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When are we cracking down on the give up culture in this game?
Seriously, this is getting old. Every single round, regardless of which role I play, there is someone either dc'ing or giving up on hook the moment they get caught. It doesn't matter if there's 5 gens left and they were just unlucky or the gates are powered with all survivors alive. It's actually to the point where I'm starting to play the game just less over all (which is probably for the better because this game consumed my life for a while there, I hear grass is nice) just because I can't play a normal match anymore. I seriously was talking to my friend yesterday celebrating the fact that a SINGULAR ROUND IN THE LAST WEEK did not have a single dc or give up on first hook. Not even an attempt, everyone ACTUALLY PLAYED. That is not how it should be. I shouldn't be celebrating the fact that in one match I played, no one gave up for seemingly no reason.
This last round I played was against a Nemesis on Rancid Abattoir, there were 2 people that got hooked at the same time, I mainly went to save them and both of them tried to kill themselves on first hook even though they were getting saved. One of their names I actually recognized because they are a serial give upper, every round I get with them they kill themselves on first hook.
THIS. BEHAVIOR. IS. GETTING. OLD. There needs to be a system in place to keep people from acting like this and the disconnect penalty needs to be harsher. Most games I play (at least with shorter matches) know the average amount of time that a match can play out and the base penalty is the length of the match. I feel like taking that into account and how most normal played matches are 10-ish minutes, that should be the minimum penalty. You want out so bad? Fine, have a 10 minute break. I also think for unhooking oneself, that needs to be limited to certain perks, the anti face camping feature, and if everyone else is either hooked, downed, or chased. If someone is available to come get you, they need to. Survivor is a team role with some solo elements. You should not have the option to self unhook if someone is perfectly available to come get you (or one of the other mentioned exceptions). Again, if you want out that bad, eat the penalty.
Comments
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when they fix the fundamental issues that drag the fun out of the game
or you could just ironically feel entitled yourself that your teammate needs to stay in the game with you even though someone else threw way before they decided to go next. That works too
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Making the penalties harsher or removing self-unhooks from the game won't solve the issue of people giving up. Instead, the developers should focus on understanding why so many players are leaving games and develop a solution that makes people want to stay. While some players may give up for no reason, most of those who leave do so (in my games) because they believe the game is unwinnable or they are getting tunneled or camped. They will leave if the game is not enjoyable to play. No number of penalties will fix the problem.
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Tbh - we or developers can't do anything about it, unless their experience and moral will be higher\better.
"Survive as a team… Or not." - this feature regardless of what you think is - advocating such unsportsmanlike conduct such as DC. (I don't care about the team - I'm not a team-player - so I'm out guys - bye-bye!) - sort of thing.
Harsher penalties are just going to scare away players… If only DBD was an actual Team-based game for survivors - then you can make harsher penalties.
But until then - the only thing is - make soloq experience more enjoyable\bearable\fair.
DC isn't an issue - it's a consequence of the real issues with the game.
It can be reasonable (emergency irl) and also unreasonable (such as hating particular killer\getting downed faster than expected)
Players just need to be more thick-skinned, and don't treat the game like their life depends on it, or like they're obligated to win all the time. Especially in soloq.
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No solo queue player believes they should win all the time. But surely you don’t believe losing 8/10 games is something any gamer should “just accept.” Right?
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I agree there are usually valid reasons. People forget we can see you while we are hooked. If your hiding in a corner and three books in pointless, some actually see working with the killer and nothing is ever done about it, locker hiders, someone doing invocation while two are hung and one is chased, camping and tunneling, sometimes people just need to go.
I have seen killers quit at 2 gens or endgame because they didn't hook anyone or get a kill and that is at least twice a day.
Problem is player behavior and the sense of entitlement. Just because a game isn't going the way you want it to the player just quits. I think that with all the changes and slugging taking a front seat more players are less tolerant or have moved on. I don't even think matchmaking is on point anymore with lack of players. The changes they are making doesn't really fit in the majority of players and people just are not having fun except top tier players.
Right now between the hit boxes being incredibly broken and distortion nerf the game is nearly unplayable at least on console and that believe it or not is a huge amount of players.
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Had a discussion about this in a different thread. I'll sum up what I said there: the problem is that the game places too much emphasis on escape. The more emphasis placed on escape, the more likely someone is to give up the moment they think it's not in their future. The game doesn't do a good job of rewarding participation or helping your team. If the player thinks they're going to help their team survive only to be left behind, they'd often rather just leave now rather than later. In this game, the big difference between dying early and dying later is how frustrating it feels to die later, getting all that way into a match and then not reaping the reward. Because escape is highly rewarded.
