Can We Please Get a "Bleed Out" Option
I'm am so very tired of being left to bleed out on the ground while the Killer slugs the whole team or if it's just me and one other person. I just wish I could "bleed out" while left on the ground that way at least the other Survivor would have the chance to get Hatch or and I can move on to the next game.
Comments
-
"that way at least the other Survivor would have the chance to get Hatch "
Here's the problem with that. That's quite literally the reason you're getting slugged in that scenario. The killer is slugging to prevent that exact thing from happening. I'd say it would be better argued for a hatch rework or to simply bring an anti slug perk if it's happening that often.
If the chance at hatch involved some skill component or was earned I could see this, but it's not. It's just a freebie escape after losing..just..because.
It's current design is also what leads to the "two people left and we're just both not touching any objectives and hiding in the corner of the map or a locker" scenario because both of us want the escape. Which happens very, very often and the killer realistically has no counter play here. This hide and seek typically wastes more time than the entire rest of the actual match took.
This is why the core problem is the hatch, not slugging.
5 -
Totally agree, despite the Hatch as an escape being part of the problem, its not necessarily the reason or part of the solution.
There really is not need for a fancy solution to this problem, just a simple new mechanic.
- When only one Survivor other survivor is alive and you are downed, wait 30 seconds to speed bleed out and die.
Either way the random nature of the Hatch spawns will decide, its unacceptable to let the downed survivor be slugged for too long.
Its a question about moving the game along in a reasonable time for all individuals, its why I down and hook people usually right away, because I know how mentally not stimulating it is to be slugged for 240sec. Its a really negative experience, so can we please not?
7 -
I consider myself to be a "Killer Main", something like eighty to eighty-five percent of my games are on the Killer side because I HATE playing Survivor because of games like the ones I'm talking about.
I play Killer like I wish other people would play Killer and part of that includes not slugging to get a 4K when I've already got a 3K. By all metrics that really matter there is very little difference between a 3K and a 4K, both are a "win" in any sense of the word. Yes there are achievements that care about "Merciless Killer" but in the End Of Game screen if the Killer isn't running the set of three Perks then they just cared more about "winning more" than making a fun match.
The Hatch was put into place to prevent games going on forever, and right now with so many people slugging the second to last person games go on longer than they need to. If there was a mechanic in place that allowed Survivors to force the issue then Killer players would adapt. It should be done in a way that makes slugging still viable, like it needing you to be on the ground for half a minute like @Emeal was saying and then take another minute and a half to fully bleed out. This would just cut the time in half from what it currently is. Have it reset every time, so it's not a total of 30 seconds on the ground but 30 seconds from the time you've been on the ground this time. Make it so the Survivor has to be fully recovered to the 'Find Help' point as well, so it has to be an active choice they make and tie it to one of the Ability Buttons. This would give Killers time to go and find the other Survivor if they really want that 4K but also makes it so players are not forced to stay in a game they've already lost. It would also help, at least somewhat, to alleviate the frustration of going against a turboslug Killer if you can just leave early without DCing and not have to wait to bleed out.
As for a anti-slug Perks they all have their downsides, like they should. Unbreakable is only good once, Boon: Exponential can be snuffed while you're on the ground. They are valid gameplay choices and do help but we really do need something base game for this issue. We got Borrowed Time as base-kit and it really helped, it forced Killers to adapt and change their gameplay. We got anti-camp and it really helped direct face camping and made proxy camping the go-to. I AM NOT calling for base-kit Unbreakable, that was shut down for good reason. What I do want is just some means of moving on to the next game when it becomes obvious I'm going to be slugged for more than a minute and there's no hope of getting a reset.
Slugging is a viable bit of gameplay, but only at key times. Otherwise it's just "win more" in a way or, in the case of turboslugging, not intended gameplay since it bypasses Hooks altogether. And while being viable and not problematic in-and-of itself it is the next 'problem' on the list of things that need to be addressed for Solo Survivor gameplay now that the devs have touched on tunneling and camping. I personally think being able to bleed out faster is a good middle ground because it still gives the Killer a kill while allowing the Survivor player to move on to the next game and isn't as strong as a base-kit Unbreakable would be.
