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How do people feel about Flashbangs working when facing a wall?
I see that a popular discussion at the moment is blinding the killer and the perks and items that are associated with it. That being said as background player is becoming more and more popular are people okay with this being a thing, or is this the next buckle up and for the people. Curious what the community currently thinks
Comments
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It's worse than buckle up and for the people, that combo is extremely limited when compared to this thing
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I don't even get why this is a discussion. Blinding a killer for free should not be a thing in this game. Getting blinded when you are facing a wall is one of the most frustrating feelings you can have in this game as of late.
Background Player is one of the major culprits though. It gives survivors too much safety, and stops survivors getting baited, since the perk only triggers once the killer is locked into the animation. It is banned in most tournament rules because of how strong it is.
I just hope they don't nerf flashbang. It deserves to get bug fixed, but not to be nerfed just because Background player is too strong.23 -
It is carried by BGP. The sound bug doesn't help too but sound is always broken in some way in this game.
I've also had a few occasions where I was looking up when flashbang was dropped and still got blinded, not sure what the counter is if looking up doesn't help too.
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Its bad and shouldnt be a thing. For some reason flashbangs also work for locker saves(while flashlights dont) and dont make a sound when they are dropped behind a wall or some object.
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With how forgiving flashlight angles are and the fact you can still be blinded by flashbangs while your face is planted in the wall, there is literally no counter for killers other than running Lightborn and having to constantly run a perk to counter broken mechanics or perks like BGP feels kinda unfair.
I never used to dodge flashlight lobbies as they tend to waste a lot of time trying to get saves and at one time it was preferable to seeing a lobby of toolboxes or medkits. But with BGP and low skill easy timing of flashlight blinds, it feels like I am preventing a lot of misery by either dodging or running LB.
I had a match the other day where I pretty much had to leave everyone slugged until bleed out as I just could not pick anyone up due to BGP/flashbangs/flashlights
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"and having to constantly run a perk to counter broken mechanics or perks like BGP feels kinda unfair."
Funny, now it is unfair. Back then it was common practice to tell Survivors to "just run Perk X" if there were any complaints.
@Topic:
I almost never get blinded, neither by Flashbangs nor by Flashlights. With and without Background Player. The past two weeks it happened once and yes, I dont think it should have happened. But I highly doubt it happens that often to those people who complain about it, because I doubt that I am the exception of the rule.
When playing Survivor I also see a good amount of people just failing their attempts with Background Player or Flashbangs.But the forum once again acts like they get robbed of 10 Hooks each game due to Background Player and/or Flashlights/Flashbangs.
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Back then it was common practice to tell Survivors to "just run Perk X" if there were any complaints.
And look where we are now. With base kit BT, a HUD to improve solo coordination and an AFC. All of which cover issues that were otherwise countered by perks.
If an issue becomes so bad, that 1 single perk becomes a necessity, then it warrants base kit changes. With Lightborn, that is not an option though, as it would completely remove the blind mechanic.
But I highly doubt it happens that often to those people who complain about it, because I doubt that I am the exception of the rule.
For Background Player it's not about how often it actually happens. It's the threat of how often it can happen and the counterplay (or in some cases the lack of which). This is similar to a Starstruck Nurse on Midwich. Was that very common? I'll say no. Was it problematic still? Definitely yes. With Background Player it's almost the same. Your 3 options to counter a flashbang are:
- Stare at a wall.
- Lightborn.
- Slugging.
The first of which being the most desirable for survivors and killers alike. However, there is currently a glitch to completely remove that form of counterplay and a survivor can make this impossible by not going down right next to a wall. So there are only 2 ways left to counter BGP + flashbangs or BGP. One of which is a perk that can still be circumvented, if the survivor goes down under a pallet.
So only the 3rd option remains as a reliable way to counter BGP + flashbangs. And it's the option that both sides probably enjoy the least. Great. I consider hardcore slugging an overlooked issue anyway but now we even have a survivor perk that encourages it on top of the already existing killer perk Knock Out (which is a problem on its own).
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it’s perfectly fine and works as intended, Flashbang is able to blind while a killer is against a wall because Flashbang gets thrown slightly in front of the survivor because of this when next to a wall it can snug just right in position to blind the killer
That is perfectly normal and obviously intended mechanic.
