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Only killers should be punished for forcing their objectives?
Comments
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So essentially the expectation is that by the time the survivor has gotten unhooked and back on a gen, you have already found, chased, downed, and hooked someone else and you need to keep that cycle permanently up throughout the entire game to be comparable to the same thing you would get by tunneling. As long as you got it going early enough.
Which if that's the case ok. I was already aware of that loop. But I was missing the part where your "time limit" for it to be good enough is by the time the hooked survivor gets rescued and progressing gens again. Without that it just sounded like it was expected that it would be the same even though there's an extra person running around while you're in chase with someone else. Which didn't make sense.
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Eh, kinda?
Certainly, you should at least be chasing someone by the time they're back on a generator, because even if they don't stop to heal that's going to take a few seconds. I don't think you need to have 100% uptime on this loop because the amount of damage it does to survivor's efficiency overall is enough that you can afford lulls where progress actually happens-- especially if you're running slowdown perks, then you're undoing some of that progress when you start the loop back up again.
A big thing to remember when conceptualising this kind of thing is that stopping generators from progressing is a tool, not a goal. Survivors getting some generators done is a given, you can't stop them from doing it. With that in mind, your goal is to slow it down enough that you're burning through map resources and hook states, to make each successive generator even slower than it already would've been naturally, to make each chase faster, to get closer to winning...
Again, the macro matters, a lot. Things like using up map resources and shrinking the effective play area by selectively ignoring certain generators heighten your lethality as the game progresses, instead of putting you on the back foot because survivors are closer to their objective than you are to yours.
I'm being vague on purpose, by the way, because this isn't a single tactic or playstyle, it's just killer fundamentals. It's broadly applicable to a bunch of different playstyles and tactics- you can enable this by opting for stealth and punishing survivors that don't heal, or you can build to aggressively chew through resources and leave survivors nothing to work with, and so on and so forth. You don't need to perform like a god to get these things working, either, if you're in a fairly matched game (and I know that's not a given, but we should probably assume it for discussions like these) then you're gonna get a lot done just by keeping survivors occupied.
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Ok first off to make sure we're talking about the same thing, the numbers I used were referring to the number of hooks on each person, so 2-2-2-2 would be everyone on death hook. As the 3rd hook is death hook.
It seems like you're putting it in as which survivor you hook, so survivor 1 then survivor 2 1 again ect. and the order you go in.
That said, the version you gave here is a lot more reasonable, but in my experience that still gets you labeled as a tunneler fairly often because supposedly "you tunneled 2 people at the same time (#1 and #2)" or "I got death hook before you even hooked #4 once, so you tunneled me". Which to me sounds silly, and given your playstyle I would assume you agree.
Which if we're taking those player into account, in order to "not tunnel" what was given was not a good enough hook spread. If we agree that that's an unreasonable ask, then we can go with your version. Which to me sound reasonable enough. Tunneling is still stronger, but that playstyle should be good enough for most matches.
Right now I do take those players into account because of how many I bump into, in and off the game. So when I said and heard "no tunnel, 10-12 hooks", it was going for max hook spread or close to it. Since that's what's been expressed to me as what that means (not by you just to be clear). Which is also why I also said the survivors have to be... not great to do so. Again, at least if we agree that idea is unreasonable. If so, I'm adjusting my playstyle lol.
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
Permanent uptime is just the amount you're aiming for if you were theoretically playing perfectly. Close enough should be well, close enough since both sides aren't going to be perfect.
To be more clear, I didn't mean before they progress gens at all as an entire team, I meant the particular survivor that was hooked and the one who went for the save are back on gens. As you said, there will always be at least one person on a gen so they will always be progressing.
I agree macro matters a lot, and never disagreed with that statement. It just didn't sound like enough to make up for an extra pair of free hands while you're in chase. But we already addressed that as far as I can tell. That's shouldn't be the case too often or for too long.
Being vague is perfectly understandable. Things like this can't really be given a super amount of detail without writing a collage dissertation on the game lol. Which almost no one wants to do. That's why even if I was asking for chase times, I wanted a rough general average estimate, not 1 exact number; and I got that answer. Even if it was in a different way then expected.
