Feedback and Suggestions

Feedback and Suggestions

Survivor perk design philosophy needs re-evaluation. Too many downsides are being placed.

Member Posts: 271
edited January 28 in Feedback and Suggestions

This has been something going on for a while. Adding restrictions to weak perks just seems backwards to me. I do not understand this at all.

Wake-up - why did it need survivors to be alive- your punishing the survivor using the perk for teammates dying.

calm spirit - why is there unnecessary downside to have totems take longer

Cut loose - How are you even supposed to use this perk with the number of restrictions and while quick and quiet exists

Friendly competition - after prove thyself nerf this bad perk was left in the gutter you have to use negative gen efficiency to get a measly +5% for a short time

Invocations - these are always a massive wasted time investment for perma-broken????

potential energy - a potentially mediocre perk gatekept by the fact its too risky to use. Its already a negative time investment why does it need to lose everything on injure

Technician - for the love of new players why is the training wheels perk so punishing? do they really need to be punished for using this perk? Most players would rather run any other perk then the one that makes their missed skill checks even more punishing.

This is just some of the problems. Please consider not adding so many downsides to the least used perks in the game. Anyone else have perks i missed?

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Comments

  • Member Posts: 3,888

    I feel like these kinds of things are being fixed now, we've had kinda a renaissance where a lot of perks are being made a lot better now.

    Build diversity right now on both sides is probably the best its ever been.

  • Member Posts: 3,888

    Well yes for new perks, though I'd personally prefer BHVR err on the side of caution rather than make another MFT, DH or H:TotH situation.

    We've had so many perks buffed to be really good now, such as DS, Resurgence, Babysitter, Blood Rush, WGLF, Grim Embrace, etc, etc.

    I see potential for Invocations, and Weaving Spiders is good if you use it properly, however Treacherous Crows badly needs an Overhaul to the entire concept of Invocations.

    Shoulder the Burden is also good if you use it properly, problem is people tend insist on getting the value even if it's not a good time to use it, which I myself am guilty of. If you've been hooked already and you StB, that's a bad time to use it... you should only use it if you are 0 hook stages and another player is at 2. I'd combine it with something like Vigil and Sprint Burst if it were me, maybe Camaradarie or Blood Rush.

    Honestly the big issue I have with StB is killers don't tunnel enough in my games, which I can only assume is because either I am so lucky to always get the nicest killers, or because I observe good unhook/gen discipline, I make it very unprofitable for the killer to tunnel. 🤷

    Anyway I'm an off meta player, and the number of good perks available to me for builds now is quite long.

  • Member Posts: 212

    The issue with Technician and Calm Spirit come from perk tiers. Percentage changes like that are easy to adjust and there needs to be things that change to justify having to level up a perk.

  • Member Posts: 751

    At first I though it was just me and am like to my friend how am i hitting great skill checks no problem on pc( still using controller) yet on ps5 its far harder and yeah it was input lag which is weird as its not like ps5 runs dbd bad runs it very well.

  • Member Posts: 751

    Off topic but I been meaning to say I love both your names and your both jesters to boot xd.

    On topic yeah its been bothering me thst there has been a trend of perks thst makes no sense why they are being touched, No one on either side complains or only maybe those 1% or less weirdos who do.

    To add too post there is this issue with what I call 2.0 perks. I give small examples to not make this long

    Self care vs strength of shadows

    Calm spirit vs harden

    Quick and quiet vs cut loose

    Finesse vs Resilience

    When you read the info of them usually the vanilla ones has a slight edge such as being immediately useable yet has far more drawbacks vs the 2.0. However the 2.0s while stronger tend to have prerequisites that wastes time to get the benefits like harden but no drawback once said prerequisite is done.

  • Member Posts: 3,888
    edited January 30

    Cheers lad 😁

    Also a reasonable observation. I suppose this is the natural way it goes as ideas for new perks become harder and harder to come by.

    Though in fairness there are some pretty cool and unique perk ideas from the fans time to time... but it's up to the folks upstairs in the end I guess 😅

  • Member Posts: 169

    To be fair there is no reason to be playing survivor anymore. What is the point of we see the same overpowered stuff? You think killers use anything new or survivors use anything different. Everyone uses the same meta every game. I can see it almost all the time the same perks I never see anything different on both sides. I am starting to hate how annoying and sweaty the game has become. Honestly I think I will just uninstalled the game and continue writing here because honestly it is more fun discussing how ######### unfair and unbalanced this game is than actually playing it.

