Only killers should be punished for forcing their objectives?
While whole community crying about tunneling, i want to ask: why it's bad that killer forces his objectives, but "oh well what else should we do", when survivors do the same?
Completely ignore everything in game because of 4 Resi, 4 Adrens? Oh yeah, these 4-5 minutes matches are completely fair
I'm so tired of being punished for non-tunneling with 4 Adrens, really. (No, Terminus is not good perk against it and i don't want undeserved kills because of NOED)
4 toolboxes with BNP? Sure thing, gen tunneling doesn't exist you stopid killah mains
3 gens done by first hook every second game? 8% of killer's objectives vs 60% of survivor's objectives? Oh your chases are bad. What, it's *popular killer main streamer* match? Oh, survivors are just better than
I mean, all these questions are rhetorical, i know how it's going on both sides and why it's a case. All i want is so people remember that both sides can complete their task crazy fast. And if you want to punish one side for doing their job on a game level, you can't don't do the same for other.
So when i read something crazy like "make basekit DS 10 seconds on both hooks without consp. actions" and don't see "also basekit 60 sec Deadlock and 50% pain res" from some people here pretending both sides players, I always laugh really well from that.
Game really need to be slightly slower on both sides imo. But it also can't be "party game", when game is literally one side competing another and both want to win.
Comments
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Generators have no feelings but survivors does. So generators will not cry after you finish to repair them.
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If we're talking about optimal play, yes, Survivors have been "punished" for "forcing their objectives", albeit through an influx of information Perks for Killer.
If Survivors want to maximize their time efficiency, they want to be in as few chases for as long as possible, while being on generators for as long as possible. To do that, play stealthily to limit a Killer to surveying your area for longer, which gives other survivors more time on other generators, and increases the time chase resources remain. Only once in chase, go hard with it.
Boring AF for Killer when done well and why I'm glad so many Aura/scream perks have been added over time. Also most players seem to find stealth play-style somewhat boring and actively seek chases.
I do find it interesting how most people seem to view Killing a survivor as goalpost and not an individual Hook. Goes to show that Killer is lacking in PvE "checkpoints" like survivors have with Generators.
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Ah, yeah, so when killers have 2-3 hooks and game is over, his feelings don't matter.
Same as we worried about "new players", but only if they are survivors. New killer player? Oh, remember this, this this and that, don't do this and this, also you will be punished by this and that.
Also feeling an argument that has nothing to do with the balance of the game.
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Information do nothing against good survivors when you have 32m of TR, no stealth, no mobility and weak chase. Also voice comms completely deny even this. So, yeah, you can punish being injured on some best killers, but even on best killers there is no possible punishment for staying injured on gens across whole map with 4 Adrens.
I completely agree about last paragraph. We need to shift our focus from kills to the number of hooks, maybe. Or maybe they'll come up with an even more interesting concept.
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There are four survivors and one killer. So any complaining off the bat is going to be slanted towards favoring survivors, there are simply more of them. And the devs will cater to that side because there are more of them and it’s easier to sell them cosmetics.
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The game will never be balanced in the eye of average killers
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Information lets you chew through map resources (pallets) faster by engaging in more chases creating deadzones more quickly to make up for a lack of mobility/chase. I never said anything about being Injured, but stealth play also lets survivors stay uninjured even longer before they get injured in the first place, exacerbating your issue of a lack of punishment when Injured.
And yeah, I do hope they add an additional "checkpoint" system for Killer, tying it with Hook states might make spreading Hooks more lucrative, but something that is more general that takes into account Injured Survivors/Pallet stuns/ and Hook states might give rise to more alternate playstyles.
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The devs could absolutely balance the game for the average killer player: every survivor starts the game on a hook in the basement. That MIGHT slow down the early game enough so that 6 gens don't get done in 10 seconds and the killer can actually enjoy the game.
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I lowkey miss the DS + UB + BT + exhaustion perk meta. Why? Because it left nearly no room for gen rushing perks. Also, if you didn't tunnel, camp, or slug you frequently invalidated 75% of the survivor perks in the lobby. I planned to play that way anyway, so getting an indirect reward for it was nice.
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Lots of complaints about genrush but are they satisfied when their game is over in 4 minutes because survivors kill themselves on hook or tunnneled the first survivor out so everyone else just dc's or gives up.
