Can we expect losing pips stop being a thing any time soon or do we have to wait YEARS?
This was mentioned to be a thing the devs are looking into but as always is pretty hard and confusing to figure out when will we see anything regarding the topic. So...?
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I dont think this is a problem.
Post edited by Rizzo on2 -
"It's not a problem for me so it's not a problem."
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In theory the developers could add this today because all they have to do is setting the blackpip in silver, gold, and iri to zero. Since they did not this already, I highly doubt they will do this for reasons. However, it could also be that they will do a hole rework of the system which is why they did not imply this already because they want to release all at one time. If this is the case, maybe we will get more information on the anniversary event since there is no mention of this in the roadmap for the first half of 2024.
This is my guess. I'd love to see a fairer system of pipping since sometimes it is really unfair (e.g. u loop the killer for 5 gens and gets no pip or play a quick and successful game and get no pip)
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In the last Reddit ama they confirmed this is something they will be looking into - though haven’t confirmed if or what they are gonna do about it. But it’s definitely brought up to their attention..
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I think that it should stay a thing, but they should make pipping up easier, because in higher ranks it is far too difficult to rank up.
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Why exactly should be depipping an issue?
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Because it pushes people (especially on survivor) to play even sweatier if they want to rank up since it's harder, especially in red ranks (by far way harder than killer). It would tune down lots of frustrations for a lot of people that want to just achieve iri 1 every month and see that they can't for reasons that are not in their hand. It will literally not hurt anybody to remove depipping and would just remove one frustrating part of the game that has no reason to be there.
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I've never had issues with depipping as killer. If I get washed so bad that the game decides I lose a pip then so be it. However solo q survivor is a different story. Too many games have a survivor giving up outright, or the lack of communication leads to people being left on hook. It can be frustrating to load in against a killer and see the first survivor "go next" on first hook. It makes safety pipping at higher grades a challenge, and gaining a pip against a competent killer unlikely. Pips and grades are supposed to be indicative of playtime per season. The only reason a pip should be lost is if you DC (though I'd argue the pip should remain since that would just be another reason to give up on hook and not let the team have a bot).
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I still think depipping shouldn't be a thing. You can't do anything about it if you get tunneled out since you won't get anything but boldness as survivor and you are not only losing the game (which is fine, who cares), you're also going to lose progress and you literally could do 0 things about it.
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Depipping as killer is not as common as on survivor. This post especially is regarding survivor's emblem system and pipping and depipping on that role in particual.
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From a game design point of view, depipping adds important stakes to the game. Think of Poker without an ante. If there is no chance of losing, you just fold every hand and don't bother playing unless you have a good hand.
If there are no stakes, then the whole grade system each season is kinda pointless. Might as well just jack up the bloodpoints awarded every game and chop it out entirely.
So as annoying as depipping is, it has to exist for the rewards of getting to iri1 to mean anything. That being said, the requirements of pipping in tbe iridescent leagues are kinda obnoxious.
I can get a game where I'm tunneled hard, somehow survive, and still depip because I didn't get enough heals, saves and gen repairs. Similarly I can get a 3k and depip because 3 survivors gave up immediately on hook and 1 got hatch, so I didn't get enough chases, hits and hooks.
To my mind depipping should still exist, but I wouldn't be too upset to see the safety pip bar lowered a notch or 2. Either that or grant the survivor additonal survival points for time in the trial at least. That would help.
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I don’t know why you try to dive so deep into something as simple as this topic is. It’s a terrible design especially on survivor, you physically can’t get the requirements the emblem system is build on. It’s just awful and outdated and punishes people for things out of their control at all. Fair if pipping is hard, but depipping is just awful. That was the point of making it impossible to derank once the ranks and marchmaking were changed, because the emblem system can’t be more flawed.
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Even if it is a priority, I feel like it is not a very important priority, especially compared to the reason for folks to Depip purposely. They do it to get pair in matchmaking servers with the most inexperienced killers for a easy GG match; despite the fact that current matchmaking system is design to make that impossible and that piping doesn't matter besides BP gain every month.
