are the developers going to do something with the generators?

Yes exactly, a mini 30 seconds corrupt should be basekit to stop survivors with toolboxes and PT completing gens before you can even cross the map.

"Shielding a bad faith argument with an extreme"... I stopped reading there.

Read this post and just like I said, if you still doesn't understand it's on you.

Choosing to not engage when proven wrong merely proves you further wrong. Thinking a normal match is too quick, when I was consistently winning Clown matches with the 80s gens, shows a fundamental lack of understanding in how to play Killer, whether that be in micro (chases) or macro (gens/pallets). Check guides as how to play Killer if the gen times are a legitimate issue for you. Alternatively purposely 8 hook for a week (without kills), and intentionally lower your MMR. After that, you should be able to play in less sweaty matches, win normally, then finally reach a good equilibrium of Survivors with your skill level.

The devil is in the details. Deadlock prevents multi-gen pops, so I would only consider that 'necessary' on Pig to space headtraps going red for greater pressure, or a dedicated facecamper build, but even then that is more QoL for Pig than truly necessary. Corrupt Intervention helps shore up a weak early game, which can be mitigated by playing the game on both sides and learning the spawn mechanics better, or hopping into bot matches with Lethal Pursuer for an hour and getting a 'feel' for the game. Once you have a general idea of where people will spawn and how, such as quad spawns, dual duo spawns, and split spawns, you can play accordingly and not 'need' Lethal/Corrupt anymore. I will admit I am a Lethal Pursuer addict, but I often run at least 1 other aura effect alongside it as well.

What is the counter for camping? Don't be hooked? Ok, are Survivors designed to never go down? No, Bloodlust exists, pallets are finite, the entity blocks windows after the 3rd vault, so Survivor is designed to eventually go down. Is it possible to do anything on hook? You can end the game sooner... So you are in a situation without agency. Agency is key, as you can always make a different play as Killer, but Survivor is balanced around moments of no agency before you are allowed to play the game again. Camping denies an end to the agency-less situation. Agency is the issue. I too hate genb4fren, but camping from the onset encourages that instead. The anti-facecamp gives some semblance of agency, but still won't prevent proxycamping choke points instead.

So, the problem are not the toolboxes adding too much to the base progression, the problem is not two or more survivors spawning in one generator, the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by default

Your post is the equivalent of saying 2+2=4, anyone who disagrees with me disagrees with math.

Yeah, those are the numbers, but your conclusion still doesn't make any sense. The survivors are still going slower working together then they would if they were split up.

Why is ~53 seconds somehow unreasonable to do a gen when it is taking two of the survivors time? They are losing roughly 8 seconds if they hadn't been split up.

Your argument is based on the presumption that anyone looking at the numbers would agree its a problem, but they're not. Survivors make a trade off by working together on a gen, less overall progress, easier to be interrupted, but increase the chance to finish it before a regression.

I keep hearing this, but people that say it seems to forget that a killer can only chase one of you, letting the other one free to keep repairing the gen.

And if they were split up, one of those people never would have even needed to get off the gen.

I think what you're still failing to get here is that the mathematical numbers you're referring to are what proves why you're wrong.

In fact, I think the clearest indication of why can be found in your post here, where you have to concoct a scenario where two survivors are completely uninterrupted while they repair two generators, all so they can achieve the incredible goal of doing those two generators... slower than if they'd split up.

Why would they be uninterrupted? What is the killer doing during this time? This is my point. If survivors have no super fast gen speed tools, and if they're grouping up on generators, your skill will affect how fast those generators fly, because you're right- if they're left to their own devices, it's not that hard to finish generators pretty quickly because there's no real skill component to repairing beyond not missing a pretty generous timing minigame now and again. Your job is to make sure that they aren't left to their own devices, and you do have time to do that.

You might pivot to saying that if they group up on their first generator the killer doesn't have time to interrupt it, and while I disagree with that, let's take it at face value for a moment. Okay, you lost one generator. The survivors have no other gen progression to speak of if they've grouped up (maybe a single other generator at somewhere around half if they went 2/2), so they still have four generators to repair, at default speed, while you're trying to stop them. That plus the exit gate time if it gets that far. I don't see how this is a problem for a killer that's actively trying to stop them.

I'm going to use your argumentative strategy for a second here; "They can shave 37 seconds off a gen..." It doesn't matter! How long it takes one generator to be finished isn't as important as how many generators are being repaired at once, and if they're grouped up, that means your worst case scenario is losing one generator before you've got a hook and the game begins in earnest. Even in this worst case scenario, if survivors keep trying to group up, you have so many opportunities to leverage that and generate pressure it's staggering. That's not even mentioning what happens when you do get there in time to interrupt it, because then generator repair completely grinds to a halt for a short while.