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i'm sorry i can't take any complaint about "gen tunneling" seriously. sure the most efficient survivor teams that spend every second on generators can be overwhelming but saying tunneling for that instead of "gen rushing" just feels like trying to create an equivalence between a killer making sure one player doesn't get to play the game and... survivors making sure a generator doesn't get to play the game?
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The quality of survivor game also depends on queue and how aggressively does killer resort to getting a single survivor out asap.
When survivors struggle too much, they can rely on basekits and each other. When killer struggles - no help is offered. It's only logical for killers to make sure it's not them who struggle and even now the best way to achieve such outcome is to get one player out of the match.
It won't change until the game balance becomes more dynamic for both sides like being based on their current performance. In survivor's case it could be tied to hooks, for killers it could be the generator count. Gens vs Kills is bad and only promotes extremes for both sides.
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Same.
Essentially most survivors in my trials only had Dead Hard available for them to use, and maybe WGLF if they were in need of points. Everything else had no use at all, and that felt good as killer.
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The only thing im gonna say is the amount of rules being introduced to this game i fear for any future players. For those who don't know. There was a streamer tourney years ago which most of the streamers were first-time players. The amount of rules they saw the game had to give them that you just "had to know" (and some of those tourney rules are now mechanics like no camping or tunneling) And the more that gets added that a killer has to tip-toe around. Also im saying this as a person who doesnt deploy these strategies. But this is also coming from a person from the time where none of these hard mechanics existed. You could pretty much play how ya wanted. Its definitely simpler on the survivor end because the entity doesnt really step in to stop them on a basekit level like it does to impede the killer.
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op's point is if solely focusing objective isn't frowned upon for survivor side, it also shouldn't be for killers. it's not about feelings of gens lmao it's just people trying to win so the equivalence here is not the "tunnel" target and its feelings whatsoever, it's what you almost need to do in order to win. you skip heals and anything else most of the time as survivor for gens and you get your kills asap as killer. personally i just wish tunneling wasn't needed in majority of matches (and possible) to win and the game was balanced around that but, yeah. you just know you hamper yourself by not tunneling for absolutely no reason; you lose the game as killer and think to yourself "i would've won this if i made the correct decisions" and that honestly sucks.
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Despite what this forum would have you believe, not all of your killers matches, in fact the vast majority of your matches, aren't against a 4 men SWF with 4 BNPs and Garden of Joy offerings communicating like it's a tournament.
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Yeah the term "gen tunneling" is silly and there is no real equivalency between a gen being complete and a survivor being eliminated in terms of game outcome for a player. Losing a gen or two is not the same as being eliminated.
But the idea that being eliminated means you "don't get to play the game" has to change. Elimination is part of the game it may come early or it may come late but its part of the game.
Accepting that you may be eliminated early is a big part of DBD because the threat of elimination, especially early elimination, is what you are fleeing from. Its the whole point of playing survivor.
While giving people tools to better counter early elimination in its most egregious forms (face camping at game start, chasing the same survivor off hook) isn't a bad idea no matter how much people want to sell it as punishing killers for doing their objective. Under no circumstances should they remove the threat of early elimination from DBD.
Being eliminated early doesn't mean you "didn't get to play" it means you failed to evade/escape the killer and got the game you deserved as a result.
That intrinsic threat is one of the best parts of DBD and it will slip into eternal blandness the moment its no longer a reality of playing DBD.
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Having not read past the OP, there are no undeserved kills in dbd.
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The only time it bothers me on the Survivor side is in two cases. If I am in a group of friends and do not get to be actively playing is the first. The second is if there was a lot of bp to be gained from offerings. That sweet reward being ripped away is painful.
I agree the points and piping needs to be adjusted for the killer side. If it was weighted more towards amount of hooks or landed attacks it might shift priorities from needing a sacrifice to active engagement.
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"Tunneling" is derived from "tunnel vision," which has no differentiation regarding the sentience of the target.
Its literally just a term to mean "focusing on one thing and ignoring others." The pvp/pve difference in usage doesn't automatically make it a misnomer.
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Pretty much this.
The killer's play style has a more direct impact on their opponents.
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You are absolutely right, but the semantics of definitions and word use aside. Losing a gen or 2 in game is really not the equivalent of being eliminated.
Given the tendency for people to make simple equivalencies, generally without much thought involved, means using the term "gen tunneling" does kind of imply an equivalency to what players define as "tunneling" aka being chased again off hook. (I've used this term myself when it felt appropriate but in the context of this thread it seems off).
