Is tunneling killing the game?
Comments
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Give killers something stronger than tunneling so they dont tunnel.
Is equal to having Gates powered by default so survivors do totems and chests.
Please give me free win so I will play nicer.
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If you want to play stealthy then play stealthy don't let the forums dissuade you.
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ah you missed the point, tunneling isn't the specific topic of that comment.
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Maps are soo much smaller now, on the Artists map you can literally see all four walls.
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Oh my god, it's not about moral.
You have to understand here, we have a situation that the killer can always win and make the game extremely not fun for the opponent because there is no reason to not do it.
I never said, DO NOT TUNNEL at all, I said that tunneling at 5 gens right away is a problem. Like, I don't know if you play survivor, with that attitude I seriously doubt: imagine the game just started, you have a clown that decided that he is going to tunnel you because he think it's funny to piss people off. Like the moment you got unhook, he is coming back at you, you didn't do anything else than being chase and down by this clown, which will result in a lot of situation a guaranteed win for the killer. There is no reason for the killer to not use that strategy that is not fun for the person that is playing survivor most of the time, because there is no rewards for not doing it, no incentive. You can get as much points as the survivors just by doing that.
I never said neither that gen rush was not a problem, like I play killer too but it feels so much less frustrating and boring than the situation I am talking about.
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It pays off most of the time.
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So are you saying remove points then?
because I know it will never go away completly but I am sure if there is an incentive, there will be less.
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basekit grim embrace will literally just make tunneling more viable because you get free slowdown leaving the hook for a few seconds and can come back and tunnel even freer because the gens are closed off, plus you can easily pair it with deadlock too to give you more time to tunnel. i don't trust that you're not being malicious with this suggestion. xD
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LOL
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Again, it's not about that...
it's about tunneling at 5 gens right away.
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The only way a killer can tunnel at 5 gens is if the other 3 survivors don't get a gen before the first hook. Which is a skill issue on the survivor's part.
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It's not so much tunneling but more of a lack of effort. Matches feel so mindless from both sides.
Why bother playing a match when you're at a 3 vs 1 two minutes in.
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Yep that too. Effortless and rewarding ...
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I both agree and disagree with that. At some point there is nothing you can do if a killer keep chasing you since the start, he will finish by catching you. Thanks god if you are god like and wasted his entire time and the whole team did a great job at doing gens, gg. You know as much as me that it's not what is happening.
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We need more perks that encourage killers to go after all survivors and “spread the wealth.” Blood Warden & No Way Out had the right idea. The reward for going after a different survivor other than the last one unhooked, should be a very good one.
Also, Decisive Strike needs to be buffed back to a 5 second stun.
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It's not about free wins. No other strategy feels impactful. Every thing but tunneling has been nerfed into the ground and can't compete against gen rushing. The problem is constant nerfs, and not just for killers. Survivors don't have anything to do but gens, because nothing else feels impactful.
The solution is not more nerfs, but wholesale buffs to everything. Give hexes a passive buff when they're broken, take it away with pintemento. Let coh self heal, make the self heal immune to all speed upgrades. Make BBQ, thantaphobia, and monstrous shrine good perks. ######### it, make all heal boosts more powerful, but mutually exclusive so they don't stack. Make anything but the current meta useful, because mechanically, tunneling should be the weakest it's ever been
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There's an easy way to fix tunneling. Give survivors immunity off hook (at least before the gens are completed), but give them a secondary objective to complete to 'return to the game'.
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You do realize this would allow the immune Survivor to bodyblock with impunity, and the Killer would be absolutely unable to counter it?
And what happens if a 4-Man SWF decides to all just refuse to 'return to the game'? Now they get to hold it hostage until the Killer ragequits & eats a DC penalty.
Plus, a Survivor can just stay immune until the best time to 'return', basically following the Killer around & reporting on all his actions over Discord.
I love how the 'fix' for Survivor 'I lost' complaints is always the equivalent of 'Give Survivors a mechanic they can horribly abuse to avoid losing ever again.' 😂
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After reflexion, I think we just need a "tournament-like" mode, with the same rules as a tournament, so everyone will be happy, I could try a more "define" mode and other people could keep playing as free as they want with the regular mode:
SURVIVORS
Rules:
- No duplicate perks
- No items (finders keepers allowed)
- No offerings
- No duplicate survivors
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KILLER
Rules:
- Green or lower add-ons are allowed
- Tunneling is not allowed (disable during endgame) : which you couldn't down a survivor after he got unhook without hooking a different one before.
- Can only slug 1 survivor max (disable during endgame): after u kept a survivor on the ground for more than 15 seconds, the next one you don't pickup in the 5 seconds after your weapon cooldown animation stop, can not be picked up and can recover with and endurance and running speed of 10%, knowing that there is no duplicate perks, you have 1/4 chances that the person also have "unbreakable", to keep it fair, if the survivor in question is using that perk, it would be consume at that moment too.
- Only allowed a cypress mori.
