Anti-Camp measure deserves a full-on rework because it's done horribly
Anti-Camp measure is something we not always had in the game. It's a nice balance addition, when it works, it can save lives. HOWEVER, it only works when the killer stands right in front of your face for a good time, which is, pretty much never. This allows killers to proxy-camp survivors without getting punished for it in anyway, and instead, rewards them. I had a match vs a Spirit who was objectively bad in chases and was learning her playstyle recently, that was obvious. Whenever they got to down someone, they proxy camped them until they reached 2nd hook, this allowed them to get a 4K then harass & intimidate everyone in the EGC. Not specific to this scenario, but lots of other killers benefit from proxy camping while the anti camp measure doesn't do anything to it either, Huntress can stay a bit far, readying her hatchet to insta hit if there's a save. Billy can ready his chainsaw at the same way, Trickster, Nurse on and on. It needs an urgent rework. Mind you during this screenshot, I chased Spirit for three gens. After I got unhooked they managed to end the game with the same amount of gens remaining, thanks to proxy camping.
Comments
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The system was designed to handle killers facecamping. It is not meant to punish killers pressuring hooks from a distance.
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And they found a way around it to camp while not getting punished, next question?
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Camping is a strat. The devs have said this OVER and over. Its literally for face camping or within 16 meters of its radius the bar moves up. What more do you want? Honestly..
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I main nurse and vecna. I think I'd know killer strats by now, I'm not saying it's not a strat I'm saying there's a loop hole to the mechanic thats supposed to be anti camp but still lets you camp someone
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Counter camping by sitting on gens - just do gens, bhvr made hook stages 70 seconds
longerto help you with this. (edit, not longer, just 70 secs)Why after you were the first hook at 2 gens left, did none of your teammates just sit on a gen and let you rot on hook?
This isn't an issue with anti-facecamp but with your teammates being terrible (and also a little lacking info in solo queue). At least one survivor should be on a gen in this scenario.
If anything, I think anti-camp is too strong but all survivors should see your anti-camp progress.
Some killers can counter anti-camp in silly ways, but I think the move isn't to buff anti-camp but to nerf certain killer powers being too strong in unhook scenarios like huntress having insane cooldowns or dracula double hitting with hellfire.
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There is no loophole….Its actually very simple. You cannot camp anyone within 16 meters or the survivor pops off the hook. Period. We don't need further modifications made to this or at least not in the direction you are suggesting. If the killer chooses to camp, so be it. Survivors should be knocking gens out. Not to mention when perks like reassurance or steves perk exists to buy you more time on the hook, in addition to the extra 10 seconds Survivors just got.
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proxycamping isnt facecamping and so does not need to be punished.
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There is one slight thing you all are missing. Anti face camp mechanic isn't for "facecamping" bhvr never once stated it's to combat facecamp. It just progresses faster when you're being facecamped, that doesn't make it what you guys are calling. It's a measure to combat strict & malicious camping in general. Certain killers benefit even more from this like huntress, spirit, billy etc. with other killers still benefiting greatly from this loophole of ACM. This was never what the mechanic was intended for lol sometimes when you're hooked on basement and the killer is sitting right at the gate of the shack it doesn't even progress by a pinch, it's a flawed system, and it needs to change.
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BHVR has, as far as I recall, always specified it as anti-facecamping.
Quoted from the developer update:
Anti Face-camping
Anti Face-camping is here- and so is the Killer. This mechanic aims to provide Survivors with counterplay for some of the most egregious cases of camping
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One patch note vs multiple times of them adressing it as anti camp measure?
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I'd kind of like to know where this strange idea came from that survs should be able to have a completely safe unhook and killers are not allowed to be in the same time zone as the person they hooked.
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Well, I stand corrected, yet that doesn't mean there isn't any room for improvements. The current measure is unhealthy & needs to go. I'm saying this as a killer main that also benefits from proxy camping to turn games where i'm losing around.
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"There is one slight thing you all are missing. Anti face camp mechanic isn't for "facecamping" bhvr never once stated it's to combat facecamp."
This has to be satire…..
Your logic seems flawed a bit. If someone is hooked in the basement. The gate is outside of shack and the meter is barely going up, that means the killer is just within 16 meters away. They are not even in the basement…All of this sounds like a flaw on the skill of the survivor. The mechanic is doing exactly what it should be doing.
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Oh because a killer, lets say bubba standing right at the shack gate definitely isn't camping and there is room for others to save!!
