Feedback and Suggestions
Feedback and Suggestions
Remove Map Variants!
Before you start assuming things, keep in mind I mean the ones marked with roman numerals, that only shuffle the map around.
They really, really suck.
First of all, they are yet another thing to learn (as if we didn't have enough maps to learn) and be confused by. I cannot tell Badham II from Badham IV and I don't think anyone does.
As if Badham wasn't enough, they added one to each MacMillan map, 2 to Ormond (so you won't see the new map even if you bring an offering) and one to each Yamaoka maps (even though they are fine).
And, with the 8.6.0 Patch, they are adding one to Forsaken Boneyard. Yet again, why even waste time on this?
My suggestion?
Remove Badham II - V and the new MacMillan, Ormond and Yamaoka variants.
Comments
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I agree in some way: in my opinion, the developers should keep the best version (and improve it if necessary) and remove the other varients. For example, I think the coal tower variant is better than the original for both sides while Ormond II can be balanced once they fix the deadzone around the little house. Badham I is the most average one and easier to balance than all five varients.
Having so many variants is just unnecessary for the game for many reasons:
- New players have already so much to learn (perks, tiles, maps, addons, gamesense ect.) and adding variants to the game makes it even harder for them, especially when the game is not telling them that it is a variant or not - they get confused but not only new players, even more experienced players get confused by variants and no one can tell which Badham is which based on the numbers.
- With the upcoming Realm Repeat Prevention, we will see more different maps which means we don't need these variants any longer for more diversity.
- It is already difficult to balance maps and the variants make it even more difficult. We still live a world where we have extremely bad maps (Eyrie, Badham, Haddonfield) and instead of wasting time by adding variants, they should invest this time in fixing problematic maps. This would help us much more than a new variant that we will see every 200 matches.
- Some variants are just problematic as hell. For me, both original Yamaoka maps are balanced maps for both sides (still some issues but very few and little). However, their variants can be really disgustion for killers depending on the rng (here are two examples of a match during the chaos shuffle):
Here we have a Pallet that connects perfectly into a four lane window which should never happen! A pallet should never line up with a window because this is a nightmare for every M1 killer and even stronger ones struggle with it.
A filler pallet fits perfectly with the shack which is also really problematic because it makes the loop so much bigger and the survivor has much more safety. Shack on it's own is a fair loop with which some kilers struggles but also getting a pallet next to it makes it more problematic because it can make a huge difference between a quick or long chase.
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in my opinion, the developers should keep the best version (and improve it if necessary) and remove the other varients
With the upcoming Realm Repeat Prevention, we will see more different maps which means we don't need these variants any longer for more diversity.
These two points. Agree 100%.
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It's not a bad point to be fair.
I guess the reason is along with all the other spawns in a map, having the variants gives a greater illusion that the game is more random and less predictable...this obviously works less and less the older the community gets.
I suppose another reason is different killer powers interact differently with how strong or not each map variant is for them, and the sane us obviously true for perks on both sides... it's likely an attempt to mitigate how influential map offerings are for both sides.
Ideally in a Utopian world all map variants would be equally fun and engaging, however there is an obvious tax of maintenance for that and I suppose the question is are the above 2 points (perceived randomness and map offering strength) worthwhile sacrifices to make the maps more learnable and consistent, as well as easier to maintain?
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Imo, yes.
Randomness can still happen on all of these maps (aside Badham) and the confusion caused by the variants hurts players more than it helps (although that is just my opinion)
The abusability of certain maps via map offerings has a solution, and it's adding new maps into existing realms (now yes, the variants do that, but to a lesser extent).
Take Greenville Square as an example. After it got added (and people figured out the great 3-gen spawns), I have not seen the offering for the realm at all.
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I really like that we have map variants, what I would really like is for them to add variants that favour the opposite side. So we get current Haddonfield AND one of the older ones, current Eyrie plus another smaller one that favours killer.
Then if someone plays an offering they don't know if it will benefit them or not.