If you want players to be engaging and less incentives to depip; you can simple gives players the ability to DC without penalties (which will never happen nor will it be a healthy change), you could offer more BP time spend in the match and less on wanting to rage quit or kill themselves on hook. Or simply, deal with it; as some players are simply ignorant solo players whom don't care if they are not having fun and don't want to play with sportsmanship or team work involved, nor even care if they are depiping or not.
Like I said, it not a important priority to fix; but rather a effect cause by imbalance matchmaking and lack ot incentives to play and have fun.
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I'm just pointing out there are reasons for depipping to exist, and not everyone outright hates depipping (at least not in the fashion to where it should be removed). Climbing the ladder is a challenge, and a challenge only works as a challenge if you can lose. Without the ability to lose, its purely a grind with no stakes.
Yes, depipping sucks... you're not supposed to like depipping, its a counterbalance to the high of getting 2 pips. However you can't have the highs without the lows, the lows in fact are what define the highs.
If you study game design, your intrinsic motivation to play a game is at its strongest when you're close to reaching a goal, but haven't reached it yet... every single rank is a goal. The point of depipping is set stakes to keep you playing and invested in winning, especially when you're just a pip away to the next rank.
Do you play to win harder when you're 1 pip away from ranking up? Of course you do. Do you play more chill when you dont have a pip and cant possibly lise one? Of course you do. Everyone does, because that's the psychological effect pips provide.
So what I'm saying is, if you remove depiping, you may as well just remove the whole grading system entirely and just grant more blood points rewards from the end game. Without depips the system is pointless, and I'm not saying that to be condecending, I'm being serious. If you don't want depips, remove the entire grading system completely, because it has no function without them.
Post edited by UndeddJester on2 -
So long as the game is designed in a way where a player can be almost entirely prevented from playing the game for reasons completely outside of their own control, there is no reason for depipping to exist. It is an unfair punishment that does not encourage improvement, it does not encourage anything except additional stress and frustration.
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You are missing the whole point of you having no control over pipping, and which is more concerning and frustrating, over losing pips and you're trying to justify it being a thing which I will disagree with no matter what since it makes 0 sense with the approach they tried to achieve with not being able to derank + criteria for emblem system is outdated as hell and pushes boring and uninteractive gameplay in some categories for both sides (clearest example is Unbroken emblem for survivor). It's just awfully designed overall and needs to be improved.
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Exactly this. Like okay don't give me a pip for those unlucky games, but being able to lose 4 pips if you happen to have this kind of games (which is the most likely thing to happen, especially in solo Q due to several factors) on iri 2 is insane and feels awful and almost makes a lot of people don't want to even bother playing this game until the next month (good opportunity to remind people it's meant to be a silly party game and people just want their points at the end of the season since at least their games were pretty awful, they want to have at least that).
I do not understand what do people find so bad about removing a frustrating part of the game that will harm nobody if it stops existing. Like if you are happy depipping more power to you, but most people don't find it fair in 90% of their games and it's been asked to stop being a thing for so long now, especially since the introduction of the bloodpoints rewards.
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I do understand, and I'm not saying you're wrong about the issues with de-pipping.... I actually do agree that depipping is not set up well currently... but my reasoning for it is not that de-pipping feels bad, or is overly punishing for people who can't invest the time. What I actually believe is that the REAL bloodpoint objectives of the game are not particularly in line with how survivors or killers tend to play the game, so to rank up, you have to play in a weird and awkward way to try and secure points, rather than win the game.
I wrote a big post on about my epiphany about DBD objectives here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/402823/my-game-primary-objectives-epiphany-the-real-reason-for-the-soloq-swf-gap-et-al#latest
I won't ask you to read it, cause it's long, so the short version is that survivors are highly rewarded for escapes, allied unhooks, stuns and blinds. Generators don't really give you much, only a maximum of 1250 points, plus whatever you got for skill checks (which isn't much). So playing to "win the game" for your team as survivor is not really beneficial to you. The big points gains, come from getting unhooks, stunning and blinding the killer, and at end game, you're better off leaving your teammates to die than possibly getting yourself killed trying to save them. Most survivors do try to crank gens, and at end game try to save other survivors, the prevailing idea being "4 survivors escaping is a survivor win"... but that isn't actualyl your objective. A lot of survivors will sacrifice themselves to ensure 3 of their teammates will escape, but you are actually punished for doing this... letting 3 die and escaping yourself is actually far better for you in terms of points and pips. If you want to pip as survivor, surviving the trial is your paramount goal... if you're being tunneled, drawing the killer to gens being repaired to tempt them off tunneling you is actually better for YOUR survival. I'm not saying you should be required to do this... but this is the reality of how you avoid losing pips.
