We're going on 5 months that MFT is still unchanged
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Trickster slows down to use his power, but unlike Huntress is actually terrible at hitting at increased ranges. When he's throwing knives, the Survivor is gaining distance. MFT increases that distance and makes subsequent knives harder to land, potentially allowing that Survivor to reach a LoS-blocker and avoid a laceration altogether.
Say the Survivor is in a good spot to hit with knives. You use your power, slow down, hit them a few times. MFT gets them out of your effective range quicker and increases the time it takes you to get back into that effective range once you stop using your power. You either have to expend ammo on increasingly riskier shots to secure the down you might have been otherwise able to get relatively easily or you drop your power earlier and get less hits in order to stay at a competitive distance and hope they don't reach cover. He's significantly affected by MFT even outside of loops, unless the Survivor is just holding W and not attempting to dodge to some degree, that is.
The vast majority of chases do involve loops, so it wouldn't even matter if he was fine outside of them, because he's so heavily shut down at a lot of those said same loops.
Post edited by Raconteurminator on5 -
Why are you asking to test with a Killer that ultimately isn't affected by MFT that badly when the biggest issue with the perk is how miserable it is to play against with more than half the roster?
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You didn't know that dbd law states that all killers must have nothing but winning matches simply because they showed up? My guy get with the times
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I just wish it didn't work if you were in deep wound, cause someone like slinger its oh hey I got a good shot and now it'll be 40 seconds until I can catch up. Or a killer like legion, were his main power is injuring them. There's also plauge.
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But i was not only talking about the leadup that changes to the lunge, i was talking on the distance when you make the lunge.
Let me qoute myself:
Because as killer you learned the distances. At what distance you can hit, at what distance you can Lunge attack. With MFT all what you learned is wrong. You will miss it.The time you need to keep up changes ofc too. How i said some plays for example advanced plays with doctor are not possible anymore since they dont work if the survivor walks 3% faster anymore. And with 4,4 killers the "loop advantage" is even higher. Since survivors can walk loops tighter you see a difference especally in small loops. But how i said, my main problem is that this leared point when to hit changed.
As far as Coup is concerned, what part of it is what you dislike?
I dislike that the survivor doesnt know if you have it or not and it changed what you learnd before. So "I will make the window" is starting to getting wrong and you should have tried to reach the next corner instead. And its not that you did something wrong, the killer just used a perk (that you dindt knew he had, and that you coulndt see before).
I dislike the whole idea of the perk.
then the Survivors can play around the Killer theoretically always having it.
I disagree witht his, because for example Coup makes L-T walls unsafe, so if you play like "he allways has it" most of the structures are useless and you shoulndt go to them.
the additional flaw of MfT users too often becoming overconfident while injured, makes them not heal even when it would be beneficial
Alot of the survivors are playing the "no-healing" playstyle, since it can be benefital to just finish a gen instead of healing. Alot of SWF teams dont heal up anymore unless its needed. Because why heal up when the killer is on the other side?
There are serveral talents that boost your character while injured and MFT fits perfect in that kind of playstyle. We have alot of killers that can injure you easily but its way harder to down you (for example legion).
For some other killers, the "follow up" hit is often easier as the initial hit (for example wesker)
"injured builds" are also very good against killer who use the exposed status.
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The survivor isn't gaining so much distance that they're guaranteed to reach a LoS blocker. He's not significantly affected by MFT outside of loops. If Trickster isn't able to hit a survivor out in the open who's "dodging", then that's on the player for having poor aim. That's not a MFT problem.
While it's true that chases do involve loops, you don't often start a chase at a loop. Trickster has more than enough ammo to zone survivors. Trickster is not heavily affected by MFT.
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No-one said they're guaranteed, but they're clearly much more likely to do so in a scenario where they haven't stupidly dead-zoned themselves. And that's what you're working on: that Trickster is just going to catch people in the open to a consistent enough degree that MFT won't affect him, that there's going to be no line of sight blockers anywhere, they're going to be nowhere near a loop or that he's always going to get a down before a loop or LoS-blocker can be reached. You addressed very little of what I said and what you did address amounted to, "Trickster is fine if Survivors are consistently dumb and put themselves in the worst possible scenario."