  • Member Posts: 169

    Alright did it I uninstalled this game :D I am not gonna be touching it for a while now I think. Honestly just too annoying to see toxic survivors and killers. I just want to beat them up for being such rude human garbage honestly. They deserve to be beaten up badly for being so rude to everyone

  • Member Posts: 3,888
    edited January 30

    Meeeeehhhh, it is what it is really... if you're finding it more annoying/frustrating than you are fun, it's good to take a break from it.

    For some reason I'm generally quite chill about DBD, sure I get mad from time to time, but I used to be a proper rage head back when I was playing things like CoD4, TF2, CSS and LoL.

    Not really sure why Ive mellowed out, the game just seems to click with me.... and I suppose after you've been in a toxic war involving mothers and various global diseases over the mic with a bunch of Chavs in a ka_soccer Counter Strike server... a few tea baggers or ground humpers do little more than raise an eyebrow... and start to look kinda adorable really on that scale 😅

  • Member Posts: 169

    Good for you honestly I never have had such rude people in TF2 that was the game I played before the most. As for DBD it was fun before but now I got to the point where I get matched with people totally outside of my league. Behaviour and their half baked matchmaking is the problem because they both made it skillbased but at the same time it is not really skillbased because they made a giant gap so the people in high mmr get to play with people with lower mmr so it becomes just a giant mess. I already took a very long break before I will take one again. I had some fun but honestly my favourite killers are just nerfed or worthless in a scenario where survivors use a bit of logic to counter you and even if you do it right you still dont get enough value out of your power Deathslinger and Legion are such killers then there is killers as survivor that are just outright broken like Singularity, Xenomorph or Trickster with his unfun knives that are just spamming. Pretty much I am taking a very nice long break :D I got other games to have fun with.

  • Member Posts: 407

    I agree, but these restrictions have to go on these weaker perks.

    Honestly, I think the invocations would be better if it was on a time stamp of like 1-5 minutes. If that's considered too strong, I'd outright remove the sound it makes when finishing an Invocation.

    The others have far too much restrictions on them for zero reason and if those restrictions were taken off, I would use them more.

    Additionally, I'd like Technician to get a small buff that if you're doing a generator with another person -- it shouldn't negate the more quiet gen speeds it provides. Even with this buff, I believe Technician would still be niche as many people who are skilled do not use Technician regardless.

  • Member Posts: 7,205

    Technician should reduce the skill check fail penalty, not increase it

  • Member Posts: 1,542

    Invocations, Blood Pact, Repressed Alliance, Calm Spirit, Botany Knowledge, Deadline among others, I dont understand why these perks are a huge issue to not have a downside yet, all the most used current perks people co-ordinate in SWFs that DONT have a downside are fine?

    Isn't it kind of silly that we removed the downside of Autodidact and it's still not a highly used perk, like what are you worried about another Made For This situation, let them have their time in the sun and deal with them if they are too strong?

    Also why can't you let perks act like survivor powers and grant more BPs on the likes of Bardic Inspiration or Mirrored Illusion??

  • Member Posts: 9,513

    calm spirit needs a downside because of hex:face the darkness. the main purpose of hex perk is to interrupt people on totems and calm spirit prevents screaming make the perk ineffective.

    Technican does not have downside. the downside of failing skill-check is that generator progression is paused for 5 seconds. Technician removes the downside. To not give an extra 5 seconds when you fail a skill-check, it has penalty in reducing gen progress by same amount.

    killer perks are much worse than survivor perks in downsides. virtually every single killer perk they have released in last year has had killer perk downsides. there is not a single perk that they have not released for killer where the effect is plain. simple and grants tangible reward.

    No Quater →Requires survivor to fail skill-check, requires self-healing, has meaningless broken negative.

    SC: Jagged Compass → Doesn't synergize with pain res, Has poor synergy with hangman trick, monstrous shrine, requires perk synergy to do anything. Perk that require synergy is downside in itself.

    All-shaking thunder → requires high points, has cooldown, has a very short duration, so here we have Luck, Map reliance and timers.

    Undone → Requires survivors to fail skill-checks, requires kicking a gen which is downside because time sink. Survivor behavior downside, costs killer time, gain 0 reward.

    Unbound → Has timer, requires you to injure someone to activate it. gives a meangless time limit haste that ends before you get any value from slow vaulting windows.

    Unforeseen → Requires you to kick gens, does nothing for first 15 seconds of the effect because of TR.

    Dominance → Requires survivors to touch chests and totems to do anything. Has 1 time limit use. needs perk synergy. the reward isn't worth perk slot.

    Hex:wretch fate → Has hex downside.

    Human greed → Low aura reading, Rely on chest rng, has downside of needing hoarder.

