The Onryo Feedback
Comments
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I met a SWF group that, as their counterplay, simply turned off over and over all my active TVs. I guess that they had a lot of fun. I hadn't.
There is no need for wall of text here. To be clear, I'm not dissing those who spent a lot of time to put down their suggestions, but what I want is very simple:
Bring back the PTB Sadako.
Then I have a queestion: what kind of panic attack caused her nerf when everybody in the PTB was cool with the new Sadako? Why don't test the PTB version in the open BEFORE any tweaks?
It is true, and I'm the first to admit this, that against unprepared players Sadako can obliterate a group of Survivors in two minutes. However, as soon as the Survivors get a clue, there is little counter-counterplay (if you get what I mean).
I'm very disappointed by what happened between the PTB and now. The fix is simple. Only then will be possible to talk sariously about further tweaks.
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I hope all the effort y’all are putting in giving this great feedback won’t go unnoticed, it was disregarded last time so I just don’t want people wasting their time again.
I agree PTB Sadako didn’t feel particularly strong either, however it’s better than the dumpster fire we have right now so I guess we can compromise. There are lots of great ideas to make her better on this thread and the previous ones they can look up, if they care to.
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Exactly! Agreed!
Slugging is really quite easy to achieve if you stall the game enough. She's a stealth killer, it's her bread and butter to injure someone, leave, come back later, get a down, and then quickly rinse and repeat.
C omitting to a specific chase can be a HUGE time investment if the survivor is playing well, but that's the healthy gameplay we're all looking for. So she needs a strong incentive to do it.
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A killer with a weak chase NEEDS slowdown. Pig comes to mind.
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She's trash now. BHVR went overboard with the nerfs like they did with Trickster. Remember that the original Sadako was widely considered as one of the weakest killers in the game. She needed large buffs from her original version to be at least decent. The biggest buff in the current version is Condemn on all active TVs, but she received a large nerf with the 10 sec Condemn cd. Base kit (no addons), she is about as strong as the original. However, she lost her strong addons (original Ring Drawing and Iridescent Videotape). Therefore, she is now even weaker than the original version.
I also think BHVR is overrating the Condemn lock in for hooks. It mainly just saves time hooking. The only way to get large value from the Condemn lock in is to hook them with many stacks on their first hook. On their 2nd hook, it doesn't matter how many Condemn stacks they have since if you down them on their 2nd hook, they are dead from 3 hook stages anyway.
My recommendation: reduce TV cooldown to 25 seconds. I actually think the Condemn cooldown would be fine if her TV cooldowns were lower. This change would give her higher mobiliy in exchange for lower Condemn lethality.
Post edited by adsads123123123123 on3 -
She is still able to walk. I think it's too much a threat for survivors.
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First of all Behavior please read the ptb feedback!
I think you did her really bad with your post ptb changes, she was already not strong and needed buffs from the ptb!
Your arguments, why you nerfed her, we’re also really bad. First you say it was clever to use the maximum out of every TV and then you nerf it with that stupid cooldown, which feels miserable to play with!
The condemned lock in was a cool idea, but you nerfed it into non existence. Either remove locking in stacks entirely or make that you can lock in all stacks. The only fun thing you could do with it on the ptb was to lock someone with full stacks! Also the tunneling argument is completely stupid. When you get unhooked you didn‘t get more new stacks on you right away, that means it’s not profitable to tunnel for stacks and people who tunnel, will just do it either way. Also why would you want to tunnel on a killer with a build in mori!
How I would have changed her:
Reverted her whole concept back to how she worked in her first version and I would have kept the buffs from the other versions. Also I would have reverted all old useful addons from her first version back. (This are my ideas how I wished you would have done it)
Power:
- You only spread condemned near the one tv, where you teleported to. There the radius of condemned is split into three parts, which give you more or less condemned (depends on how far away you are from the TV). In the radius around a Tv you get 0,5 stacks (20-16m), 1stack (16-10m) and 2 stack (10-0m).
