Only killers should be punished for forcing their objectives?

Eh, kinda?

Certainly, you should at least be chasing someone by the time they're back on a generator, because even if they don't stop to heal that's going to take a few seconds. I don't think you need to have 100% uptime on this loop because the amount of damage it does to survivor's efficiency overall is enough that you can afford lulls where progress actually happens-- especially if you're running slowdown perks, then you're undoing some of that progress when you start the loop back up again.

A big thing to remember when conceptualising this kind of thing is that stopping generators from progressing is a tool, not a goal. Survivors getting some generators done is a given, you can't stop them from doing it. With that in mind, your goal is to slow it down enough that you're burning through map resources and hook states, to make each successive generator even slower than it already would've been naturally, to make each chase faster, to get closer to winning...

Again, the macro matters, a lot. Things like using up map resources and shrinking the effective play area by selectively ignoring certain generators heighten your lethality as the game progresses, instead of putting you on the back foot because survivors are closer to their objective than you are to yours.

I'm being vague on purpose, by the way, because this isn't a single tactic or playstyle, it's just killer fundamentals. It's broadly applicable to a bunch of different playstyles and tactics- you can enable this by opting for stealth and punishing survivors that don't heal, or you can build to aggressively chew through resources and leave survivors nothing to work with, and so on and so forth. You don't need to perform like a god to get these things working, either, if you're in a fairly matched game (and I know that's not a given, but we should probably assume it for discussions like these) then you're gonna get a lot done just by keeping survivors occupied.

Permanent uptime is just the amount you're aiming for if you were theoretically playing perfectly. Close enough should be well, close enough since both sides aren't going to be perfect.

To be more clear, I didn't mean before they progress gens at all as an entire team, I meant the particular survivor that was hooked and the one who went for the save are back on gens. As you said, there will always be at least one person on a gen so they will always be progressing.

I agree macro matters a lot, and never disagreed with that statement. It just didn't sound like enough to make up for an extra pair of free hands while you're in chase. But we already addressed that as far as I can tell. That's shouldn't be the case too often or for too long.

Being vague is perfectly understandable. Things like this can't really be given a super amount of detail without writing a collage dissertation on the game lol. Which almost no one wants to do. That's why even if I was asking for chase times, I wanted a rough general average estimate, not 1 exact number; and I got that answer. Even if it was in a different way then expected.

If you need to tunnel to stand a chance you don't deserve that MMR and you're boosted. The game is balanced to the point you can go for 10-12 hooks every match with players on your skill level.

Incentives don't work, only punishments.

Not my words, just what has been expressed to me in the thread.

Who is saying you need to get everyone on death hook or else its tunneling? Its a long thread and maybe I missed it, but you seem to have a very extreme definition of tunneling.

This is the problem with threads like this where people talk about tunneling without clarifying what they mean. People who favor the killer side seem to think the survivor side is asking that everyone be hooked twice before anyone is killed. Survivors meanwhile are usually saying that its a problem if the killer just hooks the same player 3 times in a row and ignores everyone else.

"Who is saying you need to get everyone on death hook or else its tunneling? Its a long thread and maybe I missed it, but you seem to have a very extreme definition of tunneling."

Survivors have. The ones on my team, the ones when I play killer, the ones I've talked to over voice, the ones online. Everywhere I've been I've seen these type of complaints, and they're not a small amount, it's common enough. Again, in my experience. It's not explicitly "get everyone to death hook", but its close enough.

I don't care if the killer tunnels when I play survivor. So I'm going off what others define as "the tunneling problem", since I'm not the one with the issue.

As for the 10-12 hooks thing, that has been asserted as something the killer can and should aim to do in every match in this thread. Not sure if you disagree with that or not.

I listen to reasonable requests to play for fun. Reasonably, you don't need to tunnel (in my opinion, I guess) in 99% of games.

Obviously, there will be people who accuse you of camping or tunneling or whatever no matter what. It's like a Killer accusing me of using speed hacks as Survivor. Some people just don't deal with losing well and they aren't to be taken seriously. But reasonable people asking reasonably to have a fun match? I'm cool with it.

Tunneling is used so loosely these days half the time people are arguing about different stuff.

I was in a Lobby where a Blight hooked Survivor A and went after Survivor B who was lurking near the hook. I unhooked A and A proceeded to run to the other corner of the map without healing (I had empathy).

