How do you think the devs should handle the issue of tunneling?
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They could make tunnelling outright impossible, by making the most recently-unhooked survivor lose collision for the killer until they do a conspicuous action, or until another survivor is hooked. This would mean they can't be hit by the killer, but also couldn't bodyblock or just sit on gens invincible.
However, if they want to make tunneling impossible, they would need to significantly buff killers as a whole. They'd need to make gens take much longer, or somehow make chases much shorter, neither of which survivors want.
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I agree. We already have the stick (Borrowed Time and anti-tunnel perks), but there's no carrot.
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The reasons are myriad and varied. Some will chalk it up to efficiency, others will make excuses by saying gens go too fast.
There is no singular reason why killers tunnel. To fix all of the reasons why they tunnel would make the game significantly worse. Gens go too fast? Slap those bad boys up to 120 seconds. Maps too big for killers without mobility? Shrink 'em. Loops are too strong? Make them weaker.
With just those 3 changes, killer gameplay is improved. Easy 4ks every round, but I guarantee you killers would still tunnel.
Survivors would have to play perfectly in order to escape, while even a baby killer could get a 4k with the minimum amount of effort.
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I would apply the ruin logic for all slowdown/regression gen perks: deactivation after the first survivor died.
It will not really punish tunneling itself, but killers will not have free win anymore in 3vs1 situation (e.g., pop and 3 remaining pain-res stacks, after one guy was tunneled out)
It may promote more endgame perks (noed, nwo) and people would still need to fight to get their escape in 3vs1, but at least, it will not kill the game after few minutes ; an heathy move overall, imo.
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What would a mechanic that makes it impossible to tunnel even LOOK like?
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There's literally no reward that could be given to a killer that is both balanced and equal to the pressure created by removing one survivor from the match.
4 Survivors. One in chase, three on gens. Hook one, now you have two on gens, one going for the save.
3 Survivors. One in chase, two on gens. Hook one, now you have one on a gen, one going for the save.
It takes 90 seconds to complete a gen solo, compared to the roughly 53 seconds it takes two people. By removing one survivor from the equation, you have permanent slowdown.
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I haven't thought of balancing it perfectly but here is one example. Hooking a different survivor than the previous one 4 times in a row causes all survivors to suffer a 25% action speed penalty. This effect deactivates once a survivor dies and only activates when 4 survivors are alive. This effect deactivates after 5 minutes (to prevent 3 gening).
Post edited by adsads123123123123 on2 -
You have to think about how these effects will interact with other perks. So, a basekit slowdown of 25% stacking with, say, Thana (Which has a max of 20%) that's now 45% slowdown just for not tunneling.
25% is equal to one survivor. While this would be an adequate incentive to not tunnel, it would take survivors far too long to do a generator. This wouldn't go down well with survivors.
This is why I say there is no reward that both incentivises killers to not tunnel and is balanced. Anything short of 25% slowdown is going to result in killers opting to tunnel because it's easier.
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The first thing to do is define tunneling and when it should be addressed.
By tunneling I mean the killer targeting a single survivor and eliminating them with the first 3 hooks of the game. Some people have posts talking about tunneling as if its the expectation that a killer needs to 8 hook to not be considered a tunneler. While I've been in games against survivors who will yell tunnel in the end game chat even if I was at 7 hooks before the first elimination, people who are looking for reasonable ways to make the game better are looking at the first.
Why is it an issue? Well, its not fun for anyone. Even if they win, the other 3 survivors basically sat on gens, while the one chased target either was great at chases, and this was exactly what he wanted, or outmatched and destroyed. If they don't win then you have a one sided match up where the killer slowly picks off the survivors who no longer have a realistic chance.
If something is not considered fun by the overall community, BHVR should address it. How they do it in a balanced way is the question.
I'd absolutely nuke tunneling if I could. Much like the anti-face camp model, if you don't want it in the game, don't address it with perks, just destroy it. If the killers first three hooks are against the same survivor, all other survivors get a 200% boost to gen speeds. This doesn't trigger if a survivor progresses a hook state via not being rescued or bleeding out on the ground.
If the killer hooks at least one other survivor though, the above disappears.