- That wouldn‘t need any cooldown and would encourage you to chase someone to TVs to condemn them, which then also would be skillful.
Tapes:
- Right now her counterplay has 0 risk or downside and it makes you completely immune to condemned in the range of turned off TVs.
- I would change that through returning passive condemned gain from holding tapes.
Tv auras make it impossible to use her power in chase and make an unnoticed approach to people near a Tv very difficult. Therefore I would remove them and would only let them see the aura of their target Tv, where they have to put their tape.
Addons:
- Iri videotape: Please give us the first version of it back, which turned TVs back on. It was a very good addon, which would have almost the same effect as the current iri tape, but it would just be a lot better. You could nerf it slightly to only turn on 2 TVs.
- Ring drawing: Please give us the old effect back, which gave condemned when healing someone! The nerf to lock in condemned made this addon terrible. The change was only ok in the first place, because they couldn‘t remove that one stack, but now that lock in got nerfed, it’s just bad. Personally if you decide to buff lock in again, you should also bring back the old ring drawing and give the one stack lock in to an other addon.
- Yoichis fishing net: If you decide to bring back passive condemned gain from holding a tape, then please return the old effect, which gave you passive condemned faster from holding tapes.
- Please change the addons, because you nerfed them a lot through your rework and most of them were already bad! We made some addon suggestions in the ptb feedback if you need ideas, read it, either way please read the feedback this time! There you can find out, which effects we want to see.
Edit: You could also make that her TVs don‘t turn off after tps if you return to her first version.
Post edited by jonifire on3 -
If you keep her Ptb version like she was, that would already be a huge step in the right direction, but then please read through the ptb feedback to find the problems of this version.
Personally I would prefer her first version over the all Tv spread version we have right now (if you keep the cooldown on this version).
Post edited by jonifire on1 -
I'm now recording my matches.
I have video evidence of how awful she is.
The matches get increasingly frustrating... More and more survivors find out about how useless my power is and start bming. It honestly is just heartbreaking. I rarely got this depressed over a game. Ever.
This is not what we wanted. This is horrible.
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The thing that bothers me in this situation is there's a handful of survivors who think it's justified because of 2.0 Sadako slugging, tunneling and spamming. Which I find increasingly ironic since my survivor matches against Sadakos end up in slug fests, tunneling and attempted condemned 'spamming' through slugging and picking up like 1.0, just without the Ring Drawing.
On my end with Sadako, I have now heavily relied on Bamboozle and Dissolution to cut down as much loop time as possible while still running VCR/DMS for time since Condemned doesn't gain much at all. My only saving grace is my prior knowledge of her M1 game, because VCR is way less effective now that TV auras are a thing, it's quite a difference.
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I can only agree, that she is terrible now. Even her first version, which was called weak by many, was far stronger than this version.
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Agree, at least her first version had Iridescent Tape - the current version is so bad and I can't believe they made it an iridescent add on that removes her entire power LOL.
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Im still pushing condemned. All my games are nothing but pure stress. It's really like back then, just worse. I have ring drawing autolocked because I want to get anything from hooking people.
If you want gameplay of me suffering, I can provide.
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I wouldn‘t even call her second version strong, she was just incredible annoying to play against and her only viable way was condemned, which wasn‘t the case with her first version. Now her new version also suffers from the same counterplay problem, which makes survivors turn off all TVs. The only difference is that the counterplay/ tapes have no downside now and you can‘t use her TVs to get close to survivors, because they see the TV aura disappear through walls and decide to prerun always.
Sadly her new version only encourages bad playstiles, because she is way too weak.
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TLDR: revert
Now survivors can completely deny Onryo power by closing TV.
Onryo cannot condemn survivors anymore actually.
16m of opened TV is a very hard condition, because survivors can always turn off TV before repairing.
And the risk of holding tape removed, it is a double nerf to Onryo.
Also, Onryo need to teleport to "wrong" TV to prevent the "correct" TV get closed by teleport, which is not a healthy playstyle.
