Bleeding Out needs to be adressed.

Survivors playing in an annoying manner isn't an excuse to let killers do the same. We didn't let killers keep no hook Moris all those years back just cause Survivors could escape through hatch with keys, idk why we should allow such common practices for poor sportsmanship just because both sides can do it. If you want to propose any changes for the issues you mentioned, do it. Don't just use issues the game has to justify keeping others.

I don't think it is comparable in remotely the same degree. First off, Bleeding Out takes 4 minutes, and if you open the gate yourself as Killer it takes 2 minutes max (or if you want to annoy yourself you can make it take double time, but that is self-imposed). Hypothetically you could run into someone who purposely brought Plot Twist+No Mither+Tenacity to troll by hiding in endgame, but then you had a No Mither enemy during the entire match, so I think it evens out.

Secondly, Bleedouts have no (meaningful) agency. A Killer can force people out for t-bagging at gates, or even get a hook or Kill out of it. A slugged Survivor can't do anything other than prep a 95 for a pickup, or crawl under a pallet. If the Killer is purposely bleeding people out though, there is nothing they can do until they add a surrender feature like opening the gate for Killer.

Third, too many Killers play like a $5 subway card is on the line, slugging for the 4k, often when they have 0 idea or way of finding out where the remaining Surv is. For anyone wanting to see the Killer's perks/Add-ons/Offering/their friend exit the match (whether they played together in that match or not), they also have to wait through this, even if they died first. This is something that was implemented to prevent SWFs from snitching perks, but then it has 0 reason to exist in soloq, and I would even argue if a Killer can't win a 3v1 with snitched perks they don't have enough skill to win regardless (so it wouldn't affect the outcome). So a Killer can hold a up to a maximum normal 4 people hostage in spirit (Dead Survs A/B who want to see the perks, Slugged Surv C, and Hiding Surv D).

Finally even if its rare, its the prolonged suffering that makes it so annoying to deal with and forces complains to right this wrong. If a Sweaty Clock SWF rushes a win, they leave the match in ~3 minutes. The Killer can still engage that entire time. The slugged Surv (and waiting lobby Survs [for their casual SWF teammates or perks to be revealed]) has the minimum 4 minute timer, but the Killer could pick up and drop them in a hatch fight and force them to run around or AFK for even longer.

So in summary

1. Surrender exists for Killer and not Survivor
2. Bleedouts deny the ability to do anything (meaningful)
3. The frequency of slug for 4k is far too high, and may hold 2-4 Players hostage (in spirit) at any time.
4. The 4 minutes can be artificially extended by picking up and dropping Survs, so you can't simply AFK if the Killer does this to you. (While the Killer can AFK in endgame collapse.)

So bleeding out is no worse?

Well, if that's what you want, sure thing. Something like "you're 1 minute on the ground, press X to die" could save a bit of time.

All you have to do is make it ban worthy to bleed people out and it will stop in a hurry. It really isn't that hard to determine if someone is doing it for the sake of griefing other players. If all four players are being bled out at different points on the map then it's 100% the killer being toxic. In the case of an individual player you can sometimes tell as well. If someone submits a four minute video of themself being bled out with a clearly visible hook nearby then why is that not bannable? Provided the video also shows them going down. Is the killer humping them on the ground while they bleed out not proof enough?

I understand you're sideways advocating for yet another powerful basekit perk, but a faster bleed out option after being on the ground for a period of time is a far less abusable option.

Wasn't the old finisher mori system scrapped because it actually caused slugging to become meta? People realized it was way easier to win if you just slugged everyone (because of the instant sacrifice) vs playing normally and hooking everyone.

As for an anti-slug mechanic, I would absolutely be down for the ability to speed up the bleed out process. Scott Jund had a decent idea to give survivors tenacity crawl speeds at the cost of doubling the bleed out rate. Heck even if its like the 4% unhook but we can attempt to pick ourselves up.