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I think most survivors want their escape rate to be close to 50/50. I just think 100% of survivors want different more fun mechanics to interact with. Dangling from a hook or achieving oneness with the ground as a slug are VERY unfun. If tunnelling is a crutch that killers currently need to achieve any level of success then lets nerf the ######### out of the effectiveness of tunnelling and then rebalance perks, maps, and killer powers until 50/50 escape and kill rate has returned. The game will be better for it.
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I have two ways I would handle tunneling. One way I’ve posted in the Feedbacks and Suggestions board a while back, while another way I thought of recently. I think when addressing anti-tunneling, killer buffs should coincide so you’re not removing an integral part in what allows a killer to win games, without giving anything in return. It’s important to denote that. I don’t recommend either of these 2 ideas unless killers as a whole gain some sort of buff to compensate.
Idea #1:
When a survivor gets unhooked, if the killer so chooses to chase that survivor again, down them and hook them before they hook another survivor first, that survivor will still remain in whatever hook stage they were previously, but just continue the timer from where they were previously.
For example: Killer chases Meg after she’s been unhooked 25 seconds into her first hook stage, downs her and hooks her again, she is still in first hook stage with 35 seconds before she hits second hook stage. She remains in that first hook stage until someone else gets hooked or the 60 seconds pass. If killer chooses to face camp, then that’s when the basekit 100% unhooking mechanic comes into play. It also doesn’t count as another hook event so the killer will still technically only have 1 hook if Meg was the only survivor that they hooked during the game.
To prevent survivors bodyblocking due to hook immunity, if after 10 seconds of being unhooked that survivor takes a protection hit, they automatically go to the next hook stage when they get hooked. I added a 10 second grace period to prevent killers from hitting them directly off hook when an injured teammate rescued them to bypass this mechanic, as 10 seconds is enough time for the unhooked survivor to run away from their teammate and not take a protection hit.
To add to this, a survivor that has been hooked twice in a row will have a base 15 seconds Endurance and Haste as opposed to the standard 10 seconds (of course unless Borrowed Time/Babysitter/etc was in play).
This mechanic could possibly be removed when one survivor has been sacrificed when the game is at a point where it gets more difficult to hook different survivors. Or you can just leave it on if you feel it wouldn’t get in the way.
tl;dr - hooking the same survivor multiple times doesn’t put them in the next hook stage, it only makes them continue the timer from the hook stage they left off on until the killer hooks another survivor. Unhooked survivors who bodyblock due to hook immunity from this mechanic will not get this effect. Survivors also gain 15s Endurance/Haste when they get unhooked after being hooked twice or more in a row.
Idea #2:
If a killer focuses down one survivor and makes it so that one survivor dies before they achieve four hook stages (meaning, they only have three hook stages from one survivor), then generators will take 50s to repair down from 90. This counts even if a survivor kills themselves on hook, since at that point it’s a 3v1 and it will make it more possible for a group of 3 survivors to repair all the gens despite their teammate bailing on them.
Now, if a survivor dies when one of four survivors has yet to be hooked during the trial, the generator timer will go down to 70s from 90s.
If the killer has hooked every survivor at least once and then kills a survivor, the timer remains at 90s.
I was possibly thinking of giving the killer a small buff if they hook every survivor at least once (something like making Grim Embrace basekit), and another bigger buff if they have all four survivors on death hook without killing anyone (maybe like permanent aura reading when outside of 32 meters). Something to really incentivize them to not tunnel and being good sports.
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A 25% action speed penalty is actually still weaker than a survivor dying, which is why I think it's balanced. It's a misconception that killing a survivor results in a 25% reduction in gen speeds. The killer is usually in chase with 1 survivor, so 3 survivors working on gens is usually the maximum. Killing 1 survivor results in 2 survivors working on gens, so in reality, killing a survivor actually results in a 33% gen speed reduction. Though, with 3 survivors, you usually have 1 survivor on a hook, 1 survivor unhooking and healing, and 1 survivor on a gen, so the actual gen speed is lower.
There's the question of why not tunnel if it's still stronger? The outcome of tunnelling is stronger but the method to achieve is weaker. Tunnelling is much harder than just chasing another survivor. Tunnelling requires you to stay near the hook and chase survivors into parts of the map with completed gens, uncleared pallets, and strong loops, which means you can't pressure gens and the chases are harder. You also can't change targets to someone who is easier to down.
