
It’d be one thing if maps had 10-12 pallets or so. As killer you’re still kicking pallets but at least there’s a light at the end of the tunnel. And for survivors, it’d force them play smarter and really think and prioritize when and where they wanna drop a pallet.
A competent survivor can run a killer around a decent pallet/loop for god knows how long before he either gives up and break chase, or gives up and eats the stun. Only a handful of killer truly have options for pallets but I ask; “why do I need to stop playing a character I actually like and resonate with just to win?”
forget perk and killer reworks, just go through the maps and legitimately shave down the number of excess and unnecessary pallet placements. This would be a legitimately good fix for BOTH sides. More killers playing and playing killers other then 5 meta and survivors get forced to loop better and more efficiently.
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you think that’s bad look at the game. I get flash banged every time I bring windows by the absurd amount of pallets. And the 4 windows on the map are just like
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Lmao I know. I hate the game with a passion and I have to force myself not to DC as soon as I load in as killer.
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Some people would not survive in old DBD.
Other than Borgo and Garden of Pain, I've generally found maps to have too few pallets more often than too many.
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“Ironic that’s it’s called garden of joy, because joy is probably the last thing killers feel when they load into this map”-Demi plays, 2023
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I didn’t start playing until 2020 so I dunno what this is but I assume it was awful and everyone complained about.
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/home/leaving?allowTrusted=1&target=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyD4YGGgH578%26pp%3DygUkRGVtaSB0aGVzZSBtYXBzIGFyZSBlYWxpc2x5IGFudXNhYmxl here’s a video by Demi that shows how easily these 4 maps are to abuse.
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That's just RNG for you. Sometimes you get handful, sometimes it's a truckload, and there's no way to plan for it (other then The Game, which always has an absurd number of them).
One of the many reasons DBD is so imbalanced (and umbalancable).
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I mean, they could make the RNG range smaller so instead of 10-25 it's like 10-15 or something.
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As someone who's played since Clown was released, yes maps still generally have too many pallets imo.
Just because they had more before doesn't mean it's not still too much now.
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8-10 pallets was likely too conservative.
10-14 pallets with half being bad is still easy to deal with as killer.
Post edited by Pulsar on11 -
8-10? Really?
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But if every map doesn’t have two dozen god pallets, how will survivors run killers for 5 gens while teabagging the whole time?
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You complain about safe pallets, but you broke unsafe pallets mindlessly, like at 3:31 or 4:08. You could have got a hit by mind-gaming or bloodlusting these tiles.
At 4:02 Cheryl drops the most unsafe pallet on this map, and you could easily have got a down, but you drop chase for no reason. Why..?
At 4:59 you would have likely hit the survivor by doubling back, that way he wouldn't get the vault in the correct direction.
Last but not least, you were playing without add-ons which is a crucial problem. Bubba is not a bad killer normally, but he relies on his add-ons more than other killers, particularly the Chillis. Without Chilli the chainsaw is useless in chase as you don't gain enough distance to compensate for the charge time, so you are basically playing a M1 killer but super tall and easy to track through tiles. And you probably realized it too, as you almost did not use your power in chase, only when catching survivors in the open.
In short, you are literally playing the WORST killer in the game, on one of the WORST maps, against survivors who are clearly better than you, so this is one of the WORST possible situation... and you still got one kill. If the game was "fixed" so that you would win this match, then killers would basically win every match.
You should watch good Bubba players and compare with your gameplay.
Here's an example:
Notice how different they play compared to you:
1) they use Chilli (which comes clutch several times eg. at 4:20)
2) they use their chainsaw all the time, including in chase against injured survivors (eg. at 5:10)
3) they mindgame a lot. (eg. at 6:06)
If you don't like looping, you have dozens of options to choose from. Nurse will ignore pallets. Huntress and Deeathslinger are ranged. Knight literally does the chase for you. But if you don't like breaking pallets just don't pick Bubba.
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that wasn't even that strong of a map lmao you just got juiced at basically every tile. Like i get that hiding light and looping tight are much harder on console but if you're not willing to at least try to do the basics of chases, you can't complain about the game being survivor sided
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LOL I wish there were at most 10 pallets on a map or ever just 8. I loaded into a few quick custom game with Zanshin on a few maps just to check.
On average there's 17 pallets on a map. Saying "8-10" is some strong survivor copium/bias. It's roughly double that. That's not even including maps like Cowshed, The Game, RPD, Garden of Pain, or Borgo.
