The Hillbilly Feedback
Comments
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I partially agree with your first point, but not the rest.
The way Tmix interacts with LoPro is a huge issue, but this is because the way LoPro activates was changed this patch, and the extra c/d reduction happening with it is making it miserable. Tmix+C/D addons should NOT apply to LoPro, but they do. The same goes for, those c/d add-ons are applying to Overdrive right now and they should not be per the descriptions.
Turning rate (boots) add-ons have ALWAYS let you zoom around Haddonfield, or Ormond, etc...the thing is, before Overdrive, any build around "Drift Billy" was useless. You'd be lucky to get 3 hooks with those kind of builds, including Stealth Billy, because he was SO SLOW. Now Drift Billy isn't insanely strong, but it's actually a viable play style for more than 3 hooks on very unaware survivors. Drift Billy truly is the chillest form of Billy, because they aren't using LoPro, Engraving, or Recovery to help in chase, they're relying on sniping downs and praying that Overdrive procs at the right time to be able to catch a survivor off guard. Not to mention, if you aren't running Apex/Boots, it's ridiculously hard to catch survivors off guard with standard Drift Billy, which is why these add-ons are balanced when combined. To put in perspective how chill most people are with those add-ons, my friend WhiteNoiseDesign often does steering wheel Billy with those add-ons (pre-billy buff), because it was fun to "cruise". Nobody runs them together to try hard.
If someone is using double boots for curving, they're just kind of hurting themselves. The initial sens period will always be MUCH more turn rate than anything boots will do, so they should learn how to do that.
When it comes to Lo Pro, I think it's fine when not combined with Tmix. It's freeing to not feel like I permanently have to run Brutal Strength - It literally has not left my perks for the last 2 years. It's nice to feel like I can mix it up and run LoPro if I want and still run "double engravings", or something else, because I've always enjoyed Doubles Billy more and never got to run LoPro if I wanted to do that, but now I can.
LoPro is very strong, but it only feels ridiculously strong right now, because of Tmix being combined with it. I don't know how different it is in different regions, but every single match I play as Billy (been this way for years) 3/4 survivors minimum pre-drop pallets constantly. If it's not a curvable tile / they shift w to each new pallet to pre-drop..I either have to permanently give up a slot for Brutal again, or run LoPro. LoPro really does have a lot of counter play, but most people are just not good at doing it , yet and I can 100% agree it feels terrible to outplay LoPro right now and with Tmix, they just turn around and either M1 or back rev you.
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Pallet break speed did not get touched though? Or am I missing something? It should also not be that much different compared to Bubba.
As for the turn rate I don't know how much it got changed if even?
I have to disagree there, I don't think missing is rewarded... Just because the penalty is not as bad as it used to be... You still only get an opportunity not really anything else by missing a chainsaw just barely... And that is somewhat fine.
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I don't think billy is strong enough vs top 1% of players. Here's two buffs that to make him viable vs top 1%.
1) Overdrive:
Decreases chainsaw charge time increased from 5% -> 15%.
2) Tuning guide no longer decreases hillbilly movement speed to 4.4.
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I guess that is a joke? Because basically making him have 35% less charge time overdrive is basically insta saw...
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As a killer main he seems a bit too strong, the overdrive feels unnecessary and I don’t know if the intention is that he can just use his insta-down m2 so much m1 seem superfluous.
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not a joke. current chainsaw is too map dependent.
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He needs punishment for missing a saw hit on the survivor and has no countdown is bad for the game. The rest looks fine.
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TLDR:
- Addons are too bugged with extra values and powers to truly give feedback.
- Chainsaw volume amp is #1 priority before anything else.
- Maps are still the main problem with anyone's enjoyment in DBD.
I watched a Billy player attempt a hud-shrinked, slowdownless streak using:
- Bamboozle, Enduring, Noed, Lethal Pursuer
- Thompson House Mix & Lo Pro chains
This has brought new things to my attention:
Thompson Mix / Greased Throttle need a recode because of the cooldown they give to BUMPS.
There is no reason that this add-on should have a dual effect of bumps and missed/hit cooldowns when there are add-ons specified for bumps at the same rarity or lower. Until these 4 add ons - bump & cooldown - operate as intended with their numbers and effects, any feedback we give is from a tainted sample.
First priority for BHVR needs to be amping the volume for the chainsaw to old Off Brand Motor Oil levels.
Not enough survivors are getting the necessary heads up to avoid the snipes they are raging the most about. People are discussing that Billy is too oppressive in chase when in reality they are having trouble hearing the chainsaw to give themselves proper positioning to succeed in the chase to begin with. Even with the bugged addons, I believe that Billy is still not as oppressive as people think.
Maps are still a problem for Billy even with the best add on combo + unintended buffs from bugged add ons. The map design team has more work to do, alternatively deleting map offerings altogether.
I watched the streak end on a map offering to Gideon Meat. Granted, the expectation of a killer running 0 slowdowns of any kind is a bit of a niche scenario to say the least. But this speaks to the issue still being as it's always been - consistency with maps for either side affecting gameplay enjoyment. I understand BHVR has the philosophy of no 2 matches being the same, which is fair, and the valleys buoyed by the peaks. And the level of engagement by leaving the map generation so varied from functional to broken on either side. But again, the feedback can't be constructive until BHVR makes it clear their stance on the map design.
