are the developers going to do something with the generators?

They should make at least the minimum time a gen can be done higher, indeed. Starting with the base progression two or more survivors can do in a gen.

It's not logical that with just 2 survivors they can shave off 38 seconds from a gen. With 3, 48 seconds. With 4, 50 seconds. And this without counting great skill checks, perks, toolboxes, brand new parts, etc.

It should be changed so with 2 survivors doing a gen they could only take away 20 seconds approx from the gen, and then maybe escalate it so it still maintain the 50 seconds with 4 to compensate only "pressuring" one gen.

In my opinion they should add a mechanic, that prevents survivors from rushing the gens in under 4 minutes. This is only achieved by people, who focus solely on rushing gens anyway and it would already help a bit. It wouldn't hurt any of the more casual players, while helping with the absolute extremes.

Well, either that or the long requested and frankly overdue early game help that especially low tier killers need. But that is not going to happen as it was apparently deemed unfun.

They should remove gen regression and gen speed, I don't use any gen regression as oni and it helps until you realize even with quick downs it doesn't help with the speed gens take. So no gen regression, no speed buff and slightly higher repair time

I moved past the exception because it is just that, an exception. When survivors bring those tools and spawn on four separate generators at the start, yes, gens do fly and you don't have much control over it. I would support actions taken to address both parts of that situation; survivor spawns, and gen speed tools, mostly just toolboxes.

However, as I said, that is not every match. Even matches where more than one survivor just has a generally good toolbox but aren't coordinated enough to be on separate gens from the start aren't anywhere near that damaging for you as a killer, even if the toolboxes are still too strong. Implying or stating that is the case in the average match would be wrong and deceptive.

Gen speeds are in your control (to a degree) as killer because you have the ability to spread your pressure. I've made this point on the forums before, but I'll raise it again: The more survivors you have occupied, the fewer can be on generators. One hooked, one in chase, one going for the save cuts the generator efficiency down by 75% if everyone's alive. That's a massive reduction in generator speeds for as long as you maintain that situation, which if you're both good in chase and good at macro strategy, is pretty frequently. That's where skill comes in.

Gen times don't need to be touched. They especially should not make grouping up on a generator even worse, because that would incentivise spreading out, which is so much harder to deal with as killer. If two survivors are on a generator, congrats, you've occupied two survivors when you go there, not just one. What needs to be touched is a combination of spawns (to stop outlier situations where all four survivors are spread out) and toolboxes (because they're really the glue that holds actual genrushing builds together, everything else is dramatically less useful without a toolbox).

It's important to mention the skill component because otherwise people might end up not realising where they're going wrong, and blame the game for it. In a majority of your matches, unless you're unlucky enough to be running into Team Eternal frequently, your skill affects gen speeds. In a majority of matches, you will be the deciding factor in how efficient the survivors can be, because a majority of matches aren't against ultra-coordinated 4-man groups.

Everyone I play against knows:

Separate gens is win.

Multi people on gen at end only.

They could be Team Potato and they get this.

Even so, if I wanted to beat up on disorganized drunken individuals, I have a local bar for that.

Here, I want to deal with the most challenging things the game has to offer. And maybe in that match, gen times need some examination.

I honestly think the game is in a good place right now balance wise. When you can notice your team throwing by not doing generator as a Survivor you know that the balance has shifted compared to years ago. They're slowly ironing out the broken stuff that they have a decent base at the moment. They would just have the tinker with other mechanics but I don't think touching generator speed is the right move at best should be tool boxes.

Again, without any toolbox, without any perk, without doing great skillchecks, just two survivors doing a gen, they would do it in 52.94 seconds approx. This is the true problem.

This is not a problem. Perks might be a problem, toolboxes might be a problem, but this isn't.

At the start of the match, survivors doing the same gen, unless they are breaking up the 3 gen, is usually a weakness. If those two survivors did two gens together, it would take ~106 seconds, it would take 90 seconds if they'd just gotten on different gens. And by being on the same gen the killer can disrupt both survivors at the same time.

Your conception of the issue is off. This is like when CoH was nerfed because killers didn't like that survivors could heal on their own, but they didn't take account of the fact that some survivors would run all the way across a map to heal themselves when they should have stayed on gens. If they penalized multiple survivors working on gens even more, survivors would just spread out which would actually make it even harder for killers.

