are the developers going to do something with the generators?
Comments
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Yes exactly, a mini 30 seconds corrupt should be basekit to stop survivors with toolboxes and PT completing gens before you can even cross the map.
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Coincidentally the speedrun site you posted also has soloQ survivors banging out gens in 4-6 minutes , hard to claim everything is an extreme when it happens so frequently without even needing basic SWF coordination.
The 1 hooked 1 chase 1 savior 1 gen cranker scenario would work if "while injured" perks and medkits didn't exist, survivors just take the free 9% gen speed boost from resi and crank out the gen instead of wasting 16s healing, or toolboxes essentially negating the timewaste from the heal because commodius with charge and speed addons cranks out half a gen + in 15 seconds.
Point of the matter is, gens only take 90s in the worst possible case , there's so many ways for survivors to speed crank out a gen thanks to unhealthy perks and items that no matter what pressure killer tries to apply it essentially doesn't result in anything.
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Killer players my favorite marginal minority. Poor them, booting up the game to just suffer and feel constantly slapped in the face, spit on... Horrible horrible!
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More like Tbagged every single game, called baby if you lose and boring noob if you win, but yeah, that would be an accurate description of the day by day experience of a killer in this game. Horrible, indeed.
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"Shielding a bad faith argument with an extreme"... I stopped reading there.
Read this post and just like I said, if you still doesn't understand it's on you.
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Funny how that works. "Just bring Corrupt Intervention or Deadlock." is an acceptable answer. But when killers camp and say: "Just bring Reassurance or Kinship." that is an issue that must be fixed by the game itself without any perks. This is what you call double standard.
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I should not be needing gen regression perks or need to tunnel from the start to have a chance.
Tunneling is something I dispised since I started to play 5 years ago. I don't know what happened, but winning was a lot easier than it is today without being super effective.
Somehow I am more effective with Huntress and no slowdown than with my Main Wesker for some reason.
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yes, I didn't even think that the problem could be in the tools, thanks for reminding me. Indeed, if you look at it this way, in every game at least 1-2 survivors take them. the question is, why prepare every game as if it were a war? i'm not a fan of regression perks, i almost always take offerings for shared point bonuses (such as theromis) i don't have any bad feelings about survivors either. But I really don't understand what is the difference between 3gen, tunneling and such gameplay? Is it really that much fun to grab a springwood map, tools and get everything up and running quickly? is that what you expect from a game?
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By the way, has the bug with the tools already been fixed? If not, then maybe this is the case
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Choosing to not engage when proven wrong merely proves you further wrong. Thinking a normal match is too quick, when I was consistently winning Clown matches with the 80s gens, shows a fundamental lack of understanding in how to play Killer, whether that be in micro (chases) or macro (gens/pallets). Check guides as how to play Killer if the gen times are a legitimate issue for you. Alternatively purposely 8 hook for a week (without kills), and intentionally lower your MMR. After that, you should be able to play in less sweaty matches, win normally, then finally reach a good equilibrium of Survivors with your skill level.
The devil is in the details. Deadlock prevents multi-gen pops, so I would only consider that 'necessary' on Pig to space headtraps going red for greater pressure, or a dedicated facecamper build, but even then that is more QoL for Pig than truly necessary. Corrupt Intervention helps shore up a weak early game, which can be mitigated by playing the game on both sides and learning the spawn mechanics better, or hopping into bot matches with Lethal Pursuer for an hour and getting a 'feel' for the game. Once you have a general idea of where people will spawn and how, such as quad spawns, dual duo spawns, and split spawns, you can play accordingly and not 'need' Lethal/Corrupt anymore. I will admit I am a Lethal Pursuer addict, but I often run at least 1 other aura effect alongside it as well.
What is the counter for camping? Don't be hooked? Ok, are Survivors designed to never go down? No, Bloodlust exists, pallets are finite, the entity blocks windows after the 3rd vault, so Survivor is designed to eventually go down. Is it possible to do anything on hook? You can end the game sooner... So you are in a situation without agency. Agency is key, as you can always make a different play as Killer, but Survivor is balanced around moments of no agency before you are allowed to play the game again. Camping denies an end to the agency-less situation. Agency is the issue. I too hate genb4fren, but camping from the onset encourages that instead. The anti-facecamp gives some semblance of agency, but still won't prevent proxycamping choke points instead.
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Survivors get an anti camping mechanic with the next patch. You can test it on the PTB. It hits the exact wrong end of the tier list (weaker killers are affected more than stronger killers) but we'll see how it turns out.
