so should we expect plague/cenobite nerfs now?

considering that skull merchant was nerfed for her 70% killrate, i mean. plague/ceno are next on the roadmap for changes and are also in the top 10 killers for kill rates, so i’m guessing the devs are going to follow in the “high kill rate = nerf” philosophy?

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Comments

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,710

    i'd be shocked for them to nerf pinhead as he is already not very good. Plague, i can see them nerfing.

  • humanbeing1704
    humanbeing1704 Member Posts: 8,998

    realistically the only thing that should get a change on plague is black incense her kit is completely fine

  • LadyOwO
    LadyOwO Member Posts: 390

    That's the one that let's her see when survivors vomit correct?

  • humanbeing1704
    humanbeing1704 Member Posts: 8,998

    Yes it was even nerfed in the past but it’s still too much imo

  • SipSipSip
    SipSipSip Member Posts: 21

    Yes it is.

    Her other one gives her red puke for free five times a match.

  • HolyDarky
    HolyDarky Member Posts: 725

    She got nerfed because survivors gave up against her which resulted in a high killrate. The developers want to make her weak so nobody plays her and nobody has to face her until her rework (the date is still unknown). Players don't give up against these two as often as Skull Merchant. It is similar to other killers.

    I wish the developers would nerf these two killer and then buff them in the right direction:

    • Pinhead: Nerf his box in that way that he has no longer an unfair advantage against SoloQ (e.g. let survivors see the aura of other survivors when they in range of 10meters around the box and let us see the aura of the survivor who holds the box. A quick message like "I go for the box" would be the best). His Box spawn logic should also become more random, so it is impossible for the Pinhead player to get an idea of where the Box could spawn. Nerf his Original Pain Addon so it no longer enables easy tunnling. Buff his chains by giving him a better slowdown on the survivors and that he can no longer break his own chains with his body. They could also become easier to use for console players. The chain cooldown could also be reduced. Some Addons should also get a rework but since it is only a tweak, I highly doubt they will do Addon reworks.
    • Plague: Rework her Iridecent Seal Addon, make her Fountain spawns better (or at least make it so that the default one always spawns in the middle of the map), and give her two Fountains default (make yellow Apple Addon basekit and then rework this one). Also reduce her whisper VFX because this is really annyoing. Otherwise, Plague is mostly fine. She is one of the most balanced killers in the game. A unique chase music would also be great to hear. Fixing panthom hits would also be nice but this is difficult because it is ping/server depending.

  • LadyOwO
    LadyOwO Member Posts: 390
    edited September 15

    Survivors can already see the boxes aura across the map so that's a dumb idea lol. I exclusively solo queue as survivor and pinhead is hardly ever a threat unless you just neglect solving the box all together. Not to mention how his teleport spawns you in odd places depending on the map.

  • HolyDarky
    HolyDarky Member Posts: 725

    Reading carefully or at least asking what I mean would be helpful. I know that survivors can see the aura of the box. I mean when a survivor is within 10meters of the Box, the other survivors see the aura of this survivor that is within that range. This would at least tell the other survivors a bit sooner that someone is already going for the Box. The biggest issue in SoloQ is this box and the fear that no one will solve the box in time. Therefore, there need to be a feature that gives the survivors the security someone goes for the box. A quick message option would be the best but I highly doubt it.

  • Royval
    Royval Member Posts: 715

    I don’t think so honestly

  • HerInfernalMajesty
    HerInfernalMajesty Member Posts: 1,794

    Honestly Bhvr could turn Plague into an M1 Killer with no power and I’d still play as her. She’s just way way too cool to not use.

  • ChaosWam
    ChaosWam Member Posts: 1,837

    If they nerf Sadako like this, which I hope they won't because the rates we usually see posted are from around the time 2.0 become 3.0, but if they DO nerf Sadako the same way they did SM? I'll probably drop the game.

  • Laluzi
    Laluzi Member Posts: 6,161

    You know, I could actually live with that? I mean, I'd rage about all my muscle memory going down the drain, but I have a gazillion gorgeous outfits on Plague I want to show the world because she is so pretty, lady doesn't just get a dozen flashy robes and crowns but gets to be a wholeass mermaid if she feels like it… but I've leaned away from playing her recently because people just don't want to verse her. I don't like being greeted with DCs. :(

    Maybe I will play her more after the inevitable nerfs. But I love her addon spread and think her power's in a healthy (hah) spot, so the whole thing makes me sad. The biggest consistent issue I see with her is people just… being awful at dynamic decisionmaking. Or not knowing how to play against Plague, period. So often I see people cleansing and then running to unhook a sick person. Or healing up while sick. So of course those teams get 4ked… it only takes one survivor to give Plague a bunch of fountains, and I don't know how you fix that without gutting her. The only change I'd push for is giving survivors better information so that they can make better decisions (have black incense show itself, maybe make infected gens a little more obvious because the effect can be easy to miss.) Her design is fine, I think she really just isn't played often enough for people to know how to play against her complex power.