    Superior anatomy → Has downside of getting stunned with a worse vaulting reward than bamboozle.

    Lanquid touch → Requires crows, that is rng. has low reward of exhaustion.

    weave attunement → Requires franklin demise, requires survivors to bring items, has downside in showing survivor items.

    that is last 4 killer set of perk and yet not a single one is worth using. the closest one that has any semblance of value is Scourge:jagged compass and it is only usable because it fixes design flaw of scourge hook perks. Mainly, it only makes SC: Flood of rage & Scourge hook: gift of pain into regular perks. Crazy, a perk slot to make other perks into normal perks. Wow. This perk is only perk that I end up using every now and again in daily/weekly games.

  • Member Posts: 8,253

    I don't think a single perk you listed there actually has a downside. I think you might be conflating downsides with both restrictions and just, general perk design?

    A downside is an actively negative effect that the perk has in addition to its positive effects. For the killer side, the two I can think of that are balanced this way are Rapid Brutality taking away Bloodlust and Dark Arrogance increasing your stun/blind timers- neither of which you listed.

    A restriction would be something that stops the perk from working outside of its intended use case, like information being tied to specific sources (chests and crows, for example) or an anti-heal effect being specific to a type of healing (self healing for No Quarter, altruistic healing for something like Deathbound). These aren't downsides because you're not any worse off because of them, you're just at worst reset to neutral with your perk not working in that specific moment.

    The part I'm confused about is where you seem to just be talking about how a perk is designed…? Take No Quarter as an example, you list the failed skill check and the Broken as downsides. Those are just what the perk does, though, it inflicts Broken if a heal ends and gives a flurry of skill checks to try and force that to happen. I really don't know how those two things could be construed as downsides. I think you might be conflating perks just not being very good with them having downsides?

    Regardless, like I said, I'm not actually against downsides when it makes sense. Rapid Brutality is a good example of a trade where it makes sense - you get a very strong Haste effect in chase, but give up the basekit Haste effect. If you're good and utilise Rapid Brutality properly you'll never notice, but it does require you not to play sloppily. Same for Botany Knowledge on the survivor side, that trade makes sense- you get a damn strong healing boost that isn't restricted to altruistic only, but if you want to use medkits with it you have to bring extra charges. The way these two perks are designed makes it clear why the downside is there, and shapes the way you'd play with those perks.

    Calm Spirit and Technician, however, just make the perk feel worse without really having a good reason to be there. I don't think there are any killer perks in that vein, but I might be just forgetting some.

  • Member Posts: 751

    Calm spirit exist since the game was born so face the darkness example makes no sense. No killer not even a doctor main ever complain of calm spirit and it was unnecessary nerfed in 6.1.

    Also harden is far superior to calm spirit, though you must be lucky to get a chest and totem good spawn. But procing killer aura specially doctor non stop if they try to make you scream is far more powerful. Sometimes I sit in madness 3 on purpose and fail skill checks ro see where Herman is.

    Only edge over calm spirit is that its activate already and counters spies abit but alot case cause you can still step on them to scare them but blessing and cleansing a totem silently is 0 use if your injured and not using iron will.

  • Member Posts: 9,513

    Anyone with any common sense will know that these perks are bad. defending the perk is wild endeavour to support bad perks and empty perk content.

    Rapid Brutality is a good example of a trade where it makes sense - you get a very strong Haste effect in chase, but give up the basekit Haste effect

    First, I disagree that the perk need downside. Second, the perk downside in most instances is irrelevant for killer that use them. For example, Hux is a killer that uses this perk. The downside has relatively low impact on average for experienced killers but needless punishes killers.

    The part I'm confused about is where you seem to just be talking about how a perk is designed…?

    A perk can be designed with implicit downsides. You can also remove implicit downsides by designing the perk to not be trash. let's use this no quarter perk as example to that.

    The goal of the perk is to delay survivors healing to soft-counter perks like solidarity, resurgence and reactive healing. The perk conditions and downsides prevent it from activating in experience matches as few people will fail skill-check.

    A version of the perk that would be superior and more usable in average match is following:

    When you begin a healing action from injured to healthy[Downside to prevent activating on slugs], you become broken for 30 seconds. No quarter may only cause broken once per health-state[Prevents perk from infinity looping].

    you can do this with all of the perks.

    Harden requires you to do a totem. you cannot ignore the thrill of the hunt+Face the darkness with Harden. you can only do that at 4 totems but thrill becomes weaker as soon as you break one of them. The perk does not perform the ice breaker status like Calm spirit does.