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Anti-face Camp doesn't do squat either. Killer save more time triggering the mechanic and downing after Endurance is gone. Most Killer roster don't care about it.
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Spending the entire match around hooks because you got bodied during chase is a bit unfair, no?
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Yes, it's a flawed system in all aspects. Could use a change
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And? What are the odds you are going to get bubba…and be hooked in the basement, by an exit gate…Yet you want to blame the Anti FACE CAMPING mechanic. Mind blowing. Truly.
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Howdy, and welcome to DBD! This is a common misconception among the newer crowd, so no worries. There actually is no anti camping feature in the game. What you're talking about is probably the anti-facecamping feature which is working as intended and surprisingly well. Out of the hundreds of matches I've played since it's recent inception , I've only seen a single survivor facecamped.
Bear in mind, killers protecting hooks is 100% part of their goals and is simply part of how the game works. Anti facecamping being implemented was mostly just added to stop killers with one shot abilities from making rescues impossible (looking at you, Bubba). Killers are definitely designed in a way where protecting hooks is an important part of their toolbox. They have to decide between protecting gens, or risking zero gen pressure in favor of protecting the hook. It's a big risk vs reward, as zero gen pressure can be easily punished by the survivors slamming out gens. In fact, the devs even added 10 seconds to hook state time to give survivors even more time to punish the risk vs reward play by the killer. If the killer is protecting a hook, they are likely in hot water if the survivors play their cards right.
Anyway, welcome aboard, and i hope you have a better understanding of this mechanic.
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You're the one supposed to punish the killer for camping, not the game.
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well it was never an anti camp measure so you're wrong .
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Buffing the anti FACE camp feature isn't the solution and just opens it up for scenarios that unfairly punish the killer. The way hooks/hookstates work needs changed entirely so they aren't ever needed.
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You’re completely missing the point entirely so let me run it back for you. The Anti FACE Camp meter is to prevent FACE camping. The Devs have stated numerous times they think camping is a valid and fair strategy and are 100% fine with it.
Removing the ability to face camp gives survivors a slightly better chance to get the unhook, although not much better. That was the point of it.6 -
I wouldn’t waste your time running back with them. It goes right over there head. They don’t see logic.
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You're right it's a flawed system, it should be weaker especially after hook stages were made 10 seconds longer, and shouldn't exist in the 2v1 scenario.
Look again at your spirit game - camping lets your teammates complete the gens for free. It's also a spirit, so if you want to unhook one of your teammates (say Sable) can safely run up and trade just before 2nd stage. If the spirit downs the unhooker after unhook you get 10 seconds of 10% haste and endurance to make it at least somewhere which is more time waste while the 3rd survivor (say Zarina) picks up Sable while the 4th (say Mikaela) gets more free gen time.
If the killer instead hits your endurance directly off hook, you get a speed boost to somewhere and so the spirit either commits to you which is even more free gen time for everyone else even if you get double tapped (yay!) or the spirit switches to Sable which makes getting her tunnel out harder and wastes the 70 seconds spent camping you (double yay!!!).
I've literally versed a camping spirit with pain res DMS ruin in solo queue - they camped so they got zero perk value and we 2 or 3 outed. Either way - camping gives so much gen time so just do gens.
This is untrue. The presence of anti-face camp cannot save the killer time unless the survivors are bad or are solo queue players suffering from a lack of info. If the killer is face-camping, the survivor should wait until the very last second to self-unhook while their teammates slam gens. You're correct that the killer can wait or hit the endurance immediately (I've done this as killer in the 2v1), but that gives a lot of uninterrupted gen time to the survivors.
Killer camping is 70 seconds and the follow up is a minimum 10 seconds chase + carry time. which is extended by anti-tunnel like DS/UB, OTR, exhaustion perks (and blood rush), making it to literally any pallet or window, and even some spicy combos like plot twist flip flop power struggle.
Yes there are killers who are good at denying or just plain annoying with unhooks like huntress, clown, trickster, unknown, dracula, oni, and billy but a lot of them either suck (huntress, clown, trickster), need specific killer adjustments (nerfs in general or to unhooks) which anti-face camp changes wouldn't solve (unknown, dracula, billy), or already have limitations (oni).
Point being, don't buff anti-camp, buff the information available to solo queue players. Let all survivors see the anti-camp progress (including if it's ready) so survivors can get a vague sense of if the killer is nearby so they know whether to slam gens or get a free unhook.
