Let's talk about Unsportsmanlike conduct and how it treats players for "killing themselves on hook".
Hi.
As you guys all know about the game rules of DBD (Tho you should check all game rules before playing any game), there is nothing in the game rules about "Survivors DC penalty avoiding" (purposely killing themselves on hook).
You can check here - https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/139-game-rules
It simply states this:
ABOUT DISCONNECTS BANS - DO NOT REPORT
Disconnections are penalized automatically by the disconnection penalty system. Please do not report people for disconnecting; no further action will be taken on these reports.
It's clear that "Killing yourself on hook to prevent the penalty and move on to the next match" should be a part of a Unsportsmanlike conduct, should be reportable, and should end up in a temporary ban if it's done on a regular basis, in terms of "Rage quitting".
Now let's move to the (imo) basic question - why? Or why it should be considered as unsportsmanlike conduct?
If some of you ever played ANY MOBA games like Dota 2, League, Smite, Overwatch 2, etc... You will find the same caterogy, but it might use a different words. Basically - Regular DC's from a match (or rage quitting), Griefing (standing afk, feeding your opponents, Interfering with your teammates game) will result in a temporary ban, which can go longer and longer after relapse.
Why DBD falls in the same category:
Aside from a killer gameplay. Survivor's gameplay unites a Team play or Working as a team. This makes the simple statement about this: By leaving a match (or feeding your opponents and etc), you as a player make the overall expirience from a match worse for other players, that you're playing with. And it should be cought by reporting this player's behaviour.
After recieving enough reports, a player who constantly violating the TOS, should end up in a punishment.
The problem I'm having with all this:
Somehow, "Killing yourself on a hook" is not considered as a reason to report. Imo it should be considered as "Rage quit". It's clear to me that this kind of behaviour is ruining the overall Impression about the game. Especially for newer players.
"I brought this game so If I don't wanna play against a legion, I can freely leave a match" - This is imo, the most ridiculous, selfish and unaware excuse that I sometimes see people bringing in this types of topics, I suppose that never played any MOBA games before, or have no morals and sympathy for any game's matches.
"We have bots now taking over a player, so it should be ok to DC from a match" - As ridiculous as previous one, the game like HotS (Heroes of the Storm), there were the same "bot replacement" but the players were still getting banned for leaving the games. Personally I think the bots are not treating the problem, even for killers. (At least right now)
This behaviour is unacceptable. You can not defend it by any means.
In my opinion, a player can freely leave (DC) from a match only with a few basic reasons:
- (Obviously) Playing against or with a cheater, that prevents players from completing a match.
- Killer (somehow) blocking in the obstacles 2 last survivors with gates are closed. Holding them hostage.
- Bugs and other circumstances that player can not control. (Getting stuck, killer's ability broke or gone and etc...)
- Server issues. That makes the match irritating to play without any control of a player. (Everyone in a match having high ping, server disconnects)
In any way, Mod's opinions are more relevant. Since they more educated in a game's TOS. But I still want to read about your opinions on that topic guys, feel free to write from your hearts!❤️
Comments
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The devs intentionally left the mechanic to instant die on hook by not hitting 2 skill checks. They could have easily have just removed that feature when they reworked 2nd state from button mashing.
You can't really report players for using game mechanics.
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I think it can be alright to just give up on hook sometimes... For example when the match is already over, when one or several teammates are obviously trolling therefore ruining the game for the others and so on and so forth... At least from a moral standpoint the light of ruining other people's game. However I think if the mechanic of dying after missing skill checks or 4% exists then you cannot really complain if people do that... 4% is a stupid mechanic already, same goes for the 2nd phase skill checks, they could just remove them if they wanted to prevent this and if not then it is probably intended...
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Removing the feature would hinder killers as it allows more time for other survivors to rescue the hooked survivor. There’s really no way to force survivors to play out a match that doesn’t negatively impact other players. No other MMO has this issue (or the ability to force its players to play games). DBD definitely won’t be the first.
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I've always been confused by BHVR's stance on this. We have one method of getting out of a match with a built in penalty system, and another method of getting out of the match that is perfectly fine. What's weird is that with the bot replacements the latter "approved" method of leaving a match actually hurts the "team" more.