As someone who had 3 matches this week where it was a 4 man bleed out because that's how the killers came into the match wanting to play, I will take anything that just lets me go next.

The old finisher Mori system was scrapped, because a bunch of survivors brought stuff like Flip flop, breakdown (or power struggle), unbreakable, tenacity… and were purposely placing themselves in situations where they couldn’t be hooked.

The main point is that when survivors got anti-slugging, they purposely weaponized it.

I'm not saying that it is the Killer's responsibility, I'm saying the Killer's max (normal case) victimization is 2 minutes, or shorter if they take the effort. Survivor is 4 minutes, and they NEED to take the effort to prevent it from taking longer (if the Killer shoulder Juggles them during the search). The difference is >2 vs <4. (Although if you want to expand to include Juggling and intentional Plot Twist delays, then it is >4 vs ~28).

I am saying they aren't as rare as claimed, anecdotally my Surv matches have it happen 1/10 (full on bleedouts, or slug with 0 knowledge for the 4k), if not more. Everyone's experience is different though.

Team A attacks Team B : This is the bad sort of tribalism we need to move away from. Team A attacks Team B, but then next match Team B takes it out on Team C, so then Team C takes it out on Team D, and continues the chain. If it were in a custom match with friends, and you know you are facing the exact same people every time, then I have no problem with this. The misplaced guilt is what I take issue with. I am for 'matching energy', but taking things out on a different team is just being a jerk, whether I bleedout a team after I faced a clock SWF or bully a baby Trapper after something.

Only had the option to bleedout: This happens to me in less than 100 games, so anecdotally I'm not sure about this. Sabo plays are really bad right now as I've once sabo'd 3 hooks (the Killer was heading in the direction of) and still failed to prevent a hook/force a drop, although it was RPD to be fair. In a normal match I pick them up and if they wiggle, I drop, kinda point at the nearest broken hook, and they either understand and would rather die sooner, or choose to die in the corner from spite. Dieing in the corner from spite is NOT what people are complaining about, although to be fair, some main brained individuals think slugging for 3s is unacceptably long, just as other main brained individuals think the crouch button should be unbound.

It is hostage taking in spirit, yes. Are they allowed to continue playing the game? No (or if they are waiting in the post-game lobby, no if they want the info they should be afforded when the match is over for them). Are they kept in for an indefinite period of time? Yes. Will it end? Technically anywhere from 4m to as high as ~28 minutes if they get shoulder juggled and the Surv fights back to die as soon as possible (longer if they run after getting unshouldered or the Killer waits to down them). Just as technically all matches end at 1hr. Does it reach the standards to report for a ban? No. That's why it is breaking the rule in spirit, but not the letter.

I never said it was the Killer's responsibility to end the match for t-bag at gates, I said they have the agency to shorten the timer. Very different message. The Survivor doesn't have agency to shorten the timer below 4 minutes, the Killer can wait 2 mins or shorten it. (To be fair if you were saying I was downplaying that spot, then fair, but I wasn't shifting responsibility.) That all falls apart even further when I suggested a surrender feature for anyone to fully quit with their BP though.

Perks shouldn't be fixes for bad game design. I shouldn't be forced to run No Mither (the only infinite self-pickup perk that the Killer can't cancel [other than the circumstantial Soul Guard]) because I want to avoid bleedouts, or Plot Twist if I want to tray and evade and bleedout myself to prevent the Killer from Juggling.

I don't care what side you play, as long as we can get loadouts shown when you die, and a surrender feature implemented (for both sides and to keep BP/not accrue a DC stack for bans).

I'd say this is moreso a flaw of the proposed system than it is the concept. Perhaps extending the time it takes to pick up could've been increased depending on how close a survivor is to to a hook, meaning that survs can't Sabo a hook and comp corner for an easy escape.

That isn't really an issue with finisher Mori either, but the devs got rid of it anyway so ig there's precedent for that line of thinking.

