Buff decisive strike

You have a free Endurance from the unhooking + free haste + DS + three other slots to fill with more haste and endurance. So if you still die again at that point, it's on you.

Buffing DS would be a huge mistake, because it would make the rather weaker killers even weaker while the strong killers in Nurse and Blight don't mind it. In my opinion, dbd has enough good antitunnle Perks in OTR, DS, DH, and the Rebecca Perk. There would be also the issue that everyone would run DS and killers slugging more which would make the metagame very boring.

I can't speak for other killers but i want to explain why killers - myself included- sometimes (must)tunnle:

1) strong maps like Garden Of Joy and Badham are so painful and terrible for killers. The mindest is kinda "Ok hard match".

2) Genrushing: a Team with three/four toolboxes (toolboxes are still way too strong and need a nerd) that want a quickgame, so I give them a quickgame.

3) Distorion: I love to run Info-Perks like BBQ, LP, and Darkness Revealed. However, if like two/three survivors have Distorion, you are forced to tunnle because you can't find another survivor. It is also the issue that most of my games with Distortion-players are just boring because they like to hide forever.

4) Missing reasons to hook each survivor. In the past we had Bonus BP from BBQ which was a great reason/reward for many killers to hook each survivor and not to tunnle someone out of the game. Now, I don't see the point in hooking each survivor. Of cause, there is the fun part of the Match and I am aware that it is more than frustrating and annoying when you get tunnled out of the game in 2min - I am a Killermain but sometimes I play survivor and know the feeling when I get tunnled even though I have chill teammates.

5) Strong tunnling Killers: Blight and Nurse are already very strong and oppresive. They can easily tunnle one survivor out of the game. As a result, I think these two need a nerf so they are less strong and not that good at tunnling. Pinhead has also a strong Add-On that enables him easy tunnling - I forgot the name but it must be a purple one and this one should get a rework. But don't get me wrong: It's about the Power of these things and not about due to mistakes from survivors like Pyramid head is good at tunnling but only if the survivor gets torment, which is a mistake by the survivor and not an issue that should be addressed. Or if OTR/Basekit endurance-survivors try to take a hit for no reasons -> you give me the chance to tunnle you out of the game. Same goes if the doh-player is sitting in the on the edge of the map or in a deadzone.

Now, I think tunnling could be less of an issue if the maps are more balanced, toolboxes as well as Distortiom get a nerf, when the developers give the killers a reason/reward to hook each survivor once, and if Nurse and Blight get a nerf.

Of cause there are still some unhealthy reasons why killers tunnle like a) Winstreaks (it is so easy to get a +100 Winstreak when you tunnle one survivor out of the match in the first 2 min), b) some players are just sh*t af - I'm so sorry but there are some survivors that want to give the killer a bad feeling but there are also some killers that want to give the survivors a bad feeling. And maybe some more things but it is impossible to remove tunnling completly from the game.

These are my 2 Cent because tunnling is an issue in the metagame.

To 'normalize' the strength of DS, it should do 2 things. 1 (and more importantly), disable power for 5s/gen remaining. No Nurse Blinks for 25s if you tunnel at 5 gens. 2, disable haste effects for the same duration (less important, but still good to do). Clown and Skull Merchant shouldn't get an advantage in tunneling if they get access to their haste effects, nor should any get PWYF benefits or any other haste boosts.

You shouldn't view tunnelling as good and wanted, certainly, but you really shouldn't view tunnelling as targeted harassment, oh my god.

Tunnelling is a tactic often used because it can be the easiest shortcut to value. That is the lens that it should be viewed through, and that lens lends itself well to understanding what should be done about it; it should be weakened and it should have fair counterplay, but it shouldn't be removed outright, both because it can be a valid tactic and because any attempt at removing it would lead to some nasty unintended consequences for killers playing fairly.

To the topic: Buff the DS stun timer back up to five seconds and then survivors will have a pretty reasonable spread of tools to use against tunnelling. I don't think it'd fix the problem outright but it'd definitely be a good next step.