It's also not that only Pig has a problem with multiple gens popping in rapid succession. This is a problem that all killers share. Admittedly, some less than others. But still, a killer will not be able to keep up with the pace of survivors that finish the game in 4 minutes. And if they can, you bet the survivors threw the game. This has nothing to do with the killer being inexperienced. Lethal Pursuer does not prevent the first 2 gens from getting finished before you can even hope to get a down with most killers.
After that first down, you would expect survivors to take some time to recover and the killer to get into a rhythm of hooking a survivor, traversing the map, chasing and hooking the next survivor. But that is not how it works. Consider a killer that takes exactly 45 seconds to get a down (BHVR's goal), 10 seconds to hook (including animations) and 5 seconds to get into the next chase (way faster than in reality). How many hooks can they get in these 4 minutes? 3. 4, if we're being generous. And we haven't even factored in what happens when a chase takes a bit longer than 45 seconds (which is extremely short for most killers), the killer takes the time to do something other than chasing (breaking pallets / breakable walls) or can't keep up this cycle.
But of course, the killer should be forced to run specific perks. That's why they are in the game. But survivors? No, they only have 16 perk slots (20, if we count base BT), so they can't use anti-camping perks. That is the double standard that I mentioned earlier. Either both sides have to use specific perks or suffer the consequences, or both can choose freely and get assisted by the game in case these situations occur.
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I really hope this is the only shape of oppression you get to experience in your life because what a happy life you must have. It's not a role thing, both roles BM each other, it's a player base mentality thing. Hope this helps you to stop feeling oppressed for playing one side or the other and you start looking at the problem as it being one concerning how the whole community behaves :)
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Feel like you're forgetting that during the 80s era, the meta at the time was DH-DS-UB-BT.
Chases didn't take an extra 20-30% longer because the survivor held shift W, or cranked out gens with Resi's completely unecessary 9% gen speed boost or the free permanent 6% shave thanks to deja vu aswell as a less developed/Veteran player base.
BNP's have been arguably BUFFED because they actively nerf the regression perks while permanently shaving off 10s of a gen.
Remember, 25% of 80 is not the same as 25% of 90.
All in all, arguments containing "well in a different meta killers could ...." are invalid.
Again speedrundotcom features solo survivors banging out gens in 4-6 minutes, which makes it hard to claim these are "extremes" when complete randoms without coordination can do it.
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So, the problem are not the toolboxes adding too much to the base progression, the problem is not two or more survivors spawning in one generator, the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by defaultYour post is the equivalent of saying 2+2=4, anyone who disagrees with me disagrees with math.
Yeah, those are the numbers, but your conclusion still doesn't make any sense. The survivors are still going slower working together then they would if they were split up.
Why is ~53 seconds somehow unreasonable to do a gen when it is taking two of the survivors time? They are losing roughly 8 seconds if they hadn't been split up.
Your argument is based on the presumption that anyone looking at the numbers would agree its a problem, but they're not. Survivors make a trade off by working together on a gen, less overall progress, easier to be interrupted, but increase the chance to finish it before a regression.
I keep hearing this, but people that say it seems to forget that a killer can only chase one of you, letting the other one free to keep repairing the gen.And if they were split up, one of those people never would have even needed to get off the gen.
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I disagree, cooperating on gens is not the issue, splitting up on gens is stronger. having a good reward for doubling up encourages grouping up. The compensation for only pressuring 1 gen is that you just drove 2 survivors off and are now pressuring them both at once.
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I think what you're still failing to get here is that the mathematical numbers you're referring to are what proves why you're wrong.
In fact, I think the clearest indication of why can be found in your post here, where you have to concoct a scenario where two survivors are completely uninterrupted while they repair two generators, all so they can achieve the incredible goal of doing those two generators... slower than if they'd split up.
Why would they be uninterrupted? What is the killer doing during this time? This is my point. If survivors have no super fast gen speed tools, and if they're grouping up on generators, your skill will affect how fast those generators fly, because you're right- if they're left to their own devices, it's not that hard to finish generators pretty quickly because there's no real skill component to repairing beyond not missing a pretty generous timing minigame now and again. Your job is to make sure that they aren't left to their own devices, and you do have time to do that.