I thought it was scrapped because Killers started to refuse to hook and were speedrunning 4 downs. That's at least what happened in my Survivor games during that PTB. I wanted the basekit 45s UB (or even better 60s UB, with 30s to 95%, and 30s more to self-pickup), but I didn't want the auto-Mori as it didn't even give me a choice (and was going to delete Devour Hope). BHVR was tying the 2 separate ideas together for whatever bizarre reason.

I think Moris should be basekit if you reach 8 hooks no kills, that way Killers can show their skill by the number of Mori vs normal kills. " A:'I got 2 Mori Kills and 1 hook kill last match', B:'Oh yeah, I got 3 Mori kills!' A:'Awesome!' C:'I got a 4k last match!' A:'Wait how many Moris?' C:'Uh, none' B:'Oh, uh you do you man' ".

I don't think you understood my post because my whole point was that the proposed system made it far too easy for survivors to weaponize anti-slug with its proposed version. You just restated a point we agree on.

The change I proposed would mean only survivors slugged near a hook, ie in places killers *could* hook them, would get the anti-slug. This in theory should solve your issue of survivor's knowingly going down in places they can't get hooked so they get up for free, and therefore letting the killer control when the mechanic activates.

1. There are killer perks that disable bloodlust, anti-slug could be removed from certain perks if they're often used for poor playing. Slug crawling under a pallet could also disable or slow the recovery timer to prevent this, a restriction I'd even extend to if other survivors around the slug, like Anti-camp.
2. It can simply not activate at all during the slug if the survivor crawls in range of hook or if a broken/saboed hook regens, as it's not like the killer had those options available to them when they had to make that decision. This would also stop 3. from occuring.

It took you five minutes to think of those strats and it took me thirty seconds to think of those solutions, both of which are already restrictions other mechanics have that limit killer playstyles.

Yes, survivors will try and weaponize anything you give them, that doesn't mean they'll always be successful.

Disable the recovery entirely under pallet for the first bit. A blanket change that would seemingly solve most of these proposed strategies is not letting the mechanic activate if it doesn't initially proc on down. There should not be an interaction wherein the survivor is able to proc anti-slug in a situation where a killer cannot hook, and if the survivors wiggle meter gets to a certain point, it could also disable anti-slug as clearly something went weird if the killer had to drop after presumably carrying the survivor for a while.

I do agree the parameters would need to be fine tuned, as it shouldn't proc through floors unless there's an entrance nearby, which is rather hard to auto detect in the DBD engine I imagine. As for slugging being necessary, again remember that without perks it would take 45 seconds before the survivor gets up (a timeframe that could be changed depending on feedback) and the timer slows/disables if there are other survivors in the area. A killer can absolutely go kick a gen, try out a chase, or whatever they need and then still come back for the hook without a survivor picking themself up in that timeframe.

This still feels like rather simple restrictions all things considered.

How often would you say you experience these matches where the entire team is 4 man slugged and y’all are left to bleed out with him refusing to hook? I’m assuming that’s the scenario you’re talking about anyway, not just slugged while he’s after other people.

A killer has to pick someone up for fifteen seconds and actively let them deactivate anti-camp by reaching the wiggle threshold, and you really don't see how that's a far worse way to slug than current version? "A killer can just waste half a minute to get what they used to have for free." This both wastes a ton of a killer's time (which is literally countering what makes slugging useful), AND provides a crystal clear tell the killer is trying to slug.

As for a killer knowing if it's alright to pick up, if anti-slug is in effect they presumably had the chance to hook in the first place, and if they are slugging while another survivor is around (maybe they caught a flashy save), then anti-slug is either slowed drastically until the killer can return for the hook, or it doesn't proc at all.

Yes, if it deactivated on pallet there'd be instances where a killer could knowingly slug, I feel like this is such a clear minority of cases that although annoying, doesn't stop the majority of instances coming out fine, especially since that survivor is still under a pallet, an advantageous position.