I want to see that, because even the average survivor can dodge a hatchet at medium distance. Have he just started running in a straight line...

... like the Ada in this gif? Because this is the perfect example. The Ada had plenty of options on what to do there. Move behind the wall before running, go to the right and enter the loop in the tile, go behind him... what did she do? Run in a straight line without losing line of sight against a ranged killer.

The only reason you want to buff a perk that does its job and grants you yet another second chance is so it covers for your mistakes even more, so you have to think about what you do even less.

Running in a straight line without even trying to dodge or look back? Of course it would happen. Hell, she would have being downed again soon after no matter the killer with that pathing.

But again, she had plenty of options there more fitting for the situation that just making it easy for the Deathslinger to down her again. So yes, survivor's fault, and I won't say skill issue but more like lack of game sense.

Considering that Decisive Strike only activates in a scenario that we want to be weaker for the killer, wouldn't it make sense to allow it to be strong enough that it'll cover for some degree of poor play on the survivor side?

Otherwise we're basically just saying "git gud" as the solution for tunnelling, and I don't want to assume that's your actual position.

Make it 5 seconds and disable on protection hit. Only problem with pre-nerf DS is bodyblocking with it. Same with OTR.

I'm not sure I'm following. I have to assume you aren't implying that a survivor being hooked at all means they must necessarily be playing badly, right?

Could you clarify before I answer? I don't want to misinterpret your position.

It was you who said "poor play". Good survivors with good game sense doesn't makes poor plays, and if they do at least they would have the enough experience to know they made the wrong call in what they have done.

Who would you referring when arguing that DS should "cover for your poor plays", then? The looping gods that can loop the killer without any problem and are not affected by any mindgame you can pull off?

Besides, again, there is enough perks and mechanics covering for "poor plays" already in the game. No need for any more.

Because everybody was using it, the same as how we "respected" DH when it was the most used perk, as you would assume everybody in the match has it. That doesn't means that the perk was designed so the killer "respect" it.

It was designed to give you another chance if the killer tunneled you. And it does its job. If you go down again 5 seconds later because you have so little game sense that you don't realize that if you run in a straight line without losing LOS against a ranged killer he would get you, again, it's on you.

Nope, that was you- maybe not in those exact words, but that's exactly what you were referring to in that Ada clip. Poor pathing, poor decisions, poor play.

You're also the only one in this conversation who's been referring to being hooked at all as poor play, which seems suspect to me. Obviously players who are playing well and not making huge mistakes are still going to get hooked eventually, so that very clearly doesn't count as poor play, therefore DS won't be covering for "more" poor play as you put it- just the poor play immediately after it triggers.

You ask who I'm referring to when I say poor play, and I'll again point you to that Ada clip. Is it the end of the world if an anti-tunnel perk means that this specific player, the one you could otherwise count on being easy to down, is a less desirable target immediately after they're unhooked?

I'd argue that if anti-tunnel worked, that's exactly what it should mean. You avoid chasing people immediately after they're unhooked even if they make poor decisions and would otherwise be easy to down. Would you have an issue with that outcome?

...So you agree it was you who brought up the notion of poor play? I'm not fighting that concept here, I'm perfectly content to debate with that in play, but it was kinda weird for you to turn it back around on me like it was my framing to begin with.

Here's the snag with your arguments here, though: All of that is in play and tunnelling is still a problem. It's still possible for a killer to gain undue amounts of value considering how much effort they put in versus how much effort the survivor has to put in to counter it. Tunnelling has not yet been fixed, and it still a problem in the game.

DS being stronger would be a healthy change, because it doesn't do anything unless the killer chooses to tunnel - or unless the survivor tries to weaponise it, but considering that's a massive win for the killer, I think we can safely discard it as a possibility for now. It's not super relevant here, I'm sure you'll agree.