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Overdrive is reached too quick, you don't have enough time to react when comes at you with overdrive his cooldown is too forgiving.
I don't get why he does not need to slow down for his attack. If he tailgates you it's a guaranteed down. If you manage to spin him somehow his cooldown is forgiving enough for you not to make any distance. Currently his power is like a spam mail.
I don't think there is a single killer which benefits from using his power the entire match. And I think there shouldn't be one. His power is unlimited, too forgiving and too fast.
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"I don't think there is a single killer which benefits from using his power the entire match."
I'll start from the entire roster:
- Nurse
- Huntress
- Hag
- Clown
- Spirit
- Plague
- Demo
- Slinger
- Pyramidhead
- Blight
- Trickster
- Nemesis
- Cenobite
- Artist
- Wesker
- Knight
- Skull Merchant
- Chucky
"I don't think there is a SINGLE killer which benefits from using his power the entire match."
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I give you nurse. However every other killer has a significant power cooldown or downside. Billy does not. Aside from the nurse which will probably forever the exception on everything a killer as strong as Billy with infinite power and no downside to it is too much.
But sure keep focussing on one sentence, ignoring all the other points I've made in a desperate atempt to invalidate my argument. The following sentence was refering to the power being unlimited. But sure enough you ignored it
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I give you nurse and maybe clown but every other killer has a significant power cooldown or downside. Aside from nurse which probably will forever be the exception on everything none of the killers I named in the last sentence are close to the level billy is at in his current overbuffed broken status.
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just get rid of the add ons that decrease his recovery time ,it feels massivly unfair atm
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Literally not a single killer on this list uses their power the whole game like Billy besides Nurse....
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He's just overtuned at the moment, plain and simple. Stop removing interesting interactions and viable counterplay to killers. There's absolutely no reason the cooldown add-ons should be in the game, they promote poor interactions between the survivor and killer. Making him miss with his chainsaw is no longer a benefit, it just extends the chase 5 seconds before you inevitably go down. Nothing feels worse in this game than just accepting that you have to die either due to very poor map layouts or overtuned anti-chase powers.
Add into this that almost everyone is running a similar build with him that typically includes a mix of Bamboozle, Enduring, Superior Anatomy, Fire Up, or Spirit Fury. Truly, what is the counterplay? Windows become pointless with Bamboozle, Superior Anatomy and/or Fire Up, hes right back on you in 2 seconds. Enduring and Spirit Fury are fantastic on him and unless you know it's coming, a free down. It's entirely map dependent. Some maps are absolutely terrible for him and some are absolutely unwinnable for survivors.
Also, what's the counterplay to him tailgating now? You make him miss on his chainsaw and guess what? Unless you're literally right next to a window or pallet, there is no viable counterplay that doesn't depend on the killer being bad with the power.
Stop taking away the interesting interactions in the game that give the game a fun push and pull. Right now with Billy, there's only pull, no push. In all due respect, it's decisions like these that make me wonder if there's any actual testing done, and instead, an over reliance on a community that can't agree on what the color red is. There's no way that Billy with double cooldown add-ons made it past playtesting and QA. There's literally just no way.
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Oni's power is very limited and got nerfed so no more nerfs for him. He should be buffed to get his power more easily in the beginning of the match.
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I just wish theyd rework the cooldown and dissipation addons. The dissipation addons arent even ran by new billys since they know to tap the saw for a second. And cooldown is why he was nerfed the first time.
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Survivor main with Plague in profile. Sure.
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Judging someone with their profile is pretty silly
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I play mainly Kate and Felix. I play solo Q about 80% of the time, but I enjoy playing killer about 20% of the time, Plague and Bubba are my two favourites.
I don't have any "one-side" biaised opinion, and I despise the tribal "Us vs them" postures.
Even if you don't trust me, I'm calling for a basekit killer nerf, that is stronger than what the devs applied (add-ons nerf).
Isn't my suggestion ""survivor sided" in your standards, or do you feel the need to contradict yourself ?
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Or maybe he is spot on, maybe you got tricked and I'm a double agent who actively partcipate to a toxic killer main conspiracy ? :D
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I red that Billy main problem back in the day was the "instasaw". Understand the chainsaw charge time before starting to sprint.
It let very few time for survivors to react. And then they overnerfed him with overheat and add-ons nerf etc.
The cooldown is different, it means now he can recover faster after missing a chainsaw sprint.
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instasaw nerf was justified, and it was made when maps were much stronger for survivors than today. and on top of that, his cooldown feels like launch date Xeno where juking his power means nothing and you die 3 seconds later unless you're inches from a pallet. this is not balanced
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Instasaw nerf was justified, but they went way too hard on the nerf back in the day and the killer became very unpopular.
The cooldown nowadays needs a nerf indeed, even if you exaggerate when you say dodging his power means nothing and survivors "die 3 secs later".