Onryo pretty rely on the execution to win the game because her chasing ability is nearly zero.
I would say the previous version mechanism is pretty balanced, just adjust the stack value a bit if it is too strong.
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The current version of Iri-tape does not remove her entire power. Her power is condemn as well as the mobility gained from Projecting. The add-on shifts the balance between these two all the way to the mobility side by removing the TV cool-downs from Projection but removing any condemn pressure. This would be a perfectly fine add-on if it were not for a major issue.
The issue is that survivors can remove her entire power when running this add-on. Without any condemn pressure, with no downsides to grabbing and holding tapes, and with longer TV cool-downs, survivors can easily have someone go from TV to TV using the auras and completely deny your power. This is completely broken and makes the add-on worthless against smart teams.
BHVR needs to make it so when running this add-on, survivors carrying a tape cannot interact with any other TVs until they drop their tape off. They should also hide TV auras other than the drop off TV when holding a tape.
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i know what the add-on does, my point is for an IRI add-on you are taking away her strongest trait and that is to build condemn on survivors and add pressure to them throughout the duration of the game. I would say by removing this you are effectively removing her power and you might as well play any other teleportation killer in that instance, like dredge or freddy (who at least both have some kind of anti-loop too).
This could easily be one of those meme brown add-ons for extra BP, not her iridescent.
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Completely agree, her current iri is only a downside. They should bring back her old iri tape, which turned TVs back on.
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Having access to such high mobility can be 100% worth the trade off in the hands of a skilled Onryo. Its a teleport but unlike the other killers you mentioned, it has no cool-down and can be used at a will. With the proper adjustments so survivors can't just run around rapidly turning off every TV, it is 100% worthy of its place as a strong Iri-add-on that augments her power in a fun and unique way.
I know many Onryo players focus on her condemn pressure, but some of us also know how strong her old map pressure was and know how to take advantage of it. This add-on will be alright if BHVR fixes it so survivors can't abuse it.
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Tapes are useless, no downside while carying em, give atleast the "adding stacks while holding tapes for too long" back, anything
give her the ol' chess merchant treatment, this aint it
Shes fine on low MMR though, tapes are somewhat of a small extra slowdown
Post edited by Karth on0 -
They could just return her old iri tape and it would have the same effect with less downsides. It was such a cool addon!
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Old Iri-tape would be welcome to see again too. However the current Iri-tape only has downsides because BHVR had not think it through and did not limit the survivors ability to turn off multiple TVs. If BHVR addresses the issues with this, then the add-on is actually good and worthy of being an Iri. The add-on makes it impossible for you to turn off your own TVs, only survivors can. This gives you very strong map mobility and if skillfully used, strong map pressure. It gives you info on where survivors are if they do take tapes, and if if BHVR addresses the issues, it will also give you slowdown. Do not underestimate how useful an on demand teleport can be for map pressure. This is why old Iri-tape was so good even when not playing for condemn.
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Well it technically does have a cooldown, as the TVs will take 20% longer to turn back on if survivors take a tape and as there's no risk of being condemned, there's no downsides to them taking tapes all game and denying your teleports. You are right in saying that you don't have to play for condemns but it's also a built in slowdown without running a full gen regression build as it's a side objective to gens.
I love playing Sadako as a chase killer but I also enjoy the built in pressure / slowdown condemn applies, without this she's just an M1 killer with some map mobility and there's other killers that do that better IMO.
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You are correct that if BHVR doesn't address the add-ons problems, it is a horrible add-on. But if BHVR 1 or 2 simple fixes to it like making it so they can't pick up and turn off additional TVs when carrying a tape and requiring them to drop it off first, the add-on becomes decent to strong. It would become an add-on that still allows for survivors counterplay to her power (as killer powers should) without making it so survivors can shut it down completely.
Whether this add-on is complete trash against good teams or a decent add-on is all completely dependent on whether BHVR is smart enough to realize the issues with it and address them correctly. If they do, it will be a good add-on that creates a fun twist on her power. If they do not, then it is an add-on that survivors can easily abuse to completely deny her power, making the add-on a massive liability.