Similarly Killers are not particularly rewarded for getting a 4k by killing people as fast as possible... they are rewarded for getting hooks, chases and hits (thematically inflicting as much pain, fear and lost hope as possible), but because tunneling is the most effective means of gaining control against the speed of which survivors can complete generators, the risk of trying for more points is greatly outweighed by the likelyhood of everyone escaping if you don't try and kill everyone as fast as possible. This is why as a killer to rank up in iri, you usually have to 'farm' survivors for hooks if you get the chance before you kill them.
Knowing this, I'm not sure what I'd recommend.
I don't believe removing de-pipping is a sensible solution. It still is a time sink, so removing de-pips doesn't change the fact people who can't invest the time still need to invest the time, and ultimately if you want to pip, you'll still need to change your style and be more selfish regardless. The only resolution to avoid these problems would be to remove the grades entirely and just grant more points in general from each trial you play. I don't particularly want that, however the issue to my mind is not de-pipping, its the disproportionate rewards for trying to win the game.... but as I stated in my big post linked above... when you look at DBD through the lens of what the actual objectives of each side are, BHVR seem to have stuck to the idea that every survivor should at least have the option to play for themselves.
Thematically... throwing a teammate under the bus to save yourself is not an invalid method of trying to keep yourself alive. It's like that old saying "It's impossible to outrun a bear... but you don't need to outrun the bear... you only need to outrun the slowest person".
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Yeah I guess you're right... Idk I just think because you can't derank out of certain ranks, it doesn't matter, but I guess yeah getting tunneled out is the issue. There's an idea going around in the suggestion thread that survivors that are tunneled out should get a bloodpoint bonus, which then would prevent getting tunneled from losing pips at all.
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I don't think de-pipping is the solution to all the flaws and shortcomings of the Emblem system. There's plenty of conversation to be had about that. I just want it removed because it's the most overtly frustrating flaw of the system. Even if we reworked it, DbD will still be a game where you can be hooked first and hardcore camped and tunneled until you are dead. Or left to die on hook by teammates who don't bother saving you. Or stabbed to death in the first 3 minutes by a Tombstone Myers. Having the game penalize me after experiencing something like that is needlessly aggravating to my player experience. Not pipping is one thing, but having pips from previous games taken away from me after a bad match is adding insult to injury.
It just sucks, and I can't think of any reason for it to stay.
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Yeah, I agree it sucks. Mikey especially is brutal... but if you're gonna remove de-pips, might as well remove the whole thing. There is no incentive to climb up the ladder other than blood points. There is no reason to have checkpoints or stages, because the grade doesn't mean anything, as there is no possibility of losing.
It may as well just be a blood point tally, like a pot you duplicate your score into. At the end of the season, however far you filled it, that's your reward at the end. It's effectively what the grade system becomes.
There is also the point that although I imagine the effect is small, removing depips also encourages players to leave whenever they play against a killer they don't like even more. At least if they stand to lose a pip, they have an incentive to play it out.
Again my point of just increasing the rewards per game is the better solution. If you still stand to get 40k bloodpoints, even after getting completely smashed against a killer you hate, you're more likely to stick out the game. Whereas if you need to 'pip', it's better to just leave and try for a more favourable match up.
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I mean yes, that's the only material incentive, but the other incentive is succeeding in climbing the ladder. It's not guaranteed, and as established not an easy thing to do, succeeding at completing the challenge in of itself is an incentive.
I realise this is might aound like arguing semantics, and ultimately its not really an important enough part the game to argue about vehermently... but the point I'm consistently trying to get across here is the grade system isn't just a time spent farm. The grade system is a challenge, and a challenge you can fail.
Imagine a platform game where in order to progress through a stage you only had to make a jump one time, and for every jump you made, your progress is immediate saved as a checkpoint. Kirby on the Wii basically did this, and it's not well thought of as a game, because you basically can't fail. You put in enough time you're guaranteed to get there eventually. Whereas previous installments of the Kirby games send you back to a specific checkpoint if you fail, and is much more highly regarded, cause succeeding actually means something.