  • Member Posts: 8,253

    For the record, at no stage did I defend any of those perks. I just pointed out that they don't have downsides the way that something like Rapid Brutality or Dark Arrogance does.

  • Member Posts: 124

    Blame SWF. The game balance gets wonky when you have Surv perks that actually are useful because then SWF just stack them to abuse, so then Killers rightfully complain.

  • Member Posts: 9,513

    they do. they have far too many and it is making all the perks nearly rubbish.

  • Member Posts: 271

    Cut loose has to activated withing 6 seconds but thats very rarely something you do immediately again in chase and it also has a 45 second cooldown making it extremely situational hence the downsides being the timers on the perk and initial activation requirement.

    Friendly competition pretty sure i was clear on this but ill explain it better. When multiple survivors are repairing a gen their is a -15% efficiency penalty for each survivor on the gen so the downside is you have to be less efficient to gens to gain +5% speed for 75 seconds. which is just a net negative if you run this perk. Prove thyself gives you +10% repair speed so it already does what this perk does but better as you're not even guaranteed to be able to make use of the bonus.

    I can concede Cut loose is more of the perk badly designed with no room to even get a payoff but friendly competition is all downsides.

    I agree those botany and rapid brutality perks having appropriate and proportionate downsides and they are great perks with fair tradeoffs

  • Member Posts: 407

    Yeah, I don't mind Botany Knowledge as I often run it with Leader for myself to get fast heals and me give fast heals to others.

    For @buggybug , I prefer Calm Spirit (I like to run it with Shoulder The Burden) as I prioritize gens over totems (unless a Hex is in play). I agree with you that the whole doing things slower is a worthless downside to the perk. It's strange to me when you look at all the most popular perks via Nightlight.gg - a lot of those perks hardly have any downsides whatsoever, hence why they're used as often as they are.

    Botany I believe just got the heavy nerf due to the medkit and CoH nerfs, so it was nerfed due to that. All of these perks that have downsides like @Rokku_Rorru says prevents them from being more used. Even if you take away these downsides, they still would not crack the top ten but at least the pool for variety would increase.

    There is no reason why Calm Spirit has the nerf that it has, while Thrill of the Hunt got its buff.

    No reason why Wake Up got the nerf that it got, while Remember Me got the buff that it got.

    Invocations needing to be done separately (if you pair them), the large indicator that it's in play if a killer goes to basement, the loud sound effect it makes when a survivor finishes it, and the permanent broken status effect is why I would never use it - only time I used it was Sable's adept and even I didn't use the perk as it's essentially throwing the game.

    Deadline needing the skill checks to occur more only when you're injured is such a weird nerf as it's so situational to get value from it.

  • Member Posts: 10,130

    I didn't like the change to Calm Spirit or Wake Up. You almost never see these perks be played. For Wake Up, that's always been the case. But Calm Spirit was quite useful at one time.

    It's my belief that the devs' refusal to un-nerf Calm Spirit during the so-called "Ultimate Weapon meta" is a big part of what led to that perk's nerf as well, which is a shame. Survivors explained, "We have to run a perk which slows our chest and totem speeds just to counter a killer perk." The correct choice would've been to get rid of that downside on Calm Spirit, and let Ultimate Weapon settle a little longer before abruptly nerfing the only viable non-aura killer info perk. And really, I never ran the perk because I thought info was overrated. I especially didn't see how the perk's power even came close to that of Pain Res, STBFL, or even Brutal Strength. Anyway, Calm Spirit could give no screams, and no sound of chests/totems (this coming from a guy who hates dealing with zero-sound), and it wouldn't be overpowered in the slightest. The devs' belief that it would be OP in that state shows a lack of understanding of the game.

    Wake Up I think shouldn't have been nerfed. But I could be wrong. The devs have very rarely made healthy preemptive buffs/nerfs (nerfing/buffing something before it gets complained about, rather than waiting until the backlash). The only example I can think of is the Huntress buff, because the devs could see what most players couldn't, that Huntress had fallen off, and so they just gave her a buff before killers rightfully started complaining "She's so weak, and needs buffs."

    The devs saw with Wake Up the potential for survivors to abuse a "roach out" playstyle by combining it with sole survivor, Left Behind and so on, to selfishly wait for their teammates to die and then get a free escape (sort of a problem hatch's existence creates, more than anything, but I digress). So you could argue that they did a good preemptive nerf. But I feel like they should have at least waited for the perk's usage to rise to justify such a decision. It was used in 1% or so of all matches which, considering how many survivor perks there are, isn't nothing. It also saw a 30% or so escape rate, and if we compare that to the devs intended 40% average escape rate, you can draw conclusions about that, 1 of which is that the perk comes dangerously close to giving a survivor a free escape, no matter what, in any average match it's used in.