6 -
I still think once you're fully recovered you should be able to press the rush button to enter "Desperation" and: -
- Crawl 50% faster
- Make 50% louder grunts of pain
- Bleed out 75% faster
I also think a player in the dying state should be able to:
- Swap items on the floor and in chests
- Open chests at a 25% penalty
- Use a key to open a closed hatch
At least this gives something for the slugged player to actually TRY to escape, rather than just sit and wait to die. Also Temacity value.
6 -
The simplest solution is the best
Survivors can stand up after being slugged for 1 minute.
They also receives 10 seconds of haste & endurance.
This ability would probably be disabled during the end game collapse like the anti-facecamp thing
3 -
Almost, they can TRY to stand up with the risk of dying, just like hooks, 4% chance.
2 -
I lowkey support this idea on both sides. As Surv there is nothing worse than when I am downed as one of the last two, then the Killer cannot find me so I bleed out. As Killer, I hate losing slugs too, it's legitimately my nightmare scenario and it's happened way too many times. I'm a pretty nice Killer - I still like to give hatch even with the basekit Mori and I'm just not into slugging for anything more than quick pressure. Sometimes, I will down one of the two at the end then kill the other, but give the first person downed the Hatch as a sort of "sorry about that long slug but I wanted your friend more than you, here's the hatch/gate for your trouble". I actually don't enjoy slugging unless I absolutely need it for pressure, I WANT to spread my hooks due to my build and I hate it if I have to leave someone slugged and then they crawl away and I cannot find them, so we both waste 4 minutes at the end.
I would support this idea for the louder noises and faster bleedout alone, but the basekit Tenacity, being able to use keys, and being able to swap items is nice. Though I do think with this change, Tenacity itself would need something else - perhaps it reveals where exits and the hatch or chests or something like that are if you're Death Hook, Wounded, or last Survivor?
2 -
Ugh I absolutely hate losing slugs, I always feel so bad. alternatively there's also people that will hide intentionally while slugged when there's no chance anyone will get them up and after there's any benefit to waste the killers time. im not a big fan of these people, its comparable to intentionally bleeding a survivor out on the killer side.
4 -
I'm also sick of people who grief this way, wasting everyone's time. Like, you're dead on the ground, your friends are dead, you lost, please just let me end the round so we can all move on. I always crawl under a hook if I end up the slug in this situation, or at least crawl into an open area. I really don't wanna bleed out any more than I want YOU to sit there for four minutes and bleed out.
3 -
I'll slug for the 3k like that if a survivor sells out their teammates. Slug gets hatch, but that betrayal isn't going unpunished!
1 -
The only thing I do not agree with here is opening up chests while slugged. I get the idea behind it but think it'd be a little bit wonky. If the chest is already open then, yeah, swap items but if the chest is still locked you can't wiggle the lock to get it open.
Base-kit Unbreakable but better! No thanks. Base-kit Unbreakable was pushed hard against for a reason. Even just having one per trial for every Survivor is really strong and makes slugging as a stalling tactic not as viable. Sure they'll be down for a bit but a well timed Unbreakable is really strong and can punish a greedy slug. With it base-kit slugging wouldn't be a thing at all and that's not my goal. I agree that slugging is a needed part of the game and it has it's place in the meta, I just don't want turboslugs and second-to=last slugs to not waste as much time as they do.
Always annoying to lose that one slug you dropped because their other teammate was trying for a blind slash hook block instead of doing a gen or hiding so of course you go after them for that hook. I, too, want to give Hatch most time and I can't really do that if they crawl off into a corner to bleed out out of spite to "deny" me that hook.
As for Tenacity it could just stay mostly the same, allowing you to be a FAST slug if you're "Desperate". Maybe lower the volume of Grunts of Pain to 50% so it cancels out while Desperate but otherwise keep it the same. Borrowed Time only got changed to increase the base-kit time so Tenacity doesn't need much of a touchup.