You complained about facing bully squads in the PTB, which really makes me feel like you really aren't even trying to follow my viewpoint since I've been saying the PTB test was a flawed design since our first interaction, it's why literally all of my comments are about proposed changes to make the system more bearable and less abusable.

Hook distances, though an issue, are already centered around multiple other mechanics, be it killer perks or anti-camp. I do not believe that it's fine in all other incarnations and somehow blows up the moment it touches the concept of anti-slug.

I've been playing this game since launch mate, I was there too.

I refuse to follow your viewpoint, because you refuse to understand just how badly survivors try to weaponize things.

The PTB test was only flawed because it allowed the anti-slug to be weaponized, and none of your solutions addressed that problem. It doesn’t matter if your ideas make anti-slug less weapon-usable because survivors will still weaponize it.

Killers should not be forced to pick up survivors, and forced to attempt carrying them to hooks, when there are many scenarios where those actions are too risky to attempt. You can’t just say “the killer COULD have picked up the survivor”, when a survivor purposely gets knocked down in an open corn field, and teammates are nearby with flashlights and toolboxes.

If a killer slugs a survivor because a teammate is running nearby with a flashlight, then the killer should be allowed to chase that survivor without getting punished. But you’re suggestion is that the killer should be punished if they don’t pick up the slugged survivor, because if the killer chases the flashlight user, then the slugged survivor might be alone near a hook, and therefore the anti-slug mechanic should happen.

The proposed mechanic would disable if there are survivors around the slug, you are proposing scenario's that don't even circumvent the restrictions I proposed and have been referring to for three comments. You either fail to understand what I'm proposing or are purposely ignoring any proposed solutions in favor of pretending I'm pitching the same system as in the PTB. Hell, if you want even more solutions to your issue, give it a seven second grace period like anti-camp for killers to maybe kick a gen or challenge a flashy before their timer even starts/pauses.

If survivors can and will weaponize literally everything, I wanna see the op small game build, since clearly anything and everything can be abused regardless of the restrictions or balance of it, right? How about Anti-camp? It's been in the game for a few months and I haven't seen nearly enough salt posts for a mechanic that can give a survivor a free unhook. The restrictions put in place limited it's useability such that not only do killers decide if it activates, but that they also can play around any survivors attempt to turn the mechanic in their favor.

This line of thinking is silly. Survivors aren't super spies about to turn pencils into murder weapons, they're gamers looking for ways to get ahead in a match. If the devs put the proper limitations in place, like they already have for other mechanics designed to counter killer playstyles, they should be able to devise a mechanic that counters a killer's ability to effectively slug multiple survivors for minutes at a time instead of disrupting regular gameplay. They've done it before.

1: I don't think exit gate camping happens more often (at least in my games), because the Killer wins the vast majority of the time (regardless of which side I'm playing). I'm only seeing it as Killer in ~20% of my losses (so ~5-10% of total matches) and it usually is only one person so it doesn't involve any longer than 10s (unlike the theoretical Gate A push, B push, A push, B push). At the same time the minimum rate for my Surv matches is 1/10 (and that isn't including matches where I die early, so it could be higher). Anecdotal is anecdotal to be fair, and both of our experiences are different.

2: Hooks still give Survivors agency to end the match, Bleedouts don't. You can Kobe and either live, or accelerate your death. Then on 2nd stage you can simply not attempt skillchecks to die. Agency exists to end (your part in) the match.

3. Back to 1 for anecdotal, but my point was as long as the perks/add-ons aren't revealed when you die, or you are waiting for a friend to exit the match, it can hold additional people waiting to play beyond those strictly still 'playing' in the match. The bare minimum common case is 2 victims (slug for 4k), where gate bags has 1 victim.