I would hope that reading all the feedback about it, BHVR can make the right decision with the Iri-videotape and the Rickety Pinwheel add-ons, but then again it is BHVR so they'll likely throw all this feedback away and do their own thing.
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I would also love to see Old Iri-tape. Old-Iri-tape would be stronger than a fixed version of the current Iri-tape simply due to the fact that it gives Onryo control over when she wants to turn her TVs back on.
However I doubt BHVR will consider restoring old Iri-tape back into her kit. Therefore my efforts for this add-on are focused around identifying the issues with the new Iri-tape and providing BHVR with feedback to help make it a good add-on and not the weak add-on it currently is. The new Iri-Videotape has a lot of potential and I love the concept, but as long as survivors can abuse the add-on to quickly turn off all her TVs and completely deny her power without a downside, it will be bad.
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It should have been buffed (as told in the Ptb feedback)
It's a running gag at this point.
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I wouldn't say it's high mobility.
Survivors can just simply turn off a single TV nearby the generator, so you just have the "high mobility" to wrong location then you need to walk like a normal killer.
I would say it is a weaker Dredge, at least the locked locker just make you exit slower.
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Terrible change. Survivors can just run around freely disabling every single TV without any repercussion... Does anyone at BHVR actually play this game? There's no way in hell anyone sat down for more than 2 minutes and went over basic exploits
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I see a lot of people suggesting that they add ticking condemn back to survivors holding a tape. However I think there is a problem with this. This is because BHVR needs to address the counterplay issues in her kit, as a priority but adding ticking condemn might tilt the scale towards the other side and lead to a Onryo where survivors can't effectively engage in counterplay. Right now the counterplay is way too forgive towards survivors and makes it easy for them to deny and punish Onryo without giving her the means to work around it. This must be addressed.
However if BHVR does address the issues regarding her counterplay, and then decides to add ticking condemn to survivors holding tapes, I feel like it is too much for survivors to have to deal with as it would put them more in a lose lose type situation. Survivors would be pushing for grabbing a tape to protect themselves but also punished if they don't grab a tape. This would be a problem. As long as there is a global condemn type system where Onryo can spread condemn on multiple points of the map by teleporting I think ticking condemn is too strong.
I do propose a compromise solution though. There has been talk about making Yoichi's Fishing Net add-on apply ticking condemn by making it look something like this:
Yoichi's Fishing Net:
- Projection no longer applies condemn. Tapes are no longer broken upon being hooked
- Survivors who take a VHS tape slowly gain condemn when not in chase. (22 sec per stack) This effect lasts until they drop their tape off at their assigned TV.
This change would provide a means for Onryo to work around survivors doing the counterplay of turning off TVs and denying her mobility. It would also discourage survivors from touching her TVs like in 1.0 to avoid a condemn threat as they would become cursed for grabbing a curse tape (lore accurate!).
The result would either be survivors let her have free control over her mobility or take the risk of getting caught with a tape and getting condemned.
It might need some tweaks but I think it would be a fun add-on to play with. I'd love to hear what you all think.
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This is too complicated. The changes are way more simple than that. Put sadako back to her original state when she released.
keep her from being stunned when she is de manifested, all TVs condemn within 16 m, bring back the old tapes, all TV aura should not be visible to survivors, revert tape insertion back to two seconds.
Fix her add-ons.
Period. The end.
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I agree with you a bit, that it could be too much, but on the other side I think it’s needed. There is no downside to tapes and that was a key element of her power always. Also the passive condemned does only something if the survivors hold the tapes for too long, which would be fine. Tapes aren’t supposed to be safe.
I don‘t know whether you read how I would have reworked her, but they could also give her a very weak global condemned and strong condemned at the tvs you teleport to. I personally loved her first version and this version has the same problems as her second version.