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
So tunneling is also largely a problem caused by the survivors themselves. How often do I see in my games (about 2/3 surv/killer) that teammates don't heal themselves, don't take "off the record" or "we'll make it" etc., or do an unhook directly if the killer is still there. Most play perks that help with hunting or with gens. What is the killer supposed to do if the gens are done quickly because everyone loops for 2 minutes and people are faster at the gens. But then you complain because the killer wants to have fun and doesn't want to be in the endgame after 4 minutes unless he plays the top killers.
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Well, it's not tunneling. Nobody gets hooked twice in a row and everybody gets to play the match. I don't really care what people say, some will complain over anything.
This will still get you 10-12 hooks, your just not hooking everyone sequentially
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It's not entirely the fault of survivors. Everything but fully optimized play got nerfed into the ground because someone complained. Now killers have to find and down a survivor in the first minute or they lose the game
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If you need to tunnel to stand a chance you don't deserve that MMR and you're boosted. The game is balanced to the point you can go for 10-12 hooks every match with players on your skill level.Incentives don't work, only punishments.Not my words, just what has been expressed to me in the thread.Who is saying you need to get everyone on death hook or else its tunneling? Its a long thread and maybe I missed it, but you seem to have a very extreme definition of tunneling.
This is the problem with threads like this where people talk about tunneling without clarifying what they mean. People who favor the killer side seem to think the survivor side is asking that everyone be hooked twice before anyone is killed. Survivors meanwhile are usually saying that its a problem if the killer just hooks the same player 3 times in a row and ignores everyone else.
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Conversely, your concern is purely that you don't like to lose sometimes.I wanted to say that was really well put.
If the survivors play optimally the game is unfair for the killer.
If the killer plays optimally the game is boring for the survivors.
Unfair is definitely an issue, but boring far outweighs it.
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"Who is saying you need to get everyone on death hook or else its tunneling? Its a long thread and maybe I missed it, but you seem to have a very extreme definition of tunneling."
Survivors have. The ones on my team, the ones when I play killer, the ones I've talked to over voice, the ones online. Everywhere I've been I've seen these type of complaints, and they're not a small amount, it's common enough. Again, in my experience. It's not explicitly "get everyone to death hook", but its close enough.
I don't care if the killer tunnels when I play survivor. So I'm going off what others define as "the tunneling problem", since I'm not the one with the issue.
As for the 10-12 hooks thing, that has been asserted as something the killer can and should aim to do in every match in this thread. Not sure if you disagree with that or not.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
Saying "I don't care what people say" and the idea to "play for the fun of the other/both sides" are kinda contradictory unless I'm missing something.
Essentially "their opinion on tunneling doesn't matter". So it sounds like we've drawn a line and their are some survivors whose fun and opinions matters, and some who it doesn't. Presumably because they're being wild with their idea of "tunneling". At least, in our current opinions.
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I listen to reasonable requests to play for fun. Reasonably, you don't need to tunnel (in my opinion, I guess) in 99% of games.
Obviously, there will be people who accuse you of camping or tunneling or whatever no matter what. It's like a Killer accusing me of using speed hacks as Survivor. Some people just don't deal with losing well and they aren't to be taken seriously. But reasonable people asking reasonably to have a fun match? I'm cool with it.
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Not sure if you disagree with that or not.Play how you like. I have my own rule set as killer, but its just to keep the game interesting.
I think tunneling is too powerful and ruins the experience, but that burden for change should be on BHVR and not players. I just think people are talking about two different subjects, the difference between an elimination at 3 hooks, 5 hooks, and the 9th hook are so radically different that if you don't verify that the person you are responding to is using the same terminology as you you are talking past each other (this kind of happened with you and Pulsar).
Whenever I hear tunneling I think it refers more to a specific playstyle than any actual hook number. I've run into trolls who will throw tunneling out no matter the circumstance, but that's a person being a troll, not an actual argument.
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Tunneling is used so loosely these days half the time people are arguing about different stuff.
I was in a Lobby where a Blight hooked Survivor A and went after Survivor B who was lurking near the hook. I unhooked A and A proceeded to run to the other corner of the map without healing (I had empathy).
The Blight downs and hooks B quickly, sees A at the other side of the map thanks to bbq and goes after him (I was hiding near hooked B to get the save and Survivor D had distortion). A ends up dead and accuses the Blight of tunneling in the endgame chat.
From A’s perspective, they got unhooked, ran to the other side of the map and the Blight comes after them before they even finished healing so they would feel like they were tunneled, however from my perspective, the Blight had downed and hooked someone and just went for the next target they saw on the map.
