Bleeding Out needs to be adressed.

Survivors playing in an annoying manner isn't an excuse to let killers do the same. We didn't let killers keep no hook Moris all those years back just cause Survivors could escape through hatch with keys, idk why we should allow such common practices for poor sportsmanship just because both sides can do it. If you want to propose any changes for the issues you mentioned, do it. Don't just use issues the game has to justify keeping others.

FR I did not get the issue whatsoever, I loved it

Bleedouts for 4k: I'm not taking issue with a Killer doing this, I'm taking issue with the post-game screen not giving you post-game info when the game is over (for you). I'm also taking issue with the lack of a surrender feature, as giving up on hook and opening gates are surrender features.

That "unneeded" bleeding out is the same type of bleeding out that occurs when slugging for the 4k (without intel on the final Surv). Personally I would rate this occurring in my Survivor matches at about 1 in 10, and that doesn't include matches where I died and left before perks were revealed, so the number is likely higher than that.

Give post-game info in post-game, and give a surrender feature after 5-15 minutes for both sides to safely quit with their BP, and with a static 1m matchmaking block. That way people don't just surrender on sight of their most hated Killer for free, and there still is a reasonable penalty to prevent abuse. It could even be limited to 1/day with an extra prompt on quitting "do you want to use your free quit for the day, although if it were limited like that then I would remove the 1m matchmaking block and just use the normal escalating temp ban (skipping your freebie).

Until we have actual data, I wouldn't make any brash assumptions as to which annoying playstyle is more frequent, and I certainly wouldn't use it as evidence as to why another issue should be ignored.

To be brutally honest, this argument is coming across as less a good faith discussion and more "the devs should change the thing that annoys me more first" instead of discussing something substantiative related to the topic.

Yes, it'd obviously be great if neither of these issues existed in the first place, but they do. We can discuss how to change them, or we can argue about which side is more entitled to changes first based on our one sided experiences, and quite frankly I don't think that's a very hard choice for me.

Unbreakable countering bleeding out doesn't really solve the issue of bleeding out, the same way Blood Warden doesn't solve teabagging at exit gates.

while bleeding out is very annoying and time wasting, slugging can be something the killer needs to do in certain situations and giving the survivors complete control over that situation is wrong.

So some kind of conditional mechanic against unnecessary slugging would be nice (eg two slugged survivors can heal eachother up if they are already fully healing in dying state, or bleed out button but only after 2 minutes which is more reasonable than dying after 4 whole minutes and gives time for killer to use the slug for strategic purposes and have the chance to still hook and not be screwed out of a sacrifice)

HHow about this easy solution?

If all remaining survivors are somehow incapacitated without means to get up, they instantly get entity sacrificed.

(Escaped, dead, sacrificed, downed, hookstate2)

Its not someone eleses responsibility to fix what you do, nor can they be held responsible for your actions ect. - suggesting that is just toxic. - so please stop pushing that on to the killer, this is purely on the survivors.

Bleedouts take longer, yea sure. But they are really rare, and if the survivors stand at the exit gate to tbag anyway for 80% of the games, who cares?

Team A drags time from Team B (and have been doing that for a really long time). Now Team B is dragging tme from team A as a consequence of that. And now Team A dont think its fun anymore? - im not sure if i should laugh or cry.

Also i have had killer games where my only option was to bleed survivors, because they abused game mechanics to make them unhookable.

That is not considered hostage taking, so quit the over-dramatizations.

Its kind of tireing that a lot of survivor mains think its ok, and even trying to downplay or even push the responsibility (as you do now) for the exit gate camping to the killer, and over-dramatizatize the bleedouts.

As i already said, If this is such a big problem, then there is perks to counter it, and if you dont want to "waste" a perk slot for that, then the problem isnt really that big that you make it sound.

And for the record, no im not a killer main anymore - check my post history if you think i am.

I'm not saying that it is the Killer's responsibility, I'm saying the Killer's max (normal case) victimization is 2 minutes, or shorter if they take the effort. Survivor is 4 minutes, and they NEED to take the effort to prevent it from taking longer (if the Killer shoulder Juggles them during the search). The difference is >2 vs <4. (Although if you want to expand to include Juggling and intentional Plot Twist delays, then it is >4 vs ~28).

I am saying they aren't as rare as claimed, anecdotally my Surv matches have it happen 1/10 (full on bleedouts, or slug with 0 knowledge for the 4k), if not more. Everyone's experience is different though.

