We kinda need a anti-stall mechanic for survivors
Might be a weird title. But it's the best I could come up with with 2 gens left on red forest with 2 survivors not touching either for over 30 minutes as I walked around looking for them. I don't know if they were using items to prevent themselves from ever getting crows since the one I did find was in a corner away from everything else. Now I get it 2 gens with 2 survivors is probably not the easiest to come back from. But I did not play in a way that could be perceived really as unfair. First survivor I downed just wanted to go next (like usual). And the 2 survivors let their other teammate die on hook I guess because he wasn't grouped with them or something. So to spite me for some reason, they just hard stealth. I get it's reportable eventually but it's fairly boring when it happens. It could be nice to have something where if a survivor doesn't do over 10% of a gen for like 5 minutes or something they get max AFK crows until they actually work on a gen for long enough. Other ideas I've seen is aura reveal or Killer instinct. Just something that says the "hiding" has gone on long enough lol. It's like the opposite of 3 genning since the survivors don't even plan to do the gens. They are just keeping you here as long as they can.
Anyone else have a stance on this and what it could look like?
Comments
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You could run Whispers, Spies, or any other number of perks that detect immersed survivors. The response to survivors who face uncomfortable playstyle is always to “run X perk.” Apply that to your killer games as well. 🤷🏽♀️
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Ironically that's not how I feel about things. I'm aware that perks can help this scenario (depending on the situation) though that can go in many cases of the past with borrowed time DS and the Like as you stated. And to not dive into stuff like basekit BT because I definitely believe it's healthy for the game as a 50-50 player. The thing is, this isn't playing the game, and is actually listed as a bannable offense as your holding the game hostage. Same as SM players who would just kick gens and never chase. And they changed that by introducing the kick limit. So if the survivors want to do the reverse and refuse to touch a gen for over 15 minutes. The game should step in and say enough by actually either forcing them into a Chase or to actually interact with the gens. Because then your just not playing the game at that point. The goal is to do the gens and escape. Not hide for as long as possible.
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The two Survivors hiding is simply the Survivor-side version of slugging. They are dragging things out looking for another option. The difference being the Killer slugging for a 4K is at least still advancing toward his/her objective. Hiding for an hour and still losing since you don't get out is counterproductive. All that being said, just as I feel slugging is a valid tactic for Killers, hide and seek is a valid option for the Survivors. Perhaps they think they can make you quit and win by attrition. :) There are Perks to help you find them. I run into this frequently enough when I sacrifice the first two while there are still two or more Generators to be done. You will eventually find them. It is just the game.
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Survivors must participate in normal gameplay as defined as things that progresses their goal of escape. Healing and using items is normal gameplay. Deliberately throwing themselves at a killer is not.
I think the devs are cautious about explicitly stating that survivors must reveal themselves to a killer when there is no reasonable chance of escape because that would attract a lot of blowback. They’ve been pretty skittish about their positioning on certain playstyles since Patrick said survivors who loop for 5 gens but still end up on hook or dead aren’t skilled players. It’s also why there’s no reveal mechanic or whatever to expose immersed survivors. They allow slugging and tunneling and camping, which are legitimate playstyle. But so is immersion.
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Had to find this as it's been a while. It's been over 4 years since this statement. Though this hiding has been around since pretty much the beggining. Same as a killer blocking a survivor into a corner until they inevitably die. Personally I just think a mechanic would make it less of a pain point so it doesn't have to resort to just "I lose 30+ minutes of my time but you get a ban"
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Since killers are allowed to kick gens hiding is the only strategy left. So far every suggested solution I have read is an immediate loss for both remaining survivors and I don't have a good solution either.
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Not a direct solution, but an indirect tool to mitigate both this situation, and tunneling/genrushing:
Repair speeds scale based on the number of survivors sacrificed/number of gens repaired.
Each sacrificed survivor increases repair speeds by 10%.
Each generator repaired decreases repair speeds by 5%.
Values may need tweaking, but the gist of it is that either side 'stomping' the other instigates a snowball-dampening effect. Genrush = the last couple gens are harder. Tunnel = the last few gens are quicker.
This would make repairing gens when you're down to the last 2 survivors more feasible, particularly if one of them can distract the killer.
It's not going to eliminate immersed and selfish survivors, but it'll provide a viable alternative for survivors who don't want to play this hiding game but feel they have to.