No perk in the history of the game, regardless of how broken, would seem that bad if you always talked about it being used in its worst possible scenario. DH for distance was fine, for example. In an enclosed room, with things to bump into. If you couldn't catch a Survivor that bumps into things in an enclosed room, that's clearly a skill issue - perk is fine. And this is what you did: instead of focusing on the more likely scenarios where MFT comes into play, you focused on the most unlikely one where it does next to nothing.
Post edited by Raconteurminator on1 -
Because he's the most popular Killer, ergo, he represents the most likely Killer you'd run into in a live game.
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Whoops, sometimes I forget I'm old, Thank you! I also live under a rock and the cell reception is bad. And that's why Made For This should only lose the endurance part of the perk and nothing else if it does receive a nerf!
Am I up to speed now? (Get it!?) 😃
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You may not be the youngest but you are the most wise
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We're not trying to ignore the misery of the majority of the roster because a handful of Killers are strong enough to not be bothered by it. Your set up of the experiment does nothing nor does it teach anything, it's akin to saying "but Nurse" to end all discussion. The original experiment showcases how neutered the basic fundamentals of Killers are against MFT and how awful it feels to be in chase against it.
Top SWFs can manage comfortably against Skull Merchant but aren't we all glad she's getting fixed? We shouldn't be relying on the top end to justify the existence of extremes that shut off the rest of the players. MFT doesn't do much to help you out against the strongest Killers, all it does it crush the lower performing Killers and make them switch to stronger Killers and that's when both sides become miserable.
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Top SWF's actually don't manage comfortably against SM, as shown by the nearly hour long hostage match with Team Eternal.
Myers, Ghostface, Pig and etc all have tools to deal with MFT just fine.
Freddy and trapper get hit hardest, but that's more an issue with their design than with MFT, imo.
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It probably takes genius level insight to understand the reason, isn't it?
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Every time I see Hens and co (the ones with the over 200 win streak with restrictive rules) the SM never comes close, even when she's chessing, it simply isn't a free win. Pretty sure that infamous video was Team Eternal's first attempt at that SM playstyle and at this point they've, and the other teams, have figured it out.
Myers and GF have the "tools" in a theoretical vacuum but you'd be mistaken if you don't think they're plagued by numerous obstacles (namely eyes). Their answer can't be only to get exposed downs because that's not readily available, nor realistic, in a normal game for them because of how long it takes. And Pig? Her lunge can barely function as is and that's not even considering MFT which she at least, in this same vacuum, is forced to chase down.
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Wait what, name what "tools" does myers / ghostface / pig have that counterplay Mft?
We're talking about 3 pureform M1 killers here with no chase power whatsoever.
Did a new update drop where myers and ghostface start taking healthstates by staring at survivors hard enough?
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Myers, Ghostface, and to a lesser extent Pig are all stealth killers. Staying injured against them is a very risky play, especially if they're particularly skilled players, so most survivors aren't going to want to risk it. If they do, you leverage your stealth to get the drop on them. If they don't, that's where Myers and Ghosty get to use their Exposed.
Pig comes out weakest, but Pig also has ways of emphasising the pressure she does get. Even if you don't have a way of getting a down other than basic M1 play, that down is more potent because of RBTs.
That's kinda the thing about MFT. Basically every killer can deal with it because while a 3% boost in speed is strong, it's not insurmountable and it's conditional - and the conditions it has puts pressure on how both sides play.
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there are pallet loops in the game that can be pretty much impossible to mindgame against good survivors without bloodlust for killers with garbage or no antiloop. that's why bloodlust exists. most of the time bloodlust 1 activates for 2 seconds after finally catching up and then is reset when the killer breaks the pallet. if you think its fair that you should be able to 1v1 the killer for possibly the entire trial duration because they picked a D tier killer then i'm glad you're not on the already rotten balance team.
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That's part of the theoretical vacuum I was mentioning, unfortunately staying injured these days isn't the big threat it usually is because of the HUD update (tracking who is getting chased), and, in these scenarios, we're also not considering the ability of the Survivors to simply see the Killer or even hear the T2 Terror Radius of Myers. I agree that as written these Killers have the correct tools to punish staying injured/exposed to avoid MFT, but there's so many common outliers for these characters that they ultimately remain at the mercy of MFT because both of them don't have reliable powers.
