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Generator System Feedback
The 3-gen strategy (identifying the closest 3 Generators and defending only them) has become very strong, especially on certain Killers, which can lead to very long games and frustration. We've made changes to how Generators are damaged by Killers and how Survivors stop Gen regression.
Please let us know what you think of the updated Generator system below.
Comments
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Why did the kick need a buff? The system is only there to prevent killers from aggressively holding 3 gens, so why was this bundled with a base killer buff? The system wasn't supposed to affect regular matches, but doubling the base kick regression will definitely have a noticeable impact on all matches, whereas the 8 regression limit will realistically only affect drawn out 3 gen matches.
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There is still the issue from the PTB where survivors can work on a regressing generator for just short of 5% progress, then briefly let go and begin working again, resetting the threshold for the generator to stop regressing which can be used to prevent the killer from being able to kick it again despite survivors making progress.
To address this the following changes could be made:
1) Kicking a generator no longer instantly removes any progress and only starts gradual regression. (But still counts as a regression event.)
2) Survivors must work on a regressing generator for the equivalent of 5% to stop regression. During this time, regression is paused, but no actual repair progress can be made until regression is stopped.
The second change makes up for the removal of the instant progress loss since it requires survivors to work on the generator for a few seconds without actually making progress, so the end result is the same as with the current system. The key difference is that it now becomes impossible to exploit the system to keep a generator in the regressing state indefinitely.
Edit: To account for regression perks being affected by this, they can all have their values reduced by 5% so they are not indirectly buffed by this change (they don't need to be buffed) and this shouldn't apply with Ruin.
Post edited by sizzlingmario4 on7 -
This whole gen block mechanic should only come into play when there actually are only 3 generators left on the map.
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This has made it impossible to kick gens, especially using info kick perks like trail of torment. We mentioned this numerous times on the ptb. Survivors are just letting go a split second before the 5 seconds to keep the generator perpetually in a regress mode if they have to leave the gen. This means the killer can't ever kick the gen. This effectively has a basekit feature that entirely disables nowhere to hide/trail of torment/dragons grip, oppression, and various other kick perks.
I didn't test the next part on the ptb, but how does this affect wiretap? Will wiretap remain for its full duration since killers can't kick the gen to stop it, or does any regression instantly disable wire tap?
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My first game as a maniac ended with the generator being blocked. The reason for this was that the survivors constantly failed to repair this generator and the entire regression occurred precisely on 1 generator. Moreover, my game was based on chases and the survivors destroyed all the triangles on the map. I was punished for the fact that the survivors could not finish 1 generator the entire game.
Post edited by Rizzo on3 -
I mentioned this numerous times during the ptb including videos. Some survivor teams entirely focus on center gens. With perks like surge, those center gens will absolutely get hit multiple times with surge. Remember, a down is NOT a guaranteed hook state with the sheer amount of seconds chances survivors get. In 2 days, I had 4 matches with 8+ regression events. One of them was 12. This wasn't camping gens, this only happened when survivors were only focusing on those center gens giving no reason to leave the center of the map outside of chases which I would do. Just after a chase and a hook, you naturally go back to the center to check in on those focused gens. Killers should not be punished for survivor mistakes like this. Remember, surge is designed around hitting multiple times in succession to punish bad survivor positioning.
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This change still punishes killers for using non-regression kick perks, for using lesser regression value perks, and for basic game sense, knowing which gens are being pressured the most.
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Adriana still defending 3-gen.
Instead of modifying the killer who was the biggest problem with the 3-gen, they added a mechanic that affected all the other killers unnecessarily. They could reduce the number of drones she can use in addition to not allowing a drone to be right on top of a gen. The trials still so boring with Adriana 😪
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all my games ended without gens getting blocked, even the ones where i was actively going out of my way to try to get them to block. definitely could make the argument to reduce the number of regression events, but i think it's fair to leave them as they are
once again, a reminder to BHVR that some of the feedback is gonna be from the people that this update was meant to counter, so take it with a grain of salt
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Absolutely. It was a problem on a small amount of killers. Nerf them, not EVERY killer - especially already weak m1 killers. M1 killers CANNOT AFFORD to run off to the far corners of the world to defend gens very far from all the rest. They, per BHVR's design, MUST stay among the centralized gen areas and can't chase too far away since many m1 killers can't end chases fast. This means they are far more likely to hit central gens as opposed to spreading regression equally across all gens like BHVR claimed would happen. No, BHVR, an m1 killer is not going to run all the way over to that corner where a single gen is while 4 gens are close to each other on the opposite side of the map.