Counters to Flashbang users:
Flashbang users have to get really close to get a Flashbang save since their window is approximately 1 second into the pick up anything later the killer is able to dodge by LOOKING UP or to the side
Because of this fact Flashbang users can be easily caught out if you just look around a corner or fake you’re pick ups by just standing there and then quickly walk around you’re surroundings anything to mess with the timing of you’re pick up can make the Flashbang user hesitate and mess up the save.
This should go without saying that Flashbang saves are not guaranteed and in fact are harder to pull off imo compared to flashlight saves since flashlight saves have a more generous window and such have more wiggle room to get saves consistently but flashlights can’t blind when there’s a wall so Flashbang has its niche when it comes to blind saves and it’s a very easy niche to counter even with background player.
This should also go without saying but getting caught lacking and getting blinded while picking up is normal, can be annoying but it’s part of the game and the survivors who pulled it off deserve it so suck it up and just try again and be smart if you know there’s survivors lurking around to blind you.
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It's because the devs designed flashbang to be radius based not visual remember it's an explosion not a light beam shining into your eyes it's always been this way background player has just got more people realizing this , firecrackers do the same
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Back then it was common practice to say it to killers as well, still is.
I remember back with old DS people would legitimately tell you to just run Unnerving Presence + Enduring to counter it. Or to run Shattered Hope for Boons or Franklin's for keys (and then again for med kits).
Lets not turn this into an Us vs Them. People have been using this same excuse on both sides for this games entire life span. It's not exclusive to one side. And no matter which side it is affecting you shouldn't have to run a perk just to counter something.
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BGP+FB has the same counter as BU+FtP: situational awareness.
If you can go an entire half chase, at minimum, and not notice that there's a second survivor following you, that's a huge issue with paying attention to your surroundings that the devs can't fix.
Tunnel vision is literally the problem here, and it's a giant gap in game sense. Especially if you're getting hit with this repeatedly. Turn around once in a while, look around.
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I don't recall telling survivors to run any perk to counter broken killer perks/mechanics. So not sure who you are attempting to strawman there.
Besides that, I am a survivor main myself but I try to call out things that are broken on either side and BGP combined with flashbangs and flashlights has no counter other than Lightborn.
If you down a survivor in the open away from any walls and there are BGP gamers in the match, you actually cannot pick them up if you don't have LB and that does seem unfair to me.
Perhaps the only moderate counter is to hard tunnel out anyone who runs BGP
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u can be aware of your surroundings but it really in the survivors favor just like ftp combo. Am I surprised? no! the games have plenty of uncountable scenarios on both side.
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I'm typically on the same page as a lot of you. But if I may!
I've been told many times during my complaining about tunneling that 'There are perks to counter your issue. Use them."I know Lightborn has been mentioned, but Im gonna mention it again. There is a perk that solves the issue this thread is bringing up.
No, I dont think this solves 'the issue', but I know how BHVR does things and I wouldn't hold my breath.
Besides, as a killer, do you really want EVERYTHING to just be safe? Wouldn't that make gameplay repetitive?
I mean I'm sure someone isn't going to say this is more common than not. Especially when it can be countered with… a perk!
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Do you think perks are a good counter to tunnelling though? If you don't then this is very hypocritical.
You shouldn't have to rely on a perk to counter something that is otherwise near impossible to counter. This applies to both sides not just one.
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Don't throw around logical fallacy buzzwords in an attempt to shutdown a discussion without knowing what they actually mean.
They're simply pointing out a double standard which still to this day happens. Prove thyself was thrown around very frequently for gen regression perks, distortion is thrown around for aura perks, and (don't get me started on this absurd one) calm spirit was thrown around for ultimate weapon. Just because you can't remember them doesn't mean they don't exist.
It is a skill issue if a killer can't pick up a survivor when background player and flashbang are in play.
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You hit the nail on the head.
Also killers fearing Background Player and flashbang 60 seconds in the trial when it's extremely improbable to be in play that early without items (surv needs to be on a gen since the second the trial started and has 15 seconds to collect the flashbang and run to the killer). They aren't just making a mountain out of a molehill, they're turning it into mount everest.
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Not throwing around anything, I point out issues on both sides so it was indeed an attempt to strawman me. No double standards were coming from me.
Oh and no, it isn't a killer skill issue regarding flashbang pickups, the timing is ENTIRELY on the survivor not the killer. Killer is locked in animation and has no control once that animation starts.
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When 'the other side' decides this is the case, I will bend. Until then, fair is fair, and BHVR clearly thinks this is fair.