2 -
I must apologise gents, but I am one of those people who slugs away… legit Tenacity is my favourite perk in the game because I just find it hilarious crawling off, looking back and seeing the killer searching for me in the distance 🤣
In fairness, while I will admit to a certain amount of spite, the real reason I do it is because I operate on a principle of "it ain't over 'til it's over". I crawl away, because I'm trying to give myself a chance at hatch... and while it is rare, I have actually managed to escape crawling through gate and and hatch this way on occasion. 😁
However if the killer finds it first, then it's more a case of, damn... oh well... now it's a game of hide and seek. Really it's just a case of keeping myself amused while I bleed out. You're 0.7 while crawling, so if you have crawled away for hatch, it's not like you can really react to wherever killer is and make noise for them to find you anyway. It'll take me just as much time to crawl back into the open, and the killer still needs to step over me to find me, unless the killer actually looks at you, it can be just as hard to be found as it is to stay hidden xD
So to my mind, mightvas well just try to keep hidden, means I still get nervous when the killer comes near, so its still some fun if you treat successfully bleeding out as a new objective 😅
To be fair, if the killer finds me/has me dead to rights, I will not resist and let them put me somewhere cool for the Mori 😁
3 -
The only thing I do not agree with here is opening up chests while slugged. I get the idea behind it but think it'd be a little bit wonky. If the chest is already open then, yeah, swap items but if the chest is still locked you can't wiggle the lock to get it open.
Fair.
I suppose with chests generally being given more appealing perks, and there is a sort of idea of "if you're down to 2 players, start opening chests to try and get a key".
0 -
Let’s summarize every request survivors have:
“Killers should exist to provide me with entertainment only, never to win, much less kill anyone”
1 -
The problem is that the hatch exists for a reason, and slugging to prevent the hatch spawning is circumventing that mechanic.
Getting the hatch might not involve "skill" but it is still a fair shot, it's pretty much a 50/50 chance, slightly in the killers favour. (Unless it's a high mobility killer then it's heavily in the killers favour)
Slugging the third survivor doesn't require skill either, nor is it a fair chance, it is a stalling tactic to guarantee a 4K when you've so far only earned a 3K.
6 -
Fundamentally disagree.
It is intended mechanic not circumventing.
Slugging does require skill, you had to outplay them to down in the first place. It also does not guarantee a 4K, just inaccurate. I’d also disagree about only earning a 3k. If you are getting hatch you don’t earn anything. If a hatch is used to escape it was an earned 4K. Hatch is an unearned free escape for no reason.
2 -
Dear survivors please do not complain about the hook respawn mechanic. With this we will no longer have to slug and can hook you normally. Of course I knew it was a load of,
4 -
You need to outplay them to down them in the first place.
And then you can hook them. Or if you can immediately see the other survivor you can slug and start a chase. That's the intended mechanics.
To leave the third survivor on the floor for minutes at a time while you scour the entire map to ensure the fourth survivor has absolutely no other options available to them, is not an intended playstyle, nor does it require any more skill beyond downing the third survivor to begin with.
A 3K is by no means an earned 4K, any more than 4 gens is an earned 5 gens. Survivors can repair all the gens and even get the exits open, and still die. By the same metrics, the killer can hook everyone twice, kill 3 survivors, but then still has to earn that fourth kill, it does not get given to you just because you killed 3.
That last survivor HAS to have a viable method of escape, regardless of how the game has progressed until the point, which is why the hatch exists. Because if they don't, then the game is already forgone once the 2nd survivor is eliminated, resulting in the last 2 survivors giving up, and making every 2K an automatic 4K. This would mean balancing the game around a 2K as a win for the killer, resulting in huge survivor buffs/killer nerfs.
The killer has the equivalent of the hatch. No matter how badly the killer plays, they always have the option to camp a hooked survivor during EGC, which is a good chance at securing at least 1 kill, that doesn't require much skill.
The killer equivalent to removing the hatch would be all the hooks outside of the bassment breaking once the gates are powered. After all if the gates are powered the survivors have earned their 4E.
6 -
Never going to happen in an immensely Killer Sided game.
1 -
Please bHVR its so frustrating to see a brilliant game be lacking in this particular area, sure the problem might not be super big in the grands scheme of things, but when it happens it really sours the night. Not only that, you REALLY ought to respect the time of the Survivors who play your game more, but that's just my opinion. Like asking any player to be slugged for this long during the ending of the game is ABSURD. Please.
4 -
You don't earn a 4k until you best all four survivors individually. But once there is one survivor left with one full gen or more remaining, there is realistically no hope of finishing another gen. Hatch is meant not only to prevent a long drawn-out hunt in this scenario, but also to give the last survivor a fighting chance so they have a reason to play the game.