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Everyone and their grandma knows this by now. That's exactly the problem with the anti-facecamp system, it only does something against facecamping and nothing against proxy camping, which is almost equally as skillless and unfun to go against.
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The devs stating that camping is a strat doesn't make it any more fun to go against. A strategy that unfun to go against for most people shouldn't be as strong as it is now, that is just not good game design if you as a dev care about your playerbase. Not to mention how little skill proxy camping takes compared to it's average effectiveness.
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That may be true - but it is what it is. That doesn’t mean the anti face camp design should be tweaked how the OG post was mentioning…
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their official patch note is not enough for you? their literal, official announcement introducing the mechanic?
oh brother, OP will accept nothing short of mindless agreement with him. This is not a discussion, this is just ignorance
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Say it with me: Anti-FACE-Camp.
This mechanic was never meant to combat proxy camping but stop killers from standing right next to the hook with the intention to make it impossible for survivors to unhook. That is a big difference.
You are arguing that the mechanic doesn't do what it's supposed to do but that is objectively wrong. It works perfectly fine. You don't see anymore face camping.
Whether or not proxy camping should be affected by this mechanic is a separate discussion. I don't think we need any more changes to camping as a whole but maybe specific killers (Myers, Bubba, Billy, Oni) should be looked at.
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I don't think i saw anyone mention this here, but it intentionally turns off once the generators are repaired and the gates are powered, which re-itterates the fact that camping is considered valid, and by the end of the match face camping is encouraged and the only expected thing of the killer when they have a hooked survivor in the end-game.
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Everybody with a single brain cell knew that killers would learn how to proxy camp effectively once they introduced the anti-camp mechanic
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I believe OP never said that the anti-facecamp system isn't working as intended, but rather that it just doesn't do anything in most cases because killers just proxy camp.
That's the problem. The fact that it is only an anti-facecamp system and not a proper anti-camp system is exactly the problem. Being proxy camped is hardly any more fun than being facecamp, and a game like DBD should strive to be fun for both sides as much as possible. Which it isn't considering how strong proxy camping is in this game.
So you arguing that it's just an anti-facecamp system does nothing, since that's the exact problem with this system.
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Except there's nothing wrong with proxy camping. That's like getting upset that killers ACTUALLY hook survivors. "We have a hook problem. The system in place to stop killers from hooking survivors isn't working."
No one is discussing the validity of it because it's not valid. Protecting hooks is literally one of the secondary goals of the killer. Primary is survivor elimination/chases. Secondaries are gen defense and protecting hooks/securing hook states.
You're acting like killers should just hook and then run miles away and allowing survivors to safely unhook and heal up without any risk.
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That's called "pressuring hooks". It's not camping.
The AFC is meant as anti FACE camp, not anticamp… because there are strategic reasons to "camp" a hook like that, because as the devs have said, camping is valid. The devs have all but said guarding hooks, proxying hooks, defending hooks IS VALID INTENDED GAMEPLAY. And yet, we still have people who think Killers MUST be 20 zipcodes and five days away from hooks before it is no longer "camping".
Time to admit it, long past time. Being near hooks, leaving people down for split seconds, and chasing weak links are ALL valid strats. There is no such thing as a true facecamp, a true tunnel, or a true slug anymore; the Devs have continued to work to remove those. All that really remains now, are tactics. If you cannot play around these valid tactics, it's a skill issue. Time for the Survivor players to actually learn the game the way Killers had to for some 7 years, playing around all the crap Survivors had until very recently. It's REALLY long past time.
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Entitlement. It comes from entitlement.
You see, hardcore Survivor Mains are still smarting from the fact several broken, skilless aspects of some of their perks got nerfed recently, as well as the fact maps were made more fair (less Survivor-sided overall) and many Killers got much needed updates so the Devs could design new, fun perks for Survivors AND Killers without destroying the weaker half of the roster. This has been happening for about a year and a half now, and unlike Killers who lived for 7 years with this sort of thing happening Survivors aren't used to it.
So now, they come here to whine and complain about mechanics added to the game to help them not get actually, legitimately griefed because they still somehow believe that they deserve easier wins on everyone, since the Devs have handheld and coddled them for 7 years until actual rational people stepped in and said "hey, we should actually balance this HORROR THEMED GAME in favor of KIllers a bit, shouldn't we?"