I use to dislike the 'us vs them', but when you dive in, things become a lot more fun lol
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It has nothing to do with background player or flashbangs, it is a bug that has been around since unknown released that allows survivors to walk through killers when they pick up a survivor. It creates a ton of other problems, for example if someone was at a pallet, you could pick them up on one side of the pallet to body block a potential save, forcing someone who is saving to go around the other side. But now they can just walk through you and drop the pallet anyway.
I reported it here:
I'd suggest upvoting/posting in the thread to get more traction on it.
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I've always felt that Flashbangs should've had a minimum range restriction added onto them that required the Flashbang to be dropped at least one meter in front of the killer to blind them so it couldn't bypass the only counter to blinding saves of facing a wall.
Currently the only reason killers are still running Lightborn when they don't see any flashlights in the lobby is because of how unfair Background Player + Flashbang is and how common it tends to be. Plus, unlike with a flashlight, the killer can't see if a survivor is running Flashbang until it's most likely too late.
Flashbangs in their current state with Background Player on top of them, in my personal opinion, are just as "balanced" as the original version of No One Escapes Death.
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I mean, that’s intended? Flashbang isn’t a flashlight, don’t know how flashbang is becoming a problem all of a sudden when there are ways to counter them and that’s how they work.
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I again will urge you to actually look up the definition of a strawman, because based on that response, you still don't know what it means. Also the person who responded to you was pointing out a double standard in the community based on the situation you described, it doesn't mean you necessarily hold to it.
If the Killer is picking up in a lose-lose situation, that is a skill issue. Flashbang plays have to be done within 12 meters of a pickup, flashlights require you to be even closer in most cases. A killer can see scratch marks or hear running from that distance very easily. It is a skill issue if the Killer suspects the other side to make a play, and not adjust their strategy accordingly.
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Stop acting like killers haven't received anything basekit over the years. Killers get bloodlust, 2 tiers of speed boost. It was given to help killer until map reworks (infinites).....yet here we still are, with primarily killer sided maps. What about mini pop? When kicking gens was introduced, it just began gen regression. Then it gave a 2.5% regression (percentage may be slightly off), and now it removes 5% every time a killer kicks a gen, basekit.
These are both quality of life changes, although one could argue that killers got the better end of this deal.
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It obviously shouldn't work while a killer is facing a wall. Anyone arguing it should is obviously trolling.
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That's not the point. We're talking about something that can only be countered by either using Lightborn or slugging. Because Lightborn is the only option as far as perks go, you could say that it kind of becomes a must-have, which puts in the same spot that BT was pre 6.1.0. However, Lightborn base kit is not an option. So we'll need a different solution for this mess.
The point of me bringing up base kit adjustments for survivors was not to say that survivors got so many things (though compared to pre 6.1.0, the survivor role has a few more toys as well) but to counter @Aven_Fallen's argument, that you just have to bring Lightborn every match because BT was in the same position and became base kit for that very reason.
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Flashbangs (only firecrackers back then) used to be more rare, and there was no Background Player, so it was kinda fine. These days, it feels AWFUL.
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If you are not slugging in situations that would benefit you, i.e. free health state, game ending play, survivor rescue imminent, that is a skill issue.
As sad as it is to admit, knowing when to slug is a skill. Saying lightborn is a "must have" could not be further from the truth. There's a reason lightborn is never seen in high rank gameplay, and it's not always because the killer wants to run 4 slowdown perks. It's because the killer has the skill and knowledge to render lightborn useless in 99% of cases.
The "solution for this mess" already exists: increase your game sense and be mentally present in all the trials you play in.
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If you are not slugging in situations that would benefit you, i.e. free health state, game ending play, survivor rescue imminent, that is a skill issue.
Got it. Now I'll just start slugging everyone ever single game with no exception because I can't know who has and hasn't BGP. Does that sound reasonable to you? Or even fun to play against for that matter? I assure you, if I want all of you on the ground, I have my ways. It includes Knock Out and probably 1 or 2 survivors dead from bleeding out. But that's the only kind of slugging that works as prevention.
No amount of game sense will hold the person with a flashbang + BGP back from running halfway across the map, glitching themself into the killer and getting the save. Let's not pretend here. That person does not need to be right next to the killer when they pick up. That's what BGP is for.