At this point, people probably have their own specific idea of what tunneling is and will call foul when someone doesn’t play by their definition of tunneling. I’ve had to re-down a freshly unhooked Survivor lurking about for a pallet save and get accused of being a sweaty tunneler because I have eyes and know what they were planning.
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well the reason why is because its kind of a easy way to win which needs to be fixed like ftp and buckle up or the new grim meta coming or mft...its a reason to complain about because it lacks skill. I understand people will always min max everything especially in a game with an mmr system. but that's the main reason, its in the game just like face camping was and pretty much still is and until there's a way to fix the problem people will complain.
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I agree, but who decides what's reasonable?
The players asking for more or less hook spread do think they're being reasonable (usually). If we say players should go by their own definition of reasonable then we're back to square 1 of "tunneling to win is reasonable" and "no it's not". Regardless of which version they mean, 3 hooks in a row or otherwise.
We can't say general sentiment, because that's all over the place. Me and you might agree on this speed of elimination, but others won't. To them, we'd be unreasonable, it'd be too slow or too fast.
I don't think there's really a realistic solution for that. Many have just taken the attitude of "play however you want" for this reason, amongst others. As long as it's not intentional BM, I understand that perspective as well.
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
Play how you like is an understandable perspective. There's too many differing opinions to really say who should play like what. As long as its not purposefully BM and such of course.
But under that philosophy you can't really say anything when a player plays in a way you don't personally agree with. A lot of players also don't like that so they don't want to subscribe to that idea.
You can still discuss it of course, and talk about why you feel a certain way. Like we are here.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
I don't really disagree with any of this. I just want to say, it's not just "these days" it's always been like that since I started playing years ago. So in your example it'd be like:
"You tunneled!"
"What? I hooked a whole other survivor before I chased you again."
"Yeah, but I just got unhooked so that's tunneling. You had 2 other survivors you could have looked for, but you came for me."
"You were the only survivor I could find."
"Still a tunneler. You should have kept looking for the others."
I've seen that conversation play out so many times for so long... and now I feel old lol.
Post edited by MrPenguin on4 -
That is correct, but the survivors do not adapt either.
If you tunnel because that's the only way the killers can win, but I or a lot of people want to survive, I have to adapt my perks. Whining about not using certain perks like "Of the record" because I might not get tunneled and then you only play with 3 perks.
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My opinion is:
If the survivors intend to be toxic and deny you to do anything, you have the right to tunnel, camp and slug.
But if the survivors are just playing normally, play normally as well.
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I never understood that mindset.
"Killers are tunneling basically every match!"
"Run anti-tunnel then."
"But what if they don't tunnel?"
Like are they doing it almost every game or not lol. You can't have a perfect build for literally every single scenario.
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What if that is what they consider playing "normally"? Rush on one side tunnel on the other?
Also as others have pointed out, by the time you sus out how they're playing it can be too late to swap and have it matter.
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Then I might only play with 3 or 2 perks rather than 4, but then I don't have any perks inside so that gens etc. go faster, which means that killers don't have to tunnel because there's more time. It's definitely a win if you get time out of gens for your team.
Ideally at the tunnel:
1. round start (Kiler seeks survivors) = Survivors seek Gens (make Gens)
2. killer in in chase with a survivor until down/hook = 3 make generators
3. killer looks for next survivor = 3 make generators
4. killer in chase with a survivor until down/hook or unhook = 1.5 survivors make generators (because of rescue)
5. survivor is either taken down during the chase if safe or shortly before the next stage
6. killer tunnels, but has to land several hits, as suitable second chance perks. = 3 survivors make gens
7. killer brings survivor to the hook.
8. killer looks for next survivor = 3 make generators
9. killer in chase with a survivor until down/hook or unhook= 1.5 survivors make generators (because of rescue)
10. survivor is either dropped during the chase if safe or shortly before the next stage
11. killer tunnels, but has to land several hits, because suitable second chance perks. = 3 survivors make gens
12. killer brings survivor to the hook.
13th killer looks for next survivor = 3 make generators
Sure there are still perks that slow down gens etc, but a survivor who knows how to grind and can take multiple hits gives the team enough time to make gens.