Overall, I think the change I suggested is close to tunnelling a survivor out and killers would choose it over tunnelling since it's easier to just hook another person. This change won't end tunnelling but it will significantly reduce it.
You mentioned Thana but you need 4 survivors injured for that, which is extremely diffficult even for Plague and Legion, which is why they don't run the perk. I also mentioned a 5 minute limit to prevent the survivors from being 3 gened.
Post edited by adsads123123123123 on2 -
Nothing really nothing will fix tunneling because there's too many times where killers should tunnel to provide pressure
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There are some problems with these ideas:
What do you do if you get a very immersed survivor squad that is also on comms and makes callouts where you are? Chances are that on a big map you would probably search your ass off for the last person while all the gens go.
What happens if you for example down a meg on RPD main hall, hook them there and then go to the left to check for gens while all survivors are either hiding or working on gens on the right? You go check all the gens on the left meanwhile the meg gets unhooked, healed up and has like 30 seconds on a gen in main hall when you come back and is alone there. Your only choices are to either ignore her or slugg her which means u either lose the gen right away or u lose it after she picked herself up with basekit unbreakable OR you go for her and give the last 3 survivors a huge buff.
For me at least in this situation the killer didnt really tunnel. They made an effort to find someone and just didnt and came back to the meg on a gen and need to stop it yet they would still get punished by that system. Tunneling at least for me would be if you get unhooked and the killer is immidiately glued to you again and doesnt make an effort to find someone else
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People have asked for a 'second objective' for a long time. But that objective apparently:
- Must be mandatory to escape. (Because we have chests already)
- Can't benefit survivors for doing it. (Tried this with boons)
- Can't be a detriment to the killer in any way (tried this with totems/hexes)
- Can't interact with the killer power (tried this with Singularity, Xeno)
So at this point, 'second objective' is just a different way of saying 'more gens'.
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the game is team game to some extent. for killer to tunnel 1 survivor out of the game, you can leave survivor on the hook for whooping 6 minutes. When all your hooks have been used, killer still ultimately needs to down you to kill you out of the game.
This makes it harder to tunnel people out of the game because when you find a weak link/bad survivor on the team, it is much easier to tunnel them out of the game to create early 3vs1. Often when this happens, killer can sometimes have like 3 gens remaining for entire 3vs1. The only bad part is that if your teammate suicides on hook, then you'll lose all hook-states however survivor might be less likely to self-suicide on hook. At that point, if your team suicide at 5 gens, your probably not suppose to win as survivor anyway. if you hook all 4 survivors, everyone dies.
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Devs need to completely cut down tunneling and then have a look on how players would play the game to make further adjustments. But theyre by far to scared to do so.
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IMHO they need to hit the killers where it hurts the most... their blood points and rank. BHVR can code the game in such a way that if the killer downs or hooks someone back to back, or if they go after the unhooked survivor, they will lose either half their blood points when the match is over or if they would have pipped in the match they lose that pip. BHVR CAN do something about the tunneling but they chose not to and it's disgusting.
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They could code that but, more importantly, they can't code a way for you to find a game after no-one wants to play Killer any more.
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Make it not possible and rebalance the game around it.
Tunneling is required against high level survivors because the game simply goes too fast for them. Better would be to make it impossible to "get someone out early" and then balance the game around 4 survivors being in the game longer.
My proposal has always been:
- Scrap the current AFC mechanic (you aren't going to need it)
- Make kindred base kit and make it work through blindness.
- Remove the ability to 4%, all it does is lead to griefing, or RNG causing games to go longer than they should, or for killers to lose due to RNG.
- Rework the luck mechanic now that 4% is removed (maybe tie it to items or skill checks or something)
- All survivors now share the 1st hook state, and only go into second stage after the team's first hook state has been removed.
- Basically, this means that in order to kill a survivor you have to go through 6 hook states minimum before you can eliminate them.
- This also means if you hard tunnel someone, you have to hook them 6 times to kill them
- Camping means you need to wait 6 hook states (a full 6 minutes)
- This basically eliminates camping and tunneling as a strategy to win, because camping for 6 minutes against a team with kindred is going to easily cost you the game. That gives 3 survivors plenty of time to finish 5 gens, 99 the gates, and then go in a for a couple of save attempts
- Only the FIRST hook state is shared, after that survivors each have 2 individual hook states. This means that 1 survivor can't cause you to die on your first hook, you'll always get at least 2 chances.