 If a survivor decide to take you to a tour around every single pallet on the map

Pallets are a limited resource. If at the start of the game the first survivor runs the whole map and burns a ton of pallets and 3 gens pop, its not a great start, but the killer is by no means out of the game at this point. The survivor chases should now be much shorter and you have even fewer gens to worry about.

On the other hand, if we're talking balance, if the killer gets a strong start and downs a survivor before a single gen is even done, he's at such a massive advantage that it should be a surprise if he loses.

As others have said, the first few gens that pop aren't really relevant given it becomes increasingly harder for survivors to finish a gen.

None of those things are true. You can play any killer you like and do well (with maybe the exception of Trapper, where it's a bit more up to luck), playing 4 slowdowns is honestly kind of a bad idea if they don't synergise with each other, and you only have to dedicate a perk to a better early game if you struggle with the early game. Personally, I never take Lethal Pursuer off (excepting for gimmick builds), but that's just my preference; you don't need it. I also want to mention that one of my suggestions there was for perks that would be useful throughout the entire match, so it's not just reacting to a poor early game; perks like Discordance help early on and once the match has gotten into the swing of things, for example.

Basekit Corrupt isn't an idea I'd consider tremendously terrible for the game, but I would consider it kind of a clumsy bandaid. It'd be better to tackle the problem at its source- stop survivors from spawning all spread out from one another, and nerf toolboxes. That would give killer players much more consistent early games, and stop dedicated genrushing teams from snowballing well ahead of where most killers can keep up.

"It is not relevant to my point" It is relevant, because you are making a point against gen times. You wanting to use mental gymnastics to turn around the argument to "your point" is what is not relevant here. It's like a restaurant having awful food, and the chef saying "well, people can put sauces on top of it and mix various things so it is not that bad, also most of the time our food is fine depending on who cook it". Alright, but the possibility of the food being awful is still a base problem, and we should address it. In other words, you keep trying to derail the main argument to your point while yet again ignoring the base problem.

And I know what you are saying, and my answer to that is you are so wrong. It is present in every single match because it is the minimum the generator mechanic allow survivors to do, so it doesn't matter if they just shaves off 50 seconds instead of 60, they should not be able to shave off that much time in the first place. Spawn, toolboxes and progression perks are just symptoms of the disease, and solving the base problem would solve the rest. But you don't have to believe me, let's do the math:

• One survivor with Commodious Toolbox:

• Two survivors, one of them with Commodious Toolbox:

• Two survivors, both of them with Commodious Toolbox:

In conclusion:

• One survivor with the toolbox would only shave up 10 seconds from a gen.
• Two survivors, just one with a toolbox, would shave up only 6 seconds more than not having the toolbox at all.
• Two survivors, both with a toolbox, is slightly more effective than having 3 survivors doing the gen without any toolbox, and only 5 seconds more effective than only using one.

Now, with the numbers in place it is more than obvious than the toolboxes are not the main problem, as you would need two survivors with the best toolbox in the same gen at the same time and apply the full toolbox to that gen to be worth it, and doing that would left the toolboxes empty, so they would have waste them and aren't able to do it in another gen. And as you want to strictly argument about "realistic averages", this situation won't happen in random games unless at least two survivors are in SWF and decide to do it.

So, the problem are not the toolboxes adding too much to the base progression, the problem is not two or more survivors spawning in one generator, the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by default before adding other progression bonus on top. And taking in count that both toolboxes and progression perk works in a percentage basis, solving this big problem by lowering the progression multiplayer when two or more survivors are in a gen you would also solve every single smaller problem related to it. Easy, and simple.

Now, the big question: Are you going to admit you were wrong, or are you going to keep ignoring it and trying to make the argument about other points?

They already nerfed prove thyself and BNP because that was 'the most egregious thing ever' before the nerfs.

Survivors grouping up to work on gens is the best thing a killer can want. It means you can interrupt and pressure *multiple survivors* at once, and it's still the *least efficient* way for survivors to do gens. It's always, *always* more efficient for survivors to split up, including some cases where there's only one gen remaining. And that was true even with the old, pre nerf prove thyself. It's even more true now.