Like, I think, most players I'd really like this to be looked at. I don't want players penalized if seven minutes into a match they want to get out (at that point its usually because the game is decided or you actually have something to do away from the computer), but I do if they leave within the first few minutes. I'd like either of the following
A) Make hook escapes impossible early in the match (the first few minutes or first few hook states) barring perks/anti-camp mechanic.
B) If BHVR really wants to give option people to leave, give them a free DC button while on the hook so at least a bot stays in the game. Not my preferred choice, but I'd take it.
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Yes you can. Bleeding out all 4 survivors after downing them is just using a game mechanic. No hacks or exploits whatsoever. However the devs have confirmed this is a bannable offense. This doesnt even really effect the outcome of a match, the survivors had already lost. But for some reason hook suicides, which can completely lose a game for the survivors because one wanted out, is not bannable. Either 4 man bleedouts are allowed too, or hook suicides are bannable. it can't be both.
Edit: Disregard this comment, I could not find a source of the devs saying that and Mandy herself has confirmed it is not a bannable offense.
Post edited by caipt on0 -
I'm gonna need a reference to the devs saying this about 4 man slugging. I've never seen the devs respond that this is in any way bannable.
The most common question is whether it's holding the game hostage, and the dev answer has always been 'no, because the game will progress and end naturally, even if it's after 4 minutes'.
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They should just remove kobe's and 2nd stage skill checks all together. They dont really add much. Kobe's are inconsistent, relatively rare, frustrating to go against, and only really serve to prolong a match or grant an unearned opportunity to clutch. And struggle skill checks only exist to make an actual difference between 1st and second stage. None of these things are worth the nonsense of hook suicides.
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After searching, I apologize as I couldnt find the source. So by that logic its probably not bannable but it definitely should be.
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What you forget is that people absolutely have valid reasons to leave the match as quickly as possible.
Some people have emetophobia and have to leave against Plague because it makes them sick. They should not be penalized because they have a negative physical reaction to one out of 30 some killers.
I have to kill myself against Dredge's immediately because their darkness mechanic gives me migraines to play in. It isn't fair to forcfe me to either be penalized or suffer a servere migraine for the remainder of my day. There's no way to turn the darkness off. Unless there's a way for people to bar themselves against going against a killer power that makes them physically sick, people are going to have valid reasons for leaving games.
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While I'm very much in support of better accessibility functions for killers like plague/doctor/dredge/clown etc, the same could be said for things like flashlight blinding and motion sickness (until we get that fov slider) as well. In an ideal world, all of them would be fixed, but the killer specific ones are so intentional they'd require full reworks (or my idea which is to have replacement assets as an option for each killer that causes issues, like muting puke sounds/animations from survivors, make puke rainbow colored like a paintball mode, etc)
BHVR have been fairly receptive to accessibility concerns, even if it takes them a long time to implement them, and some they just can't really do much about. For what its worth I completely agree with you that there should be a way to not have them hinder your ability to participate, but "going next" kinda screws the other 4 people out of a game. Killers like dredge are always going to have the darkness mechanic, as its part of the killer's core dynamic, but I cant really think of any way of changing it without severely nerfing it.
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I think too many people will start to go fully AFK while hooked, and not pay attention to the game at large. If you alt-tab back in and go, 'oh how long was I unhooked for, my BT is gone and the Killer is trying to hook someone else here oh crap'. That is probably what they are trying to avoid by letting you 'play the game' on hook.
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I'm pretty sure a mod replied pretty recently on the forums to someone asking if that exact situation (killer bleeding out 4 survivors for no reason) was bannable, and they said that it wasn't. I believe the reasoning was that you can't prove that the killer doesn't have a reason to do this, the same way you can't prove a survivor isn't actually trying for the 4% or messed up the 2nd phase skillchecks on purpose.
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This is why going for the 4% isn't reportable and isn't going anywhere. BHVR isn't going to devote a bunch of resources and money to policing 4% attempts or completely rework hooks and all the perks that interact with them. It's too big of an ask.
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no this is not a bannable offence!
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this is very true. I've accidentally missed a skill check on the 2nd phase purely due to drinking my coffee and completely forgetting about it :)
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Its just a game
If people want to go next then let them
your life is not gonna change if your dbd match is "ruined" by someone who killed themselves on hook
it that is the case, I have bad news for you
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I mean if i play a game like r6s, cod, and overwatch. Or really any team based game. And feed like my life depends on it. Afk. Or do anything that hampers my team and benefits the other team besides just gettint diffed i guess. I will probably get banned for it. Whether thats appropriate to say me getting hooked once and just deciding to go next and leave my team in a 3v1 at like 4 gens left. Id say it is pretty comparable. But depends on what the devs think i guess.