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It's not really that theoretical, it's just how games go.
They're stealthy. Ghostface is Undetectable so unless it's super open, you can ambush super easily. That's not theoretical, that's just... how it is. Myers has a super small TR, especially with Dead Rabbit, so survivors have a very short timeframe to react to hearing the heartbeat. That's not theoretical, that's just how it is.
You do have to actually play well, you don't get to passively benefit from it with no input on your side, but those tools are just there. The only real detracting factor is that they're map dependant, if you get an open map it can be hard to leverage your stealth.
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The tools are there, but so are the counters. It isn't enough that these Killers can punish injured/expose healthy Survivors when the means of preventing them are easy to come by of which you have multiple. You have HUD elements, audio cues, auras (against Myers), using your eyes. Even without MFT these Killers are considerably weak with unreliable powers that take precious investment in this already fast paced game. That unreliability will lead them to eventually having to chase against MFT. They do not counter MFT, they DO have the tools to leverage it, but they ultimately will still be at its mercy if both players are of equal footing because of their counters.
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Injured Builds especially against exposed Killers - Yeah, for the longest time I was finding it difficult to win with Myers, but I had to think outside of the box. I finally started running Thana/Plaything/Penti/(Personal choice). It requires 2 injuring hits relatively early to make them realize you aren't a Tombstone Myers, and you just chase normally and stalk when they drop pallets. Once you get a hook, you fall into a perfect equilibrium when they want to heal to prevent Thana, want to cleanse Plaything to prevent a T3 stealthy instadown, and don't have enough time to cleanse Penti after that. It took a large playstyle shift from how I used to play Myers, but it works much better in the current evironment. I did have to lose 5-10 matches to learn that playstyle shift though, so don't think this build can be ran successfully overnight.
I both understand and don't understand this complaint. Nearly all perks adjust how the game functions. If I return to a hook, I estimate 16/20s is how long it would take to heal (mangled being the 2nd number), but with Resurgence or We'll Make It, that drops to 8/10s, and both down to 4/5s. Similarly with Enduring for how long a stun lasts. At certain filler loops (like the new farm reworks), you only get somewhere else if the Killer is stunned the full duration. Also in a similar realm with Spirit Fury destroying the pallet altogether. All of those game sense markers are adjusted by perks, so this is nothing new. Heck, Myers T2 essentially gets a basekit Bamboozle vault speed boost, and T3 gets a basekit Superior Anatomy vault speed boost.
MfT specifically gives .12m/s over the normal 4.0m/s, and the lunge lasts .8s, which means MfT saves .096m at the lunge to the vault specifically. That is ~.02s of movement at 4.6. That is like adding 20 ping to the vault point in favor of Surv. Coup as specifically the vault's mirror adds .4s at 6.9m/s, or 2.3m/s extra for that early lunge timeframe, for .92m at the lunge portion specifically. Also if the loop rotation is roughly less than 8s, Coup yields more distance than MfT. That specific timing is roughly how long it takes to use the efficient window vaults at shack as Survivor (from non pallet doorway to window back to non pallet doorway), so any loop shorter than Shack favors Killer, and any longer loop favors Survivor (in a Coup vs MfT fight). To be fair there is a limit of Coups, and if you hate both sides of this coin that is a valid opinion even if I don't share it, as at least you are logically consistent in your opinion.
-- Separate from above replies --
One thing I will say is it would probably be fine if MfT gave the 3% haste and applied .1s of exhaustion when you start running while not exhausted for the duration of the run. That way it doesn't stack with any other exhaustion perk. You need to run to use DH, so you can't stack both with this change. This also is short enough to reset the exhaustion on vaults, while still keeping you exhausted while running to prevent other stacking effects like Iron Will. This would probably be a pain to code, but would functionally fix most stacking complaints that I do find legitimate. (As a reminder to anyone who hasn't read my other posts, I also advocate the removal of Endurance from MfT onto a weak or thematic perk instead, maybe Solidarity?)