The Blight downs and hooks B quickly, sees A at the other side of the map thanks to bbq and goes after him (I was hiding near hooked B to get the save and Survivor D had distortion). A ends up dead and accuses the Blight of tunneling in the endgame chat.

From A’s perspective, they got unhooked, ran to the other side of the map and the Blight comes after them before they even finished healing so they would feel like they were tunneled, however from my perspective, the Blight had downed and hooked someone and just went for the next target they saw on the map.

At this point, people probably have their own specific idea of what tunneling is and will call foul when someone doesn’t play by their definition of tunneling. I’ve had to re-down a freshly unhooked Survivor lurking about for a pallet save and get accused of being a sweaty tunneler because I have eyes and know what they were planning.

I agree, but who decides what's reasonable?

The players asking for more or less hook spread do think they're being reasonable (usually). If we say players should go by their own definition of reasonable then we're back to square 1 of "tunneling to win is reasonable" and "no it's not". Regardless of which version they mean, 3 hooks in a row or otherwise.

We can't say general sentiment, because that's all over the place. Me and you might agree on this speed of elimination, but others won't. To them, we'd be unreasonable, it'd be too slow or too fast.

I don't think there's really a realistic solution for that. Many have just taken the attitude of "play however you want" for this reason, amongst others. As long as it's not intentional BM, I understand that perspective as well.

I don't really disagree with any of this. I just want to say, it's not just "these days" it's always been like that since I started playing years ago. So in your example it'd be like:

"You tunneled!"

"What? I hooked a whole other survivor before I chased you again."

"Yeah, but I just got unhooked so that's tunneling. You had 2 other survivors you could have looked for, but you came for me."

"You were the only survivor I could find."

"Still a tunneler. You should have kept looking for the others."

I've seen that conversation play out so many times for so long... and now I feel old lol.

My opinion is:

If the survivors intend to be toxic and deny you to do anything, you have the right to tunnel, camp and slug.

But if the survivors are just playing normally, play normally as well.

See, people did bring anti-tunnel perks. But then it got nerfed because the pickrate was too high.

Now it's bad enough that even if you do get tunnelled and the killer faceplants into it, it doesn't do enough to really offset it, or in the case of OTR, it doesn't work at all if the killer tunnels hard enough.

If you nerf anti-tunnel badly enough, the new anti-tunnel just becomes genrush. Instead of DS/OTR, just bring Hyperfocus/Stakeout, toolboxes, BNPs, etc, and pray you're not the first one to be spotted.

Don't think the game can ever be truly balanced, off the bat it's a 4v1 what else needs to be said. I just hope at some point more people than not will be able to enjoy the game.

Blight and Nurse both needs a full rework

But under that philosophy you can't really say anything when a player plays in a way you don't personally agree with. A lot of players also don't like that so they don't want to subscribe to that idea.

Unless you are trying to hold me in a game you're pretty much all good with (I do my best to reserve my anger at design issues for the game designers), but that isn't exactly BHVR's design philosophy. They throw a mix of elements into the game, points, pips, escapes (and whether you only count yourself or the team as your win condition) and let players sort it out however they like (and hope MMR compensates on the matchmaking). Unfortunately, its a design that breeds toxicity as it leads to different players entering a match with different perspectives on what the goal is (and then we throw archives and sweaty addons into the mix).

If you don't take it too seriously it works out as a weird sandbox type experience.

Or an average Ghostface against an average survivor team with 16 meta perks, 4 toolboxes and 4 BNPs.

The average Blight also isn't very good, nor is he popular for the average player because he's hard to play basekit. Afaik at least.

That's 1 perk, and there were still people complaining about "needing to take it" for the same reason. More anti-tunnel exist besides DS. Like OTR.

Wdym it doesn't work?

4 slowdowns and the best add-ons and tunneling and playing Blight/Nurse/Wesker? Not often afaik.

As you said, "it happens" but not very frequently. 4 slowdowns alone is a lot to ask and many consider that overkill and use some tracking or chase perks. Otherwise the build is considered too narrowly focused and you're lacking in other areas.

Maybe in high MMR, but that's not "the average player".

Plus, only tunnelers would have viewed the old Ds as strong. So why should it have been an annoyance to killers if tunneling is so rare.