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haha I feel that, I used to die a lot prior to the second phase rework because i apparently seriously lack rythm and couldn't hit space consistently enough
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The difference is, even the system itself can tell the difference between a missed skill check and an ignored skill check. If i miss a skillcheck, i lose some of my timer, if i completely ignore it twice, i just instantly die regardless of the time left. So the system itself knows if you missed the skillcheck or intentionally did it or not.
Personally i think the 4% mechanic should go away entirely, and the struggle phase be reworked into something else because both lead to this problem.
Easier still though, why not just make so if you let yourself die on hook in an obvious intentional way, that you get the same penalty as if you DCed. This would make people stop doing it and screw over their teammates, because they still get the penalty, so if they want out they might as well just DC because they still get the penalty, and they get out sooner and then the team at least gets a bot to replace them.
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The other point to bring up here is, we treat these things as bannable offenses given that they are literally in the description of the report:
Keep in mind that i found these here, on the official DBD support page: https://support.deadbydaylight.com/hc/en-us/articles/4408586278676-How-to-report-a-player
Specifically this section here: What actions will result in a temporary ban: https://support.deadbydaylight.com/hc/en-us/articles/4408581146516-What-actions-will-result-in-a-temporary-ban-
- Insults, intimidation, hateful speech, repeated harassment
- Working with the opposite team to gain an advantage or grief teammates
- Targeting specific users repeatedly in order to ruin their game experience
- Holding the game hostage
- Advertising exploits
- Exploiting bugs, errors in design, or undocumented features to gain access to what otherwise would not be available or to obtain a competitive advantage
- Advertising exploits
- Lag switching
- Disconnects (leaving the match before killed or sacrificed) - DO NOT REPORT
- Botting
Now if we take out the ones unrelated to this such as cheating, or text-based harassment, or related to streamer type stuff, you have this:
- Working with the opposite team to gain an advantage or grief teammates
- Holding the game hostage
- Disconnects (leaving the match before killed or sacrificed) - DO NOT REPORT
I'd argue that intentionally hook suiciding yourself out of the game actually falls under working with the opposite team, and disconnecting (which is already punished)
The killer's objective is to sacrifice the survivors, so if a survivor intentionally gets themselves sacrificed can you explain how that is NOT working with the opposite team? And the point of the disconnect penalty is obviously to discourage people from disconnecting. So why do they have this way that allows them to get out of the game, and also avoid the punishment? It seems ridiculous to me.
The whole point of making working with the opposite team, and griefing teammate a reportable is because you are ruining the game for them. At least if you DC, you get a bot, and the player gets punished by being unable to queue right away, so you aren't left completely stranded. But hook suicides are doing just that, ruining the game for me.
The amount of times that i have played a game as a survivor, where a survivor goes down 10 seconds into the match (probably because they are standing still because they don't like the map/killer/perks/whatever), and then immediately hook suicides. What exactly am i as a survivor supposed to do there? The game is over at that point, there is no coming back from that unless the killer wants to show some mercy and let people escape. And even doing that just drags the match out when really you just want it to end so you can hopefully get into another one that is going to last.
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Can confirm here that this is not what the report form is referring to, hence it's saying that disconnects are not a reportable offence (although I do understand what you mean due to the way it's even on there).
Regardless, survivors dying on the hook is not a bannable offence nor a reportable one.
And you can't prove that someone died intentionally on the hook, that they missed skill checks on purpose or by accident - hardware failure etc. There's no intention of banning for this.
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Oh no, i got downed the first 20 seconds of the match. Im confident that im gonna get the 4% unhook, a luck mechanic intended in the game. Oops, i went to 2nd. Whatever shall i do? Oh no, my controller died. Oh well. Gg guys. Please dont report me.