    I disagree with you on thinking that these changes prompt a total reevaluation of survivor. I think at best, you can just consider these bad changes done with the best intentions. Really, I don't see most survivor perks having any significant downside. But the slowdown on Calm Spirit and the extra regression on Technician have got to go.

  • Member Posts: 751

    fair point I honestly be switching between the two based on how am feeling, usually in swf ill run harden but solo q calm spirit instead.

  • Member Posts: 407

    Interesting, what is your Hardened build out of curiosity? Again, I've never used it other than the Lara adept, lol.

  • Member Posts: 751

    iron will flashbang and the 4th perk is random depends, maybe background player with swf or inner healing ( solo q) lightweight/quick quiet/luck break many choice of 4th random perk xD

  • Member Posts: 407

    Aw, okay - yeah Inner Strength is really good with any totem breaking perk.

    I can't do flashbang saves on my end, I know it's all about timing. ☠️ I can manage flashlight saves, but I really have to go out of my way for it and most of the time I'm just looping or doing gens. But I respect the build, especially Iron Will and Background Player.

    I don't really use Lucky Break on my end, but I know some people like Scott Jund find the perk OP, lol.

  • Member Posts: 1,863

    Also:

    Dark Arrogance. The risk is bigger than the reward. Increase the reward.

    Weave Attunement: Overnerfed, revert the range.

    No Quarter: Why does it only affect self healing?

    All-Shaking Thunder: The duration is so eh, you can’t use it almost anywhere.

    Undone: Long cooldown, and hard activation condition.

    Unbound: Why does it require you to vault a window right after you hit a survivor? It should instead keep active until you vault, like Superior Anatomy.

    Hex: Two Can Play: Clunky activation, too short stun.

    Reactive Healing: It will never heal you up fully, so you have to run a medkit alongside it.

    Mettle of Man: Reveals your aura for some reason?

    Dying Light: Why does it buff the Obsession so much?

    Territorial Imperative: You have to be in a separate plane of existence for it to work.

  • Member Posts: 751

    imo lucky break needs a buff just healing a team mate is abit much since its not all the time you can do that, maybe like repairing a gen or even self healing would be nice

  • Member Posts: 209

    I really agree with your comments about Technician. When I introduce a new friend to Dead by Daylight, I always ask them to play Feng so they could use Technician and learn how to play the game without becoming frustrated or upset they are a major liability. Technician should be reviewed to enhance the new player experience before FNAF.

  • Member Posts: 13
    edited February 2

    Most annoying thing is all the new perks being added forcing us to do random chores on survivor.

    Want to use the perk Hardened from Lara to silence your screams? Which only offers you the -chance- to see the killer's aura because most games you never scream anyway unless you take a hit? Go open a chest and cleanse a totem! Gee thanks!

    "Well, if you don't want to do chores, you can use Calm Spirit". Oh, you mean the perk that makes me do side objectives slower for literally no good reason at all? As if screaming is even that powerful to be able to suppress in the first place with the insane number of aura reading perks killers have, along with the fact Distortion was nerfed into dust.

    The Invocation perks are absolutely useless in my opinion. Having a negative health state all match is not worth it EVER. At MOST you should be injured for 90 seconds to 3 minutes. Unless the killer is brand new, they shouldn't have that much trouble tunneling someone out at that point with the permanently injured survivor effectively hiding now for most of the match. Seeing the killer's aura sometimes with the Treacherous Crows perk is the most useless information ever for the cost of a full health-state.

    Anyway, yes OP, I agree with you. Way too many chores.

  • Member Posts: 481
    edited February 4

    I think it makes sense for calm spirit, maybe not that slow.

    The killer has a slightly better chance to interrupt it and if you wanna doing something silent, like opening a chest , you have to do that slowly.

    Potential Energy is meant for 3 gen situations, where you have to prerun and the killer has no time to chase you.

  • Member Posts: 407

    No, you don't have to do it slowly.

    Behavior has an odd way of tacking on unnecessary nerfs to already niche perks.

    Look at Adrenaline and the way that they nerfed it, in comparison to Technician and Calm Spirit.

    Technician and Calm Spirit didn't need the restrictions that they got because they're already uncommon perks that people use.

    Like @ralecgos said, it's just chores. Chores upon chores upon chores, then they wonder why a perk isn't used after its "buff". People want more consistency, not let me waste my time for a marginal bonus. Why use these niche perks when you can use something more reliable?

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