If you were going out of your way, you need only kick a gen about 2 or 3 times to get it to perma block. Just using eruption alone only allows 4. Throw in another regression, and you have it perma blocked in no time. You're always reminding BHVR to disregard everyone's feedback that doesn't like the system because they are "obviously" 3 gen campers who never do chases. This simply isn't true.
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I made a detailed post on the PTB feedback expressing my concern over how these changes could make 3gen situations even stronger for the average killer, and for some killers this does seem to be what has happened.
Consider a killer like Knight who can kick a gen and then guard another one in the 3gen while using a guard to stop survivors from repairing the gen to stop regression. I had a game already with a 3gen Knight and breaking the 3gen was worse than ever before since they could just drop a guard and keep one gen regressing while defending the other.
The removal of gen tapping makes it very hard for average survivors or soloq to break a 3gen since the killer has a chance to interrupt them before they hit that 5% repair threshold to stop it. Furthermore, the extra kick damage makes it even worse. Survivors breaking 3gens often need to pre-run if the killer is aggressive with it. These features punish survivors for properly trying to break a 3 gen.
Simply put, 8 regression events rarely happen, and even in a 3gen can be difficult to pull off now since it can be harder to stop the regression. Meanwhile extra damage on gen kicks and the removal of gen tapping is relevant in pretty much every DBD match.
BHVR must reduce the amount of progress required to stop regression. Even if gen tapping has to stay removed it should be changed to a lesser amount like 2.5%. Also the extra damage to kicks is unnecessary in my opinion and is just a buff that rewards gen kicking. This would have been very welcome if gen tapping was still in the game to punish survivors for using it, but without gen tapping it just feels like an unnecessary buff.
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Exactly. They claimed the system was only supposed to affect extreme 3gen situations. While the 8 kick limit certainly fits that description, the kick damage buff and the removal of gen tapping are relevant in every dbd match. The result is a direct killer buff and a buff to a gen kick type meta that the community is sick of.
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It doesn't only affect 3 gen situations, is the problem. Numerous people have pointed this out. I myself have had matches where I hit 8+ regression events because survivors kept flooding the central gens and ignoring all other gens. Still plenty of other gens but they won't touch them.
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No, I'm reminding them to be cognizant of the fact that at least some of the feedback is coming from a place of being upset that BHVR thinks their play style is a problem. that does not preclude that some people may have legitimate criticism of the system.
Maybe the fact I was downing survivors fast enough that they couldn't restore progress on the gens I was focusing is why the gens didn't block, and if I struggled more it would have given more time to get through the 8 events. Maybe the fact they prioritized getting head traps off instead of gens contributed to that. I'm just saying my experience
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Honestly I'm so sad that Surveillance got double nerfed. Not only because of the kick limit but also because it does not tell the killer anymore when the generator is being worked on, it ONLY triggers once it is past the regression point which is a net negative because that's 5 seconds of repair time (or rather an extra 2.5) that survivors get without surveillance triggering.
Even worse this means combined with the bug, a survivor could make surveillance do absolutely nothing. What did this perk do to deserve this? It's an intel perk, not a slowdown.
Really hate these changes and I said as much during the PTB even though it wasn't active. Just pushes killers to use meta perks even more and leaves niche perks like surveillance, brutal strength, trail of torment, dragons' grip and others in the dust.
I could easily record a bot game where I hit the kick limit using my usual build and that's without three genning: Surveillance, mad grit, agi, awakened awareness, no slowdowns outside of surveillance if you count that.
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Pop got a nerf, as people can't tap a gen meaning less gens are available to be popped when you have that timer ticking down to get a kick in before it expires.
However, I will say, a generator being repaired is NOT regressing, so surveillance SHOULD immediately let you know someone is working on it. If they let go before 5%, then it'll hop back to regressing, but surveillance I would assume still glow yellow for 16 seconds. After the 16 seconds, if it's still regressing, it should show in white, again. If that's not working that way, you should put in a bug report.
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I think they need to change the 8 Max Regression Events to 10. I have had a few games where this effect came into play and I wasn't even 3 genning, we were still at 4 gens left.
This is supposed to be a fix for 3 gen players, It shouldn't be affecting the average match!
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It doesn't. You can HEAR people repairing on the 'white' generator and then it'll turn yellow after they've passed the threshold. I almost never used this combo it but I gotta wonder whether Surveillance+Ruin is also gutted for the same reason/bug. Honestly, I am feeling a large amount of 'why bother' when it comes to feedback or bug reporting. Don't exactly have a good record for follow up with things I report. Then of course the PTB and the issues here are exactly what people predicted there'd be. Massively overpowered meta perks while niche perks get completely gutted when some really good ideas were in the PTB thread.