It's also sometimes the case that a particular survivor will outplay the killer for the entire match and get left in favor of easier targets. I've had matches where the killer refuses to come after me following some first looping even when I later body block for a teammate being tunneled, tank hits, and try to look like a good target. I don't think the killer should think about 'earning kills' in that scenario.
It should be remembered that the game isn't just killer vs survivor team, the game is also killer vs each individual survivor. By slugging for 4k, the killer is ignoring that they may not have outplayed the last survivor at all, forcing the third survivor to waste time laying on the ground doing nothing for up to several minutes, and bypassing an intended mechanic that's designed to prevent a long drawn-out hunt and give the last survivor a fair shot. And all this is being done so the person who is slugging for 4k can get a kill that's nearly free. This is also usually being done so the person slugging for 4k can feel like they got what they consider 'the best outcome.'
Also, I do slug for 4k against bully squads, and I can definitely say that it takes no skill to pull off that fourth kill. It might take a little extra time if the fourth survivor picks up the slug because you go hunting instead of camping the slug. But then you just go do it again. It's a trivial thing to pull off, and only requires the killer to have finished a little more than two survivors to perform.
5 -
Funny how the hatch mechanic leads to all of this. I do like the notion of a slug recovering fully then taking chances to get up into injured status. Something like the 4% unhook odds seems appropriate, and each failure to get up quickens the bleed out.
We can play around with the particular numbers, have it only activate when just two survs are left maybe. Worth testing out imo.
0 -
Those slugging for the 4Kill are also the ones who QQ about bully and SWF. They don't realize trying so hard to win leads them to the bullies and SWF.
2 -
I lost count on how many times I said this same thing my friend. Like really they treat solo q players like garbage but when a swf or even a non swf but a competent set of survivors give them karma from what they do solo q. They boohoo claiming bullies, survivor op, perk need nerf etch.
Post edited by buggybug on3 -
"Only earned a 3k"
LMAO a 3k is still a win. That's a Killer win, you already earned a win. There's no "only" about it, YOU WON. Slugging for a 4k is kinda lame, unless they brought the sweaty/bully energy first. Then it's pretty valid.2 -
I love how hatch was added to end games lasting forever, but killers drag the game out and blame the hatch for causing them to drag out the match.
Like nah bro, it's all a self inflicted problem. One time, a survivor tbagged them on top of hatch and messages them "gg ez" so now the whole world has to burn. That's literally what's going on.
6 -
Yes I agree. It's still not a 4K though.
If there is to be any meaningful distinction between a 3K and a 4K, then there should be a meaningful amount of effort to obtain it, just like escaping.
3 -
But I mean there really isn't that much distinction though, a win is a win is a win. But I do see your point, the effort is there - it's in finding and downing and killing that last Survivor. That's not negligible.
0 -
As I've said I'm a Killer Main, over three-fourths my games are on the Killer side. The reason for this is that for me playing Survivor sucks and I want the experience to be better and more fun. I WANT Killers to get 4ks, but I want them to do it via twelve hooks (or eleven and a Mori now I guess). I do not want to see 4ks done via slugging all four Survivors for the entire game (this has happened to me once more already since posting this thread by the way; Vigo's Journal and Compound Thirty-Three are one hell of a combo it seems) nor do I want 4ks because they slugged the second to last person to prevent Hatch from spawning (happened to me TWICE more after having posted this thread, both times as the slug).
I want BOTH sides to have a fun time. You trying to make this reductive down to "Stop having fun guys." is not helpful and actively detrimental to things. Stuff can be changed to make it slightly more fair and fun for one side over the other while not totally removing the fun from that other side. The changes made for base-kit Borrowed Time and the anti-camp have proved that these sorts of problems can be addressed in ways that are fair for both Killer and Survivor. Will they force people to change how they play? Yes, of course, but that shouldn't stop the changes being made because that playstyle needs to change to make things more fun overall.
What "side" the game on is never going to be agreed on. However, you say this and we got base-kit Borrowed Time "in a Killer sided game". We got an anti-camp feature "in a Killer sided game". We got gen regression caps "in a Killer sided game". There have also been a lot of changes for the Killer side "in a Survivor sided game", such as various add-on and Perk nerfs.