Again, I am not arguing that there is a strategy which is just better than grouping up. I am explaining why grouping up is a bad choice in most scenarios and why you as a killer should be happy to see survivors do it. I am explaining why grouping up will not lead to generators flying too fast for a killer to get a win unless that killer is AFK... or unless there's something about their build or gameplay that needs improving.

Grouping up and the progression numbers it leads to cannot be the root of all problems when it's not a good strategy to begin with. You've referred to gen speed tools working off a higher percentage, and that's true, but even in your post about an addonless toolbox (for some reason) you admit that the gen speed from one of the strongest single sources there is doesn't overcome the default inefficiency of grouping up on generators. It's when those strong tools are used on multiple generators at once that it starts to take away killer agency, and guess what; if they're nerfed, that means they'll be less useful on survivors grouping up, too.

Because they are two different things.

Survivors objective is to do gens, as killer you have multiple perks depending on your playstyle/strengths that can slow that down. Alternatively you have perks to help you find them faster, make it harder for them to recover, etc. But you are going to get value out of those perks regardless of how the survivors play.

There are three problems to the idea of fixing camping with perks. Survivors don't know the killer/killer strategy they are facing, a survivor doesn't have enough perk slots to deal with all of the possible 'you should have just brought X'. Secondly, survivors don't know what perks the other players are bringing, so you have no idea if you need to be the player with reassurance or not. Third, reassurance doesn't fix the core gameplay issue that being stuck on the hook for a long time isn't a fun game, it actually just makes it worse.

Choosing to use strawmans and ad hominems to engage is what really proves you wrong. I'm not even going to try to debate with you if you are going to simply ignore everything I say and paint my arguments as being "in bad faith", whatever you meant with that.

Again, I already gave an extended explanation of how and why base progression with two survivors is the real problem. If you keep not understanding it, it's your fault. And if you want to address the real points I made instead of yet again bringing specific situations, subjective experiences and various fallacies to the table here I am. Meanwhile, I'm not even going to try to read whatever you said.

And haven't you thought that perhaps what you are doing is precisely disagreeing with math? Just saying.

You can argue of the effects that changing that number could bring, but all of you are not doing that. Even by reducing the base progression multiplayer, it would still be more effective to split up or play however you think is the most efficient way. That is not an argument against it being so high that is the core of all the symptoms people in this post are saying are the real problem (spawn points, toolboxes, etc.).

No, the problem is not a toolbox granting a +50% progression bonus, the real problem is the progression of two survivors being 1.7 c/s to begin with. And I already did the math proving that.

Just like I said, the strategy you seem being the best and how you play the game has nothing to do with the mathematical fact that the base progression of two survivors in a gen is so high that is the core of all those other problems that you yourself have mention, like two survivors spawning near a gen or toolboxes and progression perks being so effective.

And even if they reduced the base progression multiplier for two survivors, it won't change that it would be better to split up for "insert reason". I don't know how it can be so hard to understand a simple and explained fact.

I saw multiple videos that showed "I wasn't camping but they got to Kobe!!!" when the Killer was flagrantly camping, and I saw multiple instances of camping without activating the mechanic as well, because like I said, proxy camping chokepoints isn't 'camping' according to the system.

Multiple gens popping in succession is a natural part of a poor early game. When I listened to an explanation back when by McLean while he was still working on DBD, he more or less described early game as the first 3 gens popping, mid game as the 1/1/1/1 concept other people use now, and endgame being a final chance for Killer to shore up gate and hook defense. One thing people don't seem to understand, is that it isn't over until its over. Also known as the 1HP concept. As long as you have 1 HP in a turn based game, you still get the same turn that you had at 9999HP. The gens remaining or HP doesn't matter until you are at 0/fight for your life/endgame, and might be able to claw out for a final kill or more. It is important to take those 3 gen pops in stride and keep fighting until you are out entirely.

As far as the cycle timing, I feel like this must be missing some context, like being a powerless M1 or something. Survivor greed always gives free hits, so even a powerless M1 Killer can capitalize on their mistakes to snowball a win.

I don't think anyone should be 'forced' to run any perk, but I recognize the use case for crutches. Windows is a crutch for poor map knowledge, or a QoL soloq 'did they drop the pallet here' perk. Regression is an adjustable difficulty slider that can be used in concert with Killer choice. Do you run 0/1/2/3/4? Do you run Wraith or Dredge or Blight? Each are the difficulty sliders for Killer. Also counting 16 perk slots for Survivor, when Survivor perks are of a different power level compared to Killer perks, is a bit of a joke. Especially when the Meta Survivor perks can easily be played around by not tunneling (OTR/DS), not slugging in excess of 20s (Unbreakable), and more.