Damn that's so dramatic, Billy sounds like a monster compare to Nurse.
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You never know, maybe he is right, I trick you all, maybe I am a double agent that is working for a toxic killer main conspiracy :D
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Billy's shadow nerf and listed nerf is fair and proper.
A few of the things I noticed:
- This is the only change listed on the patch notes: cooldown add-ons no longer give bump reduction NOR do they function in overdrive any longer. Meaning when a killer is in overdrive, their cooldown will be buffed from basekit, but they will not outpace Thompson Mix.....
So the mythical "spam saw and tailgate" tech you all cried about is no longer as viable because: - NOT listed on the patch notes: the missed cooldown saw movement speed got a nerf as well. There was a very small "catch up" boost you got after a missing a saw that put you briefly faster than 115% for like a quarter of a second. That's' gone now. Missing a saw is tangibly more punishing than it was prior to the hotfix.
- NOT listed on the patch notes: chainsaw audio is fixed. Old off brand motor oil volume is now basekit for survivors, and the volume is fine on the killer side.
- NOT listed on the patch notes: collision zone was also readjusted to be slightly bigger. This again is a map team problem to help fix, and not just those working on the killer code.
As such, most people are getting used to Billy and making far less complaints, based on how inactive this thread has gotten.
BHVR has fixed the main 2 problems I had with Billy prior - cleaning up his code and fixing his audio cue for survivors. Combine that with the removal of the cooldown movement speed, and slightly enlarging his collision zone, this is a good nerf.
My newer concerns/requests now:
- BHVR can double the values of his overdrive and collision add ons without issue. If not, combine the values of them and bring back mother's helpers, black grease, big buckle.
- There needs to be some type of FOV hit box adjustment. The 103 max FOV isn't scaling as well to the hitbox as "default" 87 FOV is. I'm not suggesting to buff the hitbox, but it's not lining up as well with the saw as it should with lower FOV.
- PLEASE reconsider doubling the values of collision and overdrive values PLEASE.
Excellent job taking the feedback with a grain of salt, BHVR.
0 - This is the only change listed on the patch notes: cooldown add-ons no longer give bump reduction NOR do they function in overdrive any longer. Meaning when a killer is in overdrive, their cooldown will be buffed from basekit, but they will not outpace Thompson Mix.....
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With the recent changes to Billy's cool-down add-ons, I'd suggest the following:
- Chainsaw hit cool-down is 2.5s (was 2.7s)
- Greased Throttle: During Overdrive, the duration of pallet stuns are decreased by 50%.
- The Thompson's Mix: Shows the auras of Survivors within 8 meters when revving the Chainsaw.
Also, please remove the camera-motion when walking as Hillbilly.
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Are you talking about the camera bobbing? I think they added that because he limps. But yea it should be removed because I and probably several others don’t like it.
Post edited by Moodyy on0 -
Can we bring back his original chainsaw animations?
They looked a lot smoother and better than his current ones?
Here are GIFs of how they looked from Billys and Survivors POV:
Chainsaw Miss Animation:
Chainsaw Hit Animation:
Revving Animation from Survivor POV he used to lean to the side and walk normal when he revs the chainsaw:
Also can his weapon be raised up a bit more from Billys POV especially when he's moving it used to be a bit higher up:
87 FOV:
103 FOV:
Please BHVR do some polishing on his animations thank you.
Post edited by Moodyy on2 -
Or....hear me out.....change his 50 million dissipation add-ons that could be combined into one. It's almost like you didn't look at his add-ons besides the cooldown ones.
I gotta give it to you though, of all the feedback possible in this thread and your focus on "old animations" has stayed true for the last almost 4 years. "Causing motion sickness" is a giant overused term when maybe "I don't like how it looks" could fit your opinion better.
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I fixed it. Also yea I’ve been writing posts about his animations for years and will do more in the future lol. It would probably have a better chance in a separate feedback post because I think they are done with billy.
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Billy was great after his rework, everybody have told you not to touch him. But you guys decided to nerf his cooldown movement speed which made him feel sluggish again. Absolutely terrible change
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Billy really can't be expected to be able to M2 survivors outside of the curve range. So if he isn't allowed to zone survivors with his M2, then we're back to Billy only using his chainsaw at close range, unless Billy is trying to travel long distances.
I get why the changes were made, but Billy is boring now, because I would be spending most of the time just walking around in chases, unless I need to travel long distances. At this point, I'd rather just play Wraith instead, since Wraith can travel across indoor maps way easier than Billy can.
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Please revert the movement speed change and rework some of his add-ons. Namely both cool-down and dissipation add-ons.
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Oh my lord what have you guys done to Billy again?? You have completely messed with my muscle memory with this initial turn rate change. You guys can't keep changing things like this every week, forcing us to constantly have to relearn how to play our main, it's extremely frustrating. Can you please revert the initial rate turn? What is this even fixing, I don't get it?
Billy was finally in a good place where it didn't feel like hell to play him and now we're back to square one. I've already had to completely relearn how to handle the chainsaw because his new speed makes it hard control and now you're asking me to do it all over again a couple weeks later. I don't understand why you can't just leave this killer alone?
