The Twins Feedback

Thank you for taking away "survivors holding Victor hostage" problem.

I do like this version of Twins way better than the PTB Twins. The whole concept of the PTB Twins was really bad, and I hope BHVR doesn't try to move around the numbers to make it work. It is ok that current Twins can slug, and I wish BHVR would stop this crusade where every killer strategy is demonized (i.e. slugging), and attempts are made to nerf them.

I also don't know why killer strategies are demonized (i.e. camping, tunneling, 3-gen, slugging)…. but everything survivors do is fine? Why can't we work on survivors that are excessively hiding, or other things that are really unfun for killers? When do we get to the part where survivor strategies get nerfed because they are unfun for killers?

Very happy with this current Twins. More rewarding if you play well and more punishing if you play bad, that's good design. The faster recovery on downing a survivor and being able to recall Victor when attached sooner both feel amazing and remove two of the biggest clunkyness The Twins had and what prevented a lot of people from enjoying them. I'm assuming the Victor attaching to survivors that have Endurance is a bug, but honestly as others have mentioned as well, this feels fine. It seems kinda like a neutral change but I'm a bit more positive leaning towards it. Just leave it, no need to fix. Most people are liking it.

Honestly the last issues with The Twins are just the walk to pick up a survivors and their addons. All the walking to pick up might not be much of an issue though with all the other QoL kinda offsetting it though. However, the addons are still terrible. The need a full addon pass. Now essentially all you're ever running is just Victor movespeed addons and a Spinning Top when you see lots of items, that's it. Very little diversity of options. I was disappointed to see that Weighted Rattle got reverted as well, I had been excited to use that and now it's bad again.

Overall these changes make them feel so much better to play and I expect to see an uptick in usage of The Twins. Please don't nerf any of this, it's solid and being received generally positive by most people.

My only real problem when versing the twins is that Charlotte can recall victor immediately after hitting a healthy survivor. If she finds you then deploys victor she can hit you, recall, send victor right back out. Holding victor hostage was a problem, but I think even a 5-10 second window where she can't recall would feel better to verse without drastically bringing down her power level.

edit: I guess it is 10 seconds before recall atm. It feels pretty quick considering how easy it is to hit someone with victor.

Is Victor's cooldown supposed to be shorter after he downs someone? The 5 second cooldown was kinda needed for adequate counterplay if the killer player doesn't intend to switch back to Charlotte. If the goal is to let players switch back to Charlotte sooner (which I'd even say is a good thing), then allow switching back to Charlotte during Victor's hit cooldown. But if the player intends to stay controlling Victor then it should be a 5 second cooldown like it was before.

One of the top few things that made Twins feel clunky and people not want to play them was that stun. Having to eat a 5 second DS stun on every successful down feels terrible. It's punishing you for playing well. Being able to swap during this, while feeling nice, doesn't fix the problem. Playing the Twins like this loses you games so you don't really want to be doing that. The chain hits is how she's good.

It became a very boring killer because there was no countermeasure.
4k is possible even with no skill player.

↓ Please revert this.

Victor’s Pounce now latches onto Survivors when they are put into the dying state. While Victor is attached, the Survivor cannot return to the Injured state. Other Survivors can crush Victor during this time to help the dying Survivor. Victor automatically returns to Charlotte after 20 seconds. (NEW)

The Twins feel so so so so much better and smoother to play. These quality of life changes were much needed! Thanks for listening to feedback from the PTB and reverting the latch changes.

I really like the ability to CHOOSE to recall Victor early from a latch, or allow him to remain latched onto a Survivor. These have many different use cases, such as keeping Victor up as a Killer Instinct detector or as info on the latched Survivor's whereabouts, or as guaranteed lockout from objectives on the latches survivor. The freedom of choice here makes them a lot more interesting to play!

The only thing needed is for the ability to let Victor pick up and hook Survivors (and maybe self-destruct once he does); otherwise, until then, the Twins will continue to HAVE to slug no matter what changes are made to The Twins.

However, with the qol tweaks Victor's full potential has been unleashed, and the Twins are incredibly strong in a way that does not feel healthy.

Twins may feel better to play as, but certainly not against.

Before, what kept Victor in check was:
1) The fact that he latches on healthy hits locked them out of their power for a long time, so he can't snowball too hard
2) The slower pounce charge was the only thing a Survivor could rely on to try to get behind cover
3) The Twins were sluggish in general, so the mere time it took to play them balanced out how fast he could down Survivors

Most of these safeguards have been removed, and Victor feels like he's going off the deep end.