---
SEASONS
Every season the devs could pick 7 maps and 28 possible killers that can be played during that season till next 13th where it shuffles again. For each game that players start, there will be 4 random killers among the 28 possibles, OR it could simply be 4 random killers among all the killers and throw the 28 idea in the garbage.
IF THAT KIND OF MODE would exist, I'd be very happy, and I'd probably just play this one, because there is actually efforts on both side and it feels more like a chess game than a casual game where killers can just tunnel at 5 gens, and get as much points in 12 minutes or less with an offering.
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It shouldn't be possible for the killer to eliminate a survivor within the first 2 minutes of the match who is actively trying to avoid the killer. This game needs a foundational change to its playstyle and objectives. If you can't even stay in the match long enough to at least safety pip (which shouldn't be a thing) then there really is no point in even playing. And this isn't a skill issue by the way. Its a gameplay and RNG issue. You can't do anything to stop many killers from focusing you down on maps like the farm where most of the terrain is just open.
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This is exactly how it always happens for me.
I'll play several chill games and win a few. Then I'm suddenly against teams who do gens in parallel while I've only been able to find and get one survivor. They do everything right, they body-block where it counts, ... So I switch gears and I assume from that point on I'm on the sweaty plays levels "forever". (Usually until I'm fed-up and leave the game for a month or two.)
I'd like to know when I'm going in if I'm going against sweat-lords or against care-bears. That should be done when the match starts to avoid lobby dodging. That'd tell me how sweaty I need to be.
I don't want to play competitive but I'm very competitive by nature. If I'm being pushed, I react.
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This game is just straight up unplayable on survivor side.
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Tunneling is definitely not fun to play against. It might be necessary against high level SWF, but it's completely overkill against everyone else. Blame BHVR for incentivizing the most anti-social playstyle. A lot of the negativity in the community is a result of them refusing to make any significant changes to the game. Why does Tombstone piece exist still? Cos Myers is weak and they don't want to rework him. So he gets to keep something that makes matches for survivors absolutely miserable.
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It shouldn't be attached to an "incentive" because many people do it out of spite because of how easy it is to do.
They could get 1 bil points for not tunneling and they'd still do it.
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every single game in a row is literally nothing but camp and tunnel. 100% of all my survivor games. Its about as lame and boring as it gets. Time to only play killer I guess.
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I mean, heaven forbid Killers try to win, amIright?
Survivors can use 12 META perks, be in a SWF, and use Discord.
They also have BT basekit if 'tunneled', which they abuse to bodyblock, then complain that they can still be downed; A mechanic to self-unhook if a Killer 'camps'; A new mechanic that prevents Killers from kicking gens too many times. All basekit.
But a Killer trying to secure kills? That's 'lame' and 'boring' and 'killing the game' and 'toxic'! 🙄
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I highly recommend a video on YouTube by the name of “You’re responsible for your own fun” by Ken. It’ll explain it better than I can wasting my time typing for oblivious survivor mains
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Every thing but tunneling has been nerfed into the ground
You've said this 3 times now, but this is completely untrue.
Remember the medkit and circle nerfs? That was 100% because people told the devs they wanted 'hit and run' as a play style. Those nerfs were specifically a gigantic buff to hit and run.
And you can't even argue that those nerfs weren't effective for that style, because instantly people went from complaining that 'heals are too easy' to 'everyone just plays injured'.
It's that people choose not to play hit and run. They only want to tunnel, because it's easy, efficient, and harder to counter.
The solution is not more nerfs, but wholesale buffs to everything.
No.
We already know this doesn't work. Each and every but is only ever used to tunnel and camp more effectively.
We see it in real time with the in game events, including right now: you can give every killer free, base kit stealth while still allowing their tracking powers, and people are just using that to camp and tunnel harder.
The. Carrot. Does. Not. Work. To deter tunneling, the only way to address it is the stick at this point.
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You'd have a lot more credibility in your arguments if you didn't immediately label anyone who disagrees with you as "oblivious Survivor mains"
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It has historically been proven that the carrot approach to tunneling just does not work. The only thing that kept a lid on tunneling was DS with its 5-second stun, coupled with "DH for distance". DH got reworked, and DS got nerfed.
Tunneling isn't competing with genrushing. Genrushing is a term that gets thrown around a lot to just refer to survivors doing their objective. Survivors are "tunneling generators" if they work on generators that already have progress. They're genrushing, because 3 gens popped in the first 3 minutes and the killer hasn't gotten a down yet (Largely due to poor map design).
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Tunneling isn't competing with genrushing
They are the same thing; Each side trying to win as efficiently as possible.
Genrushing is a term that gets thrown around a lot to just refer to survivors doing their objective.
And tunneling is a term that gets thrown around a lot to just refer to Killers doing their objective.
Survivors are "tunneling generators" if they work on generators that already have progress.
And Killers are 'Tunneling survivors' if they already hook a Survivor they have progress on.
So if 'genrushing' is not real, then neither is 'tunneling'.
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Agreed 100% it's too common there needs to be alternative way more viable stragedy for killers. But at the moment feels tunneling has just gotten easier and easier. Ds should definetely brought back to 5s with 80s timer.