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THIS UPDATE IS FANTASTIC. I LOVE IT. The new curve window is SO NICE.
But you guys are late to the party and barely figured it out. His cooldown walk speed was shadownerfed last hotfix last week. They just published the changes in this week's patch. And this week they brought back the ability to move after bumping into a wall. I'd say it's a great lateral move that evens the playing field between bumping and cooldown, making it so we're not so afraid to full send saws anymore.
Addons wise, cool down finally got a nerf to where it's not "insufferable" to most people and it doesn't stack anymore with the rest of his code. It's only dissipation that needs to be reworked. Which I'll keep saying:
BHVR can double the values of the idler screw, kickback chains, ragged engine, clogged intake, and off brand motor oil, and they'd be okay. Rework the lesser tiers of those add-ons and we're in business.
The issue was that people were having difficulty making meaningful curves happen with such a small margin for error in overdrive or doom + overdrive. By adding an extra .25 seconds to the curve window, there is now a much more comfy curve frame for all speeds to hit. It's SO good. You just have to practice.
And if you're refusing to practice at this point, you're a being pretty petty about it. We got a massive buff to him with this latest patch, because his extra curve window allows for so much room to correct in overdrive. We now have a more level playing field with his kit to survivors having a louder saw (thankfully) and also an audio prompt as to when his cooldown is up.
All of these updates have made Billy far more viable across different maps, and BHVR is doing an excellent job tuning him down fairly while rewarding us who can adjust on the fly. Sorry that you can't adjust to new things.
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I dont like new chainsaw miss cooldown speed, it feels awful compared to what it was before 7.5.2.
Eventually you could make the speed a little slower, now misses feel too punishing.(Nah, its fine, but still feels wierd)
Sob...
All problem with misses was on cooldown addons!
U fixed addons, then speed after miss.
What next? Overdrive itself?
Revert miss cooldown speed change plz!
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Now. Curve has superpowers with hug tech!
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I’m hoping someone makes a video montage, of hits they got because of the longer curve window, that wouldn’t have been possible with the previous curve window. Because I’m not super convinced the longer curve window will actually result in a lot more successful M2 hits.
Controlling Billy during the curve window is still massively clunky, and a relic of how badly some of the killer powers were coded long ago. Having a longer curve window might actually bring down Billy’s kill rate overall, as there are probably a lot of people that aren’t very good at controlling Billy during the curve window, and now the curve window is longer.
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Thank you for the feedback everyone! We'll be unpinning this thread now, but please feel free to continue sharing your thoughts in this section of the forums.
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Do you mean make a new thread?
I have to be honest, this recent patch managed to take Billy from my all time favorite killer to play/verse to my my most disliked to vs and feels insanely unsatisfying to play.
Please, above all else, revert the change to the sensitivity window. It makes Billy feel ungodly boring to play. No down feels satisfying. No mind games are needed, I can simply outplay a jungle gym from the other side of it without the survivor having any idea.
My favorite part of Billy was how satisfying downs were, because they required very good play on your side to get. They also required the survivor misplay, but now no matter what they do, it will be a down if you're even a remotely decent Billy. Even with how strong you guys recently made him, it still required good mind games and proper zoning to curve, etc. I assume that the increased sensitivity period is to try and band-aid fix the changing sens between non-overdrive and overdrive, but this is a terrible fix and needs to be reverted.
I am genuinely considering no longer maining Billy, because I don't feel I am outplaying my opponent with skill, simply an insta down killer that can outplay almost any tile in the game with this change. You've taken away so much player agency when vsing him as well, it just feels terrible. I have always been so very excited to vs Billy, like I said, he's my favorite killer. I now feel frustration if I see they're even slightly good at him, because I know what I do does not matter, I will die.
BIG TAKEAWAYS, seriously, please listen to this......
- Revert the sensitivity window change - it deletes skill floor and ceiling for billy <-- THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT OUT OF EVERYTHING
- The base miss c/d change was not needed, you should have deleted one of his cool down add-ons instead of nerfing base-kit, because he felt very good base-kit without being broken.
- If you are DETERMINED to keep the nerf to his miss c/d, please do not remove the movement after bonking, it makes up for how sluggish he feels from "missing", because it is very common to zone survivors by "missing".
- Instead of a billion Overdrive add-ons, give us back some of the older addons as mentioned before - Leafy Mash, Big Buckle, etc. We are finally at a point where we aren't add-on reliant and you take away literally any interesting add-ons. Another good suggestion was making Cracked Primer Bulb permanent Overdrive, but still one health state.
- While the sensitivity between Overdrive and non-Overdrive is still an issue, most of us have managed to deal with it after a lot of practice this last couple of weeks. While it still needs to be ADDRESSED, because it makes using his power at smaller loops insanely hard, it is not worth destroying how enjoyable Billy normally is to play / vs to fix it. I think the vast majority of us that don't want free wins would keep the way sensitivity was last week over this change.
- You already managed to make Billy beginner accessible with the addition of Overdrive, it helps with a lot of things and can help carry a new Billy against newer survivors, you do NOT need an increased turn window for this.