You might pivot to saying that if they group up on their first generator the killer doesn't have time to interrupt it, and while I disagree with that, let's take it at face value for a moment. Okay, you lost one generator. The survivors have no other gen progression to speak of if they've grouped up (maybe a single other generator at somewhere around half if they went 2/2), so they still have four generators to repair, at default speed, while you're trying to stop them. That plus the exit gate time if it gets that far. I don't see how this is a problem for a killer that's actively trying to stop them.
I'm going to use your argumentative strategy for a second here; "They can shave 37 seconds off a gen..." It doesn't matter! How long it takes one generator to be finished isn't as important as how many generators are being repaired at once, and if they're grouped up, that means your worst case scenario is losing one generator before you've got a hook and the game begins in earnest. Even in this worst case scenario, if survivors keep trying to group up, you have so many opportunities to leverage that and generate pressure it's staggering. That's not even mentioning what happens when you do get there in time to interrupt it, because then generator repair completely grinds to a halt for a short while.
Again, I am not arguing that there is a strategy which is just better than grouping up. I am explaining why grouping up is a bad choice in most scenarios and why you as a killer should be happy to see survivors do it. I am explaining why grouping up will not lead to generators flying too fast for a killer to get a win unless that killer is AFK... or unless there's something about their build or gameplay that needs improving.
Grouping up and the progression numbers it leads to cannot be the root of all problems when it's not a good strategy to begin with. You've referred to gen speed tools working off a higher percentage, and that's true, but even in your post about an addonless toolbox (for some reason) you admit that the gen speed from one of the strongest single sources there is doesn't overcome the default inefficiency of grouping up on generators. It's when those strong tools are used on multiple generators at once that it starts to take away killer agency, and guess what; if they're nerfed, that means they'll be less useful on survivors grouping up, too.
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Would love to see a decreasing speed on gens.
So the first gens are taking long and the later gens are taking shorter.
ATM, at the beginn the survivors are very strong at the end the killer is strong. I think it would be cool if that smoothens out. For example The first gen takes 20sec later to get 100% as the last gen, the 2nd gen 15sec and so on
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Because they are two different things.
Survivors objective is to do gens, as killer you have multiple perks depending on your playstyle/strengths that can slow that down. Alternatively you have perks to help you find them faster, make it harder for them to recover, etc. But you are going to get value out of those perks regardless of how the survivors play.
There are three problems to the idea of fixing camping with perks. Survivors don't know the killer/killer strategy they are facing, a survivor doesn't have enough perk slots to deal with all of the possible 'you should have just brought X'. Secondly, survivors don't know what perks the other players are bringing, so you have no idea if you need to be the player with reassurance or not. Third, reassurance doesn't fix the core gameplay issue that being stuck on the hook for a long time isn't a fun game, it actually just makes it worse.
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I want you to think of this gif when you get upset about 15+ minute Survivor queue times.
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Choosing to use strawmans and ad hominems to engage is what really proves you wrong. I'm not even going to try to debate with you if you are going to simply ignore everything I say and paint my arguments as being "in bad faith", whatever you meant with that.
Again, I already gave an extended explanation of how and why base progression with two survivors is the real problem. If you keep not understanding it, it's your fault. And if you want to address the real points I made instead of yet again bringing specific situations, subjective experiences and various fallacies to the table here I am. Meanwhile, I'm not even going to try to read whatever you said.
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The queue times are already long and I think of that gif like once a day. I'm two steps ahead of you.
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And haven't you thought that perhaps what you are doing is precisely disagreeing with math? Just saying.
You can argue of the effects that changing that number could bring, but all of you are not doing that. Even by reducing the base progression multiplayer, it would still be more effective to split up or play however you think is the most efficient way. That is not an argument against it being so high that is the core of all the symptoms people in this post are saying are the real problem (spawn points, toolboxes, etc.).
No, the problem is not a toolbox granting a +50% progression bonus, the real problem is the progression of two survivors being 1.7 c/s to begin with. And I already did the math proving that.
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As conversations in here have gotten heated, I am stepping in with a reminder to keep the discussion civil, please. You can constructively & respectfully agree to disagree, without biting at one another. Thank you.
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Just like I said, the strategy you seem being the best and how you play the game has nothing to do with the mathematical fact that the base progression of two survivors in a gen is so high that is the core of all those other problems that you yourself have mention, like two survivors spawning near a gen or toolboxes and progression perks being so effective.
And even if they reduced the base progression multiplier for two survivors, it won't change that it would be better to split up for "insert reason". I don't know how it can be so hard to understand a simple and explained fact.