The game is sided to whatever side you don't play the most. That's just bias. Doesn't make it true.
Slugging should be one of the next 'problems' on the "The List Of Solo Queue Survivor Fixes That Need To Be Made" so hopefully we'll get something other than base-kit Unbreakable soon. Really just being able to bleed-out faster is all that is needed.
I've seen more than a handful of streamers who "pay it forward" in that if they get a toxic group of Survivors as Killer they then play super toxic to the next group. Like, really people? You're just being part of the problem here!
There is some distinction between a 3K and a 4K: when it comes to achievements. If you're going for a Killer Adept you need to get that 4k. This is the only scenario where my bitterness over seeing a third Survivor slugged to find the forth is somewhat mollified. Still sucks as it's happening but I somewhat understand.
3 -
I think if the only real distinction between a 3k and a 4k is cheevos, then there's arguably little difference between a 3k and a 4k at all. One's just a "you win with style" option while the other is simply "you win". I really truly wish that BHVR would just adjust the Adepts to not HAVE to be 4ks, it seems like it should just be "win as X Killer with their own perks". That would eliminate stuff like slugging and stuff for adepts.
0 -
Agreed about adepts being a problem in that sense.
I always thought that doing something with style meant holding the door open for someone less fortunate ;)
And while I mostly meant that as a joke about giving hatch, I kind of treat it that way when I play killer. If the last survivor didn't do anything to deliberately aggro me, they're probably getting hatch.
Having said that, I think it's important to go for 4k sometimes so that there's always an expectation that as the last survivor, you're generally not going to make it. That threat makes giving hatch feel more meaningful in my mind. But now having said all this, I think slugging for 4k is the opposite of winning with style. It's more like a hunter with a weapon hunting a defenseless creature that doesn't even know how to fight back, and then the hunter decides to take away the only means of escape. No sport in it.
Anyway, now I feel like I'm ranting. I think I agree with what you wrote :D
2 -
Fully agree that Killer Adept should be decoupled from "Merciless Killer" and should instead require something like ten or eleven hook states (because sometimes someone just goes second hook from first because of bad teammates), to give the possibility of letting the last one go slash taking the Mori. As it is right now if you Mori someone you don't even get Merciless because it's tied to sacrifices not kills. Some people will tunnel to get it but people already tunnel to get Killer Adepts anyways so no real change there.
I also agree that there isn't any real difference in a 3K and a 4K for me most games. Some games I really want to catch everyone because of how well they were playing and want to prove to myself I'm "good enough" but most matches I am perfectly content with getting a 3K and a "If I can find the last one great if not that's fine as well." but some people have gotten it into their heads that it's "4K or nothing" so they must get all four kills. I think the big name Killer streamers are somewhat to blame for this and need to change how they play. Stop doing challenges that "require" them to play super sweaty or maybe change the rules of said challenges so they don't have to tunnel people out at five gens in order to beat said challenge.
4 -
Easy fix, basekit unbreakable.
0 -
I think hatch should be spawned when last survivor is downed by the killer, because right now due to whole this situation with slugging hatch is useless.
1 -
Actually, this is a really good idea. So if the third survivor goes down or is eliminated, hatch opens. Then slugging for 4k might be completely eliminated.
1 -
I also think that this whole "Bleed out"/ "Concede" option would be highly exploited by the killers - they would play as nasty as possible and slug even more, because such options would give even easier 4ks.
1 -
Understood. I was agreeing with your suggestion! If hatch spawns as soon as the third survivor is eliminated or slugged, then slugging for 4k to prevent hatch would be completely eliminated.
I think it would need some caveats though. Killers need to be incentivised to put the third survivor on hook and play the remaining game as normal. If hatch opens immediately upon the third survivor being slugged, the killer's best play would be to slug the third and immediately go hunt for hatch and/or the fourth survivor.
I'd say that if the third survivor is slugged for more than 15 seconds without being picked up and no other survivor being in chase, then hatch could open. That would mean slugging for 4k would be likely to give the last survivor hatch race, and the slugged survivor could even be able to crawl to it, triggering egc. That might be enough to make killers prefer to camp the hook of the third survivor, which is almost an expected play. That gives options to the last survivor, whereas in a slug for 4k, the last survivor only has nearly hopeless options: hide for several minutes or pick up the slug so the killer can do it again.