Now if you want to say, I just want my bloodpoints, I don't want to be challenged and completing a run through the grading system doesn't matter to me, then fair enough. That's not an invalid point to make. However my argument is if you're gonna remove the challenge of the grading system, by virtue of the fact you can't lose pips, there's no point having it. You might as well remove it completely and just grant more points in general.
Why need to charge up your rank through the levels, if there is no possibility of regression? Might as well just give the points out immediately and cut out the middle man.
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Ok, well it's not a part of the game I am passionate about, and I have no intention of being a jerk about it, that is not my goal at all, so I will drop it after this post and accept agreeing to disagree... but you do realise the contradiction in what you're saying? How can you say it's not a challenge, and in the same paragraph say that your skill hasn't dropped (implying it takes skill to climb), but it's a slap in the face whenever you lose a pip (implying you lost, and thus your progression towards completion went backwards)?
Surely the challenge is, in each tier of each grade, you have to consistently score highly in games enough times to earn enough pips to rank up to the next grade, if you don't score highly, you risk losing progress to your next grade. You have until the 13th of each month to succeed enough times to get to iri 1, and if not that, as high a rank as you can get. If you play less games, you have less chances... but either way you still need to be scoring higher scores in your games more often than you don't, implying you are performing consistently well vs. the players that are around your MMR (assuming MMR works).
You say it's not a challenge, despite the fact there are scenarios that you highlight as making it very hard for you to score highly. How is that not a challenge? It might be a crap challenge, it might be cheap and unfair, and those are perfectly fine things to complain about... but the fact you can lose progress, the fact you can fail to advance your rank and you have a time limit to complete it, must make it a challenge by definition, surely?
I completely understand the arguments put forward here, you can get tunneled, you can go up against Tombstone Myers, you can have games that are just bad luck or where the killer fails to exert anywhere near enough pressure and you just don't get any good opportunites to score. I've highlighted myself you can "win" and still depip, which is ridiculous. These are beyond your control and genuine complaints you can have about how pips are granted...
What I'm trying to get across is you are trying to solve the annoyance of these things that cause you to de-pip, by removing the chance of de-pipping, instead of solving the unfairness of these problems. This is known as a side effect solution, you aren't addressing the actual problem, you are bypassing the problem by removing something that itself, is not a problem. Like if I play absolutely terribly, lose all my chases instantly, do not heal or save a single person, do not progress gens, do not stun or blind killer at any point, and end up getting sacrificed without even getting 1000 points in any category, shouldn't I de-pip? Logically I should... because I played really badly... thus my progress to ranking up should logically go backwards...
It's like I'm not saying anything controversial here... if you can't lose, you don't have a game. I'm not defending grades and de-pipping, you're free to argue that grades shouldn't be a part of the game, you don't want to depip, and players should just be rewarded for playing each season. Thats not an unreasonable suggestion given the problems of how you can de-pip. In fact, a pretty strong argument is to say that the grade system is something that takes more time than skill, considering your that your skill is theoretically on the same level as your opponents, which makes your winning chances a complete crap shoot, but because your lower bound is -1, and your upper bound is +2, eventually you will get there with enough games (it would be worth pointing out the point of thie grade system is to keep your playing more often, but this has gone on long enough).
However if the goal is to "improve" the grade system, removing de-pips doesn't improve the grade system, it makes it redundant and pointless to the point yeah, it should just be removed entirely. The only counter anyone has given me thus far, is de-pipping feels horrible, and is unfair a lot of the time.... but that isn't a problem of de-pipping, that is a problem of those gameplay elements being unfair within the grading system. Why would pipping ever matter, if it can't lose progress? Why even pip at all?
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Its not a problem for good players. I always reached iri one wothout noticing it. this whole post is just crying.
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Feels like the general reason for leaving depips in the game is so that players who play till iri 1 would have to play more games overall be it Killer or Survivor which would keep queue times healthy
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I sometimes lose pips for doing too good as killer/survivor as well.
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Before bots were added, I once had a game where my whole team DC'd at the start, leaving me alone. And the killer found hatch. I still managed to open doors and escape but because I had barely gotten to play the trial, I depipped.
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