The only reason killers are upset (this time) is 100% due to not playing well. Especially in the current build of the game, if you don't know where survivors are and aren't running at least one information perk, then you're just blindly wandering the map while survivors do gens for free.

If you aren't pressuring the right places on the map, or don't even know where they are, that's completely on you.

This is 100% a case of 'I've tried nothing and I'm out of ideas'

I keep hearing this, but people that say it seems to forget that a killer can only chase one of you, letting the other one free to keep repairing the gen. And if he decides to stay on the gen to defend it for a while, all of you have free time to progress other gens.

Seriously, I don't know who said that is is more effective having one person in three gens than at least 2 people in one gen, but obviously didn't do the math.

And again shielding in the extremes. There is no extreme required to do a gen in 40 to 60 seconds less as you only need two survivors and some perks and items. The point is not that some hardcore speedrunners can do all gens in 2:40 minutes, but the simple fact that survivors have the capacity to do the gens as fast as that. I think it is not hard to understand.

Alright, read my other post with the math to see what happens in an average game with progression, then:

And when you see the math, then tell me how the problem here is not the base progression of two survivors, something happening and present in all games, and it is only a problem in the extremes.

You all keep saying this, and talking about "realistic averages", but all of you seems to forget that usually, a survivor just don't stand still so you can hook him so you are at all moments in the 1/1/1/1 situation, specially at the start of the game. There are survivors that are good at not get caught in chases, there are perks that prevents you to find your next survivor if they are hiding well, there are perks that allow survivors to not even have to be good at not getting caught or hiding and just press W and predrop pallets so you have to waste time brute forcing the hit or just brake it and give him the chance to get to the next loop. There is a ton of things that could make you not be in the wonder situation of 1/1/1/1 for most of the game. And every second you spent out of that moment, is less time to be able to get it.

In other words, for people that talks about realistic averages and use them to argue, you all seems to make points assuming a killer would be able to always get and maintain that perfect situation at all times when is something that needs so many factors out of your control to favor you that when you get it is almost by chance.

No,do gen not fun .

It's killer should do better.

We already got a nerf in this year, should not got another one.

"I keep hearing this" - If 1 is free to repair the gen, they are also free for the Killer to drop chase and take the free hit on them. Chasing 2 people lets you choose the person in the worse spot also. The person who runs to the Shack Window blocks that so the other person has to go out by Shack Pallet, as opposed to a solo Survivor always being free to take the better of the two.

"And again shielding in the extremes" - Yes, you are shielding a bad faith argument in the extreme case that all gens pop in 2m total, when that is closer to the 4k speedrun than the escape speedrun (which Survivors was ~3m). If you have 1 gen popping in 40s with 3 people, or 1 gen popping in 60s with 2 people, that still shows it would be better for them to split and complete 3 in 90s as opposed to 3 in ~165 with trioing gens, or 3 in ~100s with a duo and a solo, and that is assuming travel time between gens doesn't even exist (which would tip the balance even further away from your camp).

"Read my other post" (Which was posted AFTER my reply) - First off the solo gen with an add-onless Commodious/Event toolbox should shave 16s, or a 74s total gen time. So I'm not sure how you came to your numbers. Secondly Regression exists alongside progression, and the mirror equivalent is pallets. Killers cannot regress or 'heal' a gen, but a Survivor cannot repair or 'heal' a broken pallet. Just as Any Means Necessary allows you to lift the unbroken pallet back up, Regression perks help slow down the progression of gens. However if the Survivor pops the gen or the Killer breaks the pallet, it is permanently gone. Finally a Toolbox is a multiplier to increase gen speed (by 50%), and co-op is a multiplier to reduce gen speed (by 15% per person). I can't fathom the argument that people doing the slower option is too fast. The duo Commodious gen followed up by a duo gen takes ~90s (total), compared to the 2 solo commodious gens getting done in 74s (total). The gen times are already longer to group up than solo, so that clearly isn't the problem. The only time this is a problem is if Killers are camping gens, and never leveraging pressure. That would be a failing on the Killer's part to learn how to play the game, and that could only be from someone who had the broken CoB+OC+Eruption as their only method of winning, not any skill whatsoever.