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that is a major trickster problem. that is why his throw mode should be like 105% with increasing movement speed the more he throws up to 110%. trickster would have much smoother throw mode experience with that. your second sentence is complete description of why trickster is not fun to play. Use power, slow down, hit them few times, LOS. repeat that process along side the survivor winning by just hold-w passively. MFT exaggerates base-kit trickster's problems. I would not call MFT problem more that his base-balance is not good.
all the killer are affected MFT but how much they are affected varies on how well their power is balanced. for trickster, it is pretty bad because his base is bad.
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its a broken perk for survivors. itll be a few years unfortunately. but hey nerf xenomorph and demo right
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Lets not forget that it stacks with Hope, giving 10% haste.
I see killers struggeling getting into a chase for BL because of this, and no BL = no catch.
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We have Nurse for basically the whole time ... dont complain about some minor month.
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You forget that a lot of people don't have an IQ above room temperature (or maybe not IDK lol). They choose to poke at you instead of providing a compelling and engaging argument. I would simply ignore them as they are probably not worth your time and effort responding to them.
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Nurse is broken, but only if you put in the time to learn her power. Mft is just a free boost at no cost plus endurance
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MFT nerf in exchange for Blight nerf. Deal?
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I'd go as far to be happy with a full deletion of both.
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5 months is a long time!
I am starting to think that the devs will keep meta perks for half a year before another major perk shake up. However, this is a theory that been building in my mind for quite a while, but that just me.
the next perk meta shake up will be in July 2024.
You watch! xD
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What are you basing that on? I'm curious, they've only done one perk meta shake up so far so I'm not sure how you'd establish a pattern there.
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If you cant loop, the speed boost is worthless. I would say you can get a bad nurse to a good nurse in shorter time than a bad looper into a good looper.
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The psychological effect this perk has people is hilarious. It's been proven that this perk isn't that OP'd. Got to youtube and you can see even proof that it's been tested.
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Ok, give me a link that proves this.
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It's a survivor perk. They wont touch it until they see the number of killers dropping drastically, no matter how much we complain and how broken it is...
Ah, but if 2 or 3 survivors complain about a killer perk it gets nerfed with urgency...
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They might as well just make every survivor 103% at this point, at least it will be consistent
It barely impacts some killers and completely guts others. Peak game design
The amount of free pressure it puts on the weaker killers is just wild, you have to work so much harder to win games because of it and it takes 0 effort on the survivors part to just equip an overpowered perk. Not that survivors getting carried by broken perks is anything new to DBD, mind you
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Remove Endurance effect, and make it so MFT can’t stack with other haste perks.
Thats all the perk needs.
But (hot take), until Blight gets his busted add-ons nerfed, MFT should remain in its current state, 3 years we dealt with it while MFT remained in game for 5 months.
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Not the new DH btw.
Notice one thing when MFT gets mentioned and that is that some players will defend it like they did with DH back in the day. But are praising in "victory" at the terrible rework of the SM..
Some of you need to be way less obvious when it comes to defend obvious broken things that you know they are in order to keep your own fun going at the expense of the game health..
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How do you reconcile the two? MFT affects the weakest killers the most, and does nothing for Blight.
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Hot take: it unironically affects blight even less than nurse, since she needs to be even more precise on the second blink because that 3% actually makes enough different for the swing to miss
I'm sure the 3% doesn't make any difference against M1s, that's why you want the endurance effect to be removed. Killers just need to get good /s
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Yall mean videos like this?
you dont even need video evidence, basic math is enough to understand the perk is busted.
20-30% chase extension for holding shift W is ridiculous.
On a 30s chase you get 6 extra seconds from MFT , bringing it up to 36.
Times that by 3 and a single Survivor is buying 18 seconds at a minimum for free just because hes holding shift W.
This is first grade math, you dont need a PHD to do understand that 18 seconds for free per Survivor is extremely busted.
(This doesn't even take into account pallets and windows you made because of MFT causing a chase reset)
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That is a horrible way to look at things and only promotes more tribalism.
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It also doesn't take into account Killers with a modicum of skill being able to identify and circumvent it, as well as exploit it.
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Ah yes, lemme just somehow outskill a survivor in a shift W chase.
Or maybe have the hindsight to have played one of the 6 or 7 killers out of 33 that can mitigate the problem that the 3% haste is.
Any suggestions or opinions containing "get gud" or "play x killer" are on multiple levels of unhealthy and just show extreme bias.