- Now that camping and tunneling are not effective strategies for winning, now you need to make them not possible for killers who want to be toxic. And you do that by doing this:
- Remove the basekit borrowed time
- Survivors now gain a new status effect called "Ethereal" for 30 seconds after being hooked.
- While a survivor is ethereal:
- They see the aura of all other survivors
- They are invisible to the killer
- They make no noise
- They make no scratch marks
- They have no collision with other players or killer objects (like traps) (no hitbox)
- They are unable to perform any action other that heal or be healed.
- They move at 200% movement speed.
- Basically, they get spirit's power.
- Deactivates in endgame.
- The idea here is that, after being unhooked, you have plenty of time to go run to a teammate away from the killer and get healed so you can get back into the game. The killer CAN'T tunnel you, because they don't know where you went, and you can't abuse that to body block for the person who just saved you. On top of that, the killer now knows that you effectively have a 30 second timeout where you can't be working on gens. This means the killer knows they have a little time to go chase someone else and they KNOW you can't be hard tunneling a gen without getting healed because you can't do anything else anyway.
Then after all that, if facecamping is still a problem (it shouldn't be) but if it is, you add in this mechanic:
- If the killer stands within 8 meters of a hook, the survivor is teleported to a hook that is closest to the teammate that is furthest away from the killer. (Basically, if the killer camps you, you get teleported away, and by the time the killer gets to you, your teammate should have unhooked you, giving you that ethereal status meaning the killer can't tunnel you.
From there, you probably need to buff killers in some way, probably by doing something to gen speeds or an early trial warmup to get the game started. etc.
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Fair point. Probably deactivate it if the unhooked survivor does a conspicuous action similarly to DS or give it a time limit.
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The overall efficiency of each survivor is equal to 25%. Killing a survivor results in 25% less efficiency, as one survivor is worth 25%. The team is 25% less efficient when they are a man down. With 4 people, you can have one in chase, and a 2-1 split on gens. With 3 people, you can have 1 in chase and 2 working gens either separately or together. The team is significantly less likely to escape when they are a man down because they are less efficient.
Your suggestion may indeed alleviate tunneling, but is an equally terrible outcome. You've suggested basekit 4-stack Thana, with the activation condition of Grim Embrace. A 25% reduction is massive for a basekit change. The killrate would go up, while the escape rate would drop. It already takes 90 seconds to complete a generator solo. A 25% reduction increases that by a whole 30 seconds. That's now 2 minutes to complete a generator solo. Assuming my math is correct, it would take around 83 seconds for two survivors to complete a generator together. That is, in no way, balanced.
Thana was just the first perk that came to mind, but there are other perks that reduce the repair efficiency that would stack with this basekit change. The point was never how feasible getting 4 stacks of Thana is, the point was that a basekit action speed penalty debuff stacks with other debuffs.
If I were to flip this and suggest survivors get a buff to action speed if someone is tunneled out of the game, killers would be the first to denounce it as punishing them for playing efficiently.
Rewarding the killer for not tunneling by giving them extra BP or emblem score won't work since they don't care about that. They also aren't going to care about a basekit grim embrace because the payoff just isn't the same as eliminating someone and having permanent slowdown.
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Killer bots.
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they could re-introduce the rift to normal matches in some sense:
with the rifts active, they can be used to enter into a smaller space then emerage at a different rift of your choosing at a different position on the map. Since survivors could enter the rift faster than killers, this would give them a chance to enter, and exit, effectively teleporting to a different position on the map.
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Suicide on hooks and DC are mild signs of ``no one wants to play Survivor.''
The reason is because of the killer's unpleasant tactics such as tunneling and slugging
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In the current game state, we can already tunnel a survivor out and achieve a stronger version of this Thana you're describing. Complaining about the action speed penalty doesn't make sense when a stronger version of it is already in the game, which survivors don't complain about. When survivors complain about tunnelling, they're complaining about dying fast, being unable to play, and not having fun. They're not complaining about the action speed penalty afterwards that results from dying. This is based on comments I've read about tunnelling https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/3499887039228967158/
Post edited by adsads123123123123 on0 -
At this point I think tunneling is a problem we simply have to live with.