But of course I could be wrong about all of this. So I ask you: How? How do you actually counter flashbangs + BGP? Staring at a wall doesn't work thanks to a glitch. Chasing them away doesn't work either because they are nowhere near you and even then you need the down because they could return and still get the save. Lightborn doesn't work because it can be circumvented and I've already seen my share of survivors doing just that. So how do I counter it? Step by step, please. Because it seems that many of us could really learn from you.
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lol here's a hot take: Killers staring at walls has no counterplay. Now there is one.
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You can only get a flashbang save from 12 meters away with background player. I have said this in both threads recently that this discussion has occurred in the past week. Slugging in the way you are hyperbolically suggesting is not how a good player would play.
If you are making an entire build centered around denying a flashbang + background player play when all you have to do is be aware of your close surroundings and go after a survivor if they are close by, that is 100% a skill issue.
Here is your step by step guide:
1) Hop into a game vs bots as your favorite killer
2) Press W and hold for roughly 2.6 seconds (115% killers only)
3) Draw a mental circle around where you are, where the radius is where you started the 2.6 seconds prior
4) Realize that's how small of an area you have to quickly check by panning your camera or walking around any line of sight blockers in order to successfully counter a flashbang + background player play
5) If you see another survivor in that area, chase them and hopefully get a hit. If they are ever farther than the radius you memorized earlier, it is safe to pick up as that specific survivor won't be able to get the save. If there are multiple people going for the save and there are still a good amount of gens remaining, realize you've won the game because most of the survivors are not doing gens and you have effectively stalled the game.2 -
A counter that requires:
1) 45 seconds minimum on a generator for each use
2) No exhaustion status applied despite the plethora of perks and addons that apply it
3) 2 perk slots that don't guarantee success
All that to counter looking at a wall. Let that sink in, it's getting cold outside.2 -
Isnt staring at wall the counterplay? This has to be bait, its like saying dodging huntress hatchets has no counterplay, huntress should get something in return. Brother, they are countering the play you are making thats how countering things work.
Should nemesis get a counter for when people use vaccines? Absolutelly not, because the vaccines are the counterplay to his power.
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Lightborn😆
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You might want to check the math because this is wrong. A survivor with Background Player moves at 8 m/s. The pick up animation takes 3 seconds. In 2.6 seconds, the killer covers roughly 12 metres of distance. A survivor with Background Player does that in 1.5 seconds. So they still have 1.5 seconds left to get the save which is more than even the time window you have a for save.
If that is the strategy to go for then you need to account for roughly 2.5 seconds of BGP which is 20 metres of distance and about 4.3 seconds to walk for the killer. The diameter of a circle with this range is 40 metres. This is 2/3 of a Midwich corridor. Do you have any idea how large that area is? I mean, that's enough for a 3gen. You cannot seriously think that this is fine and if you do, then I don't know what game you've been playing. I mean, even as you patrol that area, you give another survivor time to actually come close enough for a BGP + flashbang safe.
This is ridiculous.
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There ya go.
Lightborn exists. It squashes this threads 'problem.' Not going to use it? Then enjoy the wall light show.
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You can only get the flashbang save between 1 and 1.5 seconds of the pickup animation. 1.5 seconds being the longer time means 1.5 seconds * 8 m/s = 12 meters. If you took off lightborn and played the game without it, you would know that flashlights and flashbangs do not immediately get the save the second you click them into action.
You're well within your right to question my math, but before you go disproving it, I suggest you actually know what figures you're talking about because you would arrive at the same conclusion I did. I don't know what version of dbd you're playing where flashlights are instant, because that has been patched out of the game for the past 4 years now.
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I would like the resolution of this cosmic mathematical debate. What is the right time? I NEED THISSSssss…..!
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I've mostly heard between 1 and 1.5 seconds depending on ping and the flashlight grace period, which I will apply to flashbang for the worst case scenario. Realistically, it is closer to 1 second, which would mean between 8 and 12 meters and not 12 meters radius. In practice, 10 meters is more likely the correct radius in which a survivor can make the play.
However, the right time is… insert famous doctor who quote here.
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The flashbang takes about a second to explode. If you factor in that the killer actually has to look away from the flashbang too, 2.5 seconds is pretty reasonable. Let's say you play on a high DPI though, so you can move your camera even quicker and make it 0.3 seconds. Just to give you a bit of ground here. Then you have 3.3 seconds - 1 second = 2.3 seconds. This is faster than a console player will be able to move their camera but for the sake of this argument we consider a pc player.