Team A attacks Team B : This is the bad sort of tribalism we need to move away from. Team A attacks Team B, but then next match Team B takes it out on Team C, so then Team C takes it out on Team D, and continues the chain. If it were in a custom match with friends, and you know you are facing the exact same people every time, then I have no problem with this. The misplaced guilt is what I take issue with. I am for 'matching energy', but taking things out on a different team is just being a jerk, whether I bleedout a team after I faced a clock SWF or bully a baby Trapper after something.

Only had the option to bleedout: This happens to me in less than 100 games, so anecdotally I'm not sure about this. Sabo plays are really bad right now as I've once sabo'd 3 hooks (the Killer was heading in the direction of) and still failed to prevent a hook/force a drop, although it was RPD to be fair. In a normal match I pick them up and if they wiggle, I drop, kinda point at the nearest broken hook, and they either understand and would rather die sooner, or choose to die in the corner from spite. Dieing in the corner from spite is NOT what people are complaining about, although to be fair, some main brained individuals think slugging for 3s is unacceptably long, just as other main brained individuals think the crouch button should be unbound.

It is hostage taking in spirit, yes. Are they allowed to continue playing the game? No (or if they are waiting in the post-game lobby, no if they want the info they should be afforded when the match is over for them). Are they kept in for an indefinite period of time? Yes. Will it end? Technically anywhere from 4m to as high as ~28 minutes if they get shoulder juggled and the Surv fights back to die as soon as possible (longer if they run after getting unshouldered or the Killer waits to down them). Just as technically all matches end at 1hr. Does it reach the standards to report for a ban? No. That's why it is breaking the rule in spirit, but not the letter.

I never said it was the Killer's responsibility to end the match for t-bag at gates, I said they have the agency to shorten the timer. Very different message. The Survivor doesn't have agency to shorten the timer below 4 minutes, the Killer can wait 2 mins or shorten it. (To be fair if you were saying I was downplaying that spot, then fair, but I wasn't shifting responsibility.) That all falls apart even further when I suggested a surrender feature for anyone to fully quit with their BP though.

Perks shouldn't be fixes for bad game design. I shouldn't be forced to run No Mither (the only infinite self-pickup perk that the Killer can't cancel [other than the circumstantial Soul Guard]) because I want to avoid bleedouts, or Plot Twist if I want to tray and evade and bleedout myself to prevent the Killer from Juggling.

I don't care what side you play, as long as we can get loadouts shown when you die, and a surrender feature implemented (for both sides and to keep BP/not accrue a DC stack for bans).

I'd say this is moreso a flaw of the proposed system than it is the concept. Perhaps extending the time it takes to pick up could've been increased depending on how close a survivor is to to a hook, meaning that survs can't Sabo a hook and comp corner for an easy escape.

That isn't really an issue with finisher Mori either, but the devs got rid of it anyway so ig there's precedent for that line of thinking.

I thought it was scrapped because Killers started to refuse to hook and were speedrunning 4 downs. That's at least what happened in my Survivor games during that PTB. I wanted the basekit 45s UB (or even better 60s UB, with 30s to 95%, and 30s more to self-pickup), but I didn't want the auto-Mori as it didn't even give me a choice (and was going to delete Devour Hope). BHVR was tying the 2 separate ideas together for whatever bizarre reason.

I think Moris should be basekit if you reach 8 hooks no kills, that way Killers can show their skill by the number of Mori vs normal kills. " A:'I got 2 Mori Kills and 1 hook kill last match', B:'Oh yeah, I got 3 Mori kills!' A:'Awesome!' C:'I got a 4k last match!' A:'Wait how many Moris?' C:'Uh, none' B:'Oh, uh you do you man' ".

I don't think you understood my post because my whole point was that the proposed system made it far too easy for survivors to weaponize anti-slug with its proposed version. You just restated a point we agree on.

The change I proposed would mean only survivors slugged near a hook, ie in places killers *could* hook them, would get the anti-slug. This in theory should solve your issue of survivor's knowingly going down in places they can't get hooked so they get up for free, and therefore letting the killer control when the mechanic activates.

1. There are killer perks that disable bloodlust, anti-slug could be removed from certain perks if they're often used for poor playing. Slug crawling under a pallet could also disable or slow the recovery timer to prevent this, a restriction I'd even extend to if other survivors around the slug, like Anti-camp.
2. It can simply not activate at all during the slug if the survivor crawls in range of hook or if a broken/saboed hook regens, as it's not like the killer had those options available to them when they had to make that decision. This would also stop 3. from occuring.