So you mean the stronger (and usable) 5s DS, the stronger DH for distance, the same strength UB (arguably stronger with the combined threat of DS), and the now mostly basekitted BT? That was far more difficult for Killer to deal with than the current retinue. Stealth and mindgames and Bloodlust all deal with MfT far better than they ever could deal with DH. Heck, Deja Vu didn't even get buffed to a permanent 6% until much later after the 90s gens when OCoBruption (Overcharge+Call of Brine+Eruption) users forced the dev's hand. The degen 3gen kick meta was the only time Killer was stronger than now, although there could be an argument made for old Undying Ruin on Blight for like 1-2 months while that existed.

BNPs are only buffed if the Killer regresses a gen to the extreme. A BNP gave 3 charges/s extra for 5s (if you hit both skill checks), or +15 charges over a normal repair, and the new BNP gives a static 10 charges and reduces repeated regression. To make up that difference you basically need to regress 50 gen seconds, or 2 current Pop kicks on 99'd gens, or ~4 Pop kicks on half gens (that have the BNP applied to them). I'd say I get 2 Pop kicks on a singular gen at most, and usually it gets completed or I need to Pop a different gen instead.

While it is fair to say things have changed drastically, they have changed largely in the favor of Killer (with an extra perk slot being available due to basekit BT being the major Survivor aid, but even then Killers could just go for the rescuer and down them easily and not need to risk Anti-Tunnel effects). Anti-tunnel gutted, CoH gutted, BNPs nerfed in the majority of cases, medkits gutted beyond belief, and Killer lost Ruin.

The point of the speedrun comparison was the sweaty Hens SWF extreme could only hover around 3 minutes, but Killers extreme can hover around 2. Even if we used the Survivor escapes on the speedrun site (which is quite flawed with their ruleset for both Killer and Survivor), it still is double to triple the Killer times.

And haven't you thought that perhaps what you are doing is precisely disagreeing with math? Just saying.

the real problem is the progression of two survivors being 1.7 c/s to begin with. And I already did the math proving that.

The problem with your structure is you are throwing out lots of uncontested facts (math) about the game and presuming that's what's being argued over. Based upon these facts you reach an opinion, that two survivors on gens is too fast, but you aren't seeing that's an opinion. You aren't distinguishing which part is the math and which part is your conclusion on what good game design/strategy is and why.

@mizark3 even puts up diagrams. If you're disagreeing with him, you're disagreeing with math.

So I'll ask - why is it that two survivors being able to do a gen at 1.7 c/s a problem?

Nerfs for gen progression have to be done carefully so the impact isn't felt most by the average survivor. Most survivors are not gen efficient. They blow skill checks, can't find the stupid things for extended periods of time, don't run good toolboxes as they don't understand or care about add-ons.

You don't need to camp/tunnel/slug/use any perks/use any abilities to win if you are really good. Meaning you are definitely not forced to play blight/nurse or going for 4 slowdowns.

If 3 mins is too quick for survivor, then sure. Make gens 2 mins each. But we also have records like this

so this means we also have to add 2 health states to survivor by exactly the same logic. If we consider downing only, I saw some insane bubba speedruns with double iri addons - my guess is they were in under single minute (I can be wrong, but it was super quick). Or maybe it might make sense to forget about extremes and look at the average case? Which already states killers have above 50% kill rate - so there's ABSOLUTELY no need to raise generator times any longer.

Also - you keep talking about point where survivors spawn on a gen and use their toolbox for it immediately. I had countless of games where I had 1st chase a bit clumsy (alternatively survivor was predropping everything with WoO) which results in 3 gens in first chase. But the match ended in 4K at 2 gens regardless. It's all and only about killer being able to create pressure vs survivors being able to loop for long enough without using too many resources. That's it. What does it matter if even 5 gens pop quickly if all the survivors end up dying? And again - kill rate is clearly stating killers are more advantageous.

You are stomping against a brick wall. If they don't understand by now that even in their "real scenarios" at some point of the match survivors are going to group up to do a gen, even if it is by chance, and that alone implies 37 seconds less for a killer to pressure that gen whatever by disturbing them or applying a regression perk, they are not going to understand by the simple fact they don't want to.

Let them keep saying that an specific setup with multiple survivors with "gigaboxes" and everyone in a single gen is the problem of gens flying in your average game at the same time they argue that the 2:40 was because an specific situation with specific builds and don't represents your average game.