The game feels punishing to a lot of people. They get discouraged. Punishing them more is going to lead to more obstinate behavior. People who behave poorly in ideal situations may require punishment to adjust their behavior. Punishing people who are already in a negative situation is not going to lead to a positive outcome.
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I disagree because there a lot of killers quitting too. With them putting data out like they do they basically said if your not in a SWF your going to lose. Killers are going to win. They post kill rates and yes every killer gets 60% or higher so again discouraging. They need to further explain that kill rates are 1 kill or higher. There are some hard pressed killers that strive for the 4K not realizing a 1K is a win. About 90% of all killers tunnel, camp, or slug. When a player is forced in this situation they don't want to continue.
Also to back up your comment a survivor will get more points for running a killer rather than unhooking, healing, and doing gens. So if you die in game and ran the killer you get more points than actual objectives. Then there is the hider that did nothing and pulls the gate and escapes they get more points too.
Also subtle hacks are more and more. There is a multitude of reasons why. I just feel the game itself is not in a healthy state and players are mostly to blame but when it comes down to a lesser player count the are going to let players do what they want.
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If you are losing 8 games out of 10 - your MMR will be so low that you are going to be matched with VERY unexperienced killers and escaping the same amount until you reach "YOUR mmr cap".
With 60-64% killer "win-rate" - it suppose to be 6 out of 10.
I hate the sentence: "Skill issue" - but if you dying more than 6 out of 10 games all the time - you either on much higher MMR than you supposed to be, you just playing bad\making a lot of mistakes, or killers (somehow\unlikely) tunneling exactly YOU all the time…
I can assure by my experience with soloq - MMR system is working. If I got killed in 4 matches in a row (doesn't matter how) - my next 2 or 3 matches I'm usually escaping because I get matched with "not really" experienced killers. Which is almost the exact 60-64% of the opposing side "win-rate".
A lot depends on the player's skill, and honestly… Luck. When it comes to soloq.
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there’s a thread about this virtually every day now. Can we please start looking to see if there is a thread already existing before creating a new one ? It’s getting equally as tedious as the people giving up.
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I disagree because there a lot of killers quitting too.
Must be a region or MMR thing. I very rarely experience this. Survivors quitting is common, though.
there is the hider that did nothing and pulls the gate and escapes they get more points too.
This is behavior I see a lot and it's a big reason I play DbD less. Matches aren't worth playing out if someone's not participating, and it's frustrating how much they're rewarded for not participating with that big escape reward. Which is part of why I believe escape is way too highly rewarded.
the game itself is not in a healthy state and players are mostly to blame
Players play how the game directs/allows them. Part of game design is watching how players behave and adjusting the game accordingly. Easier in a PvE game than PvP, I'm sure, but still necessary. Risk is the fun part of a video game, for instance, but if it's not highly incentivized then many players will take the safer route. The game designers have to prevent that or at least make playing safe much less rewarding. Like hiding while their three teammates die and waiting for the hatch: this shouldn't be possible much less rewarded. BHVR needs to decide if this is a 1v4 or a 1v1v1v1v1 and design accordingly, because it can't be both and be fun for the majority. But maybe that's off-topic.
In general, all players need to feel like a match is worth playing out even if a personal win isn't guaranteed. This game does a poor job of that. Bloodpoints are part of it but not the whole story. For example, being a hero and giving your own life to save someone in the end game collapse, the game still only says "SACRIFICED" on the end screen and you sacrificed emblem points, Bloodpoints, MMR, and your win condition for someone else. Die early doing nothing or die later having been an awesome teammate, the game treats it all the same, and Bloodpoints might be a motivator for some but they're not for everyone.
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I don't think it's a balance issue, for the most part the game is at it's most balanced it's ever been. So it's either a fundamental issue of the game or a behavioural one. I'll choose the latter since I personally think so, for every person that kills themselves on hook or dc's for justified reasons there's at least 8 more that'll just give up for the most inane reason and that isn't from balance, that's just entitlement. I'm still of the opinion that a low-priority queue would solve a lot of problems with people giving up too early. People who engage in that kind of behaviour regularly can go play in low-priority queue with others that are just like them. They'll quickly realize their ways and stop that, or they'll be banished there for a good while. Either way, win/win for the rest of us.