Numbers for those who care:
- Ormond - 18
- Suffocation Pit - 14
- Wreckers yard - 13
- Badham - 18
- Lampkin - 13
- Midwitch - 25
- Gas Haven - 14
- Chapel - 16
- Dead Dawg - 16
- Eyrie - 15
- Temple - 19
- Ironworks - 24
- Sanctum - 12
- Residence - 13
- Ward - 20
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Your suggestion would break game.
Bubba will be better. Sure. M1 killers will be better. Sure.
But what about Blight, Nurse, Spirit, Wesker and other high tier killers?
What about killers which forces survivor pre-drop because their anti-loop powers (Clown, Pyramid Head, Nemmy, Artist, Doctor).
Changing game for some killers would break others. There is no solution.
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Just one killer needs a perk called "Smash".
As you walk past a pallet that is up you smash it, thus destroying it. Would need a CD and such for balance, but I've always thought it was weird that I walk past pallets early on and see them and can't break them, knowing they will be used against me later.
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Yeah, I'd say about that many on average. RNG is a cruel beast at times.
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did you see the post above that had none of them with less than 12?
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A lot of the maps you listed have pallets that are fair for every killer or utter garbage, notably Dead Dawg and Midwich. With the exception of Disturbed Ward, Badham, Temple, the average number on pallets on the rest of these maps are unproblematic.
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I just wanted to say I would love to see some video evidence of these so call maps that have 8-10 pallets on them that Pulars boldly claimed. I don't think I have ever seen a map in this game spawn that little amount of pallets.
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this
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The maps were picked at random. I don't think having 17 pallets on average is "unproblematic", as that's not even including windows. Some maps are over 20.
I also disagree that they're mostly "fair or utter garbage" especially for M1 killers but we can just agree to disagree there. The main point was the number of pallets.
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I'm going to check because some of these are far too high.
And, even if it is true, the quality of pallets matters. Admittedly though, that'd make my 8-10 claim incorrect.
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The question becomes are the pallets a problem or is playing m1 killers the problem?
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Which maps are that? Honestly curious because I can barely think of any. The only map that I can think of that has too few pallets now is Rancid Arbattoir. Most maps have pretty decent pallets overall.
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You probably forgot that most maps have a few pallets like this:
So yeah most maps have way more than 8-10 but that's not saying much since several are too unsafe to be practical or are located in a corner of the map. In fact, based on the list Midwich is supposedly the map with the most pallets (25), And yet ask anybody to enumerate them, they would probably struggle to name more than ~15.
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I can give a detailed review of the gameplay if you want. Long story short: use your power more. You have so many instances where you have an easy down with your saw or chance to force the pallet down and break it with your saw, but you're playing Bubba as an M1 killer with the saw as an afterthought. It seems like you don't have a feel for tile layout for zoning yet. That will come with experience.
There are maps where the safe tile count is too high and the spacing is too compact. But I don't think that's your main issue at this point.
For instance, at 4:35, you manually kick the pallet with Nic Cage towards the inside of the map which gives him main building. You didn't get stunned. Why not use your saw, force him around again, and break it with the saw with Cage towards the outside of the map? He has nowhere to go if you do that. It's a free down.
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They could solve a lot of problems with seemingly simple fixes, but I have no confidence they will.
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I wondered why he wasn’t using add-ons or even his chainsaw (in chase). Like how are you playing Bubba and not doing that?
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I mean, a map with a lot of really bad pallets doesn't necessarily make it OK.
However, Suffocation Pit, Wrecker's, ARP, Sanctum and Shop are all at the forefront of my mind for low pallet counts.
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It's teachable stuff, and I feel like a lot of the killers on the forum fall into this category. It's not just OP. This is typical 100-500 hour killer gameplay. It just looks weird to vets because we have thousands of hours.
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- I agree with you at 3:31,
- Against leatherface a properly played pallet gym is safe until he bloodlusts and if you are bloodlusting loops, you are losing.
- 4:02 , ######### are you smoking? The fun bus is by far the safest structure in the entire game, minus maybe the window in garden of joy.
- 4:59, maybe.
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Does it also feel like the maps in general have gotten larger? Crows had to be reworked since it was too vast and many of the new maps since then have seemed larger than the rest (except maybe the singularity map but tbh I don't get that one much) and that is also contributing to pallet number? More space I guess means more pallet spawns
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Ngl I skimmed through the video and I confused the bus tile, I thought it was the new one with 2 separate buses and no window. I thought the old one was gone, but apparently it can still spawn?
Regardless, yes it's a much safer tile with the window but there are things you can try, at the very least he could have broken the pallet.
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There is literally 0 things you can try as leatherface. Maybe if you are a nurse/blight/spirit, but as usual, those killers shouldn't be mentioned when talking about game balance as it relates to loops/pallets/general survivor gameplay. Because they don't play the same game, and need to be changed at a different level.