There's another thing I kind of want to draw attention to here, which is your last statement. Nobody is suggesting that the game should cover for survivors making poor plays in general. When I brought that up, I was referring specifically and solely to Decisive Strike, so the actual thing being discussed is: Should killers only be punished for tunnelling if the survivor they try to tunnel is more skilled than they are?

I would argue that's already the case, personally. If the survivor is noticeably skilled at looping, they're already not the ones tunnelled off hook that frequently. DS as it is now only punishes killers for trying to tunnel very skilled survivors, and that's redundant. DS, specifically, probably should punish you for trying to tunnel the weak link, because that's where tunnelling is at its most problematic right now.

It's all well and good to say survivors should improve, but that only comes with practice, and the killer being free to tunnel them out because the current anti-tunnel implementation is flawed and only works for the already-skilled severely cuts down how much they can attempt that practice.

Let's say that DS was improved to be a 5-second stun again. Does this affect skilled killers who are facing skilled survivors? No, because in that situation we're self-selecting for killers that are skilled, they're probably not tunnelling anyway and they definitely wouldn't tunnel players who they know are skilled. It'll only affect killers who choose to tunnel players they perceive as weaker, which... is what anti-tunnel should do, surely? It should be a deterrent from chasing someone as soon as they're unhooked, and considering we're specifically talking about DS, there's not even any concern about weaponising it for bodyblocking like there is with Endurance.

I said what I said and I keep saying it. It was you who said that I meant that every single hooked survivor was because poor play when I said that, tho. So stop the mental gymnastics.

Here's the snag with your arguments here, though: Survivors use DS as a tool to block the killer and protect other survivors. Make it stronger, and they would use it as a bully tool even more. So, it won't be a healthy change, but the reverse. Also, adding more safe nets to the game would only make play survivor feel more dull, as the game is doing all the heavy lifting for you without the need of developing any game sense, and would make play killer more frustrating as you are going against that survivor's perks and the game mechanics, not their skill. I won't call that precisely "healthy" for anybody.

Also, your "effort put in it" argument is bogus. As I said, with 10 seconds of free haste + endurance + survivors own perks, the effort the killer needs to put to tunnel that survivors is exactly the how difficult that survivor makes for the killer to down him again. The unhooked survivor can get to a pallet or a TL to make another full chase again, other survivor can help him by body blocking the killer and force him to break chase, etc. And if you play killer, you should know that.

Yes you are, when again, there is plenty of second chances and safe nets for survivors and you want yet another one when he goes down after using all the others.

And at this point, with all the second chances you have even before getting to the point of getting tunneled being a possibility, yes. Not that they aren't already punished in all cases by, again, making it more costly chasing the unhooked survivor than the unhooker, but if the unhooked survivors is not skilled enough to get use of their free gifts or make the dumb decision of staying 4 seconds blocking the killer to use them as a protection hit tool, it is the survivor's fault and can't blame anyone but himself for it. Get unhooked, get the hell out of there as fast as you can to the closest loop, and if the killer has followed you start looping him again. Not have the enough game sense to do that? Get punished for it.

Again, you have failed to justify in any moment why the game should cover for your mistakes. You just keep saying that it should, supporting it with fallacious arguments and trying to shift the argument to another path (the main point of the argument never was if "killers should only be punished against skilled survivors"), but never explained why.

Again, why? How if even tunneling is being done in so much games (I play 50/50 right now, and I can count with one hand the times I had being tunneled out of a game) it affects negatively the gain of game sense or skill? Wouldn't be the other way, as survivors being tunneled every game would have more chances to practice against it and get better and better at countering it?

First, you are assuming that every killer that tunnels is not a good killer after accusing me of saying that every survivor that goes down is because they are bad. Funny.

Second, again, DS is not an "anti-tunnel" mechanic, starting with the killer inability to even know a suvivor have the perk. It is a second (third? Maybe forth depending on the build) chance perk in the case the killer tunnel you. So, even if it is stronger, it won't stop people from tunneling. So, by your own logic, there is nothing to change here.