As much as I have always loved Twins, the Victor's Pounce's counterplay has always essentially been, "pray that the Killer is impatient and misses" (… which is not really a counterplay), or loop a really small object like a tire because Victor has trouble getting in position to Pounce. The second option has effectively been removed in this patch.

New and impatient Twins players will pounce as soon as the charge is full, but experienced Twins players will charge a pounce and walk at a Survivor with full charge until they've out-positioned themselves with nowhere to go, and there's not really much one can do against this.

Personally, I think Victor either moves or pounces way too fast for reasonable counterplay (and always has), especially now with faster pounce charge and the fact that he can be taken out and recalled nearly anywhere.

The pounce cooldown/extra movement speed addons are always going to be the most-run addons because of how sheerly strong they are (I personally think they should be toned down a bit more or reworked to a different effect, especially since Toy Sword has been made base kit).

I also recognize nerfing Victor's move speed or pounce flight speed could have dire consequences in how good they feel to play, or may make them too difficult to play. I fear this is a very tricky and dangerous balancing situation, and I don't know what a good solution would be, honestly.

uhh it was reverted, this never made it to live.

The time with no power does feel bad but I’m more worried they’re gonna nerf them.

I miss the haste effect. It takes a hot minute to catch back up.

It’s a tough fix. The core problem is that there’s zero fun on charlotte, she does nothing. She’s an m1 with no power. So the more you limit Victor chain hitting the more the player is forced to walk around as an m1 with no power, boring, plus weak, but more importantly boring. People want to limit Victor and I get it, but the more we do that the more we need to give some additional fun factor to charlotte. Maybe charlotte needs an ability of her own as well.

Yeah, I agree. The main reason I never play Twins is bc I hated then I was forced to play Charlotte whenever I latched Victor on a survivor. She is just boring to play and the feeling of the true fun of your power being held for 30 seconds by a survivor. I wanted to play this version of Twins because you call recall Victor off a survivor but Mandy says that a bug so I really don't want to play them now.

On the last page, she confirms that recalling Victor after 10s from latching onto a survivor is a bug and will be fixed in the next hotfix patch. This means it will go back to being a 30sec if the survivor decides to hold him hostage.

I agree the whole reason I wanted to try this version of twins was bc I could recall victor after a hit on a healthy survivor. I never liked being powerless for 30 seconds just bc the survivor refused to crush him off their back. So now I wouldn't touch this killer ever.

Dang yeah, back to having their power taken hostage. I was giving good praise on the Twins changes too. I guess I take that all back. Twins are still going to be just as unpopular to play as they were before now.

I just want to reiterate what I just said in another thread….

If Twins goes back to 30 second Victor hostages, then I’ll stop playing Twins again, and I’ll consider this entire Twins rework to be a complete failure.

It’s literally the only thing I cared about, and wanted fixed.

Yeah, same, KEKW. Literally played 2 matches, was kinda glad to play them now, because i used to hate play Twins, but now they are fun. Then read Mandy's reply and was thinking "

I probably won't even with 20 sec. Unless they won't come up with something completely new, what will make Charlotte fun in these 20-30 seconds.

Survivors need a better window to kick Victor after a missed or successful pounce, it's truly way too short.

To recall Victor after only 10 seconds is pretty insane. I think 20 seconds would be a nice middle ground.

what do you mean that recalling victor is a bug? the entire rework is a bug? the summary of the entire rework is the ability to recall victor. On surface level, it is one line sentence but it massively improves twin's as a killer. I have no interesting play twins if that get removed.

The time with no power does feel bad but I’m more worried they’re gonna nerf them.

my current gameplay with twins is like downing two survivors as victor, picking one survivor up, the other person get picked up and doing that 3-4 times per game. I am not joking when i say that I am downing survivors 10-15 times per game.

every game is like 15 minutes long because I don't get rewarded for slugging. the survivor just gets free second chances and get ups because time efficiency to hook takes too long. it is same problem that i described for twins for long time and slugging general. slugging for bleed out is impractical for the killer but hooking is also impractical for twins. The result is extremely long matches even though killer is outplaying the survivor left right and center.

Twins becoming unpopular is probably a very good thing for the game as a whole though, considering how insufferable they are to verse for most people. But a killer being fun to go against is sadly not something BHVR always takes into consideration.