4. You can't AFK if the Killer picks you up and perma-shoulders you, you have to wiggle to ensure you die. If you wiggle you can force the bleedout to occur during the weapon wipe before they pick you up. Otherwise you risk ~50m hostage (for the lobby to time out), or ~28m when they intentionally do that over and over (only accruing bleedout time during the weapon wipe). Griefing is already against the game rules and bannable, so you can record and report. Shoulder juggling to bleed someone out over ~28m is technically legal, as it will end eventually. It clearly breaks the rules in spirit, but we are stuck with the letter of the law.

Section 1: Back to previous reply section 1, anecdotal for each.

Section 2: I didn't want to say it in the previous reply/part 1 because it didn't seem relevant, but the kid/rock analogy fits this perfectly. The vast majority of exit gate bags is in response to something the Killer did, such as camping/tunneling/picking a sweatlord Killer like Nurse/etc. Since I am a 'D-tier main', who doesn't intentionally tunnel or camp, I nearly never see them as Killer. I only included the 20% of times I saw a teammate to bag a Killer in soloq for the above reply, and that was only when we could even win a soloq match.

Section 3: I understand this can happen, but again it is few and far between, with anecdotal experience varying. Would you say it happens as often as 1/100 matches where people intentionally map offer into Boil Over? Even then, my point here was the people doing this can't expect anything other than bleeding out, and don't have a justification to complain about a bleedout death. They could still use a surrender feature I would want if they realize the Killer isn't missing a brain.

Section 4: Again, the Survivor 'hostage' issue is bannable. Record and report. (Specifically if a Survivor refuses to touch a gen once per 10 minutes is the technical line in the sand.) The Killer 'hostage' issue isn't bannable (currently). I would just want a surrender feature for Killer or Survivor to take their earned BP and go home to prevent these scenarios for both sides.

Section 5: Saying 'the timer is 2 minutes, AND you can shorten it if you want' is NOT putting responsibility on the Killer to end it in 2 minutes. You can say it is putting responsibility on the Killer to have it take shorter than 2 minutes, but the issue being compared here for Killer is 2 min without input, less with input. Agency exists to make that decision. For Survivor it is 4 min without input, but you need to monitor to make sure they aren't carrying you, so it isn't a true AFK like Killer's. Since you need to remain at the Keyboard, there isn't agency for Survivor, just required actions. Also a surrender feature should only be available when the game is either over, or can be considered over. The Survivors can make that decision after a death if they want to stay or play. Why would you want to force people to play a 3v1 at 5 gens? That isn't bypassing the DC timer, that's bypassing wasting their lives. Similarly if someone was AFK long enough to reach 3 crows, it clearly wasn't a real or fair match, as it effectively was the same thing as a 3v1 at 5 gens, or an intentional bleedout. The Killer can make that decision at any point in the game if they can win or not, but I would add a 5-10 minute minimum game time for Killer.

Section 6: (Loose quote) "A lot of Killers 'feel' like they need multiple gen slowdown." I think this is more that people don't realize the value of lethality and intel, and are too scared to expand their horizons. Chasing a Survivor denies gen seconds, but the rest of the team is able to pump gens. That means delaying a chase to apply slowdown is silver plattering gen time to 3 people equal to the extended chase time. A gen kick takes 1.8s (plus however long it takes to move into close enough position to magnet on). That gives the Survivor 7.2 extra meters of distance. If a normal M1 Killer catches up at 0.6m/second, they give the Survivors 12 extra realtime seconds. If 3 Survs are on gens, and this is to chase the 4th after the kick, the Killer gives the Survivor team 36 free gen seconds. This means most players are hurting their chances of winning by using gen kick perks ineffectively. You can also reverse this equation to see how much time you steal from the Survivors by shortening chase through bypassing the 'find the Survivor' time with Intel, as well as Lethality methods of shortening chase.

Sorry, I disagree though. It didn’t come off rude at all. My opinion though. 🤷🏼‍♂️