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Fair. My thing is dying on hook shouldn't be a mechanic that works like that anyway. Other team games don't give you the option to end your game early because it makes it a wash for the rest of the people. If a survivor can't do these other means like dcing or spamming unhook till their death. They have to do other stuff that actually does break the rules. (Running to the killer. Afking. Purposefully blowing up gens or the like) the self unhook system just lets them screw their team over in a game where a 3v1 just instantly unbalances the match. Sure they are still making the match unbalanced in the other cases. But there you can actually punish them for it. Instead of it being "oh its a blight? Well force myself into second stage and let go. Gl team"
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Dear Mandy, it's basically means that everyone can freely kill themselves on a first hook, and say: "Oh I just tried to 4% at first, then I kept missing skillchecks, oh sorry guys".
I mean, this is ridiculous. Is it not? =)
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I'm guessing that after it will be acknowledged as unbannable offence, you will have 3 out of 4 games with a 1-2 DC's.
I'd love to see how you gonna have fun in this game after a hard day at work or etc... xD
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I have always and will always miss skill checks thanks to my pets. If they want attention they're not taking no for an answer and I can't say no to them anyway. 😂
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I'd say punishing people for being bad is more ridiculous.
You can't force people to play. You can't force people to try. What's next? You want to ban people for doing Archives? Maybe you just want to ban all players who run No Mither?
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I mean i wish most team games had the same approach as dbd (not really) i wish after dying or getting stomped on point one on like overwatch i can just decide "you know what i don't wanna play" but if i farm i get banned. If i dc i get a penalty. And theres no in game option for me to end my suffering early. So most games just say "suck it up, you qued" if you want a asym example. Theres no way to just sacrifice yourself on there either without feeding the enemy.
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The OP mentioned many games that do it perfectly fine.
- DotA
- LoL
- Counter Strike
- Rainbow Six
- The list goes on
All of these games have matches that can last up to an exceeding even an entire HOUR. And if you grief, suicide (feed), quit the game early etc. they will all PUNISH you for doing so with harsh punishments leading to several day ban, or even in some cases permanent bans for doing so repeatedly.
The thing that these games have in common, is that games can last a full HOUR. So, if i'm playing a match of DotA, and i don't like something, or a teammate, or a character i'm going against, or have on my team, or i didn't get the character i wanted or whatever. I have to stick it out for a full HOUR or i get punished.
The difference with DBD? A match lasts maybe 10-15 minutes tops.
So what you are saying is, DBD players are so special that for some reason, when they don't like something in the game, they can't stick it out for 10 minutes and deal with it and then move onto the next game, but the people who play DotA are somehow able to deal with the same kind of thing for over an hour without any issues?
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Can you at least understand the frustration?
Like, come on, you and i both know that 99.9% of the time, if someone sees a spirit or something, and then gets downed 10 seconds later, and then tries to 4% several times, fails, then dies 5 seconds later on the second stage before the match has really had a chance to "begin" that the person did it on purpose.
Yeah ok, so sometimes in exceedingly rare situations, that might not be the case and they are new and don't understand what is going on. But, if i see someone with 2k hours doing it? Do you really truly believe they didn't do it on purpose?
There's an MMR system in place too, can't you like, use MMR and past history to determine if it is happening? It isn't hard to see that the person might do it 2 games, then not do it a 3rd and 4th, then do it again a 5th. Like, in those types of things it is obvious the person is doing it on purpose.
And you still haven't answered the question, what is a survivor supposed to do when their teammate does that? It completely ruins the game for the other 3 people in the match. You do realize that right?
I'm not saying ban someone for doing it one time, i'm saying hold players to the same standard that any other multiplayer game does. If they show a repeated pattern of behavior of doing this over and over again, they should be punished for it in some way. If someone has a keyboard failure, they aren't going to immediately hop back into a game 5 seconds later, they are going to go deal with the hardware failure.
And even in the example of a new player, why not make them take the DC penalty, then have a popup that simply explains what happened and how what they did was wrong, and then guide them over to the tutorial to help them learn what went wrong.
I really think this entire problem would be solved, if you just made it so that way a "hook suicide" counts as a DC in regards to the queue penalty. You'd see this problem mostly go away. You simply make it count as a queue penalty, have a simple popup that explains what happened and why they are punished. Then you'd run into the people who would grief and troll instead, but THOSE ARE bannable offenses, so its much easier to see if someone say, intentionally body blocks someone, then it is if they just suck at hitting skill checks.