The only reason that it worked as a "deterrent" for tunneling was the same one as DH was a "deterrent" for not hitting a survivor the moment you had the chance: Because it was the most used perk present in almost every game, so you would assume that everybody has it.

Third, like I said earlier, there is survivors that weaponize DS by body blocking the killer and forcing him to break chase or lose more time already, knowing that even if the killer tries to grab them they can get away. In fact, you can argue that most of the people that use the perk this days is for the sole reason of weaponizing it.

So, again, funny that you said that and even funnier that it never happened to you taking in count you claim to be a killer main.

Well, the stun can be 5 seconds like how it was back in the day? Some time is spent falling off Killer's shoulder anyway so 3 seconds is really pathetic. The conspicuous action and end-game rules should stay just like how it is right now.

The whole purpose of a conspicuous action was to ensure that you’re no longer getting tunneled/not in chase with the killer after being unhooked and I don’t see how is dropping pallets and using a flashlight should be considered one? You’re evading the killer when dropping pallets and using flashlights and I don’t rlly think body blocking should also be considered a CA I mean yeah it’s pretty much a survivor consenting to being tunneled but from my pov just hard tunnel them I mean didn’t they ask for it by bodyblocking? And on top of that wouldn’t this technically be abused by some killers? I mean don’t wanna deal with decisive? Just instantly hit the unhooked survivor and the game just rendered it as a protection hit and their DS deactivated

I think it'd be clearer what you mean if you were to say "getting a save" should be a conspicuous action, which I would actually agree with as a statement.

Clicking the flashlight would be flashlight use, and that should hardly disable your DS or anything. For the other items, it's their associated action - healing and repairing - that counts as a conspicuous action, they disable DS whether the item is in play or not. If you shine your flashlight into the sky, you aren't progressing the game, but if you get a save you definitely are.

Randomly clicking or just like, blinding at a pallet, those shouldn't be conspicuous actions, but saving someone else absolutely should be.

1.- I already told you. Survivor get unhooked, has DS, he starts body blocking the killer to force him to break chase even when he is away chasing someone else. It's not an uncommon thing, specially when confronting a bully squad.

2.- What are you talking about? I'm not even understanding what you mean here. Eitherway, if you get hit with the free BT in place, you get an speed boost from the hit and from the haste it gives you. Enough to gain a lot of distance. The same with any other haste + endurance combo. And if the killer only have to count to 10 to get you, again, most than probably you did something to make it so easy for him. Also, and again, even the devs said that the anti-tunneling system never was intended to guarantee you to be safe.

3.- You still fail to explain why it should be as you are saying. Because again, they would not deter killers from stopping tunneling because that's not the main function of the perk either way. In any case, it would be back to slugging everybody because killers would assume everyone would be using DS. Super healthy for everyone. And again, you have just ignored everything else I said about the "healthiness" of your claims. Also, by your own logic, just use OTR instead, as you yourself said that is a better second chance perk in case of tunneling.

4.- So, what you are saying is that good survivors are tunneled less because they are good, have game sense, and enough experience and skill to not get downed again so easily? Uh...

5.- If you had DS weaponized against you, then why are you asking "how" survivors weaponize it? I'm confused. And again, it is not and never was intended as a deterrent for tunneling. It is a second chance perk that gives you the opportunity to not get hooked two times in a row, which it does pretty well, and what you do with that free escape chance is on you. So, and again, asking for it to be buffed so it is "the anti-tunneling it has to be" is just an excuse to have it cover your mistakes even more than it already does. People still miss the power trip it was playing survivor in the day and want it back, as the current power trip is not enough as some killers can still do something in the game. Simple as that.

6.- Again, in your TL;DR says that it should be "stronger and forgiving than a basekit perk", but you fail to yet again explain why. You also failed to explain why the game should "give lesser skilled players more breathing room", because as I said, making it even easier for them would means the reverse as there would be no need to develop any game sense at all.

In other words, you claim a lot of things, but fail to give a justification for those claims other than "Because it should be" while ignoring every fact against it.