"You all keep saying this, .../'realistic averages' " - (the three paragraphs below)

Partially true, yes. There are roughly 3 phases of the game, early/mid/end. Early game is basically before the first hook(or kill in the edge cases of Onryo/Tombstone Myers), mid game which typically roughly functions along the 1/1/1/1 paradigm, and endgame where gens are done. Even in the absurd case of an AFK Killer and the Survivors teleporting to gens and gates, that still takes the first 4 gens solo'd at 90s, the 5th gen quad pumped in ~41s, the gates opened in 20s, totalling a ~151s or 2m 30s permanent early game. Meanwhile if the Killer is actually playing the game, the 1/1/1/1 concept is in play more than 2m30s, even when the Killer is ineffective.

In addition, 1(Hook/be healed/be slugged)/1(Chase)/1(Unhook/healing)/1(pump gens) isn't the perfect scenario, it is merely the normal scenario. An even better scenario is 2/1/1/0 or 2/0/2/0, or 3/1/0/0, or 3/0/1/0, or you've won at 4/0/0/0. Killers call 1/1/1/1 the normal scenario because they utilize their M1 skill, their power, their meta knowledge of the map or Survivor playstyles in order to shorten chase+hook times to be faster than the unhook+heal times. Then you run into a better Survivor taking longer, then a worse one taking shorter, but you ultimately hover around that normal case 1/1/1/1. If that isn't the normal case in anyone's matches, I suggest checking out some more guides or practicing power at odd spots. You don't know if you can land the Huntress hatchet until you try, so always attempt new shots. In the short run you likely will lose a couple of matches being forced to reload early because you wanted to test a high wall, but then in other matches you will get downs all the faster, because you won't attempt it at that same spot that didn't work, and use it in the new spot you learned that does work. Learn to lose (take risky power usages), lose to learn (find good and bad spots), lose (now) to win (more later). Even things like Ghostface cloaked redstain or crouch mindgames at loops are things to try, not only ranged characters risky shots.

Also, holding W and predropping essentially means 20s per hit, as the Killer can walk around a predropped pallet. Nothing stops the Killer from Bruteforcing Bloodlust back, which kicks in at 15s. So that means even if they try to actually play a pallet, they are still going down. Also even if their perks allow them to hide easier, or delay chase, that just means Killer Perks that do the same will shave this time down. STBFL cutting down the post-hit CD shortening the 20s to ~15s, or BBQ/Floods/Nowhere to Hide to reveal non Distortion users, and Ultimate Weapon to reveal non Calm Spirit users. Then on top of that you can run gen slowdown to buy extra time to burn through the pallets in a final war of attrition, and win by not even mindgaming or utilizing power.

-- Separate from the individual section replies above--

All of this assumes the Killer brings skill and an actual loadout, just alongside the Survivors bringing skill and an actual loadout. Not the sweatiest loadout possible, but normal/average scenarios. If the Survivors brought far more skill and/or tools to the table (like a giga toolbox on all of them), then the Killer is mostly going to lose. Similarly if the Killer brings far more skill and/or tools (like C33+Alch Ring Blight), they too will mostly win and the Survivors will mostly lose. If the Killer suffered from Eruption Inflation or facecamping Bubba and that artificially raised their MMR with kills from tools and not skill, then they are going to need to lose, in order to lower their MMR back down to Survivors of their actual skill range, since they can no longer abuse the tools that gave artificial wins. This can be true in the opposite case as well, with juicy toolboxes or old CoH or MfT artificially inflating Survivor MMR, and losing the matches without them.

Right, I think I see where I'm failing to communicate here.

It's not that splitting up is "the smart and fast" thing to do. It's that grouping up is slow and inefficient. Generators are done slower if survivors group up. This is an undeniable fact, the only way you can think generators get done faster when survivors group up is if you only look at how long it takes to do a single generator rather than all five.

There's really not much more to it than that. Grouping up is both slower and riskier, and so therefore it is more favourable to the killer than the alternative. Generators do not fly when survivors group up, because they are done slower. I'm not making the argument that if you want the highest chances of escaping you shouldn't group up, I'm saying grouping up lowers your chances of escaping (in most contexts, with exceptions, naturally).

That's why my initial post is still correct, because if survivors are grouping up on generators, the killer has a lot of agency to react to that with their skill and macro strategy.