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Maybe if the focus was not set on kills and personal escapes, some of these will not feel as easily discouraged.
- Killers should go for hooks.
- Survivors should go for most escapes. (If even that. A successful chase or successfully hiding should be rewarded.)
But I don't believe that's the majority.
Maybe also if map offerings were removed; because I've seen people dropping from a map if their offering didn't work.
Another point against offerings is that most of the time, the first one to give up is the one who has brought the offering and still couldn't last in a chase.
The first one to give up is also often the highest prestige. (I blame misplaced ego.) These deserve to lose more.
That's just from the top of my head.
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It also doesn't help that 9-10 games a killer tunnels 1 player out in the first few minutes. 4 hooks with 1 player dead is a huge issue as 4 gens left. No amount of anti tunnel will really help with maps getting smaller, loop nerfs, bad tiles taking up 60% of a map (sometimes even a hole side is a deadzone), and killers still having bloodlust 2-3 making getting to a new loop pointless as its a 10 second run away. And before saying just run gens that doesn't work in SoloQ as 1 player will and the other 2 get off them to unhook ASAP.
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Ah ok, the first sign of adversity and the survivor suicides. Grow a pair
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Tbh with the De-sync in the servers lately im not surprised people are giving up more.
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Except removing selfunhook suicide will somewhat help against Survivors being able to dodge the DC penalty and ruin matches that just started for other Survivors and instantly requeue in a match without consequences. Imagine if Killers found a way to quit the match and dodge the DC penalty matches would enMASS be unfinished and ended prematurely but no killers have to either eat the DC or afk wait for the doors to opens.
i dont agree with making the penaltys harsher were just asking for the same to apply to survivors or spawn a Bot if someone gives up on hook or some kinda solution
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Amma keep it real simple, 6.1 to this recent patch is the reason. Pretty positive people know what those reasons are. Also for the love of god please stop thinking its only solo que who is suffering, casual swfs also is suffering, one of them major thing is as example use to have 50+ friends to always swf up with but being down to 2 to 0 because everyone has moved on to other games, I tell you if I was not such a sucker for glams and things in these rifts pass I would be long gone. The riff pass keep holding me back.
Post edited by buggybug on10 -
And what are the fundamental issues that cause players to DC?
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Whenever BHVR wakes up, removes flawed MMR that doesn't measure skill (ie. Camping and Tunneling), and removes the tremendous snowball potential for killer. Survivors have no comeback mechanic/skills like killers do. Every match is fair game for killer, with at least a few kills minimum. If survivors can't finish a couple gens before the first hook, it is almost certainly game over. Which is a very flawed game design/balance. Survivors have learned they can't come back hence self sacrifices on the regular basis every other match. Killer priority balancing have ruined fair balance.
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Id say the game is far from the most balanced it's ever been, but if it is. The only way that can be considered true is that they just chaotically put everyone into an equally unfun and messy playground. Balanced, sure if you use the right scale. In reality though that's just not the case. The game's just in an awkward spot right now where it cant decide what it's trying to be anymore.
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Why is it that games like DotA can force people to play out a match even if it isn't "fun" because their teammates are bad, and those games can last over an hour, but someone who plays DBD feels entitled enough that they can't sit through 8 minutes of not having fun in those scenarios?
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Also very true. If a game early on snowballs in the killers favor. Comebacks are possible, but often times are an intense uphill battle. Its hard to make a survivor justify that experience being worth it when they can just quickly find a more casual match. Most survivors are ok with losing as long as a match seems winnable. But when a guy gets put on second and there are still 4 or 5 gens left or just gets completely tunneled out, the game's outcome is pretty easy to predict. Its basically a guaranteed long match if the killer can get two hooks before the first gen's completed. SWF's snowballing's not as big an issue. Ive found that even when we are oppressed heavily on early game that comebacks are pretty reasonable. SoloQ on the other hand is the complete opposite to where its nearly impossible.
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Or overwatch. Or rainbow six. Both these games have insane penalty up to a season and full on perm bans if you just afk or grief.
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Nice reverse psychology. It's the ones giving up at the drop of a hat that are entitled.
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Killer mains always say the game is the most balanced it has ever been. Explain how 60% kill rate to 40% escape rate is balanced please.
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The thing is your logic doesnt really work because even if you are getting matched with worse and worse killers you are also getting matched with worse teammates as well. This is assuming mmr is even working, the quality of the killers and teammates I am matched with seem to depend more on what time of day I am playing then whether I have been on a winning or losing streak.