- Killers with massive map mobility and an insta down ability should require a moderate amount of skill to do good with and you've removed that requirement with this change. Instead you've changed him to a VERY BORING insta-down killer.
- If you think people were upset about BIlly's miss c/d with double c/d or tmix/lopro, just wait till more people realize how broken/free you've made Billy with this change. They will pray for you to revert it, too.
- Last weeks version of Billy was SO close to perfect, but you went extremely heavy handed with this change and it's a mistake. If you listen to the stuff above, you will make Billy mains that like having Billy strong, but fair and SATISFYING to get downs with, VERY HAPPY. Survivors were already getting better at versing new Billy, but you are taking away them learning how to "loop" and "play tiles" by making it INSANELY UNSAFE no matter what. The ideal way to vs him now is to pretend to play the tile and leave, every single time. People main Billy for the chase and mind games, you've taken away any need for that and have basically told survivors, "if you want any chance of survival, stop interacting with Billy".
I can't stress enough how sad this update makes me. For years Billy has been my favorite, even when he was a struggle with Overheat, because nothing compared to how satisfying getting a well earned curve felt....then you took away all of that enjoyment with this change. I just don't know how to stress this anymore than, you ruined my favorite killer. I'm trying to be positive, but man...this took me from being excited to log on every day (for the first time in years, mind you...7.1k hours, and I haven't been so excited in such a long time), to me struggling to even make myself play Billy at all.
Below are some examples of clips that were shared with me during my stream, and some are me as well. This sens window change literally makes him uncounterable at certain loops and just overall so boring. I just can't say it more than that.
Tell me how a survivor would ever know this is coming or how to counter it? It requires no mind games, just having a rough idea where the person is. While this is definitely an impressive clip, it shows you just how ridiculous good BIllys will be with this and how bad it will be to vs them.
This clip is me at a Jungle gym and the Billy is wearing just one pair of boots in this clip. So, Overdrive + the new sens window allows him to not mind game at all and still down me here. I have so much distance on him, this should not be possible. He would have needed to go at least DOUBLE where he started that curve at before he could curve me previously, so i would have made the inside of the Jungle Gym, which is FAIR and leaves room for counter play. I feel like I need to get ahead of this and say - OVERDRIVE IS FINE, the mechanic is well balanced, nerfing it does not resolve the issue this change created, you just make him weaker without bringing back the reward of skill depth and ceiling - the sens period needs to be reverted and you bring back so much enjoyment.
This isn't the best clip, but I just haven't felt like playing him since this change. I think it's a good example of removing player agency on survivor side. This isn't the best tile, but Toba Landing collision is terrible, and I am able to start the curve MUCH earlier than I normally would and since the sens window is SO LONG NOW, Renato outplays me and doesn't go to vault the pallet, he goes WIDE, but I can see him and I change my course mid turn window. How is that fair to him? He outplayed me by not just camping/vaulting, and I'm now only able to start the curve early, but completely correct my mistake.
This is another clip that was shared with me and in my opinion it is one of the hardest tiles in the game for Billy. There is a lot of player agency at this pallet normally, and if a survivor insta drops it I will normally immediately break it. However, you've made his turn window so long that I can just completely ignore this pallet....there should be strong loops against Billy like there were last week and I can attempt to outplay them and hope the survivor makes a mistake. I shouldn't be able to just completely disregard proper spacing / awareness.
Finally, one more example given to me. This survivor has good spacing and is playing well vs Billy at a pallet that is VERY STRONG vs him. However, it doesn't matter, because he's able to correct his curve SO LATE.
I don't know what else I can say, except...please...please revert this change. I miss playing him already, but I just do not find him enjoyable now. It's like you gave me a brand new toy after years of Billy being so ungodly weak, then after letting me play with it a little, you took it away, then gave me a replacement that I hate.
I appreciate you guys trying to continue improving him, but I beg you...please listen to those of us that have mained Billy for years and don't want him OP, just strong and fair. Read my previous feedback posts, I go GREATLY in depth - I spent hours writing things like this for you guys.
There are many other very skilled Billy mains that I talked into giving feedback in this thread previously. Pretty much every single one of them agree they hate this change and it has ruined their favorite character. They're biding their time trying to hit crazy clips, but praying it's reverted. I'd try to get them to submit more feedback, but after I got them to come give feedback before and none of it appears to have been listened to, except chainsaw volume, most of them don't want to waste their time, because they feel like you aren't listening to the consistent feedback that was given. I appreciate you guys trying to continue to improve Billy, but when you have a community of people that are giving you very precise and helpful feedback, constructively, it'd feel really nice to know that it's not going unheard, since this change feels like you guys did not listen to people that didn't just complain, etc.
I don't want to trouble them to do so, but I will say Lynn & Zain (the two in the picture below) are literally two of the best Billys. Zain literally mained Billy during pre-buffed Overheat until now BASE-KIT. He knows Billy inside and out, and Lynn is a non-meta add-on user as well.