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That's what I'm trying to convey - two survivors on a gen cannot be the core of the problem when the problem is survivors splitting up. The core of the problem is that survivors with good gen speed bonuses all working on separate generators does far more damage to the killer's ability to pressure than survivors grouping up to do one generator faster.
Mathematically, the killer is worse off when survivors split up. I am not arguing from the survivor side here, I am arguing from the killer side; the fact that reducing the base progression multiplier wouldn't change anything is why I contest it. I don't want survivors encouraged to split up, because I would like the gen speed problem to be fixed, not made worse.
Your simple and explained fact is inaccurate. I understand it perfectly, and because I understand it, I know that it is wrong. You're only looking at how long it takes to do one generator, not how long it takes to do all five, which is the relevant number when we're talking about generator speed problems.
As simply as I can put it: Survivors grouping up do fewer generators at once, they do multiple generators slower, and they are far, far easier to interrupt and counter with regression. That is, mathematically, not a bad situation for the killer. Even the numbers you give support that, because the numbers you give add up to considerably slower than the alternative for all five generators.
The numbers you've been giving are lacking vital context for understanding how this game actually plays and where the problem scenarios are. It's not enough to look at a single generator's completion speed in a vacuum, you're going to come to inaccurate conclusions if that's the only thing you're taking into account.
To sum up, in as few words as possible (hard for me, I'm chronically wordy, so bear with me): Your job as a killer is to interrupt generator repairs to keep as many survivors occupied as possible. If survivors are grouped up, they may get more progress on one generator, but that is the ideal situation as killer because it means the regression you apply is more potent and there aren't more generators with progress lurking elsewhere on the map.
One generator popping during your first chase is nowhere near as troublesome as three generators popping just after your first hook.
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I saw multiple videos that showed "I wasn't camping but they got to Kobe!!!" when the Killer was flagrantly camping, and I saw multiple instances of camping without activating the mechanic as well, because like I said, proxy camping chokepoints isn't 'camping' according to the system.
Multiple gens popping in succession is a natural part of a poor early game. When I listened to an explanation back when by McLean while he was still working on DBD, he more or less described early game as the first 3 gens popping, mid game as the 1/1/1/1 concept other people use now, and endgame being a final chance for Killer to shore up gate and hook defense. One thing people don't seem to understand, is that it isn't over until its over. Also known as the 1HP concept. As long as you have 1 HP in a turn based game, you still get the same turn that you had at 9999HP. The gens remaining or HP doesn't matter until you are at 0/fight for your life/endgame, and might be able to claw out for a final kill or more. It is important to take those 3 gen pops in stride and keep fighting until you are out entirely.
As far as the cycle timing, I feel like this must be missing some context, like being a powerless M1 or something. Survivor greed always gives free hits, so even a powerless M1 Killer can capitalize on their mistakes to snowball a win.
I don't think anyone should be 'forced' to run any perk, but I recognize the use case for crutches. Windows is a crutch for poor map knowledge, or a QoL soloq 'did they drop the pallet here' perk. Regression is an adjustable difficulty slider that can be used in concert with Killer choice. Do you run 0/1/2/3/4? Do you run Wraith or Dredge or Blight? Each are the difficulty sliders for Killer. Also counting 16 perk slots for Survivor, when Survivor perks are of a different power level compared to Killer perks, is a bit of a joke. Especially when the Meta Survivor perks can easily be played around by not tunneling (OTR/DS), not slugging in excess of 20s (Unbreakable), and more.
So you mean the stronger (and usable) 5s DS, the stronger DH for distance, the same strength UB (arguably stronger with the combined threat of DS), and the now mostly basekitted BT? That was far more difficult for Killer to deal with than the current retinue. Stealth and mindgames and Bloodlust all deal with MfT far better than they ever could deal with DH. Heck, Deja Vu didn't even get buffed to a permanent 6% until much later after the 90s gens when OCoBruption (Overcharge+Call of Brine+Eruption) users forced the dev's hand. The degen 3gen kick meta was the only time Killer was stronger than now, although there could be an argument made for old Undying Ruin on Blight for like 1-2 months while that existed.
BNPs are only buffed if the Killer regresses a gen to the extreme. A BNP gave 3 charges/s extra for 5s (if you hit both skill checks), or +15 charges over a normal repair, and the new BNP gives a static 10 charges and reduces repeated regression. To make up that difference you basically need to regress 50 gen seconds, or 2 current Pop kicks on 99'd gens, or ~4 Pop kicks on half gens (that have the BNP applied to them). I'd say I get 2 Pop kicks on a singular gen at most, and usually it gets completed or I need to Pop a different gen instead.