Devs have already done things to mitigate this problem like Borrowed Time basekit, the significant buff to Off the Record, and some killer perks which try to promote not tunneling like Pain Resonance and Grim Embrace.
In my opinion if the devs do more things to adress the problem it would affect the balance, mostly considering that sometimes the tunneling is necessary, for example, only two gens remaining and the four survivors still alive or the endgame.
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Ah, of course. Making one portion of the player-base extinct and replacing them with bots seems like such a great way for Behaviour to make money.
No, it's a significant sign of entitlement. Something doesn't immediately go their way, die on hook and go next. They want to play, they just don't want any kind of challenge. If they didn't want to play, they wouldn't keep re-queuing.
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Just to illustrate: You're suggesting a 25% action speed penalty, which is pretty heavy, and... It's still not enough.
As @Kaitsja mentions, in the general gameplay loop, not all survivors can be on gens. Even if you have only one survivor in chase and the others all on gens, going from 4 to 3 survivors would effectively be going from 3 to 2 survivors on gens, max. That's a 33% cut for 3 hooks, as opposed to a 25% cut for 4 hooks. So the reward is greater, and the cost is lower.
Even with that much of an action speed penalty, tunnelling would still be stronger.
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592820/#Comment_3592820
I think it's silly to think that nothing should be implemented just because it won't stop tunnelling completely. That's like saying they should remove base kit borrowed time because people are still tunnelling.
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Suicides on hook and DCs are a sign of players being babies who need to find something better to do with their time. The vast majority of suicides and DCs happen because you found a survivor at the beginning of the game. That's all it takes in most cases. It happens with every killer no matter how you play. People quit as soon as one thing doesn't go how they want it to.
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I’ve seen Survivors suicide on hook because their team opted to rush gens over saving them.
I guess this is the Killer’s fault too?
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That's not what I'm trying to say.
I'm trying to point out that trying to use incentives to lure killers away from tunnelling is practically impossible without also utterly demolishing game balance. Tunnelling is simply overpowered, so making non-tunnelling the more appealing option would require buffing killers to such a point that survivors have almost no chance of winning.
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Devs need to find a way to make tunneling way less rewarding, and going for different survivors more rewarding. Such as maybe gaining some kind of boost for not hooking the same survivor twice, and maybe I guess they could make it so if a killer hooks the same survivor twice, other survivors gain a boost in completing gens faster.
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I don't think tunnelling is overpowered. It's more like the bare minimum you need to do to compete with strong teams. They also could nerf tunnelling more so that a weaker reward is required to be comparable.
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Alot of the problem seems to be buffs and even nerfs to stats may tend to mess with perks and mechanics maybe consider bringing back the original hatch game. 1 more generator completion than survivors on the field and a purple or better key. It makes the killer focus on scanning for generators and other survivors forcing them to care about the rest of the game. If they don't they risk some1 having a key or finding a key (also bringing back usefulness to searching boxes and perks for such things) also giving survivors motivation to start expanding and using those perks to. Spice the game back up. : )
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People aren't complaining about the reduction in efficiency after someone's been tunneled out because that reduction in efficiency would happen even if the killer didn't tunnel.
But what you're suggesting is that for 1 hook per survivor, the survivors get a 25% debuff to action speed.
Now, let's assume the killer is a standard M1 killer running Gift of Pain and Dying Light. 3 Stacks of Dying Light is 9%. Gift of Pain is 16%. Combined with your idea of 25% for 4 unique hooks, that's a 57.33% penalty or 0.57 charges per second, assuming my math is correct. That's now 157 seconds to complete a generator solo.
To make it clear, the point isn't how feasible this is. The point is that there is no simple fix to tunneling that doesn't remove killer agency, provides sufficient incentive or reward to not tunnel, and is also balanced.
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The longer they tunnel someone fresh off hook the more their vision goes black and once the survivor is a safe distance it comes back.
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Those are terrible perks no one runs. You keep giving me these examples but I already told you that when you tunnel someone out, there is at minimum a 33% reduction in gen speeds, so if someone tunneled and ran the perks you mentioned, it would be a 65% reduction in gen speeds. Yet no one is doing this or complaining about it.