I honestly hoped it would work the way that ruin+surveillance used to/does. If a generator gets worked on then the survivor gets chased off, you immediately know when someone else touches it because it turns yellow.
I suspect though that the game considers the generator as 'regressing' and thus not a valid target for surveillance (or kicking) until the threshold is passed then it is being 'repaired'. This bandaid style fix without thinking of the consequences is typical and it's how a lot of their bugs happen.
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I’ve been playing all day, and in my opinion the new system has been working generally pretty great!
I never had a generator block for me while playing killer and running regression perks.
Playing as killer, I had found myself focusing on finishing out chases rather than defending gens.
Playing as survivor, only ONE generator blocked for a killer out of all the matches, and this was only when the killer was running a FULL regression loadout - Eruption + Pop + Pain Res.
On this match, the one gen that blocked was a gen that from the start of the match the killer kept going back to regress over and over and over again, until it was one of the last three generators remaining. At this point, I think there was very little the killer could do to stop the generator from being completed, and probably felt a lot of pressure to chase as hard as possible. I’m sure the endgame was stressful on their end, but the killer had a massive lead the entire game until they couldn’t regress the one gen anymore.
It felt good as survivor, though - it felt like the game was continuing on and we weren’t just at the mercy of dragging the match out forever by regressing the gen to 0 over and over again. Additionally, if the killer had instead applied their regression perks to other generators rather than the same one repeatedly, I’m sure they wouldn’t have found themselves in such a tight corner.
I think games are more stressful for killers when there’s a generator that’s been repeatedly regressed in a high-traffic area from the beginning of the game. I think it’s right for the killer to defend this gen to a degree, but by the end of the game I think a killer can feel stuck between a rock and a hard place if the gen still hasn’t been completed and they’ve run out of regression events - survivors will keep pressuring the gen just out of range and I’m sure it can feel taunting and like a fleeting victory to not be able to stop them unless you down them.
I still think that this generally is good, though - it feels like matches are coming to an eventual close by focusing on chases rather than aggressively defending a generator as hard as possible, no matter how early or late into the game this is happening!
Generally, I think the games that are causing stress for players are the games where the killer is trying to prioritize defending generators rather than ending chases. i.e., the stressful games are coming from the playstyle that the new gen system is trying to squash out.
i think some time is needed for both sides to adjust and find new metas and behaviors before any more drastic changes are made, but for me matches felt a lot better on both sides, knowing that they were progressing and we weren’t both sweating our heads off on an insane tug-of-war over generators.
Making the 3-gen system come into play before 3 gens are left can enable 4-gens (which can still be strong), or Killers could still drag matches out by defending generators early. I think it’s good that the system is active for the entirety of the match.
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A glitch in the generator system makes it impossible for the killer to escape the effects of eavesdropping. If you don't turn on the eavesdropping kill switch or change the conditions, eavesdropping will become an unreasonable perk where you can be seen for 2 minutes. Please turn on the kill switch immediately.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
This system is having far too much impact on regular Killer gameplay. Perk effects like those of Kick perks (Eruption, POP) or perks triggered by kicking generators have a significant impact from the start of the match. Key generators, crucial for traffic-heavy matches, quickly reach their limit, making the game less enjoyable.
With this system, kick perks are relatively nerfed, their pick rates drop significantly, and the overall gameplay variety decreases.
As @Smoe mentioned, it should only trigger after reaching the state of 'only 3 generators.'
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In the first place, the reason why the three generators gather at the same location is due to the game's generation system. I think it's out of the question to place the blame on the murderer. It seems like the management has never played this game, so they won't know unless I tell them...
I don't want them to be implemented in a state where there are known defects in the first place. Is it healthy game management to force the killer to endure until the problem is resolved?
Post edited by Rizzo on5 -
Make sure you report that. That absolutely shouldn't be happening.
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If the goal is that the limit on regression events is supposed to affect only a tiny percentage of games, then why is regression getting such a significant overall buff, both in kicking and in removing gen tapping? Those changes affect essentially 100% of games. Are devs seeing regression right now as too weak? Seriously?
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This system has an extremely significant impact on "normal play." It needs to be adjusted as soon as possible.
Because this system is present from the start of the game, the culprit must play with the fear of kicking the generator.
They must play with the fear of kicking.
If you try to use a perk like Irruption, the generator will be blocked by the system by mid-match, even if you do not intend to harden the generator.
There are many ways to adjust the system, for example, the number of times a generator is destroyed excluding the perk effect, or the number of times it is applied after the number of generators is reduced to about two.