That's still 18.4 metres of distance you cover during that time. So my previous calulation would still be very accurate. See how that goes? I chose numbers that favor you and it's still not working, while you chose numbers that heavily favored your own point even though you admitted, that you don't know the exact time. This only shows me that you are willing to hold onto your opinion no matter the facts. Even if I were to magically summon a spreadsheet with proof, you would still not be willing to admit you're wrong.
On that basis, I am no longer willing to discuss this with you because it leads nowhere. I am willing to admit when I have been proven wrong (like about Skull Merchant) but it seems the same cannot be said for you, so I honestly don't think this exchange is of any value.
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No, you are wrong on all accounts.
If you use flashbang too early, the killer is still within the pickup animation and will not be affected. It MUST be thrown between 1 and 1.5 seconds of the killer's pickup animation depending on ping. Also, unless you're playing on 5 dpi, a simple mouse flick is more than enough (less than .1 seconds), so there is essentially no camera move time.
This is the second time you are "no longer willing to discuss" the topic of flashbang + background player because the facts simply aren't on your side. There are youtube videos, steam guides, and more showing how to correctly time a flashbang save, and they are all between 1 and 1.5 seconds of the killer's animation starting. I am more than willing to admit when I am wrong when there is proof that disproves the facts that I am presenting. You are simply ignoring what the proven facts are because you don't like them, which isn't helping this discussion at all.
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But by this logic, the same applies to the other side, and they won’t bend for the same reasons. And now it’s just a cycle.
You’re using the same logic and justifying it very hard, yet don’t agree with it when it affects you. If you think it’s not fair to run a perk just to counter tunnelling but then provide the exact same logic and justify it hard, then sorry that’s just hypocritical and petty for the sake of being petty.
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The issue is they both claim they are using 'facts'. One has to be false, so…
How to fix this?
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Often times both have some merit but each side refuses to admit it, or they are both completely wrong and twist everything to suit their narrative.
In this case though, no matter which side it is if you shouldn’t have to run a perk just to counter something that is otherwise near impossible to counter. This isn’t just BGP flash bangs I’m talking, this applies to everything from tunnelling to Ultimate Weapon.
How do you fix it? You can’t really. There will always be some form of Us vs Them in an asymmetrical type game. Only thing you can do is try not to resort to Us vs Them to not make the issue larger. If you know something is an issue, then you should agree to solve it rather than use the unrelated opinion of someone (who probably isn’t worth listening to in the first place) to justify it being unfair.
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Im all for solving things, but this is the internet. There is no way the ego's who lie within will ever work towards this lol.
However, the 'us vs them' can be a fun and immersive experience. Its not exclusively toxic like a few here would have you believe. Like everything, it's how we use it.
That said, Im gonna hop on and start flash/banging only the walled killers. I'm not naive enough to think this won't eventually get patched. But its here now, and I just watched a few randoms get tunneled two outta my last three games. It really does make it more pallet'able lol.edit: a lil inebriated, all over the place.
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PEOPLE stop your bickering, the time has come to fully embrace the glory of our Lord and to be protected by their shades.
Bask in the love and protection of our Lord and savior..…LIGHTBORN 😎
May we be born in the light so it may never blind us again. Amen.
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They were attempting to make an argument based on arguments I had not made, in other words a strawman.
I don't hold a double standard here as I see faults on both sides, I am not making a one sided argument.
You clearly don't play killer if you think this is a killer skill issue, BGP can put you in situations where you literally cannot pick up and the only out is the survivors screwing up the timing, which they admittedly do.
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That is not what they were doing. They made a tongue-in-cheek comment about how killers would react to survivors complaining about an issue similar regarding running a perk to counter it. That's pointing out a double standard. If they would have said "you (specifically) don't care about the survivor experience at all" that would have been a strawman. It is simplifying your argument, and by doing so, can be extended to looping, tunneling, camping, etc. Do you see how that is different than "Funny now it's unfair. Back then killers were fine telling a survivor to run x perk?" They never said anything about what you thought or changed any argument. They are introducing the nuance to the discussion about if the shoe was on the other foot.
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no matter if you play killer or survivor when one side has a broken combo of some kind they want to keep it like flashbang+BGP and FTP+buckle up and yes there broken.the different is killer don't keep broken thing for long like gen regression perks combos and starstruck nurse but I know they needed to go so does Flashbang+BGP and FTP+Buckle up.
anyone who say tho combo are fine either don't play killer or care about the killer have a good time.
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I think its funny that people are so against using Lightborn but then will run the same four boring slowdowns every game???
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