Then whenever someone who plays Killer, any amount of Killer, calls them out on their entitlement, they all get angry and deflect the idea that "Killers all just wanna win they always play so serious Killers are no fun." Uh no… look in the mirror. Most Killers are fine with a mix of results. Most Killers play for fun.
It's Survivors who are always playing like they're so desperate to win. Almost all of the time. And then they like to deflect that back on Killer players.
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I believe that it is doing the job it’s supposed to do, a.k.a. preventing facecamping.
But, the progress of it should be visible on the HUD. That is the only change I would do to it.
Oh, and also create a perk or two that fiddle with it, for example increasing the range and speed of it.
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Completely false. No one gets upset about killers hooking survivors, that's their objective to win. That comparison of yours doesn't even make the tiniest amount of sense.
It's the fact that as a survivor it's insanely unfun to just stare at a hook for 140 seconds. That's the problem. It's just not fun. If killers play normally, then matches are generally also fun for survivors, but going against a camping killer is not fun what so ever, at least to most people. Again, in a pvp game like DBD, a strategy that is so unfun to go against shouldn't be as strong as camping currently is.
Also, no one is acting like a killer should immediately leave the hook and run miles away, searching close to a hooked survivor after hooking them for example is completely fair. It's when the killer decides to just proxy camp the survivor for the entire time where things get incredibly unfun. You trying to misrepresent my argument in order to ridicule it is pretty laughable.
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It's not entitlement. Wanting to have fun in a game like DBD is not entitlement. The simple fact is that camping is incredibly unfun to go against for most people. And strategies as unfun as camping shouldn't be as effective as camping currently is. It's not even necessarily about balance, but about the enjoyment factor of DBD. No idea how one would see entitlement in that.
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They don't do it because they want to have fun. They do it because they want to win, because they feel they deserve to win.
I know because I used to be a Survivor like this. It 100% is entitlement… entitlement to win without ever having the risk of a loss or being "out" in the tag game.
If you really are that "bored" by occasionally being out while your friends try to come save then maybe DBD isn't the game for you.
Also, I wasn't talking to you. Don't ping me me again, I am not interested in arguing and you will not change my mind.
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I mean, the developers\designers of the game disagree with you - I'd say they have the final say on what's intended or not. They balanced the game around the expectation of killers who protect hooks - otherwise they'd implement something that guarantees killers can't protect them (much like how Pyramid cages work, I'd imagine). If they guarantee survivors get 100% risk-free and safe unhooks as you're demanding, then killers would need a very significant buff to compensate.
You say the survivors are stuck on a hook - that's not fun. Well, survivors are just hold down a button for 90 seconds on a gen - that's not fun, either. The M1 killer getting looped from jungle gym to jungle gym and that survivor having a multitude of second chance perks when they finally get downed which prevents the killer from hooking after that long chase - that's not fun for the killer. Killers getting flashlight blinded - that's not fun for the killers. There's a lot of "not fun" things in the game.
How exactly would you make being hooked "fun"? I mean heck, if the penalty for failure is fun, more people would just rush in and getting hooked so they can have that "fun". Someone sitting on hook with the killer miles away and a survivor coming over to unhook them….not even THAT is fun for the survivor. Your solution is that anything "not fun" should be removed from the game. What is your vision for this "everything is fun" game? I'm sure the BHVR team would certainly love to take notes on that.
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I kinda understand this post but there are more problems with this mechanic. First it is granting so few value when killer is about 12m next to hook that it doesnt give enough juice to self unhook in time. Camping is not really a healthy or fun playstyle for either side and is mostly caused by killer chasing specific survivor for too long without abandoning chase or by tunneling a single survivor and then facecamp at EGC to get second kill. In solo this is still very viable strategy because you can not tell your temmate what is happening unless you have kindred on, even then you can not force them to spend time on gens and not wasting time going for save and trade 1 for 1 without anyone doing gen. This is more of a problem on specific killers - Bubba, Trickster, Billy, Huntress (mainly), because they have tool to not only camp for trades but to guarantee a down on unhooker and down on the unhooked survivor. Personally I do not camp as killer, when I am force to get rid of someone ASAP becase of gens go fast, then i go for 2 players and ignore other two. Proxycamping and tunneling is a main strategy in comp DBD and most of time you will see killers going for basement and other teammates letting him die for doing a few gens meanwhile. I would like to see more incentive for not camping and not tunneling, by far I know that any BP incentive is irrelevant because a competitive player cares about win, not points. And either one or second side can win at a time, otherwise the game would not be balanced.