Do you realize that like in any world record of a killer, survivors have more to do with it than the killer, right? If any of those survivors just started running instead of staying in there then there would be no record. Survivors gen times would be comparable to killers 4K if gens wasn't static things that can't do whatever is in their hands for you to not get them. I mean, come on...

And please, tell me where my point was about survivors spawn or their toolboxes, when I argue precisely that those are just symptoms of the real disease. Also, tell me where I said that there is a need to raise generator times when I'm talking about making the min floor higher without touching the 90 second max.

And following your logic, what does it matter if a killer does a 4K at 5 gens without letting survivors touch a gen if there are survivors that can do a 4 escape when the killer only had one or two hooks? Stop complaining about OP killers or how is so hard to go against them!... See? That is a flawed logic if I ever saw one.

I cannot break a completed Gen. Therefore, although not as efficient, survivors who group up can be a danger if they manage to finish that Gen before I can interrupt it.

Yes, that's the trade off. Survivors give up efficiency for a completed gen. However, survivors need to complete 5 gens. They've wasted time to finish 1.

And even if you get to that Gen, one survivor will be chased while the other(s) complete the Gen in your face unless you are Blight or Nurse and the chase only takes 10s.

And if they were on different gens, the one survivor would never have to leave the gen. If they are that determined to finish the gen you can now play mind games and potentially get a free hit on one.

But again, they need to finish 5 gens, if they are that determined to finish the first gen or two you have no particular reason to protect it.

The counter argument to what he said was made long before and after he made it. Other thing is that he decided to ignore it or you decided to keep trying to defend it.

By the way, another advantage of doing the gens faster: Less time lost per charge regressed and faster recovery. If a killer regress 10 charges from a gen, you would have lost 10 seconds if it was only one survivor on the gen. If there were 2, only 5.88 seconds of work would have being lost. And vice-versa, it would take another 10 seconds to recover that 10 charges, but with two survivors it would be recovered in 5.88 seconds. In other words, having multiple survivors in one gen is the best way to combat regression.

But keep it up. The day they change the spawns and nerf the toolboxes and perks and nothing changes we will talk again.

So, when it fits your narrative, Hens is such a good and pro player he is in the highest MMR possible and confronts always the best players this game can produce. When not, they get the world record on gen repair times because they went against bad killers.

To your next point: What in the fog are you talking about and what it has to do with anything I said?

And your last paragraph: It was you who employed that logic in a fallacious point. I just reversed it so you can see how absurd it is. Now you try to deflect by saying "I'm bringing up more extremes". K, dude, K...

Also, it's funny, because I'm just answering in another post about kill and win rates, and according to Nightlight the kill rate is right know at 53.7%, with killers doing more than 3K only 46.04% of the time. In other words, survivors are winning 47.28% of their games, while killers just 46.07%. Not that Nightlight it's the ultimate source of data as it depends on users manually uploading it, but there you go.

1, hens is high MMR and gets good survivors. If MMR works. As everyone knows, you will get bad MM from time to time. If you need 1 game out of 50 to set record, you get vastly different result when you start to record next upcoming 10 (or more for those other streamers) games and record that. Or are you saying MM failed 10 (or 9) times in a row? Or will you repeat yourself that these 2 things are not different at all?

2, do you think you can get world record escape against lilith omen? Or supaalf? Or onepumpwillie? Or even Hens/Otz? Because I am pretty sure no matter your build and coordination, you just won't get close to 3 minutes against them (and these streamers are just extreme example to illustrate the point - even regular good killer will keep you in game longer then those 3 minutes).

3, how can you reverse my point by pointing the thing I hinted as stupid? Or are you saying that when I say taking speedruns is nonsense, that averaging good survivor vs bad survivor game makes some sensible point? How? I fail to see it.

4, so killer loosing a game is the same as drawing. 2k does not exists or is the same as loosing the game. Do I get your point right? Draw=loose in your world? Because survivor can't half-die. So comparing killer wins to sirvivor wins is just as fair as comparing killer loosing to survivor loosing (see - according to nightlight killer looses way less often as survivor)

You clearly watched different video then. Some video that does not exists to my knowledge. Not surprising one bit at this point.

Not to mention your magical math that counts with people on hook and people going for a rescue still progressing gens somehow.

As to your last sentence... match killer losses to survivor losses and count the rest to wins then. But your bias will never allow you to comptehend that you just can't bundle losses with draws together and pit them against wins. Draw is not a loose. I know it's hard concept to grasp on this forum, but really. Counting draw as lost game is just not fair

On the topic of killrates, a 50% killrate is not fair at all thats a killer loss/Tie every game and never a win.

What?

There's no way you get a 50% with only ties and losses. The argument why it needs to be higher than 50% is that survivors are more likely to afk, but as the poster said, its more than a 50% rate.