Frankly I think, like most "internet speak", "tunneling" is just ridiculous jargon and by giving the gameplay of being chased and hooked again a label, it simply created a generalized excuse that can be thrown around anytime anyone gets eliminated for any reason.
Failed to escape and died in game... well you must have been tunneled.
Its overuse as a negative trope in a series of subjective and ill defined circumstances results in it being almost as meaningless as the word toxic these days.
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Oh I don't think the elimination aspect is similar at all, but the nomenclature is correct. Trying to ascribe it specifically to only include survivors is colloquial usage at best. I also don't think killers are trying to dehumanize the impact tunneling has on a player when they use it, they're simply using it to state "my opponent is putting their objective before anything else" which is accurate in terms of its usage.
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More specifically, the killer completely determines the gameplay in its entirety. Everything in the match revolves around the killer.
If the killer isn't actively giving the survivors something to do (chase, unhooks, healing, etc) they will do gens.
Standing near a hook, chasing only one survivor, especially if you're terrible at chase, means there are at least 2 survivors doing gens the whole game. That's not spreading pressure, but it feels like most killers lack object permanence these days and seen shocked that gens are getting done while they focus attention on tunneling one person, or on literal furniture (gens or hooks).
I miss the days before 6.1 when kicking gens 'wasn't worth it' and killers focused on staying in chase every second of the match to maintain pressure on survivors.
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killers have feeling when the gens are all done by 2nd hook how you think the killer feels?
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Is getting complained at really getting punished for doing something?
You can play like an ass and ignore the chat if you really want to, regardless of what side you're on.
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that's how most play why there is so many complains threads.
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The great divide. "4 players the BNP and toolboxes".... where on earth in Soloq do you ever see that? In a year of playing I haven't seen it, and lately when I play Soloq nope, as Killer though yep and I can tell their a team or at least a 3 person SWF. The nerf around SWF's because they are the strongest and abuse the most and they are generally the most toxic on turn causes the killers to become toxic, which causes videos to be uploaded and shows new players this is how you play. It's a vicious cycle and those that have been playing can adapt but when they nerf much needed perks specific for Soloq that's when the people leave.
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Again totally agree.
Just differentiating here between focusing on objective for killer vs survivor. The topic being "why are killers punished for trying to eliminate players quickly but survivors aren't punished for trying to finish gens quickly".
The simple answer is killers aren't. A player can "tunnel" another player out to their heart's content, in fact it often pays to do so.
Choosing not to because it may hurt the feelings of another player, whom doesn't understand that early elimination is a thing and they should do their best to avoid it, is just gimping oneself.
Sure there are some built in abilities now that make eliminating someone early a lil more difficult but they aren't game breaking and are designed purely to maximize a survivor's game potential even if targeted while still offering the killer choice on whom to eliminate. (I personally don't think base kit abilities are the answer and are kind of a lazy band aid but that's a different topic).
The day killers lose power to choose whom to eliminate is the day we can say they are punishing players for trying to complete their objective. That creates a scenario where survivors post hook are completely safe, which is bad because it eliminates threat from the killer rendering the game mute.
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Survivors ARE punished as ######### for 'forcing their objective' by getting ######### BP and depipping in those games. Which is also what they get when killers hard tunnel one out immediately.
Killers are 'punished' by people calling them dicks and hurting their feelings.
That you see these things as equivalent should spark some introspection.
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I personally hate it when I queue up as a generator and get tunneled out early. It's like I barely had time to power on.
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That's not right. If I am held hostage by a group of survivors that only hide for 60 minutes, then I surely didn't "completely determine the gameplay in its entirety".
The same goes for survivors that limit interaction by finishing the gens in under 5 minutes. The killer does not determine that they don't want any interaction in that situation.
Both sides have a big impact on how the match goes. Only, a killer has about 4 times the impact of a single survivor. So for the survivors to match that, they need to work together (can happen in solo queue but mostly only happens in SWF).
The funny thing about gen kicks now is that they aren't "worth it". You will not be able to stall by simply kicking gens anymore. Just like pre 6.1.0. Every good regression perk now only works when a killer does actually progress. That's even more than you could say for Ruin. Ruin worked as soon as you started to chase survivors off gens but it didn't take a down for it to do its magic. The question is: How in the world do you get downs / hooks without chasing?