Also, this system was disabled by a bug on the first day of PTB, and I am in disbelief that it was forcefully implemented without sufficient feedback.
Dead by Daylight" is a great game. Please pray that this game will be enjoyed for many years to come.
Thank you.
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I don't like the idea of imposing restrictions on all Gen Kick Parks, making them impossible to use, and penalizing killer players when the game drags on. They should change the way they continue to restrict and make AFC a good game difficult.
In the first place, I'm surprised that the bugs listed below, which have already been brought up and multiple bug reports have been reported, have been implemented as they are. Wasn't it supposed to have no effect on normal matches?
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I’ve been enjoying it thus far. Seems to be functioning well in my opinion 😊
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I agree with Hex Ignored. My opinion is that this new update seems like a huge killer boost that will only really help survivors in matches with crazy three gen killers that are usually limited to one per night.
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A minor quibble, but with the VFX would it be worth considering delaying those effects until the 6th stomp?
Some have shown confusion with the effects and - although it is stated clearly in the descriptiom - I wonder whether having the VTX early on is a distraction.
If it starts after the 6th regression then it could act as a "3 strikes and you're out indicator". The Killer role can be quite stressful, so maybe adding a stress indicator early on into any regression isn't overly helpful.
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I never imagined that the devs care too much about appeasing the survivors. With low killer count, you have high wait times. It's just like when they got rid of Boon circle of healing and gutted self healing, every nerf or buff is a killer buff in disguise.
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It also gets rid of greedy survivors, that's one way that I used rack up kills. They would try to get that extra tap in.
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Nice but, Skull Merchant still defending trigen super well and matches still boring and miserable against this strategy from her. SKULL MERCHANT IS THE REAL PROBLEM, NOT THE TRI GEN. Stop changing the game instead the real problem. Everyone knows about the real motives about these generator changes. Chess Merchant. Change her definetly and the tri gen has beem solved
Post edited by Ricardo170373 on4 -
It didn't take me long to encounter the anti-3-gen system in-game. I mainly play Singularity (which involves a rather defensive gameplay) with Surge and Nowhere to Hide (a setup where generators often regress). Even when playing casually, due to my perks, especially Surge, I've already come across some matches with generators almost stuck in the mid-game.
I even believe I've observed survivors intentionally bringing every generator they come across to 1% progression so that each generator quickly experiences its 8 regression events.
On paper, this system seemed good. However, in practice, the system interferes in "normal" matches where it is not supposed to be necessary. Worse yet, some survivors might already be attempting to exploit the system to their advantage.
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One thing I will say after seeing other people's feedback, maybe they should add a little glowing number that tracks how many times you damage that specific gen; a fee people seem to be confused by the VFX and thought the spikes that pop up after 3 damage events were the gen being full blocked
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No dude, we aren't getting "confused" as we can still clearly kick those gens when that pops up. We are having standard non 3 gen games locking up gens just like we said it was happening in the ptb but had our feedback completely ignored. This is freaking ridiculous. Getting tired of being penalized because of a small handful of bad players who'd just camp. This was supposed to only affect those people, not be yet another stress point to add to an already long list of things to stress and worry about across all killers. It's especially brutal on already weak m1 killers who are forced to stay centralized in a map who likely use surge, and many survivor groups love to only focus on certain gens.
This just flat out sucks.
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This isn't about you bestie it's about other people who demonstrably have been thrown off by the gfx
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That's sneaky.
Changes I would suggest off of reading things in this thread:
- The first survivor who touches a regressing generator sets a marker at the point they started repair (the lower bound) and the point at 5% progression from that point (the upper bound). These points are not removed until either the generator regresses below the lower bound or is repaired above the upper bound. In the event of a bran new part installed during this interval, the points are recalculated based on the relative low bound point.
- A generator must lose a minimum of 5% repair progress to count as a regression event.
As an aside I know it isn't needed, but I was messing around with a Huntress who went friendly after my team all gave up and left fir whatever reason, and we checked this regression thing.
I was a little disappointed to see that there were no spikes on the gen to say it was protected by the entity... I don't need it ofc, and it'd probably confuse people rather than help... but it would have been cool to see the shiny new thing on survivor side 😔
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The most frustrating thing is punishing killer for the survivors fault
If you think game time shouldn't be that long then just make the 60min end game mechanism earlier
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Kick needed to be buffed anyway, kicking a gen was almost never worth it, now it is. And if you have Regression perks like Pain Res or Surge kicking is a gamble because you could end up hitting a gen 8 times even in normal gameplay.
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Because removing 3 gens is a nerf to killers?