Lastly, a screen shot from a Discord of Billy mains. I hope they don't hate me for sharing this, but since I don't feel they will believe their feedback is listened to, they may not bring it to you, so I'm going to.
Most of the people in this Discord have either thousands of hours in Billy, or really enjoy killers that have a high skill ceiling / recently got back into Billy due to his rework. The response seems to be roughly the same amongst most of them. So, from semi-new (but high skill killer enjoyers) to extreme Billy Veteran, people agree this change is a mistake.
Even the people that are saying keep the 1 second window during Overdrive are ONLY saying that, because they don't know if you have an idea on how to eventually fix the Overdrive sens, but the majority of us would rather it just be the way it was before if it can't be resolved in a way that doesn't ruin him (like the current change does).
Alright, I'm done talking your ear off, I just...man, I'm so sad about this. I feel so unsure if I'll ever be able to enjoy Billy again, because I don't know if you'll even consider reverting this. I'd legitimately take Overheat Billy before having this increased sensitivity window, because he feels so boring to play. I think that's kind of crazy, if you think about it. I'd rather play a very weak killer that massively struggles with DBD maps in 2024, than play the new shiny killer you gave us, because you increased the sensitivity window. It seems like a small change, but it truly ruins any sort of actual skill expression.
I hope you took time to read this, I realize it's a long one, but I felt I needed to do this in case others didn't feel they'd be listened to, so it'd be a waste of time.
I'm always available for back and forth if you'd like to talk Billy and the Billy mains that actually want a strong balanced killer would very much appreciate an open dialogue on if you'll consider reverting this change, etc.
Thanks for your time, Slow Loris
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Thread is unpinned. Billy is gonna stay as is for a while now (just like Trickster)
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I really hope not. I don't think I'll be playing him until this is reverted. If it's not reverted, I guess I no longer get to play my favorite killer.
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Please revert the basekit changes from 7.5.2.
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I'm a surv and Billy main, I've been playing billy for over 2 years and I agree with a lot that's been said here. the inital turn rate increase is problematic.
my biggest issue with this change is that it removes the majority of counterplay that Billy had (and honestly should have), pretty much every loop in the game is unsafe against this version of Billy no matter how you play it. It makes him feel unfun, even unfair to play against. Playing as him also doesn't feel much better, you now require less precision, less timing, less skill to pull off good chainsaw hits, it just doesn't feel rewarding anymore.
Billy was in an almost perfect spot after the 7.5.0 update, all he needed was a little nerf to his cooldown, changing the initial turn rate window was never necessary in my opinion. If you really think buffing this aspect of Billy is a good idea and don't want to revert it then maybe consider making it 0.80 or 0.85 seconds, this would still be a decent buff but it wouldn't be so overtuned.
I honestly think if this change stays it has potential to ruin Billy for a lot of players on BOTH sides and that would be incredibly sad. Billy is one of the most beloved killers in the community, for the people who play him and the people who play against him, please don't take that away from him.
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@Peanits I know that you have unpinned the forum, but I really implore you to read the quoted post and give my post due diligence as well. This feedback is important, to a LOT of billy mains, people who have poured countless hours of our lives in dedication to this killer and enjoying him.
This has been the worst week I have ever experienced playing this killer, not because he was weak and miserable like he was during Overheat, which I loved and adored him throughout the entirety of. Not because he was strong in contrast to the skill levels of my opponents like he was during the days of Insta-saw and Crack billy, which I played religiously for the 3 years (about) of its existence.
After 14 thousand, and 4 hundred hours, we finally got the PERFECT billy, Overdrive was a perfect rework of Overheat that added an extra management and skill expression to the killer which made him feel rewarding to play. His values were adjusted and there was a lot to relearn about the killer, and he was in such a fantastic spot.
Then he was patched, you guys reworked him based on disingenuous feedback, from people who did not understand the actual problems the killer was facing, they were inexperienced, and they spoke from a place of ignorance.
The truth of the matter is the following things are ACTUALLY the problem:
REVERT the Curve timing change made in the patch, return the value from 1 second to .75. I will attach clips of things that are simply unfair that this killer is capable of achieving such levels of strength, and keep in mind, the answer is not NERFING anything, it is simply fixed by reverting the change he got.
Addons, there is no reason for the killer to have so many addons based around OD, especially when prior to these changes, he was JUST escaping an addon reliant existence he languished in for so long. Give us back Leafy Mash, Big Buckle, Mothers Helpers, let us have fun with the killer now that different addons are now actually viable!
The cd change is perfectly fine, if this is the direction you wish to take, to address cd stacking and the problems of cd reduction, I respect it, I do not however think it was NECESSARY to nerf base cd when you could've just taken Greased Throttle and used it to do what I previously mentioned about addons. and for the love of all that is holy, rework Lopro so that it counts as its OWN cd, instead of a "saw cd" so that it doesn't interact with cd addons anymore. This will make the addon suitably strong and give his zoning potential a much-needed hit, instead of overall gutting his cd.
Now for the clips!