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My only real suggestion is to make it so that after like 10-15 minutes of a match:
Survivors will gain crows after not doing 3-5% of a gen in a minute (revealing their location through noise notifications)
- Crows will NOT be gained if in a chase or currently on a gen
After 40 minutes they gain permanent crows
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Honestly, this feels like it should have been addressed by now. I won't complain too much about gameplay styles, except when it's pure time wasting. Being held in a corner by a killer sucks, and so does survivors hiding and not touching the gens. As both are boring as hell to deal with.
I'd be fine with a system to address survivors hiding when there's only two left, but it would be nice if BHVR found a way to allow survivors to progress a match somewhat, when only two survivors are left. Alleviating the reasons why survivors just hide when there's only two left would make situations like that less common.
I don't know how to fix it though, and I've never seen a solid solution other than removing the hatch. Which would be a massive buff to killer players (coincidently).
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Anti facecamp
Anti 3-gen
Anti tunneling
3 features that have been introduced into the game despite certain perks alredy existing. I think its totally reasonable when killers demand something too for a situation that is also very annoying to them.15 -
They don't have to throw themselves at the killer but they can't hide around the map for minutes on end, I had 2 survivors hide for 15 minutes, recorded it, reported them, then got notifications that action was taken because its just against game rules to do nothing and hold the other side hostage.
There's an upper limit to how long you can hide around and do nothing, you have to start pressuring gens or doing something to progress the match or you are just holding it hostage.
Ideally something like this just gets a mechanic to draw a line for us instead so it no longer has to be a reportable issue or a possibility for bitter survivors. Removing this as an outlet means less support time wasted, and less annoying "plays".
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The huge problem with this is slugging for the 4k.
I'm a slug for the 4k situation, you have one survivor standing and waiting with gens left to complete, and the killer is just looking for them.
That last survivor has to hide, which is considered normal gameplay, for at least 4 minutes for the bleed out, another couple minutes for hatch, and if the killer finds hatch first, then 2 minutes of EGC mind games to get a door open.
If you are just going to give the killer free information on the survivor during all of this, then you're really just asking for all survivors to be auto sacrificed when 2 players and any number of gens remain.
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I mean there are 2 ways of thought:
First, if the killer manages to get half a team dead by the time only 2 or even 3 generators are left, they would win that match anyway. So an introduction of periodic aura reading after x amount of minutes by 2 survivor left (and with no generator progress, this one is important. You dont want to punish people for doing gens).
But then what reason would the remaining survivors have to even try? then they start throwing or afk-ing which is alredy rampant enough right now so we dont want to make this even worse.
Second suggestion would be to make hatch appear earlyer again (which i personally would find horrible and litteraly every other killer player aswell. This would again punish people for doing their objective just the other side this time.)
So why not have a middle ground? The killer gains aura read but the survivors get some sort of Speed boost (nothing too crazy please) or even faster exhaustion reduction for their perks. Just something to asist slightly in chase so the other person can do gens, making the game more interesting once more since chases are supposed to be the most fun part according to what i have heard people say.
Obviously this is just broad and would need more in depth thinking. But emphazising the fun part of the game more is never a bad idea i think.2 -
You mean the anti face camp mechanic that is completely circumvented by proxy camping at 11m? So I guess this anti survivor mechanic would be disabled by crouching for 1 second.
Or the anti 3 gen mechanic that also came with free any gen tap? So which "compensation" mechanic should survivors get that always applies in every game, even if stalling doesn't occur?
I have no idea what anti tunneling is, since every single anti tunnel effect is a perk, which is exactly their point.
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Basekit BT kinda. Since when I started the killer could just be undetectable and down you through even BT as a perk since it relied on TR.
Lucky new players lol.
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You dont know what anti tunnel is? Have you never noticed that short immunity timer giving you the time you need to get away? We only had borrowed time for this before the mechanic. And people didnt say "oh just use BT" no. We have a mechanic now.
Not 3-genning yourself was a task that was SKILLFULL for the survivor team to do, spreading gens and not doing them on only 1 side of the map is anyway by far the better way to pressure the killer, there was no perk for this but also this technique was not really rocket science either. Still we have a mechanic for it.
Hook grabs have been removed aswell btw, when it was the easyest thing to just let go right at the hit and then unhook while the killer does their cleaning weapon animation. Hook trades used to be what they are called, TRADES. Now i can convieniently know i will get my buddy from hook and will have enough time to get away still, while as a killer you need them injured in order to profit off of UNSAFE rescues.