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Yes you could break the pallet at least. Maybe you have 0 chance against comp survivors, but he's not playing against those, just look at the video, Cheryl wasn't even using the window, she tried to vault the pallet. He could mindgame the pallet here.
And if we assume comp level of play then it's also fair to assume a comp Bubba also have Bamboozle and could break the loop anyway.
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Some comp Bubbas are absolutely psycho.
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Yes. There's a **** pallet on RPD that I hate. It's useless. Please get rid of it.
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And there it is, you hit the nail right on the head, comp players. Show me a single game of a bubba winning against a team like eternal.
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current amount of pallets is just not balanced with windows perk in mind. when it gets nerfed in next patches it will be fine
garden of joy and game do have a lot of pallets especially game. thats why I always 3 gen garden of joy, the only way to turn that horrible map into something winnable
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There are about 5 pallets that you need to kick/break in order to get a hit on average. The vast majority of pallets can be mindgamed or bloodlusted for a hit. You can also use power to hit greedy Survivors at many of those unsafe loops.
There were also a lot of misplays. For example the giga respect at ~2m into pushing the Survivor back to a loop they were juicing you at before. You could have not respected the pallet and got a hit, or if he stunned you then he ends up running the same way he ended up going regardless. At ~4m40s, you break the pallet on the wrong side. If you need to break a pallet, break it in a manner that doesn't give the Survivor the map to run towards. If you broke the pallet on the other side, the Survivor is cornered against the edge of the map. Also after you go main you give him the window. You can see the window (both at the start when Carlos used it to Lithe, and) at ~4m52s. If you chase the middle clockwise, he doesn't get a free window vault. Also when you plan on respecting a pallet, it is far better to pre-rev the saw, if you respect you get an instant pallet destruction, if they greed, you get the down. This is just a case of "I lost, X is why", without looking in to see if it could have been played any better on your part.
God knows how long a Surv can loop, but so do we. Bloodlust takes 15s to kick in, so it should take at most 16-24s without something to burn the Bloodlust stacks.
The largest problem wasn't the pallets as much as it was windows for you. If they take out pallets, they would add more medium strength windows to counterbalance. Asking for less pallets will make your matches harder, not easier.
Personally I'd recommend checking the resources out linked in the description of this vid.
I mean to be fair, if there are 12 pallets on Sanctum, and there are 4 Survivors, you only get 3 pallets on average. Even then, on maps like Midwich, there are only like 3 pallets that aren't mindgameable, not even including bloodlust into the equation. Ever a more 'normal' map like Ironworks has 6 Killer Shack/Jungle Gym strong pallets, and typically only 1 long pallet that requires a kick if you approach from the bad side. All the other pallets are mindgameable or bloodlustable. But of course you personally get none if the baby Feng teammate pre-drops every pallet with abandon. So whether the person intended average pallets per Surv, or pallets that require a kick, either interpretation is still mostly correct.
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Why have 1 pallet when you can have 2?
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This thread was not made by a comp player tho. It was made by an average player playing against average survivors. In fact, even "average" is questionable, as Yui and Jake were complete babies (downed after 10 sec). Out of the remaining two survivors, one knew how to loop but did some mistakes (the Cheryl) and one was looping well (the Nick).
Guess what, out of these 4 survivors, the one OP decided to commit on for the full match was the Nick, the one who knew how to loop.
On top of that, he played addonless, with a difficult killer, on one of the worst maps, and decided to play Mr. Nice (no tunneling/camping even in endgame).
Map RNG is such a non-issue in this gameplay I find it very troubling so many people think it proves a point.
I don't disagree with you about Bubba being hell in pro matches, but you're talking about 0.001% of the playerbase (literally - you didn't even say "Show me a bubba winning against pros" you said "show me a Bubba winning against Eternal").
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tbf, there are WAY WAY too many dog maps but wretched shop isn't one of them. i'd even say it's a weak one (killer sided). even though we need more bubba players in the game, i'm going to suggest trying a stronger killer.
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Here's a Bubba getting a 2k against Oracle. Won them the set.
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now we know why a zombie apocalipse was needed. too many pallets and not enough zombies to drop them on
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you broke 6 pallets the entire match and got bloodlust on almost every single chase. the video is reddit killer type post.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on6 -
A 2k is not a win.
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Few questions for you.
- Do you think this game is balanced at the highest level play without requiring rules that limit perks, or addons/items or other kinds of point systems, but simply a kills vs escapes standpoint?
- Do you think this game should be balanced around top level players, or average skilled players?
- Do you think nurse needs a nerf?
- Do you think 1k win streaks are fine?
- Do you think this game is a "party game"?
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