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it would be.
but suiciding on hook should just not be a thing. you leave the game by quitting. life happened? there you go.
that was the point op made. or the point made slightly below op... not sure..
and honestly... I don't see the point of suiciding on hook. it might help in those few cases where you want to let you last teammate have a chance at hatch, but probably won't.
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We can't literally force people to play a game. But we can have harsher punishments for people that frequently ragequit.
I still think the best solution is to match the frequent ragequitters with each other. This would allow these people to continue playing the game, but they would be matched with like-minded individuals, that also think it's completely fine to ragequit whenever they want.
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Oh come on, I'm sure you will find a difference between purposely killing yourself on a hook from just being bad.
Yes, I can't force people to play or try, but you know what I can do? Report their bad behaviour and get them banned as it should be, for ruining my games by rage quitting.
As I was doing in ANY MOBA games, that I suppose you haven't played ever, if you keep conducting such behaviour, and make it look "Ok".
No offence, just my personal opinion.
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You know what's crazy, there's not a single game called Dead By Daylight in that list.
Nor is there a single game that's asymm.
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Harsher punishments? My dude the DC penalty is already at 3 days max (which is ridiculous enough) and it adds up quickly, regardless if you intentionally DC or not. What do you want it to be? A week? That would 100% kill the playerbase lmao
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If you are getting yourself a week on DC penalties then you have issues to sort out on your end. Server issues are not that common and in the past when there was a widespread constant server issue going on, the penalties got disabled.
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Semantics. The point they were trying to convey is that punishing quitters is a common practice in online pvp games. You can add other genres to that as well, DBD is an outlier specifically because it doesn't prevent ways of going next and ruining the game in the process (bypassing their own disconnect penalty.) Also note how there is no killer equivalent, barring opening an exit gate once they're powered. Part of why the comparisons make sense is because they affect the team side more than the individual in the asym formula.
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I don't have any issues, stop assuming things you don't know
Post edited by Foempticol on1 -
If a player reach max penalty from DCs, that means only 3 things:
- Player have constant server issues.
- Constant individual internet issues.
- Constant DCs from a matches that they didn't like.
With server or provider, there is no way you or devs will not fix the issue until you reach that max penalty.
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That's why me and a couple of other people are suggesting they reduce the maximum ban time to 30 minutes
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Then there's no reason to want to reduce the max penalty. Anyone getting over an hour penalty has an issue they need to resolved before they commit to playing a multiplayer game.
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It should not go over an hour
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What genre you consider DBD as a whole? Just Asym?
First of all it's a PVP game simply because one side compete with other on the "Arena".
It doesn't matter if there is differences in teams or differences in goals.
In any MOBA PVP games, you will eventually get banned for DCing from your games.
Doesn't matter what side you playing Killer or Survivor - it's not ok to feel free to leave (rage quitt or DC) from a match whenever you please.
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I see no reason why it can't. If you are having constant issues, figure them out. Don't ruin games for other people, because you don't want to fix your own issues.
No reasonable person is hitting over an hour with the current system since the first few disconnects are all under 15 minutes.
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I wouldn't be against giving Killers a way out. Killer bot system would be preferred, but that's probably too much work.
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It’s not an argument of semantics as none of those games are even in the same category (assymetrical) as DBD. Is there another game where one player (killer) can unilaterally decide if another player (survivor) gets to play the game at all?
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Asymm action-horror.
Comparable games currently on the market? TCM. DC penalty? None, you don't even lose XP. I can't, for the life of me, remember if F13 had penalties.
Overwatch, CoD, Battlefield's small modes, Battlefront II, etc etc are all examples of games without DC penalties for their casual queues and they certainly don't punish people for throwing because you can't prove it.
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What makes an asymmetrical game so special that you are granted the privilege of crapping over your team because you don't like something?
Post edited by BoxGhost on5 -
All of those games LITERALLY punish people for throwing all the time in ranked modes.
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Not sure if you've noticed, but DBD isn't some hyper-competitive MOBA.
You just seem so....idk, maybe entitled? Like, you're reporting your teammates or opponents because they do stuff you don't like. You have no idea if they're going for a challenge, if they're physically handicapped or heck, maybe they're just bad. None of those things are bannable and I'm glad they aren't.
It'd be like me reporting my Survivor teammates for going for flashlight saves. It's not optimal and is wasting time, therefore it's throwing and they should be banned.
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