While it is fair to say things have changed drastically, they have changed largely in the favor of Killer (with an extra perk slot being available due to basekit BT being the major Survivor aid, but even then Killers could just go for the rescuer and down them easily and not need to risk Anti-Tunnel effects). Anti-tunnel gutted, CoH gutted, BNPs nerfed in the majority of cases, medkits gutted beyond belief, and Killer lost Ruin.
The point of the speedrun comparison was the sweaty Hens SWF extreme could only hover around 3 minutes, but Killers extreme can hover around 2. Even if we used the Survivor escapes on the speedrun site (which is quite flawed with their ruleset for both Killer and Survivor), it still is double to triple the Killer times.
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I agree, it should be 30000 seconds minimum
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I gave a response to that and you replied
"I stopped reading there."
So I will try one last time to respond. I even drew a little diagram to keep things more lighthearted.
Situation A is comparable to C with no toolboxes, and B to D with giga toolboxes (Commodius/Event+WireSpool+SocketSwivels). I also removed travel time between gens in favor of your argument (as the solo gen times don't need to run between gens).
When Survivors duo on gens, their comparable time is roughly 16s longer than the solo equivalent to pop 2 gens. Heck, a solo Surv with a gigabox can complete a single gen only ~2s slower than 2 Survivors duoing a gen. The item is so powerful, it replaces an entire player for a gen. That's crazy. I can't see how co-oping gens could be considered a problem when Survivors are already penalized to do so. I can understand how soloing gens is a problem, because of the risk/reward ratios.
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The problem is the fact that both things can happen in the same match.
Survivors split up or 1 + 2 on gens while you're chasing someone else and you lose 2-3 gens in 1 chase with absolutely no counterplay.
Then since the number of available generators effectively was decreased, survivors are more likely to pair up on a gen and crank it out in <50 seconds.
Pairing up is an eventuality because survivors will have to "meet up" for hooksaves, essentially guaranteing that no generator is "90 seconds" except for *maybe* first 1-2.
This problem is effectively compounded if survivors bring just a single commodius or "gigabox" and dump it on the first generator effectively guaranteeing that the average generator time in the entire trial is always <60 seconds.
This isn't even taking into account the multitude of survivor perks that give repair boosts.
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And haven't you thought that perhaps what you are doing is precisely disagreeing with math? Just saying.the real problem is the progression of two survivors being 1.7 c/s to begin with. And I already did the math proving that.The problem with your structure is you are throwing out lots of uncontested facts (math) about the game and presuming that's what's being argued over. Based upon these facts you reach an opinion, that two survivors on gens is too fast, but you aren't seeing that's an opinion. You aren't distinguishing which part is the math and which part is your conclusion on what good game design/strategy is and why.
@mizark3 even puts up diagrams. If you're disagreeing with him, you're disagreeing with math.
So I'll ask - why is it that two survivors being able to do a gen at 1.7 c/s a problem?
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Both can happen in the same match, but instead of keeping gens worked at 1 charge per second per Survivor, they penalize Survivors for grouping up. They drop to .85 charges per second per Survivor to duo a gen or 1.7 total, dropping to .7 charges per second per Survivor to trio a gen or 2.1 total, and dropping immensely to .55 charges per second per Survivor to quad a gen or 2.2 total. Due to this penalty, the only time Survivors have a reason to group up is to kick out a 3gen target, or finish the final gen.
I also don't understand why many Killers dislike the idea of Survivors grouping up. Nearly every Killer benefits from Survivors being together. Strong Killers can snowball hits quickly, Plague spreads more infection, Legion chains more hits, Ghosty gets more stalks, Doc gets more T3 madness for slowdown, Trapper has less people to see where he set up traps in advance, Ranged Killers can threaten gens to prevent greed working on it while the other Surv loops nearby, Knight can distract 1 Survivor with a guard and chase the other one, and everyone else can chase the person going for the less favorable loop/position instead of being forced to chase the person taking the strongest loop/position. The only Killer I can understand not liking grouping up is Twins, as that is their main counterplay.
I do want toolboxes nerfed, although I don't want the team who nerfed medkits to all be the same flavor to also be responsible for doing that. I'd like to see sabo's be dropped to 4 charges from 6, while also dropping toolbox charges by the same rate (2/3rds), that way repairs can get less gen progress, but sabo's won't be sacrificed on that same altar.