It took you five minutes to think of those strats and it took me thirty seconds to think of those solutions, both of which are already restrictions other mechanics have that limit killer playstyles.

Yes, survivors will try and weaponize anything you give them, that doesn't mean they'll always be successful.

Disable the recovery entirely under pallet for the first bit. A blanket change that would seemingly solve most of these proposed strategies is not letting the mechanic activate if it doesn't initially proc on down. There should not be an interaction wherein the survivor is able to proc anti-slug in a situation where a killer cannot hook, and if the survivors wiggle meter gets to a certain point, it could also disable anti-slug as clearly something went weird if the killer had to drop after presumably carrying the survivor for a while.

I do agree the parameters would need to be fine tuned, as it shouldn't proc through floors unless there's an entrance nearby, which is rather hard to auto detect in the DBD engine I imagine. As for slugging being necessary, again remember that without perks it would take 45 seconds before the survivor gets up (a timeframe that could be changed depending on feedback) and the timer slows/disables if there are other survivors in the area. A killer can absolutely go kick a gen, try out a chase, or whatever they need and then still come back for the hook without a survivor picking themself up in that timeframe.

This still feels like rather simple restrictions all things considered.

1.Yes, - but no. Bleeding takes 4 minutes, exit gate camping takes 2, but exit gate camping is much more common. When i was a killer main, it was more a rule that if survivors won they would camp the exit gate, than not. in 80-90% of the games at least 1 person stood and dragged time, and tbagged the killer. - i still play a little killer and this is still the case. On the other hand, when i dont even remember the last time i was bled out by a killer when play survivor (and i do play about 85% survivor now). Lets make an example here, lets say that in 2 of 10 games all survivors leave the game with out dragging time (and i even think this is an unrealistic high number) thats 16 minutes the survivors waste of killer time. And again, ill give you an unrealistic high number that 2 our of 10 killers slug (as i said, i dont remember last time i was slugged just for the sake of slugging) thats 8 minuts wasted for the survivors.

2. So does hooking, would you prefer that survivors were invulnerable? Also if you bring the right perks, this can give survivors the edge to win the game, depending on the circumstances.

3. I dont remember last time i saw this tbh. i dont deny it is happening, but its rare (see 1 for a more in depth explanation)

4. why cant you afk? you can just tab out and watch youtube. - This is not just bleeding out, you are moving the subject into greefing. We (my swf and me) had a survivor doing something like that, first he worked with the killer, he used bond to find us, then he repetedtly jumped in and out of lockers to give away our location, then when i was hooked he repeatedtly grabbed me on the hook, and let go again, denying and hook progress or suicide, while leaving me on the hook, the killer stood next to him and watched it all. Would the argument be that hooks, lockers and Bond should be removed too??

How often would you say you experience these matches where the entire team is 4 man slugged and y’all are left to bleed out with him refusing to hook? I’m assuming that’s the scenario you’re talking about anyway, not just slugged while he’s after other people.

I'm not saying that it is the Killer's responsibility, I'm saying the Killer's max (normal case) victimization is 2 minutes, or shorter if they take the effort. Survivor is 4 minutes, and they NEED to take the effort to prevent it from taking longer (if the Killer shoulder Juggles them during the search). The difference is >2 vs <4. (Although if you want to expand to include Juggling and intentional Plot Twist delays, then it is >4 vs ~28).

I am saying they aren't as rare as claimed, anecdotally my Surv matches have it happen 1/10 (full on bleedouts, or slug with 0 knowledge for the 4k), if not more. Everyone's experience is different though.

Im not sure i understand this exactly, but the exit gate time dragging surely exeeds the bleedouts, i cant remember the last time i was bled for the sake of letting me bleed, but the last time someone dragged time at the exit gates, im pretty sure that was the last time i lost a killer game, so overall the avarage killer looses more time on this than the avarage survivor does.. I have played a lot killer in the past, still do a little, but mostly survivor now. - so i have seen both sides.

Team A attacks Team B : This is the bad sort of tribalism we need to move away from. Team A attacks Team B, but then next match Team B takes it out on Team C, so then Team C takes it out on Team D, and continues the chain. If it were in a custom match with friends, and you know you are facing the exact same people every time, then I have no problem with this. The misplaced guilt is what I take issue with. I am for 'matching energy', but taking things out on a different team is just being a jerk, whether I bleedout a team after I faced a clock SWF or bully a baby Trapper after something.