  • MechWarrior3
    MechWarrior3 Member Posts: 2,378

    I dont believe that to be true. You lose 20 seconds on your power even if you collect it from a fountain regardless if you lose a gen, but you still have to lose a whole gen for it to take effect. I'd say that is a huge cost.

  • TieBreaker
    TieBreaker Member Posts: 974

    You can't really compare SM to any other killer when it comes to being reworked. No killer has ever generated that much hostility from the playerbase. She is special in that way.

    If Pinhead's kill rate is too high, it's because he's hard for solo teams to deal with. All BHVR has to do is weaken the box, and make his chase power better. That would keep him strong, but less oppressive for solo players, and without ruining him.

    I don't see Plague getting changed much. She's one of the most unique killers in the game, and is well balanced. Being extremely strong, but not at the level of say Billy or Nurse. There's no incentive for BHVR to change her much.

  • Laluzi
    Laluzi Member Posts: 6,161

    On the flipside, they count games where a player suicides on first hook when a human observer is quite aware that game was rigged from the start and wasn't a real indicator of killer strength. This is why Skull Merchant just got nerfed.

    Both Pinhead and Plague are unpopular killers (to play and to face) with relatively high quit on sight rates (though nothing on Skull Merchant), and I would argue their kill rates are also inflated above their 'real' effectiveness because inexperienced survivors destroy themselves. Pig is also in this category, a player who doesn't know how traps work automatically dies, but she enjoys less of the dubious benefit of killing the team through uncoordination. Pinhead gets unbelievable pressure from either everyone going for the box or nobody going for it, and one person being a hypochondriac lets Plague nuke everyone else (and occasionally the reverse, if the team is doing a decent job staying clean and one person keeps infecting everything and getting one-tapped and needing rescue.) Nerfing killers that survivors widely perform badly against is rough business because it doesn't make the survivors who don't know how to play against that killer any better, it just makes it harder for the killer to compete with survivors who do know the counterplay.

    I'm more worried about Pinhead than Plague in this regard, because Plague is actually strong enough to hold her ground against coordinated survivors. Pinhead isn't.

  • HerInfernalMajesty
    HerInfernalMajesty Member Posts: 1,794

    1 Million percent yes! I believe it is a knowledge issue. But also, an issue with impatience. The teams that do best against me are the teams that play very meticulous, careful and patient. I believe the patience part is where most people are going wrong against her. At least that’s my experience playing against Survivors.

    What Survivors who are inexperienced against her go wrong is that they don’t know how OP cleansing is. You can force her to waste time by making her hit you without infection. Get infected then go heal a free health state.

  • notstarboard
    notstarboard Member Posts: 3,903
    edited September 15

    Unless something has recently changed, DCs are not included in kill rate stats. Historically they weren't.

    Edit: I see this point was already made. Wishing there was a delete button -_-

  • Laluzi
    Laluzi Member Posts: 6,161

    Yeah! People can get free heals off the hook by touching a sick gen and cleansing (and it's not uncommon for people to be uninfected if you just had a Corrupt Purge spree.) Playing Plague is practically guaranteeing everyone who isn't in chase with you gets an Adrenaline pop at the end of the game - survivors can heal almost whenever they want. And coordinated cleanse teams can destroy you. You can go from having 2 fountains and everyone infected to no fountains and everyone healthy, and all you get out of it is a Corrupt Purge with a vague idea of where someone might be if you saw the last fountain disappear (and weren't spinning around in panic when the fountains start flying, like I usually do.)

    And I have the hardest time with survivors who I'm trying to fully infect, and instead of weaving around obstacles, they bullrush me and start spinning around me in circles. Instant L. Can't deal with that camera frippery, have to take the M1 and deal with the distance.

    These are things you don't need to be in a SWF to pull off, you just need to know about them. But people seem to struggle counterplaying Plague because it's a bunch of "if the game state is this, do this" rules instead of a simple mandate like "never cleanse."

  • HerInfernalMajesty
    HerInfernalMajesty Member Posts: 1,794
    edited September 16

    This, this is nice. This Plague talk. It’s very refreshing ;)

    Playing Plague is practically guaranteeing everyone who isn't in chase with you gets an Adrenaline pop at the end of the game - survivors can heal almost whenever they want.

    Yes big time. End game is more difficult for her definitely.

    You can go from having 2 fountains and everyone infected to no fountains and everyone healthy, and all you get out of it is a Corrupt Purge with a vague idea of where someone might be if you saw the last fountain disappear

    Mhm yup. The teams that commit to staying cleansed usually do pretty well.

    And I have the hardest time with survivors who I'm trying to fully infect, and instead of weaving around obstacles, they bullrush me and start spinning around me in circles. Instant L. Can't deal with that camera frippery, have to take the M1 and deal with the distance.

    🤭 I know exactly what you’re talking about.

    These are things you don't need to be in a SWF to pull off, you just need to know about them. But people seem to struggle counterplaying Plague because it's a bunch of "if the game state is this, do this" rules instead of a simple mandate like "never cleanse."

    You’re right. The counter play is like one step too much. Which is too bad because I love playing against Survivors that know how to play against her.