Post edited by doobiedo on5 -
Yep. The DC penalty needs to be harsher, or constant DCers need to be put in their own queue, just like hackers should be. And also we can start... not rewarding this mentality? That seems to be what BHVR's done over the years. When enough people DC vs Freddy, Spirit, Skull Merchant, they just get nerfed, with no logical argument behind it other than "Me no like this killer! Me DC!" and then Mommy BHVR coming in saying, "Oh, you poor precious child! Let me fix that for you!" So people are gonna keep DCing, until BHVR wakes up and stops rewarding it. Even the most weak-willed among us are smart enough to see, "If I just give up constantly, then soon that killer will be nerfed, and then I don't have to improve anymore to beat them." Beating Freddy required pressure. Spirit, mindgames. Skull Merchant, strategy. Apparently players shouldn't have to learn any of this, and still be able to beat experienced people who play these killers. That's what the "mass DC = nerf" strategy means.
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This is extremely true. They either DC, hookacide, or run to the killer. I was playing with a squad of 3 and as soon as their teammate went down the ask DC'd. Luckily the killer let me live. But in that case they literally did nothing wrong.
I have seen this as a killer as well. If that happens I let the last one live.
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I'd say about 65% of my games have someone giving up on first hook. It's ridiculous
Hopped on to play 4 games of Larry.
Same survivor gave up in 2 games straight away, 2 disconnected, and another gave up on first hook. There needs to be some detection system for this bs
Post edited by Botiz on6 -
Because they getting handhold for soon to be 3 years now ofc its balance in their rule books for survivors.
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The argument is that the players giving up didn't find those killers fun. It's the same reason a business would change the music playing in a store if customers were saying they didn't want to come into the store because of the music. It's the reality of a live service game. Players have a large say in the continued development.
Nobody is coming home from work and loading up DbD just to quit games for 2 hours as part of some show of solidarity with fellow DbD players. I struggle to believe that players are that terminally online across all player demographics and regions.
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that's right, I stayed in this game because the last 2 rift pass had good cosmetics xD.
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Same, I'm turbo grinding through the rift and soon to be event so I can put the game away for another couple months. Every update is the same trend.
Chases? Worse
Maps? Worse
Friends who still play the game? Fewer
Solo queue? New circles of hell
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Escape rate is even lower which is the worst part. I want to see the escape rate with dc games NOT thrown out. Isn't that why bots were added?
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I thought bots were added to give the killers their 4Ks.
Dcs used to drop the players body on the floor so people would dc to deny an ebony mori, slug for the 4k etc. Dcing used to deny the points and satisfaction from the killer. There used to be tonnes of posts about it and then bots were added.
They simultaneously added bots so both sides wouldn't be disadvantaged while allowing survivors to hook suicide denying a bot to take its place. Amazing thought process lol. This also explains why I said they were added for killers benefit and not survivors.
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That's what it was designed to be. It's an asym horror game; as a survivor, death is supposed to be the more likely outcome, like in a horror movie (whether it's actually scary or not isn't relevant). Not so likely that it's oppressive, but certainly not a 50/50 coin flip. Escape is meant to be an accomplishment.
Balance is a relative term, and 60/40 is what the devs are going for, to keep in the spirit of the game. Relatively speaking, DBD is closer to balance than it ever has been. But perfect balance isn't as was never the goal. I mean it's an RNG dependent 4v1, for god's sake.
I'm not sure why so many people have a hard time wrapping their brain around this.
If people want a nice evenly balanced competitive experience, they are looking in the wrong place for it. That isn't what DbD is, or was ever intended to be (or likely ever will be).
I play mostly survivor at this point (probably like 60/40 over the past year), and I am fine with it, because it's what the game is supposed to me. If I wasn't, I'd go play something else.
And frankly, anyone stressed out and wringing their hands over the fact it's not 50/50 should probably just move on.
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I lose about 70% maybe 80% of my games, and I'm often fine with it. Why? Cause it's a team game for survivors, and someone often has to die to win.
The main reason I die so often, is I'm one of the few players with the stones to do what needs to be done to get that damn gate powered. The gates are powered in about 50% of my games, varying escapes, but it's rare I'm one who actually makes it, because at any moment a coward/idiot will often create a scenario where someone has to die for survivors to win... and most players fail to recognise that/take that course of action.
This is your fate when you're the smartest guy in the room... You're the only one who understands what must be done to win, and that often leads to you having to die for the rest of the team to get out...