I prefer her first version over all versions we get. One big problem of the global condemned versions is that survivors will always turn of her TVs. I really enjoyed the teleport part of her power and that you could go for condemned in her first version, but it wasn‘t forced like in the past two versions, where survivors turn off all her TVs to counter her.
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It should be her basic power, otherwise this killer have to bundle with a specific add-on which is not a healthy playstyle.
Also, It is just a give and take situation. Survivors can either spend some time to return a tape or hold a tape to do their work.
Now just too many useless design in Onryo which is more suitable for add-on:
- condemned lock, who need condemned lock while survivor is being hooked 2 times?
- 0cd projection without condemned stack, it is just a trap that make every TV closed.
- condemned stack within 16m of opened TV, just too hard while survivors can turn off TV for 70s in 1s.
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I agree! :)
As long as the condemn is a bit more threatening! I do enjoy your thoughts and ideas around this. I’ve read your post a few times.
A lot of people including myself I think at this point are getting confused on how her power works because it’s been altered and changed so many times 🤣
Thankfully, I’ve been playing her from the beginning, so I pretty much remember how it worked. I really miss the old tapes though.
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They could do those changes I suggested above and add that you get one stack every 30-60s regardless of doing something. So people wouldn‘t spam condemned and through skillful teleport you could condemn someone faster.
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That’s fair! I like your changes. A lot actually.
I just hate hate hate hate the Cooldown timer on condemn. If it stays I accept it on 1 condition. The TV 📺 I come out of ppl get condemned within your mentioned parameters. 😍
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Why is it free to put a killers power on cool down for 70 SECONDS?
There needs to be at least one stack gained for picking up a tape again, even if there isn't passive condemn on the tape.
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Agreed. It shouldn’t be completely free. My counter to that was bring back passive, condemn, but don’t give them the initial condemn act when they turn the TV off/take the tape.
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Do you think the devs will read the feedback this time and do something with it? I‘m really depressed about what they did after the ptb, everyone said she was either ok or needed buffs and then this. They also said they will eventually gut other playstiles, when they are effective, which makes me think the rework was only there to gut her entirely.
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I personally believe they are going to get it right this time. I do, within two hours of the update they mentioned they were going to fix things.
I think a lesson was learned here. They realized it pretty quickly. I have to believe that this is going to be good. I have to. I refuse to be stuck like this in this condition for the next four years, like it was done to Freddy.
They will make it right in a few weeks, and who knows it might even be better than what we saw in the PTB.
I will remain hopeful, but let’s cross that bridge when we get there. we did our part, they have all the feedback and information necessary to make the appropriate changes at the end of the day. I can’t choose for them to do with their game and how they want to spend their money.
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Probably not - I think they just have this section so it looks like they're listening to their players but ultimately come up with their own internal decisions and ideas. I think this latest update is proof of that.
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I have got a good feeling they listened. I will prove you wrong when the official changes come out. I’m determined. 😅😊
(After it’s all said and done, not just what hits the ptb if it does)
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Well I admire your optimism! I would love them to prove us wrong but I'm doubtful. I guess I'll see you back here next week😆
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One big problem of the global condemned versions is that survivors will always turn of her TVs. I really enjoyed the teleport part of her power and that you could go for condemned in her first version, but it wasn‘t forced like in the past two versions, where survivors turn off all her TVs to counter her.
Yes this is a big issue in any version of her where the survivors are encouraged to engage to grab tapes as part of her counterplay. When this is the case, survivors will grab tapes to avoid condemn, while also denying her mobility in the process. Any system with global condemn (2.0 and 3.0) forces these changes though because survivors have to address condemn aggressively and turn off TVs.
As such, I much prefer it when the condemn threat comes from only 1 TV upon Projection with a higher threat to carrying a tape like in her release version. It was harder to build up but her mobility was not punished nearly as badly. Her release version was fine perfectly balanced in this aspect; to avoid condemn survivors would have to run away from TVs if she teleported in chase. If their condemn got too high by constantly working gens in high traffic areas she teleported to, then they would have to be smart and do a tape run without getting caught. Grabbing a cursed tape (watching it) and then dropping it off (copying it) was a good counterplay mechanic and was very true to her lore. Survivors would be at the most risk of condemn when they touched her TVs.