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Tunnelling is not 'doing objective before anything else'. The killer is expected to constantly be on their objective. Tunnelling is where one survivor becomes the sole focus, that's why it's called 'tunnelling'. A killer that is constantly doing objective before anything else can just as easily get three hooks on different survivors as three hooks on one survivor.
'Gen tunnelling' is a new term coined specifically to draw up a false equivalence in an effort to get tunnelling off the hook. If survivors were to 'tunnel' a gen, they'd be incredibly easy to stop. Survivors can't work on a gen while the killer is on that gen, simple as.
As for the topic at hand: I do want to point out that we've had
- Boons killed off
- Healing nerfed
- Very powerful intel perks
- Plenty of complaints about survivors hiding
- No adequate solution to unhook denial
If survivors aren't allowed to heal, boon, hide, and sometimes even unhook, what are they supposed to do, other than gens?
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Thats most likely the worst comparison ive ever seen. Good job.
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How is blight being punished by hard tunneling at 5 gens some clueless dwight in soloq ?
Its the most optimal playstyle to win, how exactly are killers being punished for that?
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Yeah, the current slowdown perks do not compare to Ruin, but I honestly think nothing ever will. Especially the first two versions of Ruin (1.3.1 and 2.6.0).
Those two perks grinded the game to a halt because survivors would go hunt for the totem, even if it was possible to power through Ruin's effect. Reworked Ruin used in conjunction with the original Undying also had a similar effect. It is a perk that reached the top of the killer meta with three different versions of itself.
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There's a couple problems with this rhetoric that I can see.
The first is the big one, and the one some people have already pointed out: Tunnelling a survivor out of the match directly affects a human player's ability to play the game. Generators being done quickly does not stop the killer from playing, it just makes the match harder. There is something to be said about how chases and dying are part of the game, but if a survivor wants to do anything other than chase when they're being tunnelled, they're completely outta luck, so it still warrants discussion.
Genrushing is what "gen tunnelling" is, and that difference in language does actually matter for once. It makes it clear that what's happening on the survivor side is actually rushing their objective, versus the killer side targeting one player over others.
Which leads me to my second point: The killer is not at all punished for 'forcing their objective'. Even if we were to ignore that anti-tunnel tools are a little weaker than they should be, your objective is to kill all four survivors, not to focus one guy down. If you get one guy dead because you tunnelled them, and it took long enough that the gens get done and the other three escape... you haven't forced your objective, you've failed your objective. Tunnelling is not required to win, but it's also not always even a good strategy if you can't guarantee those downs are fast.
To me, forcing the objective as the killer role is spreading pressure as much as possible. It's keeping survivors occupied and harrying them away from their objective, not getting tunnel vision on one of four objectives to the detriment of others. This is another reason that tunnelling and genrushing shouldn't be compared directly; they aren't even both examples of rushing the objective.
Third, while I do think that there are some ways of making generators a little too fast (pretty much exclusively toolboxes, honestly), it's honestly kinda hard to genuinely genrush at the moment. If you don't have a very specific genrush build it's basically impossible, gen speeds are such that the killer has a lot of input over the speed of the trial... if they are playing their objective smartly and not trying to focus one person out, anyway. If they're doing that, or they're trying to camp hooks, the gens are gonna go by quite quick.
Fourth, I want to highlight that it's a little silly to complain about getting to the endgame frequently but also stalwartly refuse to use any endgame perks, and for silly reasons to boot. Terminus obviously helps against Adrenaline, it stops half of the perk's effects from working, and NOED doesn't give free kills- it's just a spike of lethality.
Finally, I want to cap off by focusing on the part where you say that "three gens are done by your first hook every other game" - quotes for reference, not to sound too aggressive, hope that's clear. I would like to ask, in good faith, how are you adjusting to try and counter that? Do you swap out any perks, or attempt any different strategies? It's definitely possible for the first few generators to fly by very quickly, I won't deny that, but it's not entirely out of your control.
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Mods, when you change (for some reason) the title of the post, can you at least keep its original meaning? Especially when half of the forum is not even trying to read the content?
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The "tunneled" survivor is playing the game until dead or escape just like all survivors. Keeping survivors alive all game is a very stupid strategy for killer. Of course going back to the same gen killer just kicked is gen tunneling there is no need to make excuses for one side and attack the other. Play both roles and understand both sides you play to win not to make sure the opponent have fun or win.