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After going against a couple of 3gen Knights and Skull Merchants all I can say is these changes have absolutely made 3gen killers stronger and more miserable to play against than ever from my experiences. Sure they can only kick a gen 8 times, but that doesn't matter when they can defend a tight knit 3gen and stop you from ever stopping regression, Knights guards are particularly bad for this. The removal of gen tapping and the extra kick damage just makes it pure suffering to play against these killers in 3 gen situations. BHVR please reconsider the impact these changes have on 3gen gameplay with such killers.
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Like I said before, this was never a 3 gen issue - this was a killer specific issue. They threw out the baby with the most of the bathwater, but kept a bit of that bathwater in a jar for safekeeping. SM/Knight and arguably blight/nurse needed their 3 gen power tuned down....not all killers across the board - especially weak m1 killers.
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that's like saying removing infinites was as survivor nerf. Removing unhealthy playstyles and mechanics should not be seen as a nerf that deserves a compensation buff
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As long as it only affects the actual problem, then a nerf can be justified without needing compensation. The problem here is that the solution is way out of scope and is affecting killers who aren't even in a 3 gen situation. That's not justified.
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To be fair, 3-genning purposefully from the start is unhealthy (especially with specific Killers).
The Survivors 3-genning themselves despite the Killer's intentions is not on the Killer and should be a difficult situation as doing gens strategically is part of the Survivor's gameplay. Removing 3-gens in any sort of way will always be an indirect nerf to Killers and buff to Survivors as it essentially mitigates the gravity of Survivor's mistakes and makes weaker/M1 Killers (those who need regression more) harder and more stressful to play especially against decent players since they now have a limited ability to slow gens on top of having overall longer chases.
The current iteration of their "Anti-3-gen solution" is deeply flawed since it actively discourages the use of a lot of perks in fear of running out of kicks/regression events too soon (Nowhere To Hide, Trail of Torment, Surveillance, Machine Learning etc.) and having one of the last gens be close to impossible to regress. This is a common occurrence if the Killer doesn't absolutely stomp the Survivors. In most of my games (where I don't go full boring meta tryhard and actually try to have fun), if I dare kick gens in-between chases too much, I end up against at least 3 Survivors alive and at least one of the last 3 gens halfway (or more if I dared bring Surge or any kick perks) through it's regression events, which means I have to prioritize defending this gen since I won't be able to regress it for long, making the last gen (which is supposed to be the point where the Killer is at their strongest) harder to manage than the other 4.
The system could be decent IF it didn't activate until the last gen (maybe reduce the events to 6-7 to compensate) since it wouldn't limit perk diversity and wouldn't put as much pressure on weaker Killers especially if Survivors try to do specific (usually center) gens (and is the Killer supposed to NOT kick gens in-between chases? Especially if Survivors keep going back to it). A Killer that chased the whole trial will likely have to deal with a Survivor team that's in rough shape compared to a Killer that never left their zone, as such a regression limit will be slightly less of a hassle for the Killer since the Survivors won't have as much leeway and perk diversity will suffer less.
Similarly to their ill-thought-out STBFL nerf, the powerhouses (Blight, Nurse) don't care about this system (except for the new Grim Embrace, literally nothing has changed for those two, if anything this update was an indirect buff to Blight and Nurse since they never kicked gens much to begin with) because regression was never needed (Pain Res and Pop were MORE than enough) but everyone else is put under more constraints and has less choices. I don't want to face the same 5 Killers and I don't want to be forced to play the same handful of Killers to compete against good Survivors.
Infinites needed to go and the AFC was a good idea, the gen system is flawed as it is now and I can't call it a buff for anyone else than Blight and Nurse.
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Removing infinites was a nerf though?
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Yes, it was. I worded that poorly. The point I was trying to make is that unlike the 3 gen solution survivors (rightfully) didn't receive a compensation buff in return
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From the way they worded their post, it seemed they always planned for this change but didn't do it because it would make 3 gens worse. It was more so a change they could finally do rather than a compensation buff.
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As a killer main, I'm happy with these changes. Kicking gens actually feels worthwhile now.
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At first I was quite surprised devs decided to deal with "3-gens", when it was absolutely acceptable tactic, and which I used a lot, especially when doing adepts (old ones). But I don't remember when I kicked gens more than 8 times...
Now, every damaged generator by any means, will be destroyed to 0 almost guaranteed, unless killer go to other side of the map. So in almost every match every killer-player just effortlessly tunnel and camp. That much tunneling I've seen only when Dead Hard and DS were nerfed the first time.
Very nice indeed. Very fun. Now it's even more genrush and more tunneling.
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