This resulted in Sadako having a good balance of condemn pressure and mobility since her TVs would almost always be on by survivors where she needed them; this is in contrast to her reworks where TVs are almost always off where she needs them. In 1.0 if survivors really needed a TV off at a critical area to deny her power, such as an almost completed gen or to get a safe unhook, they could always take the TV tape first to deny her mobility and assume the new condemn risk that comes with it. Her release power in my opinion really was the best in terms of risk reward counterplay for her.
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I’ll be looking for you. ❤️😈😈😈
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Therefore I really hope they go back to her first version and buff it. I think that only the one tv you teleport to should give condemned and then the area is split in three parts like I wrote above, where you get more condemned the closer you are to the Tv, when she teleports.
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Not sure if anyone can recall but the first iteration of Sadako also had the same “Jack of all trades, Master of none” design vibe. Applying Condemned via teleports being restricted by the 16m radius and horrendous tv cooldowns. Killer was designed to have Stealth aspects but has a Lullaby in Stealth mode. This contradiction in design combined with a lack of tv interaction from Survivors gave birth to the Rickety Pinwheel + walk around Manifested Sadako build which actually worked on indoor maps. While the Condemn concept + Sadako design was ambitious, someone or some people had misgivings about the Survivors having a “difficult time” which led to all these restrictions on Sadako’s basekit.
I am getting the same vibe from the nerfs added on to her current live version. Once again concerns from probably the same someone or some people were voiced about Survivors possibly being locked at high Condemned stacks after being hooked once and the Condemn “spam” of 3-4 Condemn stacks when all tvs are powered on if Sadako spammed teleport once her power instantly based on her PTB design. This reduces her back to the Jack of all Trades, Master of None version like her first iteration.
I have no idea why BHVR has so much interest in Sadako recently (Her first rework came with Nicholas Cage and her second rework is released alongside Alan Wake) but I hope the devs can make their final decent change with Sadako and stick to it for good.
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The Onryo in the PTB was a step in the right direction but she was still a little weaker than she should be. She just needed a few small buffs to be perfect but instead she got nerfs. Here's what changes should happen to get her to a great state.
- Revert all nerfs to bring her back to the PTB version.
- Make new ring drawing (hooking a survivor with a tape gives everyone else a stack of condemned) basekit. This is the most critical change I think needs to happen. This incentivizes both hooking survivors instead of slugging them and chasing other survivors instead of tunneling since you're spreading pressure. It also creates an actual risk to carrying a tape and gives her condemned power a little more teeth. It is such a healthy mechanic that it should absolutely be incorporated into her basekit.
- Remove the ability for survivors to see the aura of powered TVs when they're close to them. This completely destroys her surprise teleporting stealth potential. Now survivors can just watch the nearby TV aura and prerun when it disappears.
- Improve her UI. Make it so when survivors gain a stack of condemned, their ring flashes a different color. Make the holding a tape indicator a different color as well. Since hooking now locks in stacks, it would be nice if the UI can tell us what survivors are worth hooking. I'm not asking to see the survivors' stacks. Just a generic indicator that lets the Onryo know that a survivor has passed a threshold of new stacks that can be locked in. I'm thinking it should show up when a survivor has 2 or more stacks not locked in.
That's everything from me. Hope this feedback helps and Onryo gets the changes she needs to be fun again because right now, she's miserable.
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I think this is a nerf and encourage killer to focus on a single survivor with condemned.
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I don't know why dev make 0cd projection while they don't want Onryo teleport frequently.
Now Onryo also spread condemned upon teleporting, but in more difficult condition.
If they really want to encourage Onryo to chase survivors, just make the global condemned lesser in teleporting and add global condemned upon basic attack in previous version.
16m of a opened TV is not a viable way to spread condemned because survivors can turn off TV for long time without any risk easily.
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