So I personally lose 70 maybe even 80% of the time... but a fellow survivor or more gets out 50% of the time.
Also I wouldn't die as often if survivors would stop leaving games for stupid reasons... but hey ho. 😒😒😒😒
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THIS! Because my games have been ridiculous, I feel like all the killers are competing for a cash prize for the fastest 4k while I'm literally just trying to get some BPs and not be tunneled or bleed on the floor for 4 minutes because the killer can't bare the thought of not 4king. If it's not killers is survivor's doing the most stupid things and wondering why I'm done when I'm the only one working towards to objective while they do totems and chests. I'm REALLY burnt out.
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This, people say ‘oh it’s just a casual party game’ and ‘we’re just having fun with friends’ but then complain about wanting a forced 50% win rate no matter how bad they play and that not winning isn’t fun so they ‘go next’ not realising that’s an inherently competitive mindset. It’s all these sweaty killers fault lol. And complaining about tunnelling throwing arbitrary numbers of killers who do it around, while quitting at first down before there’s any chance for the killer to not do that. There’s arguments for some sort of snowball mechanic now so if they’re playing bad the game will help them turn it around into a win with no skill on their part like the new 2v8 changes. Crazy.
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use to have 50+ friends to always swf up with but being down to 2 to 0 because everyone has moved on to other games
Same situation as me. I use to have a group of 10 friends to SWF with, nowadays only 3 of them still play…
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Exactly like being slugged on the floor as the third person to look for fourth and no point in dc because they get a bot now.
I much rather give the last person an oppertunity to get a shot at hatch its pathetic and I personally wants bots gone. Bots are just free bp and adepts for killer
A 3 v 1 is hard but not impossible yesterday a laurie vote leries and kamikaze on her first hook vs a plague leaving me and 2 swfs and we got 4 out 5 gens done and one survive via hatch.
Post edited by buggybug on3 -
I would be a good idea to put stop to this.
Removing self-unhook unless Perks and special hopeless circumstances, you know like Last Man Standing from the Original Finisher Mori update.
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I agree with what @TragicSolitude is saying, that the game places too much emphasis on escaping and there's not enough reward for giving it your all even when the match goes south. Killers giving up is far less common (and not even the topic of this thread, so I don't know why it's being brought up). Even when Killers lose, they still earn much better rewards. Look at this screenshot of mine, for example. I wasn't even playing seriously, I only decided to kill the one Survivor who was a bot, and I still got more BP than any of them.
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I love seeing this argument when if it's used in any other context around the game you'll be told "lol DBD isn't a horror game after the first 4 hours".
Stealth play being nonexistent, maps being overly bright, atmospheric lighting gone, fog gone, goofy cosmetics being added. For all these things the game isn't "horror", but when it comes to the core balance of the game suddenly "muh horror experience" matters over everything else.
As if a team watching Blight tunnel someone out at 4 gens on a reworked map with 3 pallets to secure their 401st win in a row thinks to themselves "wow this is such an immersive horror simulation!".
I'm ready for the next pvp star wars game where the devs make the good guys team win because that's what happens in the movies.
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Yes Daniel, let me stay in this match where I'm on hook and I can see my teams' auras and realize no one is trying to progress the match. Sorry that you can't quickly process the match information available to you to realize the match that took you 4/5 minutes to get into is already over.
Let me linger a bit longer with 1 teammate dead at 4 gens. Are there some games where we can bounce back? Definitely, but they are not the norm. Please elaborate on why you think players should stay in pointless matches? To play for hatch? No thanks
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Good guys also win in horror shows because some actually dont run, they whop their predators ass and get justice for their fallen friends and families. Heck as another person suggest in a topic I would love a finisher as survivor
4s means survivors should be able to tag team the killer as a finisher like knights mori or the entity should kill the killer for failing their mission like how leaders of villians do in other games, animes and rl movies punish the one failing their misson.
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The answer i always get when i ask the question is.
"because DBD is asymmetrical"
But nobody has ever been able to answer me, what about asymmetrical games is so special that this basic idea doesn't work?
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Game emphasizes escapes and kills as "winning" nothing else matters
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If nothing else matters, then survivors are going to keep quitting the moment they think they're not escaping because what's the point if that's the only thing that matters. So, I mean, that's fine, just… people need to understand the game's design encourages players to give up, so we should accept that part of winning is destroying the resolve of your opponents: you win because they stop fighting. Rather than a standard PvP game, DbD is teaching The Art of War.
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