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Nerfs for gen progression have to be done carefully so the impact isn't felt most by the average survivor. Most survivors are not gen efficient. They blow skill checks, can't find the stupid things for extended periods of time, don't run good toolboxes as they don't understand or care about add-ons.
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I cannot break a completed Gen. Therefore, although not as efficient, survivors who group up can be a danger if they manage to finish that Gen before I can interrupt it.
If you are unlucky in the start 1-2 Gens pop before you are even there.
And even if you get to that Gen, one survivor will be chased while the other(s) complete the Gen in your face unless you are Blight or Nurse and the chase only takes 10s.
Before the PT nerf it was very important to sniff out the players who had this perk so that gens would not fly.
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I would say instead of waiting for something to be done, perhaps you could take pointers from killers who have over come this issue?
That is really your only current option, I'm afraid.
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I still thought that if the survivors take 4 boxes with tools, it breaks the game. the question arises, are there so many of them that the survivors can afford to take them in every game? it makes you think
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You don't need to camp/tunnel/slug/use any perks/use any abilities to win if you are really good. Meaning you are definitely not forced to play blight/nurse or going for 4 slowdowns.
If 3 mins is too quick for survivor, then sure. Make gens 2 mins each. But we also have records like this
so this means we also have to add 2 health states to survivor by exactly the same logic. If we consider downing only, I saw some insane bubba speedruns with double iri addons - my guess is they were in under single minute (I can be wrong, but it was super quick). Or maybe it might make sense to forget about extremes and look at the average case? Which already states killers have above 50% kill rate - so there's ABSOLUTELY no need to raise generator times any longer.
Also - you keep talking about point where survivors spawn on a gen and use their toolbox for it immediately. I had countless of games where I had 1st chase a bit clumsy (alternatively survivor was predropping everything with WoO) which results in 3 gens in first chase. But the match ended in 4K at 2 gens regardless. It's all and only about killer being able to create pressure vs survivors being able to loop for long enough without using too many resources. That's it. What does it matter if even 5 gens pop quickly if all the survivors end up dying? And again - kill rate is clearly stating killers are more advantageous.
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the only problem is that I want to play normally. It looks so capricious if you take for example the spirit of the survivors killing themselves after the first fall. And if you want to play a long competition on the M1 killer, it won't work like that, and choosing perks only to slow down the generator is so boring. the current meta is pretty disgusting even though I'm not a dbd veteran
and what is the point of citing as an example a person who recorded 1,000,000 hours in dbd and this is literally a large part of his life. I'm sorry, but that's not what I'm going to turn my life into.
I don't play the game to win, I play the game for the thrill. and what feelings can there be? and a general question to all. how can you win on m1 killer without resorting to tunneling when the survivors have 4 boxes with tools and more in chests? this is a rhetorical question
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You are stomping against a brick wall. If they don't understand by now that even in their "real scenarios" at some point of the match survivors are going to group up to do a gen, even if it is by chance, and that alone implies 37 seconds less for a killer to pressure that gen whatever by disturbing them or applying a regression perk, they are not going to understand by the simple fact they don't want to.
Let them keep saying that an specific setup with multiple survivors with "gigaboxes" and everyone in a single gen is the problem of gens flying in your average game at the same time they argue that the 2:40 was because an specific situation with specific builds and don't represents your average game.
Do you realize that like in any world record of a killer, survivors have more to do with it than the killer, right? If any of those survivors just started running instead of staying in there then there would be no record. Survivors gen times would be comparable to killers 4K if gens wasn't static things that can't do whatever is in their hands for you to not get them. I mean, come on...
And please, tell me where my point was about survivors spawn or their toolboxes, when I argue precisely that those are just symptoms of the real disease. Also, tell me where I said that there is a need to raise generator times when I'm talking about making the min floor higher without touching the 90 second max.
And following your logic, what does it matter if a killer does a 4K at 5 gens without letting survivors touch a gen if there are survivors that can do a 4 escape when the killer only had one or two hooks? Stop complaining about OP killers or how is so hard to go against them!... See? That is a flawed logic if I ever saw one.
Post edited by Batusalen on1 -
You bring that otz video as if its "proof" of anything regarding killer.
You had all Survivors doing colossal messups + starstruck value for free.
First meg sticks the gen instead of running, free hit 1. Then ends up DHing for distance into a wall... free hit 2.
Ace for some reason walks around the little booth instead of booking it and gets 1 shot by starstruck , free hit + free down.
Bill sticks the gen for some unknown reason and gets starstruck too, free hit + freedown again.