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Not sure if it's killing the game, but certanly has killed my willingness to play survivor for the time being. In the last week i haven't touched the game once as that role.
Things must be really out of control when i've seen some survivors thanking me during endgame chat for not tunneling xD
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All I am going to say is that tunnelling is one of the big reasons I stopped playing DBD overall.
I hate tunnelling and I do not tunnel when I play killer because it ruins the game for me, so I wont subject others to that either.
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So when was the last time you saw any survivor at all try to make the game fairer and funnier to play for the Killer?
Never? Thought so.
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Whataboutism?
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Totally.
I'm just really salty these past days and I resort to basic tribalism when I am.
I keep being told to play fair, not do this or that, meanwhile all I get in return are survivors taunting me and not a single shred of mercy if I'm struggling.
Like, you can't expect sympathy if all you do is bully someone in return.
You can disregard whatever I say honestly it doesn't matter.
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It's not something I'll condone, but it IS understandable.
At some point, we must all do what we find is right. I can't justify playing that way anymore against random people who've done nothing to me and I don't think others should either, but that's why it's an opinion. You don't need to share it.
It's also hard to show restraint as survivor, especially these days. It's really one mistake and you lose.
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Honestly I agree with everything and at this point I should definitely have the same mindset as you do - I mean I've been playing since Huntress or Hag came out. I should be above that. But it still gets to me and I hate it. I don't blame the next team I face but I blame myself for not being good enough.
To be honest I don't even care about tunneling. The only players are tunnel are the bots - so they're not even players.
Idk I'm just rambling
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10000% agree that there seems to be a huge disconnect between the way the developers see the survivor role and the way that players want to play the survivor role. I'm not convinced that the devs think there is even a problem with survivor gameplay right now. The playerbase might have to slowly dwindle even more for it to dawn on them.
Also, another thing people seem to miss regarding tunneling: a player probably went down in an area for a reason. Either a deadzone, combination of killer power+tile layout, whatever. If a player is then hooked in that same area (remember that a good killer has a brain), they might easily go down in that area again for those same reasons. And if it's a deadzone, there's not much you can do about that. A shocking amount of players straight up don't understand this. I don't know if it's only playing one side, being inexperienced, or what. A sentient killer isn't going to proc an on-hit speed boost out of a dead zone or favorable area if they want to tunnel someone out.
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I swear to god guys, the moment I played with tournament rules (the ones I said in my Edit #2 of my main thread), the game was so much more fun and it was absolutely not one sided, it was mostly tight. Just because both side were restraint in some ways and actually had to think more than using their au ra perks, or abusing meta perks by having the whole team having the same build or same add-ons, everyone had to use more than the minimum of their god damn brain. It was such a breath of fresh air.
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I am not a survivor main, I go where the bonus points are.
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^ It's not a us vs them, it's a good game or a bad game. Its simply bad gameplay and needs to be changed for the health of the overall game. Its not about who 'wins' so much as is it fun gameplay, its really that simple.
Post edited by BoxGhost on3 -
Fwiw it made all my friends quit.
There have been countless suggestions yet no change. No one wants to feel frustrated on either side.
When I get tunneled it doesnt bother me, it's just boring. I'll turn off the game and do something more productive. Sometimes I don't turn it back on for ages, but who cares tbh lol
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The problem lies in a system that doesn't harm either side's chances and can't be used as a weapon.
I remember wanting to drop this game because of the Dead Hard/Decisive Strike meta when I started playing around the Sadako release. I also remember when basekit BT was added and survivors, to this day, still try to use it to bodyblock instead of using it to get to a safe spot. And I'm sure we know the little exploits with the anti-facecamp using killers like Bubba or Wesker to tunnel out someone quickly regardless. The problem with giving survivors or killers too much is they weaponize it anyway.
I think my favorite compromise was making unhooked survivors 'ethereal' and unable to bodyblock, be damaged, be seen, or do any task for a duration of time so they can safely get to a location away from the killer.
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The fact that the game is balanced(2dead2alive) even with tunneling.
That means killer would lose(kill<=1) every game if they are not tunneling.
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Thank you!
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More people need to bring the Babysitter perk. I feel like it's slept on. Someone unhooked me with it and I managed to immediately lose a tunnelling Nurse on Haddonfield of all maps. It's made me bring it every now and then in case the killer comes back to hook for the person I've just unhooked. They usually have no choice but to chase me instead.
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Yes!! Tournament mode is all I want. I would play only this mode! I don't mind spending more time in lobby prepairing for the match. Just few comments:
- I would change antitunnel mechanic to "Unhooked Survivor becomes invulnerable until Killer HITS another Survivor 1 time". This should be enough IMHO. Otherwise unhooked Survivor would have too much free precious time.
- Limited Killers is great idea! I would go with 3 random Killers (from whole roaster) randomly selected before the match + 1 Killer which is set as FAVORITE by the Killer player. That way Killer can still play his main AND survivors will know that they are facing one of 4.
The rest is perfectly written.
Devs, please!
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It's not balanced as a 2v2 what???
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