Possible solutions:
- Make it that when a surivor is hooked all other survivors have 5-10 % repair penalty if killer is further than 24m from the hook.
- Make it that if the survivor is unhooked in killer TR the base BT lasts longer or that when killer is within 24m range the survivor on the hook dies 25 % slower.
- I would love to see kindred basekit personally and also I would love people to play more strategically around hooks. When the hook stage lasts for 70s you do not have to go save within first 10s when the killer is closeby, but finish gen and then go for the save.
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But they're not FACECAMPING.
The point of the system was to dissuade the fact that killers could stand right in front of a survivor and always either deny the unhook, or tunnel and beat down the unhooked player in seconds assuming the killer doesnt go for a trade instead. Thus was always a lose for survivors unless the other 3 survivors worked together for the save… which means no one is on gens. Because of this, it was often a problem that someone would get hooked after the first chace and basically be forced to do nothing for 140 seconds.
The Anticamp mechanic counters this by allowing you to free yourself at any point once it's full, letting you jump the hook and have a chance at running the killer more, not only letting you play the game but also buying more time for the other survivors when used smartly, enough so that it was possible for a facecamped survivor to still escape a match if played well.
Proxy camping does not suffer this issue. 2 survivors is enough to save, sometimes not even if the 1 survivor sneaks in for it. Gens are being progress still, you aren't left on the hook (unless its your teammates being stupid instead of the killer) and can still play the game. Theres still counterplay to be done, like the saviour taking the hit for you, or even perhaps going down in your place. It is not an issue of what the killer does at that point, but what your team does.
/thread
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I think it's well made as is.
As I always say, you have to look at the whole thing from both sides. And it's just part of it that it can be a strategy for the killer to zone the hook. There are also perks for survivors to counteract this.
However, there is one thing that I would adjust. The camping bar progress indicator should be displayed globally for each survivor. Here we are again at the difference between SWF and solo player. This gap should be closed and the killers should then be strengthened accordingly.
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I mostly disagree with this sentiment, because I do have some suggestions on how anti-camp could be improved. The mechanic was added only as a measure to deter FACE camping in the most extreme of cases. Think Bubba standing on top of a hooked survivor reving his chainsaw. These kinds of situations create lose/lose scenarios for the survivors, especially when hook grabs were still possible. Anti-camp’s purpose is to give the hooked survivor a way out when their teammates are unable to rescue them in the rare scenario that the killer has an insta-down ability and is standing directly in front of the hook. Proxy camping may be frustrating at times, but if that’s how the killer needs to apply pressure in that moment then your team needs to play strategically to get the survivor off the hook. Camping is a strategy, and sometimes one that hurts the killer in the long run. If you’re able to unhook your teammate even if that means trading, then that’s what you do.
I do, however, desperately want to see some UI improvements for the mechanic. If your teammates are near-by, even if they’re not in chase, it slows and or stops the anti-camp meter from filling up. If your teammates had the ability to see your meter progress this would prevent your teammates from pausing their objectives to go for the save which is detrimental to the outcome of the trial, making the feature actually useful.
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I hate that some survivors have taken bhvrs acknowledgement and solutions for actual problems and decided that means there should be no scenario where the killer has an advantage if they dont like it.
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We all hate that.
It really is time, 100%, to learn strategy now. They had 7 years to learn, none of you did, now they want the game to coddle you more.
BHVR's not gonna coddle people like this anymore. LEARN. Grow.
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It probably wouldnt hurt to slightly increase the rate that the bar fills when the killer is within 16 meters. Abusing the system to achieve the same result as an old facecamp is just a bad time for everyone. But, there should also be some sort of killer buff that rewards getting completely away from the hook. Think haste from devour hope but more restrictive, or something similar.
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Most people complain about camping because of how unfun it is to go against. Of course there are people that also complain about it because they feel it's overpowered or what not, but that's just a small minority, I am pretty sure.
Trying to make it look like entitlement won't help your argument in any way or form. People play a game for enjoyment, and not getting to play the game because of a camping killer is indeed something most players don't like, and of course that's not entitlement. As a dev you would want a game to be as fun as possible for players, and currently it isn't because strategies like camping and tunneling exist, that are unfun to go against, strong and also take very little skill.
I'm a killer main myself but can see why people hate camping and tunneling.
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