1 -
I've said over, and over again NO. Base-kit Unbreakable is TOO STRONG and was shot down when the developers themselves proposed it for good reason. Base-kit Unbreakable would make slugging a really bad option, even if you only restricted it to once per Survivor. The goal isn't to remove slugging, it is to make slugging more bearable for the Survivor being slugged and to limit "slug the second to last to find the last" game extension. Being able to bleed out faster on demand is a good middle ground that doesn't help the Survivor win but allows them to move on to the next game faster.
Good luck actually coding such a thing. It has too many "What-ifs" and operant conditions. Does the Hatch despawn if the slug is picked up in some manner? Does the Hatch close and lock and trigger end game collapse if one of the Survivors goes through it, trapping the other? Does it stay open to potentially allow both out?
If the Hatch spawns right next to the slug and the Killer closes it we've got E.G.C. happening so that'd be something at least.
It's a nice idea in theory but in practice it'd probably be too finicky.
Killers are already four person slugging, so not much would change. If what makes a person going from playing how they currently play to full team slugging or slugging second-to-last is that the Survivors are no longer as inconvenienced as before that's still a win for the Survivor not being as inconvenienced.
We'd probably see less four person slugging over all, because I've asked people why they do it and the general response was one of two things; either "To shut down most of Survivor Perks I see most often" or "To waste as much of your time as possible and make your experience as ######### as I can".
Some people be spiteful little witches with a b. These later people where typically upset when people disconnected because while they'd be locked out of next game for a bit they were not in the current game suffering on the ground. That was back when I used to not have cross-play on and could still get games and actually use end game chat but it seems things haven't changed much in the "Every so often you get a really nasty match" but I have seen a larger increase in second-to-last slugging, especially for a Mori, than before.
Speaking of for second-to-last slugging, I would expect it to not change much, since the way I could see the "Bleed Out" actually being implemented would still give more time to find the last Survivor over hooking someone.
2 -
That shouldn't be so hard to code. My suspicion is that when an in-game event (e.g. survivor is hooked, killer misses a swing, survivor is slugged) occurs, a sequence of 'if' statements are checked in the code. All that should need to happen is to put an if that triggers when a survivor is slugged and two survivors are already sacrificed. If that condition is met, start a timer for 15 seconds, at the end of which another check is made that opens the hatch if the third survivor is not hooked and no chase is active.
Hatch can just remain open at that point, enabling the start of hatch race, which can be won by either the slug, the last survivor standing, or the killer. As soon as a survivor enters hatch or killer closes it, lock hatch and trigger egc. In this scenario, hatch race isn't circumvented by slugging for 4k, and the killer then has to worry about either the slug or last survivor getting it. I'd actually go a step further and give the slug basekit Left Behind for as long as they remain slugged so that the killer is heavily disincentived to slug the third survivor.
Since egc triggers as soon as anyone closes hatch (by killer closing it or one survivor escaping), the game can only become a four minute hide and seek match if the killer slugs for 4k and downs the last survivor.
The killer could go look for hatch upon downing the third survivor and hope to trigger egc, but then they risk the slug being picked up and both survivors escaping. They could also camp the slug, but then the hatch is likely to be taken by the fourth survivor. The best play seems to be to be to put the third on hook and start hatch race. I'm not seeing too many ways how it would be hard to code or lead to weird plays.
0 -
I was mostly making a "spaghetti code" joke about it Changing it from "Three (Killed OR Sacrificed) Survivors" to "Two (Killed OR Sacrificed) one (Dying)" shouldn't be too hard. It just comes down to if the devs are willing to make more Hatch changes after they changed it from "Gen math" to "Last alive".
I'm all for built in Left Behind for the slug though. Maybe then Left Behind itself can get changed into an actually useful Perk.
1 -
I was just slugged as second-to-last in 2v8 mode so the Killers could find A BOT as the last. Not even another player. A bot. Someone who had already DCed. They slugged me to find a [insert long string of profanity here] bot.
I don't even know why I bothered coming back to this deities forsaken cesspit of a game.
1