The first will be a clip explaining in depth, how in a situation on one of the strongest tiles in the game, a good billy, a billy MAIN, explains in detail how there is no SAFE decision she can make, that doesn't result in her down:
Then Ill include several other curves that should not be possible, or if possible, only with a PERFECT curve, and not with the degree of skillessness I did in these clips:
PLEASE consider listening to this feedback BHVR, this killer is not rewarding anymore, they have become unfun to play, and they are literally so strong and free right now, that its BAFFLING that more people arent complaining, you were SO CLOSE to perfect. We were RIGHT THERE, and you let it slip...
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I feel like I've said almost everything I can within the posts I've put here, but I wanted to add some final thoughts, because I've realized what frustrates me most about these changes.
By increasing Billy's turn window, you've given him an "identity crisis". That sounds a little crazy, so let me explain. Before this change, Billy was and always has been a back and forth killer in chase that requires precision and mind games to achieve downs. The buffs you gave him (besides turn window increase) were very needed and much appreciated to bring him into 2024. However, the turn window increase changed how you play vs him and as him.
He is no longer a killer that requires precision / mind games, he is a killer that with barely any practice will achieve most things that GOOD Billy players could do pre-turn window buff and extremely skilled Billys will make him feel as if you are playing verse an insta-down Blight. This is what I mean about identity crisis. I no longer feel as if I'm playing against or AS Billy, I feel like I'm playing as or against Blight. If I had to compare it to something, it's a lot like Adrenaline Vial/Crow Blight (before the nerfs). Use 5 dashes and miss all of them, but you have 2 more + speed to correct your mistake and get a hit. Pretty much everyone hated versing that. With the turn window increase you've effectively removed Billy's skill floor, but gave him "2 more dashes" to correct with if a survivor out plays him, so they are forced to act as if they are versing Blight. This will stop survivors from actually playing tiles, because the most effective way to verse him is pretend to play the tile and disconnect or "crouch tech" him until he either M1s you or walks you down for a back rev.
I did not sign up to main Blight, I mained Billy through all of his suffering, because I enjoyed the satisfaction of being greatly rewarded for precision and mind games, but you've essentially turned him into Blight.
While I know many people that play on Controller are probably celebrating this change, because it makes him insanely easier to play, that's not an excuse for changing Billy's killer identity. This is a band-aid fix that 100% should have been tested on the upcoming PTB and definitely should not be accepted as okay, just so Billy is overall massively easier. I am not trying to gate-keep Billy, I am simply saying that Billy should require skill to do well with, because you have made him strong. Even if you nerfed the rest of his kit, but kept the increased turn window, you do not give him his identity back, because he STILL wouldn't require mind games/precision to get downs and would still be played the exact same way as Blight, but garbage.
I know MANY very skilled controller Billys that could do pretty much every single thing that PC gamers could do with practice, so being on a controller honestly is not an excuse for needing an increased window. While I know that Overdrive is probably much harder to handle on controller, it's not an excuse to completely change how Billy plays / interacts with survivors. This should 100% be addressed with an actual FIX and not a band-aid, so we can work on the sensitivity being more consistent between Overdrive / Non-Overdrive to help everyone, including controller players, but Billy should not lose what makes him BILLY, so another band-aid can be applied like the beamer buffer, because desync caused Flashlights to be almost useless for ages. MOST OF US were getting used to the changing sensitivity. Even if it was a bit frustrating at smaller loops, we were getting muscle memory for every other loop. I don't speak for everyone, obviously, but the vast majority of people I have spoke to would be fine with you going through trial and error to FIX the sensitivity between the two until you find something that works, instead of doing THIS.
I no longer enjoy versing Billy, because I don't feel I'm actually versing BILLY. I have advocated for Billy buffs for years and I fought IN THIS THREAD to stop you from nerfing him, because most of the complaints were people that just did not understand how to verse him, but the turn window is not balanced against the average survivor, and overall just makes him require very little skill while moving him into a top 3/4 killer by those that are medium skill with him. This change in a few weeks will take Billy from a beloved killer to one of the most hated killers and the people that enjoyed playing him, because of the interaction in chase will no longer enjoy playing him (myself included).
Below are some clips of Lynn, a very skilled Billy main with multiple types of add-ons, etc, showing how insane Billy is by increasing this turn window.
I'd also highly suggest reading her replies under it, because she explains why she feels how she does / why this is a bad idea. While people have berated me all weekend on Twitter for saying this, I'm going to repeat - yes, a lot of these could have been "Crouch Tech'd", but an unintended mechanic should NOT be a solution for balancing a killer and even if it was, it does not change that you have 100% changed Billy's game play and skill expression. I know there is probably no chance of you guys ever fixing "Crouch Tech" for Billy/Blight/Demo, but just in case you ever do, I do not want it to be taken into consideration, so he is considered "BALANCED".
Also, I don't know if you're familiar with "DeadlyNaya" on Twitch/Twitter.