4th girl attempts to pickup in the killers face even though at this point it was obvious the killer had a oneshot perk and gets... you guessed it... one shot...
It was almost like survivors were just throwing themselves at the killer....
Killers dont go into a match attempting a speedrun because thats not something in the killers control.
Survivors can attempt speedruns because they can actually control the gen times.
When even soloQ lobbies can crank out gens in 4-6 minutes it's a clear indicator that gens are too fast.
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I
cannot break a completed Gen. Therefore, although not as efficient, survivors who group up can be a danger if they manage to finish that Gen before I can interrupt it.Yes, that's the trade off. Survivors give up efficiency for a completed gen. However, survivors need to complete 5 gens. They've wasted time to finish 1.
And even if you get to that Gen, one survivor will be chased while the other(s) complete the Gen in your face unless you are Blight or Nurse and the chase only takes 10s.And if they were on different gens, the one survivor would never have to leave the gen. If they are that determined to finish the gen you can now play mind games and potentially get a free hit on one.
But again, they need to finish 5 gens, if they are that determined to finish the first gen or two you have no particular reason to protect it.
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I don't think they have a response to the arguments you've made, so I just wanted to say I liked the pictures.
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The counter argument to what he said was made long before and after he made it. Other thing is that he decided to ignore it or you decided to keep trying to defend it.
By the way, another advantage of doing the gens faster: Less time lost per charge regressed and faster recovery. If a killer regress 10 charges from a gen, you would have lost 10 seconds if it was only one survivor on the gen. If there were 2, only 5.88 seconds of work would have being lost. And vice-versa, it would take another 10 seconds to recover that 10 charges, but with two survivors it would be recovered in 5.88 seconds. In other words, having multiple survivors in one gen is the best way to combat regression.
But keep it up. The day they change the spawns and nerf the toolboxes and perks and nothing changes we will talk again.
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
So the problem is, that the game is impossible to win? Or that you can't win every time?
Killers already have above 50% kill rate. That's more then fair share. This is multiplayer game and every time you win, someone else has to loose. You just can't ask developers to buff your side "to always win" (without looking biased/spoiled).
Also, nobody asks you to play powerless trapper that can't camp/tunnel/slug. The video shows you that you can win most of the games even under these conditions if you are that good (meaning skill matters and it's actually on you).
No. It's the same thing. Survivors trying to genrush for world record are literally THE most vulnerable survivors they can be.
Meaning they HAVE TO face bad killer - or they will not get world record. Same thing as killer can't down team eternal in under 1 minute. I fail to see the difference.
To your next point - how can 4 survivors fix 4 gens when they are actively pressured (away from static location) and downed (killer's micro and macro skill) within 30s of spawning? You just can't work on a gen if you are downed or on hook - and that's killer's agency. You can be genrushed only if you as a killer fail to pressure them. I am not talking how hard that is (as that greatly differs depending on many aspects - but average case like tinkering with generator times affects all cases and for these I will again delegate to above 50% kill rate) - but the end result is the same.
To your last paragraph - I said myself to ignore extremes as they make little sense (because 2 mins gens and 4 health state survivors is stupid) - so bringing up more extremes is just confirming what I already said. So I don't get your point
So if killers play bad for a speedrun, then it's game problem. But if survivors play bad, then it's survivor's fault? Were you not the one talking that I have a bias?
Because let's be honest. If you can't down someone in 3 minutes (effectively ruining speedrun) - then that means you are bad killer (at least compared to your survivors). There's just no way around that one
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So, when it fits your narrative, Hens is such a good and pro player he is in the highest MMR possible and confronts always the best players this game can produce. When not, they get the world record on gen repair times because they went against bad killers.
To your next point: What in the fog are you talking about and what it has to do with anything I said?
And your last paragraph: It was you who employed that logic in a fallacious point. I just reversed it so you can see how absurd it is. Now you try to deflect by saying "I'm bringing up more extremes". K, dude, K...
Also, it's funny, because I'm just answering in another post about kill and win rates, and according to Nightlight the kill rate is right know at 53.7%, with killers doing more than 3K only 46.04% of the time. In other words, survivors are winning 47.28% of their games, while killers just 46.07%. Not that Nightlight it's the ultimate source of data as it depends on users manually uploading it, but there you go.