Nobody in their right minds would see a perk that makes over 20 something killers completely unviable and still defend the perk.
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The snag, of course, being that there is not currently a perk in the game that makes over 20 something killers completely unviable.
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but only if you put in the time to learn her power
A whole whopping 2 hours.
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MFT - permanent 3% haste. subtle cheat: the perk.
C33 - 3 second 3% hinder. an iridescent addon. 1.5 seconds of which is eaten up if you use the rush to break a pallet. And the 3% is completely meaningless nonsense while rushing.
Not to say C33 is balanced or anything, but seriously? comparing the two as if their speed effects are equal is delusional.
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What i will Say goes For both Survs and Killers.
What if :
- everyone adapt ? it seems most of us (gamers) are lazy to try
- Use items at your disposal ? most killers have items that can negate +3% ( witch is the subject of the topic but can work on most issues)
- Stop following X streamers Ideas and make your own because they dont have your LVL gameplay and they got issues maybe you dont have.
- Never Balance a Perk around SWF because SoloQ will be left behind .
- and plz ... Why everyone complains everytime for everything we just could enjoy the game as it and let the devs do what they want at least to balance the game.
A player Who just want to have fun Playing Killer and SoloQ.
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Alright name the killers that can mitigate MFT.
Hard counters - Artist,Nurse,blight, wesker
soft counter but still impacted - slinger, huntress, trickster , hag
Am i missing anyone?
The other 25 are forced to chase normally and get 100% screwed by MFT , like myers, pig, ghostface , doctor , freddy , etc
Now, i conservatively said 20 previously because im aware there's certain killers with "close in " abilities like wraith and billy or pseudo anti loop like xeno and trapper, but they still have to chase normally in a tile and get screwed hard shift W chases.
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It depends on how strict we're being here- technically speaking, Trapper hard counters MFT, but it would be kind of misleading to put him on a list. He'd be more like the baseline; somewhat affected by MFT via regular M1 chasing, but not significantly enough that he's any less viable than he typically is.
So, for killers that definitely do not have to care about MFT at all: Nurse, Bubba, Clown, Spirit, Plague (in Corrupt Purge, anyway), Ghostface, Oni, Pyramid Head (insofar as his power is not affected, though to be fair he doesn't have speed or hindered), Blight, Twins (except for the Endurance which they care a lot about), Nemesis, Pinhead, Artist, Sadako, Wesker, kiiiinda Xenomorph? These killers will all notice MFT if a skilled player is using it, but have something in their power that allows them to mitigate it almost entirely in at least most scenarios.
For killers that contextually don't care about MFT, with the right builds or in the right circumstances: Wraith (with uncloak speed addons), Billy (unless he's cucked by a terrible map), Myers (most actually viable builds don't care about MFT, but tbf, not all and his basekit does care), Trickster (just sharpens his feast or famine nature, doesn't actually change it), Huntress (dependant on what LoS blockers are around). Self explanatory; these killers have tools but may not be running them in an MFT game, or only care depending on specifics of what map they're on and what part of that map they're chasing in.
Killers at neutral: Trapper, Freddy (his snares kinda help, but they're not consistent enough), Legion. These killers basically just have to M1 chase, which means MFT is definitely doing something but isn't actively harming their power.
Killers who are actually going to notice MFT, but are still viable: Hag (harder to M1 chase but traps themselves unaffected), Doctor (messes with Shock Therapy timing), Pig (I'd argue her power is more affected by slightly harder M1 chases than the killers in neutral and it's easier to evade her ambush), Demogorgon (easier to juke his Shred, I think. Haven't tested.), Deathslinger (easier to juke for sure), Dredge, Knight. These killers aren't unplayable, but they do have to try noticeably harder or lean harder on ambushing and mindgaming.
I'm exempting Singularity from this list as I'm not entirely sure about him, and Skull Merchant because her new iteration literally has not been played by anyone yet. I'm also focusing more on the 3% Haste element of MFT primarily, because including the Endurance would slightly change this list but pretty much everyone agrees that part should go. The Haste is the contentious part, imo.
So, our list of killers that are rendered unviable is 0, and our list of killers who'll notice but can still do well sits at 7. Significantly lower than 'over 20' even if we soften your claim to the more reasonable "is mildly countered by" or "will notice".
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