    Have you ever noticed or experienced “pandemic” waves? Where you cause a huge mass infection, you get a lot of corrupt, the infection dies off, and you finally run out of corrupt ready to start the “wave” over? Some games I can get about two waves, sometimes three. It’s so thrilling and fast paced. I can’t get enough lol.

    One of my favorite things about playing Plague is this trance you get into where you become highly efficient at corrupt fountain pathing. It feels like I’m performing forbidden sacred geometry over the map like a spell or something lol. I was so fascinated with this feeling/concept that I created a build around it. Batteries included is the anchor perk that the build is made around. The build is Batteries Included, Fire Up, Thanatophobia, and Noed.

    It’s meant to make her more…idk…demonic as the ritual, I’m sorry trial, goes on. She’s usually weak at end game but this build kind of turns that on its head. I call this build The Apocalypse 💀

    Post edited by HerInfernalMajesty on
  • LordGlint
    LordGlint Member Posts: 8,472

    I'd agree with that... but they didn't change anything. They just hard nerfed everything. She actually WAS changed afew times and it didn't stop people from complaining about things that wasn't even relevant alot of the time.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,776

    The last time BHVR looked at Plague, she got some of her best addons heavily nerfed. They’ll probably do this again.

    But what Plague really needs, is for fully infected survivors to have some other downside, to encourage survivors to actually cleanse. The fountains are supposed to be a minor form of slowdown, where infected survivors spend time to cleanse themselves, but very often the survivors decide to just run around fully infected and broken, for very large portions of the game.

  • Langweilg
    Langweilg Member Posts: 1,178

    I would wonder if they are not getting nerfed, they will definitely not get buffs.

  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 541

    idk, but at this moment, i think giving up intentionally against specific killers is dbd community's version of whiny players in other communities review bombing their game just to force a nerf to specific aspect.

    And BHVR's response to it in terms of choosing to either gut a killer or significantly lower their skill expression is just the very sign of how spoiled dbd community is.

  • ChaosWam
    ChaosWam Member Posts: 1,837
  • dwight444
    dwight444 Member Posts: 428

    I don't think they're oppressive but plague is definitely boring to play against - the typical thana slowdown build and they'll still bring gen regression of course. Ceno is fine. My teammates usually don't go for the box til it's too late and it's probably because everyone assumes someone is gonna go for it. These are matchmaking issues though and not related to the killers being too strong

    I think everyone is blowing the SM thing out of proportion and wildly trying to link it to every little thing as if bhvr has in any way suggested that they will approach every nerf through the same lens as SM

  • Laluzi
    Laluzi Member Posts: 6,161

    Plague talk! From one Adiris afficionado to another. I love it.

    Yeah, I'm really prone to that. I have a particular… game plan, I suppose, that ticks me to try and hook 3-4 different survivors before I start using my fountains (good opportunities notwithstanding), and unless I have a team of Nurgle worshippers, I'll usually be nearing my fountain limit by the time I start going for it. Between that and the sick unhooks after I mow people down, after 2 or 3 Corrupts, they've been reset and everyone's healthy, so I have to go infect everyone all over again. I always thought that was poor game management on my part, but at the same time, I rarely struggle with it, it takes a coordinated team to truly capitalize on this - and there's benefits to infecting everyone again, because spreading it via gens and unhooks gives you excellent information on where survivors are. Usually it's two waves for me; they have to be insane cleansers to get three.

    That's largely because of my build - it's been shaken up by some of the semi-recent perk nerfs (rip STBFL, you are missed), but my mainstay is Plaything. God, I love Plaything on Plague. It does everything. It encourages cleanses, it gives you easy hits on one-taps, and it deals with the problem that survivors get really skittish once you activate Corrupt Purge. Can't flee at the first sound of a terror radius if I don't have one. Add in Discordance so you can go "target acquired" and you can pull off a lot of ambushes. She can make good use of most Undetectable perks, I've even played with Dark Devotion and it's very fun (though I think other killers can use it slightly better), but Plaything's become my mainstay.

    Ooh, the themes. Loving the Apocalypse Build… Thana was made for her (and it's another way to force people to cleanse) and I love Fire Up and Batteries Included on principle, but NOED is hilarious as an uno reverse card after everyone cleanses, and helpfully reveals their last known location, at the endgame. You thought you were safe… but the gods demand their sacrifice.

  • ObsidianButterfly
    ObsidianButterfly Member Posts: 103

    She's already a D-tier killer, but Merchant was C-tier and they still found a way to ruin her.

    At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to find a way to ruin Sadako as well.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,793

    BHVR has been pretty clear that their balance decisions take multiple factors into account. Skull Merchant is being nerfed into the ground for reasons different from just being too strong. It's possible that Pinhead and Plague could get nerfed in the future, but nothing like Skull Merchant, much more likely the usual 'some nerfs, some buffs' type of deal.

    I love this post. I also really like the idea that people would have kept this up for over a year.

  • Bookern
    Bookern Member Posts: 319

    but they included give ups on hooks thats massively skewing stats