Another solution could be that when you hook 4 different survivors and 4 survivors are alive, a random completed gen is sabotaged undoing all its progress and all generators are blocked for 30 seconds. There are 5 gens. A 25% increase in gen times would be equivalent to 1.25 gens. Note that killing a survivor also reduces action speed.
Also, even if the solution doesn't stop tunnelling completely, I think it's silly to think that nothing should be implemented. That's like saying they should remove base kit borrowed time because people are still tunnelling.
Post edited by adsads123123123123 on0 -
Tunneling is The Nature of The Beast, there is no way to address tuneeling with the current state the game is in. Everytime BHVR tries to address tunneling it gets worse mainly because of core game issues such as gen times, map/killer/perk designs, unnessesary buffs/nerfs to perk etc.
The slowest the gens ever were was back when we had Ruin 1.0 (Red Skill Checks), and killers only tunneled toxic/annoying/attention seeking survivors. But than we entered "The Era of Casuals" because people were gen tapping because apparently red skill checks were too hard to hit even though they were the reason why I got good at skill checks in general.
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Again, you are missing the point. What you are suggesting is not balanced. How much clearer do I need to be?
When someone is tunneled out, it results in the match slowing down because there are less survivors on gens, reducing their efficiency without actually affecting how long it takes to complete a generator.
When someone is tunneled out, it still takes 90 seconds to complete a generator solo. That doesn't change. What changes is the amount of people that can be working on gens. So, no, it doesn't result in a 33% reduction in gen speeds.
Your suggestion is to increase gen times via a debuff. Your second suggestion is extremely unbalanced. A basekit effect for not tunneling that undoes a completed generator, resetting it to zero and blocks all generators for 30 seconds. For either of your suggestions to be balanced, survivors would need something equally strong for not genrushing and even that would destroy the overall balance of the game.
Tunneling needs to be addressed, sure, but it isn't worth destroying the game's balance to do so.
As for basekit BT, that was implemented to address an entirely different issue which was that survivors would get farmed off-hook by their teammates who would go for unsafe rescues without running BT. It was incredibly frustrating to have no agency in the matter. You would get unhooked, immediately get downed again, and put back on the hook.
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I like a good chase, while the one God guy in solo que is far more interesting to chase then the potatoes of solo que
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At this point we can state that the hook system is a failure. Other games similar to DBD may not have succeeded, but they have deal with this situation better giving the survivors a single chance.
My solution is simple, make the survivors endure more hits (let's say 4 hits), limiting the amount they can heal (let's say 3 out of those 4). But when they are hooked they die and are out of the game. No more camping, no more tunneling... if you are not able to win the chase, you die. A flashlight save or taking a hit to prevent a hook will become more impactful and fun. And every hit the killer makes will feel more productive, since you can't fully heal back.
Many perks and powers would need major changes, but this is the only solution. The current system is a fight against the clock, if the survivors have three chances the killer has no reason to not kill one asap.
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In essence, you're arguing that tunnelling in its current form is unbalanced. I don't think it is unbalanced when most killers are doing it and kill rates are near their target of 60%. I've provided solutions that are comparable to tunnelling someone out. Whether tunnelling is balanced is another discussion, which I don't care enough to argue about.
As for basekit BT, that was implemented to address an entirely different issue which was that survivors would get farmed off-hook by their teammates who would go for unsafe rescues without running BT. It was incredibly frustrating to have no agency in the matter. You would get unhooked, immediately get downed again, and put back on the hook.
Nope. In the developer update where they introduced base kit Borrowed Time, they specifically said it was implemented to address camping and tunnelling.
There's also no reason to stop at removing base kit Borrowed Time. Since tunnelling is still happening, we should just remove every anti-tunnel perk, e.g. OTR and DS.
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Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not arguing that tunneling is unbalanced. It's unfun, period. You are arguing that your suggestions are fine because tunneling is stronger. Fixing tunneling by giving the killer a reward for not tunneling that is equal to tunneling someone out just creates a new problem. Your suggestions are unbalanced. Tunneling is not. See the difference?