I hear you, but i dont think its as simple as that. Lets say a kid is getting bombarded with rocks every day when he walks home from school. At some point that kid will start throwing rocks back, and he will probaby also throw the first rock and even hit someone who never threw a rock at him.

People adapt to the situations they are in, this goes for killers aswell, i think some of them had enough and are paying back, and there are about 85% chance they are slugging someone who dragged time for them or some other killer. - that is pretty good odds.

Only had the option to bleedout: This happens to me in less than 100 games, so anecdotally I'm not sure about this. Sabo plays are really bad right now as I've once sabo'd 3 hooks (the Killer was heading in the direction of) and still failed to prevent a hook/force a drop, although it was RPD to be fair. In a normal match I pick them up and if they wiggle, I drop, kinda point at the nearest broken hook, and they either understand and would rather die sooner, or choose to die in the corner from spite. Dieing in the corner from spite is NOT what people are complaining about, although to be fair, some main brained individuals think slugging for 3s is unacceptably long, just as other main brained individuals think the crouch button should be unbound.

If it were just for the sabos, i have had games where people swfs put on Crotus Prenn Asylum, everyone had Boil Over and when wounded they ran to a "safe" spot in the main building close to the hole in the floor, There is no chance to get them to a hook from there if they have boil over, and they just stopped the chase there, waited for me to down them or give up and go away. - If i picked them up they would get free and run straight back. I turned to the next survivor and the exact same happened. Same thing with the Springwood map, if the killer basement is not in the basement of the main building, then that basement is completley safe as long as survivors have boil over - the killer cant get you to a hook, no matter what. Eyrie of Crows do also have a location in the tower where this is true. - the only counter is to bleed people to death.

It is hostage taking in spirit, yes. Are they allowed to continue playing the game? No (or if they are waiting in the post-game lobby, no if they want the info they should be afforded when the match is over for them). Are they kept in for an indefinite period of time? Yes. Will it end? Technically anywhere from 4m to as high as ~28 minutes if they get shoulder juggled and the Surv fights back to die as soon as possible (longer if they run after getting unshouldered or the Killer waits to down them). Just as technically all matches end at 1hr. Does it reach the standards to report for a ban? No. That's why it is breaking the rule in spirit, but not the letter.

The game will end efter 4 minutes, so its not hostage taking - end of story.

When i played killer I have had survivors holding me in a game for more than 25 minutes many times, refusing to do gens, just locker switching all the time, or walking in circles at the edges of the swamp map, or waling in circles in the basement. - Thats closer to taking the game hostage, as the game have no function to detect that survivors are not progressing on the objective, and the killer cant just go and open the gate. - if the killer goes AFK is situations like that, they will be DCed and get a penalty. Bleeding takes 4 minutes and you are on, not enough time to get DCed so you can tab out and watch youtube.

I never said it was the Killer's responsibility to end the match for t-bag at gates, I said they have the agency to shorten the timer. Very different message. The Survivor doesn't have agency to shorten the timer below 4 minutes, the Killer can wait 2 mins or shorten it. (To be fair if you were saying I was downplaying that spot, then fair, but I wasn't shifting responsibility.) That all falls apart even further when I suggested a surrender feature for anyone to fully quit with their BP though.

I ment no offence, but saying that the killer can just go and push them out - is to put the responsibility on the killer, for the actions of the survivors. And im against the surrender option, it will be abused to circumvent the DC penalty.

Perks shouldn't be fixes for bad game design. I shouldn't be forced to run No Mither (the only infinite self-pickup perk that the Killer can't cancel [other than the circumstantial Soul Guard]) because I want to avoid bleedouts, or Plot Twist if I want to tray and evade and bleedout myself to prevent the Killer from Juggling.

A lot of killers feel forced to run 2 or more gen slowdowns to have a chance (depending on the killer they play). No Mither are probably the worst of the counter perks you can choose, that being said - you should run what you need to survive, what good is 3 gen rush perks if you die? If you need those perks to survive, sure you should run them.

They’re not gate keeping Feedback. They also made a suggestion. There’s nothing wrong with that and you shouldn’t be calling out people who do so. A little hypocritical.

As for the topic, this has been talked about time and time again.

I think the best suggestion would be if all survivors are slugged on the ground for more than two minutes a button will appear that you can click forfeit so you can move onto the next lobby.