She is a survivor main that has spent years advocating for Billy buffs and he has always been her favorite killer to verse. She also has a stream team on Twitch called "Overheated" with literally nothing but skilled Billy mains. She also used to host a podcast on her stream with multiple Billys from different play styles, Base-kit, Competitive, Curve (Doubles Billy), etc, so they could discuss Billy and where he was / what he needed to bring him into 2024, etc. This was HER POST on Twitter earlier about the Billy changes. I don't know how to say this any other way, but when Naya no longer enjoys versing Billy, when all she does is fight for him, perhaps this change shouldn't have happened. PLEASE LISTEN TO YOUR COMMUNITY that just wants Billy to be strong, but balanced and skillful.
In closing, once again, these are the most important things that should happen.
- Revert the turn window change. It makes him feel unskillful, removes survivor agency in chase due to how early you can curve, and overall is not a good band-aid fix for the sensitivity changing in Overdrive / out of Overdrive
- Either revert the movement slow down after "miss" & delete a cool down add-on, or keep it how it is, but it does feel pretty bad. C/D add-ons should NOT apply to LoPro pallet break.
- Revert the new bonk animation, it looks horrible and feels terrible.
- Make his add-ons not be useless - the only GOOD Overdrive add-on is Off Brand Motor Oil. We don't need a billion add-ons around Overdrive, he needs variety now that we are no longer tied to add-ons. Replace them with older add-ons like, Leafy Mash, Big Buckle, Pig House Gloves, etc. Another suggestion mentioned was making "Cracked Primer Bulb" one health state, but permanent Overdrive.
- Continue to work on consistent sensitivity between Overdrive/Non Overdrive - again, if you don't want to make Overdrive an ACTIVATION like Main Event, perhaps it's time to consider, especially for our console gamers something like a "power sensitivity" slider, so they can adjust things like Saw Sens/Oni Power during Demon Dash.
- Please never make a base-kit change like this again without a PTB. I don't know if there are people on the dev team that main/actively play Billy, but if there are, they should have known how absolutely nuts it would be to increase his sensitivity window.
I really hope that I haven't wasted hours upon hours writing feedback and fighting for Billy, so this thread can disappear into the ether, because it's "no longer pinned", but I can't say I'm feeling confident anymore.
Again, thank you for your time, Slow Loris
4 -
I've seen a lot of talk about the Balance/ Unbalance of Billy since this update and although Im happy to see Billy in a more viable place, that already happened with overdrive. Increasing the window from 0.75s to 1s wasn't really needed and has results in some clips where I can only say, that should not be possible when watching (as a Billy main).
A lot of contention around bigger players stating you just need to learn counterplay but then I see what Billy can do now that isn't being enabled by overdrive but the larger curve window and it is very much eliminating pre-existing counter play, good positioning and how useful check spots are in a lot of locations. Along with the new curves available to Billy Ive also seen clips where it severely changes drop down curves to the point where you can launch yourself a decent distance and then curve giving you a projectile curve from hills ect which although is cool, I can not think for a second that anyone being objective things that is reasonably balanced (the survivor has made distance and gone round a tile which is fairly safe and rightly should be and still get downed). Survivor skill aside Billy can do some outrageously strong new movements and he might genuinely be over tuned and I expect the more experienced players to actually evaluate that more than jumping down the, "you're bad" route.
Personally I don't see overdrive itself as an issue, I think its a healthy addition to the game overall.
The way the turn rate has been implemented is definitely a big question mark, yes counterplay does still exist but given the new things Billy can do, that is going to be able to do (when people experiment even further and find out new options/ angles ect) could definitely be overpowered (and having counter play doesn't change it from being overpower if it is, it just means you're not always without options [please take time to remember this]).
I trust BHVR is going to keep an eye on Billy and hopefully make right decisions or at least recognise that there is an issue of concern that needs to be monitored for a period of time before making any decisions one way or the other (which effectively wasn't the case with this turn rate change, it didn't go to ptb and arguably wasn't needed.)
In summary, I don't know if he's definitely OP or whether an adjustment period is needed but the community have been very un-patient on both sides. Billy mains and Billy advocates opinions have just been thrown aside and often talked down to in a lot of cases which is very disheartening when they've been pushing for positive change for a long period of time to be then disregarded so thoroughly, these are absolutely people who's opinion you should be valuing in an open discussion without bias if you want to come to a reasonable understanding of where Billy actually stands.
My Personal opinion:
I don't like the sensitivity change but not because of balance. When playing Billy for the last year one feeling I always got was when you did a curve or a 180 it was like a snap/ a turn on a rollercoaster where you felt the force of the speed on turn and now that feeling is gone.
Balance aside, that feeling was incredibly iconic to me and when I got back from work and decided to boot up and that wasn't there, I hated it to the point when the game ended, I just turned it off. It wasn't even a bad game it just didn't feel like I was playing Billy and that's what I wanted when I booted up.
I've played him since ands its just gone, one of the things that made this killer feel so unique is just not there anymore. This wasn't an overdrive change, it was that initial turn rate change. One of the things being suggested is that it was a band aid fix for the the sensitivity change with overdrive.
If that is the case, then changing base saw back to 0.75s but increasing the overdrive to itself to the higher sense is what many people are suggesting and Im all for that as it sounds plausible to both fix the issue and keep the iconic feeling (with appropriate testing of course).
Add ons: Counterweight OP 😉
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