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The killers objective is to kill, so yes, killing one player as fast as possible is doing the objective before anything else (spreading pressure, protecting gens, etc.) The presence of alternative means of death (moris, sadako condemn, PH rite, tombstone myers, etc) is further proof that the objective is to kill, while hooks are simply the means to that end 90% of the time. Your inability to accept that is the only thing that makes it a false equivalence. As for
If survivors were to 'tunnel' a gen, they'd be incredibly easy to stopThey would be, if the killer could be in four places at once. But they can't, and even the best spread pressure is generally going to have at least 1 survivor unhindered to just hold m1 and hit the occasional skill check. This isn't to say that survivors aren't supposed to work on gens when they have the time, or even that tunneling gens is inherently bad, its just to say that such thing exists, and that there are survivors who will put gen progress over other things like saving teammates (aka tunneling the gens.)
You're acting under the assumption that the term is used specifically to say its a bad thing that survivors do, since thats how you feel about killers tunneling. It's a neutral term that describes a playstyle that involves tunnelvision on an objective.
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The way I see it is that the community somehow decided that killers are some sort of Dungeon Master that has to ensure their players have fun. The killer isnt a DM, but an opponent thats as free to follow their goals as survivors are, which includes killing survivors.
People would call me crazy if i demanded to be giving a minimum lifespan of my choice in other games in which you can get killed early. Imagine complaining about not getting a a chance by others to grab a gun before getting gunned down.
I think the problem is that the community is seriously contemplating about adding punishments for killers technically just playing the game and ignoring that survivors are doing the same things as killers.
Edit: removed putting words and apparantly lasagna into OP's mouth.Apologies.
Post edited by Raptorrotas on8 -
At the end of the day, as killer i have a lot of tools at my disposal to win a match. Even if 2/3 survivors escape, I can make decent BP. The first person tunnelled out is getting like 5k.
the vast majority of people that play this game are soloQ. Your 1 match with players more skilled then you shouldn’t dictate any changes. I played killer for hours yesterday and lost 1 match. It’s seriously never been easier to play killer.
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I missed the original title. What was it?
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Agree, and this is the thing to me; most of the time, hard tunneling is just so unnecessary. A lot of people have worked themselves into the mind set of "I have to tunnel to win", but you really don't in most cases. Most games are against at least partial solo queue players (and a good percentage of even "high mmr" matches have a sprinkling of potatoes in them), and you can play pretty casually and do well.
I literally never tunnel to start matches, and still 4K (or 3K and let the last surv go) about half the time.
I'm not saying killers shouldn't ever tunnel, just that going into every game with the intent to tunnel out the first surv they find is egregiously unnecessary, and quite frankly really lame. It says they are terrified of losing and aren't confident they can win any other way.
And yeah, teams coming into matches with souped up tool boxes with the plan to just slam the gens out as fast as humanly possible is also quite lame, but in my experience it's also far less common than killers just tunneling out the first surv without thought.
I think a lot of killers can't wrap their brains around the fact that losing 2-3 gens early is pretty standard even in wins, and it's at that point that the game really starts.
Of course the reality a lot of people don't like to face is that they're not playing at some elite tier where sweating your nuts off is necessary to compete. You can play with some discretion on either side and still win. Let the match breathe for a few minutes and match the energy your opponent is bringing; the game is so much more enjoyable that way.
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Do you really believe what you said?
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They would be, if the killer could be in four places at once.
What do you mean 'four places at once'? The killer doesn't tunnel four survivors at the same time. Actual gen tunnelling would involve survivors all ignoring all other gens bar one.
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the problem is, DH, DS and BT wasn´t anti tunnel and anti camp perks, but chase perks, in the past BT was terror radius based and DS activate aat the start of the match
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Tunneling gens doesn't necessarily mean one specific gen, it means putting gens before all other side objectives (hook saves, body blocks, healing, etc.) Maybe thats where we're not seeing eye to eye.
The only way your definition of tunneling a gen would apply would be if survivors were trying to get it done before it could be pop'd/PR'd/etc. I see the term used more as "gens before friends."
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Tunneling gens doesn't necessarily mean one specific gen, it means putting gens before all other side objectives (hook saves, body blocks, healing, etc.) Maybe thats where we're not seeing eye to eye.
Oooh.
You mean genrushing.
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People used DS as genrush perk back then because it made survivors functionally invincible for 60 seconds at a time.
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