And you know what everyone used to do when people were hard or proxy camping without the anti facecamp mechanic? → Gens. Rush them, the killer is not chasing anyone. If they just sit around on the same spot not doing anything but camping their oh so precious 1k then its litteraly so easy to just rush gens and get out the door.4 -
BT is, was, and always has been an anti camping perk/effect. It exists to prevent instantly being downed on unhook by a camping killer.
Regarding 3 genning, I'd agree that it *used* to be a survivor issue before 6.1.0. then killers realized they could hold games hostage with gen kick perks. You talk like the gen kick and 3 gen metas didn't dominate the entire game for a year.
And 3 genning still hurts survivors who aren't paying attention. It's always been a problem to make the playing field that small, because it provides a huge opportunity to the killer to find and hook survivors. 3 genning by any party should not be an auto win, which was the entire reason that mechanic was added.
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We do need a killer-favoring "closing out the game" mechanic like that. Otherwise this issue goes unanswered.
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My stance on everything gameplay related is that at no point should standing still or doing nothing be encouraged or beneficial, but whenever I say that people get really defensive (Mostly because people don't agree with me whenever they can get an advantage by doing nothing).
I've been on the recieving end of both losing 30 minutes because 2 survivors decided not to do gens (and we could only end the game because one survivor tried to give up and I convinced them to rat out and sandbag their team mate) and being unable to outplay a killer because they could camp the exit gates by standing on top of a hill and rapidly flicker their mouse to check both at the same time.
None of those situations should be a thing. If a player is moving and the other is doing nothing, the one doing nothing should be the one getting pressured by the game, not the other way around.
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and yet basekit changes were made to address the most glaring issues especially when it comes to holding games hostage. 8 kick system for example.
your own argument contradicts your narrative.
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Yes, bt is an anti camp perk. So if we are not biased and have the same argument against survivors, why is there an anti facecamp? BT is alredy existing just like OTR. You get where im coming from?
And yeah i agree with the gen kick meta being bad. Also didnt help that skull merchant and knight were especcially designed to make it even stronger in their gameplay. Im not against these mechanics, im against the double standart. Now we have an issiue on the killer side since years, which is when 2 people are left an noone is doing gens. And we still have no mechanic for that. Why?
So you think people not paying attention need further hand holding? like what is your point? 3-genning should just never be punished ever? It should not matter which gens should done first? Im ok with that proposal, sure fine, i dont care im not a competetive player by nature, make the game as easy as you want it to be. But im very against the bias, as i said there is issiues like noone doing gens when its only 2 survivors. And these issiues exist for years yet we have not seen a single attempt at solving it, when we have alredy 3 basekit mechanics in place to help survivors and we had hook grabs removed aswell so "unsafe" rescues are never really unsafe no more.
Just recently we got returning hooks (after only 60 seconds though, whyever that is..) And guess what? People said how it is a display of "lack of skill" if a killer fails to manage his hooks and how there should be no "handholding".
So again, im not against these mechanics per say (only removal of hook grabs i dont understand at all) but im against the double standart where survivors are treated better than killers in the basekit mechanics area.4 -
I don't like this. This has a severe effect on balancing, is too opaque, and can be partially circumvented by survivors while putting both sides in high risk situations where there should be none. This means the optimal survivor strategy would be to 99% multiple gens (probably the first few in most cases) before popping them but then strong/busted killers and regression. Stacking Thanatophobia/Pentimento on this sounds like a nightmare. It would not be clear anymore if sacrificing a survivor is the best play even in the mid- & lategame. I think this actually benefits the strongest killers the most who can game the system with their mobility and lead to more slugging (tactical and full 4min bleedouts).
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I think the easiest way to add a mechanic IF one is need, and I'm not certain it is required, is to have the system start triggering crows on Survivors who haven't worked a generator for a few second at least in over a certain number of minutes. I don't know what would be a good amount of time to decide. Remember I'm not certain this is necessary. I would also stipulate this to only kick in when down to 2 or less Survivors.
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BT basekit literally does nothing to combat tunneling. Guess what? The killer is faster than me so what does that mean? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had a killer come back to hook, chase me down/body block me and wait for my BT timer to run out and then hit me and down me. I still got tunneled it just took the killer waiting out my timer while keeping chase with me the whole time to do so.
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To be fair it appears to be pretty rare.
I encounter this kind of plays maybe once or twice a year.
Another game had a mechanic where no interactions between opposing teams for a while would show everyone's aura to each-other until the situation is remedied.