2-3 gens are usually done by the time the first one is down. Then 2-3 are still missing and these are easily doable even if tunneled, as long as he can take more.
But it's so rarely played.
I usually play "Of the record" and "we will make it" + "window of opportunity", "light"
Then there are 2 perks that help against tunneling + 2 for chasing.
If someone else heals me, I can even tank 3 hits until I lie down.
We also already had "Of the record", "we will make it", "DS", "Reassurance".
Killers don't stand a chance if you know you're grinding and in the worst case for him, he has to land 4 hits and before the survivor is finally downed.
Survivors don't need perks in normal gameplay as they are strong enough as it is. The only bad thing is when they are tunneled and camped. There are perks for this that ensure that at least 3 come out!
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See, people did bring anti-tunnel perks. But then it got nerfed because the pickrate was too high.
Now it's bad enough that even if you do get tunnelled and the killer faceplants into it, it doesn't do enough to really offset it, or in the case of OTR, it doesn't work at all if the killer tunnels hard enough.
If you nerf anti-tunnel badly enough, the new anti-tunnel just becomes genrush. Instead of DS/OTR, just bring Hyperfocus/Stakeout, toolboxes, BNPs, etc, and pray you're not the first one to be spotted.
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Don't think the game can ever be truly balanced, off the bat it's a 4v1 what else needs to be said. I just hope at some point more people than not will be able to enjoy the game.
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Its 4v1 Means 4 = 1. Not 4 < 1.
If killers want the Devs balance the game like a 4v1. Dont play it like its 3v1.
Yes, its never been. We all know the result of a match between an average Blight stacking 4 slowdown, strong addon and tunneling against an average teams.
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A killer is also not getting to play the game if he plays to survivor rules. Gens are done in 3 minutes and he gets squad bagged at the exit gate.
I don't like tunneling. But lately it feels more and more necessary at some point to keep the game running.
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But under that philosophy you can't really say anything when a player plays in a way you don't personally agree with. A lot of players also don't like that so they don't want to subscribe to that idea.Unless you are trying to hold me in a game you're pretty much all good with (I do my best to reserve my anger at design issues for the game designers), but that isn't exactly BHVR's design philosophy. They throw a mix of elements into the game, points, pips, escapes (and whether you only count yourself or the team as your win condition) and let players sort it out however they like (and hope MMR compensates on the matchmaking). Unfortunately, its a design that breeds toxicity as it leads to different players entering a match with different perspectives on what the goal is (and then we throw archives and sweaty addons into the mix).
If you don't take it too seriously it works out as a weird sandbox type experience.
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I understand "they're too weak". It's understandable to not want to run a perk you think is weak.
Like I said, it's the "but I don't want to run them, because what if they don't tunnel?". When supposedly it's super frequent. That's been said even when people think the perks are strong at what they do.
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
Or an average Ghostface against an average survivor team with 16 meta perks, 4 toolboxes and 4 BNPs.
The average Blight also isn't very good, nor is he popular for the average player because he's hard to play basekit. Afaik at least.
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
DS had a super high pickrate back when it was actually good though...
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That's 1 perk, and there were still people complaining about "needing to take it" for the same reason. More anti-tunnel exist besides DS. Like OTR.
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OTR only became an anti-tunnel perk when DS got nerfed though, and as mentioned before, OTR doesn't work if the killer tunnels hard enough.
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Wdym it doesn't work?
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It happens. But how many times in a 100 matches the average GF play against 4 toolbox and BNP.
And how many times in a 100 matches an average solo play against 4 slowdown and tunneling Blight/Wesker.
Answer that.
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4 slowdowns and the best add-ons and tunneling and playing Blight/Nurse/Wesker? Not often afaik.
As you said, "it happens" but not very frequently. 4 slowdowns alone is a lot to ask and many consider that overkill and use some tracking or chase perks. Otherwise the build is considered too narrowly focused and you're lacking in other areas.
Maybe in high MMR, but that's not "the average player".
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
I've consistently observed that updates presenting nerfs to killer perks often appear to result in unexpected benefits for killers.
I imagine the developers fear an imbalance in player retention, potentially leading to longer wait times for both sides. In an ideal scenario, updates would foster a balanced and enjoyable experience for all players, regardless of the chosen role.
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Plus, only tunnelers would have viewed the old Ds as strong. So why should it have been an annoyance to killers if tunneling is so rare.
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