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You know very well that Hens' speedrun video proved your claims completely wrong, at super high MMR with killers bringing corrupt, DL, No way out etc, and actively *trying to win* they still managed 5 gen pops + escapes in 3~ minutes
Do you have any idea how many chases a killer can do in 3 minutes at a VERY GOOD 30 seconds max a chase? 6 chases... a whole lot of *SIX* chases..... Now if you're realistic and include the time to find the survivor +travel + hook, you're looking at *at a minimum* of 45-60s between chases. at that point you get.... 3 chases.... ***THREE WHOLE CHASES IN A MATCH*
You're welcome to grab a normal speedrun match (No farming / AFK) and point out the "killer mistakes" that allowed the speedrun to happen.
But im feeling nice so I'll save you the trouble. "Well the killer didn't bring corrupt or deadlock"
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On the topic of killrates, a 50% killrate is not fair at all thats a killer loss/Tie every game and never a win.
Its time to stop being so survivor biased.
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1, hens is high MMR and gets good survivors. If MMR works. As everyone knows, you will get bad MM from time to time. If you need 1 game out of 50 to set record, you get vastly different result when you start to record next upcoming 10 (or more for those other streamers) games and record that. Or are you saying MM failed 10 (or 9) times in a row? Or will you repeat yourself that these 2 things are not different at all?
2, do you think you can get world record escape against lilith omen? Or supaalf? Or onepumpwillie? Or even Hens/Otz? Because I am pretty sure no matter your build and coordination, you just won't get close to 3 minutes against them (and these streamers are just extreme example to illustrate the point - even regular good killer will keep you in game longer then those 3 minutes).
3, how can you reverse my point by pointing the thing I hinted as stupid? Or are you saying that when I say taking speedruns is nonsense, that averaging good survivor vs bad survivor game makes some sensible point? How? I fail to see it.
4, so killer loosing a game is the same as drawing. 2k does not exists or is the same as loosing the game. Do I get your point right? Draw=loose in your world? Because survivor can't half-die. So comparing killer wins to sirvivor wins is just as fair as comparing killer loosing to survivor loosing (see - according to nightlight killer looses way less often as survivor)
You clearly watched different video then. Some video that does not exists to my knowledge. Not surprising one bit at this point.
Not to mention your magical math that counts with people on hook and people going for a rescue still progressing gens somehow.
As to your last sentence... match killer losses to survivor losses and count the rest to wins then. But your bias will never allow you to comptehend that you just can't bundle losses with draws together and pit them against wins. Draw is not a loose. I know it's hard concept to grasp on this forum, but really. Counting draw as lost game is just not fair
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By the way, another advantage of do the gens faster: Less time lost per charge regressed and faster recovery. If a killer regress 10 charges from a gen, you would have lost 10 seconds if it was only one survivor on the gen. If there were 2, only 5.88 seconds of work would have being lost.This isn't accurate.
You continue to assume that the second survivor if not on the gen is just standing in a corner. If the survivors split up, the gen that survivor is on has never been regressed, nor did they ever need to run off of it. Thus not only is their work never lost in the first place, they were able to get more done.
The counter argument to what he said was made long before and after he made it. Other thing is that he decided to ignore it or you decided to keep trying to defend it.Okay, so he's won the argument basically but you don't want to admit it.
The day they change the spawns and nerf the toolboxes and perks and nothing changes we will talk again.You want to talk toolboxes and perks, go ahead.
On the argument that survivors grouping up at the start of the match is needing to be fixed, you are clearly wrong. It is a decision with some pros and a lot of cons.
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On the topic of killrates, a 50% killrate is not fair at all thats a killer loss/Tie every game and never a win.What?
There's no way you get a 50% with only ties and losses. The argument why it needs to be higher than 50% is that survivors are more likely to afk, but as the poster said, its more than a 50% rate.
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https://youtu.be/Bxf3uzI--ik?si=nTGuDuO0XlhYC_9M
Im not doing any difficult math, its literally what happened in the games, even with hooks and saves, they still popped all 5 and left in ~3 minutes. Game 1 is a *perfect example*
Lets be real here, a killer 2k (Community claimed tie) is still effectively a killer Loss, a 2k implies survivors did all their gens and were on their way out. Game 7 + Game 9 on the video are *perfect examples* of this.
A 50% Killrate implies 2 kills out of 4. (because you know, basic math says that half of 4 is 2) which in turn, for this to be a reality, survivors have to pop all 5 gens since only 1 person can escape trough hatch.
As i've said above, even though a 2k is considered a tie by the community, its effectively still a killer loss because all 5 gens were popped and the survivors were on their way out.
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