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I think a basekit Whispers where it activates when survivors are just hiding and the killer hasn't been able to interact with them. Make it have conditions like if after 90 seconds there isn't atleast one survivor that's spent 5 seconds on a gen/healing and the killer hasn't interacted with any survivors in that time then they get Whispers until they find a survivor. If it's 2 survivors left and one is slugged/on hook then basekit Whispers won't activate. This should help in those extreme cases where the survivors are just hiding for extended period of time.
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we don't need a mechanic for something that rarely happens
most people don't want to waste their time doing this to spite the killer or just to get hatch instead of the other guy. Better ways to spend their time for most
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It gives you a speed boost when you are hit, you have more than enough time to reach a pallet or a loop with vaults.
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It happens alot, dont be disinginious.
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hapens quite often to me.
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people hiding? sure
people hiding for over half an hour?
come on…
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The most I have to do usually is about 2 or 3 rounds around the map then they start working on gens again.
Even that is relatively rare for me.
One of my "rules" is to try to only start killing when only two gens are left. I fool around as long as I need to until then.
Maybe it gives my opponents the feeling escape is possible so they end up trying.
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even if its only 10 minutes its boring af. Nothing happens. But ofc we treat killer issiues diffrently than survivor issiues
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handicapping yourself so the opponent participates in normal gameplay.. yeah im not gonna do that.
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You can use the speed boost to reach a pallet or loop with vaults, that should help enough.
But even so, what argument is there against a mechanic for killers when people are just hiding and not progressing the game?2 -
Remember back in the day as well where one of the strongest versions of this was freddy, even if they weren't asleep you could hit the survivor unhooking they become oblivious and then the unhooked survivor doesn't get bt
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Yep lol.
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I'm not handicapping myself.
I don't like to kill people with five gens left, that's all.
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I posted a suggestion a month ago about this:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/419871/revolutionizing-dead-by-daylights-endgame-a-bold-proposal-to-remove-the-hatch-mechanic#latest0 -
Also I mean I do that to. I couldn't control the one survivor that decided they weren't having fun after getting downed once. So they self died on hook. Then the other 2 let their teammate die. And then forced me into a stalled game for like 30 more minutes. After I found the one I was over it by that point. They had destroyed like almost 3 matches worth of time for me. I don't have hours to play I wanna get in do my dailys,challenges and the like. And just have fun. Not run around for 30+ minutes because people have nothing better to do.
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The issue is the premise is flawed. Survivors can't progress the game. Their objective is to escape, not to do gens. The only other play would be to slowly do small amounts of repairs, rotate constantly, have the anti-regression kick in, and get out just before the server times out.
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Skull Merchant holding players hostage for an hour wasn't very common, but it got nuked because of how crap it was to deal with.
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old SM games lasting that long were not common, SMs holding the 3 gen was very common except most of us aren't comp swfs so we were dying, DCing or killing ourselves on hook
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re-read what I said again. There is no speed boost because the killer doesn’t hit me straight off hook. They let you run and keep pace with you, sometimes body blocking you until your BT runs out. Then when they hit you’re just down. You don’t get the endurance speed boost when they do this. This is how the killers are countering off hook BT to continue to tunnel off hook.
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My point is that the most garbage stuff should go, even if it's not common. For example, I don't want to get held in a corner all match by a killer that's annoyed I didn't go down in chase fast enough, then go report the killer. I want BHVR to create a fix so the killer can't do that. It's uncommon, but the game should have a mechanism for it.
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The simple solution is to make it so that if a survivor doesn't touch a gen after 5 minutes they either automatically get crows or killer instinct until they touch a gen again
There should never be a normal scenario where survivors go that long without progressing the game forward
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This only happens when a) teammate did an UNSAFE rescue and b) you didnt manage to get to a strong loop in the meantime.
And funny how you ignore the other part of my post where i asked you what argument is there against a mechanic for killers when people are only hiding and not doing gens.2 -
TheArbiter above echoed my thought on Crows and I think his additional idea of the Killer instinct also works. I still think that if this issue really needs addressing either of these will work, but I wouldn't have this kick in until down to two Survivors or less. To be honest, I don't think this happens often enough to require man hours and coding to do. So just like I tell Survivors who get annoyed about being slugged now and then, I 'm going to tell Killers to just grin and bear it. Just keep looking.
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thats a very twisted and turned argument to make it look right. The only way for survivors to escape IS progressing gens. I dont see why we cant treat both sides equally, survivors get so many features basekit, why cant killers have something basekit aswell?
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if that suits your style then go for it. Just not a solution for me.
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