Being farmed off hook by a teammate was what is known as survivor-induced tunneling. It's still tunneling, but the reason for it was a teammate not running BT and going for unsafe rescues. It's easier to not call it tunneling because the killer is expected to capitalise on survivor mistakes, and not doing so would be tantamount to throwing.
It really doesn't matter what they put in the developer update. Those of us who were around before basekit BT know that being farmed by teammates was one of the top complaints, and basekit BT was implemented as a result of that.
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The only thing that would solve "tunneling" is a respawn ticket pool similar to what the game 'Depth' had. Were that the case, it wouldn't matter how many times the killer went after the same person, because nobody would be eliminated from the match until the ticket pool is empty and by the time the pool became empty, the gens would be long done or the survivors are outplayed by the killer.
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"Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not arguing that tunneling is unbalanced. It's unfun, period. You are arguing that your suggestions are fine because tunneling is stronger. Fixing tunneling by giving the killer a reward for not tunneling that is equal to tunneling someone out just creates a new problem. Your suggestions are unbalanced. Tunneling is not. See the difference?"
No, I don't. If tunnelling is balanced, how is an effect weaker than tunnelling unbalanced?
"Being farmed off hook by a teammate was what is known as survivor-induced tunneling. It's still tunneling, but the reason for it was a teammate not running BT and going for unsafe rescues. It's easier to not call it tunneling because the killer is expected to capitalise on survivor mistakes, and not doing so would be tantamount to throwing."
It really doesn't matter what they put in the developer update. Those of us who were around before basekit BT know that being farmed by teammates was one of the top complaints, and basekit BT was implemented as a result of that."
Tunnelling is going for the same survivor multiple times to kill them fast. You can call it hook farming or w/e but it still falls within the definition of tunnelling.
Back then, most survivors had DS and there was still a high risk of BT. Going for the unhooked survivor was risky. If they did it, they were knowingly tunnelling.
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Tunneling is balanced, but unfun. It comes down to a matter of skill. At an intermediate skill level, you're likely to lose at least 3 gens by time you get your first kill if you're tunneling. It's high-risk, high-reward. Pick the wrong survivor to tunnel, and you're walking away with a 1k at best.
What you're proposing is zero risk, maximum reward. For just four unique hooks, survivors end up with a 25% debuff to action speed. There's no risk here.
Then there's your second suggestion, which is to undo all the progress invested into a completed generator and then block all generators for 30 seconds. Where's the risk? There is none. There's only maximum reward. Even with all of that, you can still choose to tunnel.
I don't think you're understanding just how terrible those suggestions are. You have zero consideration for the other side and only think about how best to incentivise killers to not tunnel. There is no simple solution. The solution to tunneling needs to be something that is fair for both sides. There needs to be appropriate counterplay, and it can't be too strong. That's what it means for something to be balanced.
When someone is tunneled out, the action speed doesn't change. What changes is the number of people that can be on generators at any given time. With four people, the most that can realistically be on generators is three. Minus one survivor, now it's two. Minus one, now it's one. I cannot make it any easier to understand than that.
Tunneling is intentionally going for the same survivor repeatedly. While hook farming technically fit the definition of tunneling, people didn't call it out as tunneling because it's not the killer's fault you had dumb teammates. DS was common, sure, but people liked to save their DS for the endgame. BT was also common, but given that this was before SBMM was implemented, you could have several games where you had dumb teammates.
If you still don't get it by this point, I'll sum it up for you. Tunneling = Balanced, but unfun. Your suggestions = Unbalanced, unfun, overpowered.
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So you're saying you won't lose 3 gens by the time you hook 4 unique survivors against a good team? So wrong. Otz tested Grim Embrace on every killer and on average it activated with 0-2 gens left. In most of the games where it activated earlier, he already won and Grim Embrace didn't influence the outcome significantly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUWTCtrvfb8.
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Otz is high MMR. The average player isn't high MMR. At high MMR, survivors rarely make mistakes which is why tunneling is necessary. The average player isn't high MMR and makes plenty of mistakes.
I never stated that you wouldn't lose 3 gens by time you get four unique hooks against a good a team. Against a "good team", you're likely to lose all your gens if you don't tunnel, but unless you're at high mmr (which you won't be as a casual player) you're about as likely to go against a "good team" as the casual survivor is to go against a god nurse. While it does happen, it doesn't happen often enough to really matter.
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