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I agree makes 0 sense imo why this is a thing and there is 0 differences specially with badham
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There are differences. The layout of the buildings is different. On the other side tho, who even cares or notices? I certainly don't.
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Oh yeah I honestly could tell the difference or just didn't notice lol. Unlike garden of joy that spawn either a gazebo or a green house
Post edited by buggybug on0 -
Yes!!! I wrote about this in the most recent community survey. I'm glad to see other people feel the same way. Dead by Daylight feels so "same-y" and boring because of the variants. We have the Blue Woods, the Green Woods, the Orange Farm and 5 versions of Poop Preschool. I haven't played with the Realm Prevention System yet to have an opinion, but the game used to be very stale.
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Honestly, my dream would be a killer sided map in the Forsaken Boneyard realm that would stop all the toxic people from sending me there.
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I only partly agree. My issue is that due to variantions they have a bigger chance of being selected. So like since there are 5 Badhams, the chance of going there is 5/59. However there is only 1 Dead Dawg Saloon. So the odds of going there are. is only 1/59.
I think they should keep them, but make it so that they count as the same map for Map selection. So instead of Badham 1 to 5 all counting as 5 seperate maps that all have their own chance of being selected there is 1 Badham-option that has the same chance of being selected as one sole map, like Dead Dawg, and if it is selected you randomly get 1 out of the 5 possible maps.
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I dont hope bHVR stops making Map variants, its great diffrence in gameplay.
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That could... maybe work.
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No, I rather wanna have one fair balanced map instead of one killer- and survivor-sided map because it is just unfun and means little when you play/win on a map that favours your side. Winning on Eyrie as a survivor means nothing because you get carried by the map. Same goes for killers and their best maps.
The developers should focus on reworking the existing maps into fair balanced maps for both sides so you can fun and prove your skills.
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The only even remotely compelling reason to remove them was that map prevention system would not work for variants however now that map protection has been changed into realm protection, this is no longer a reason.
The maps are weighted to have similar appearance rates to a single map with no variants, badham historally has a weighting that is significantly lower than other maps. These variants create additional gameplay variety, and now that there is realm protection instead of map protection there is pretty much zero reason to remove them, and yes people can tell apart the badham variants, they all have a very distinct shape, just because you haven't bothered to learn that doesn't mean that's the case for everyone.
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I hate these and REALLY hope they remove them. Just pick the most balanced one of each to keep and axe the rest.
They're an artificial barrier to entry for new players and make learning maps unreasonably difficult. Heck even as a longtime player, I absolutely could not tell you the differences between Badham I-V. All I know is that the buildings shuffle around, but which is which? Who knows.
Not to mention it throws an unnecessary spanner in the works of map balance. Issues in DbD get addressed at an absolutely GLACIAL pace. All the variants have done is add more to the backlog with no obvious benefit. Some of the balance on the variants is just way off.
It's another in a long line of examples of BHVR making changes noone asked for.
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These variants create additional gameplay variety
Which would be fine if it didn't come at the cost of map balance, but this is DbD we're talking about and they never get this right. There's so many maps in dire need of changes that they should not be wasting time making variants and instead focus on making the maps we have good. We can add all the variants we want AFTER we no longer have disasters like Haddonfield (which is on it's 3rd? iteration and is still horrible).
people can tell apart the badham variants, they all have a very distinct shape, just because you haven't bothered to learn that doesn't mean that's the case for everyone
These forums never miss an opportunity to try and pull a "skill issue" on casual players. Please, this is tired. 99.9% of players do not know the difference between the Badham maps and they're never going to. The game needs to be balanced with the majority in mind.
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The map balance ship has already sailed, maps are never going to be balanced in DBD. New maps are added faster than they rework old maps and even when they do rework old maps half of the time they create new problems or fail to resolve problems that previously existed. BHVR's mapping team either doesn't care about or doesn't understand enough about balancing to reliably improve the balance of these maps. Look at haddonfield, how many times have they had to go back and update it, and it's still a terrible map.
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The gameplay variety they give is not that big, imho.
I mean, who asked for MORE MacMillan maps when there are 5 already?
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With the announcement of a new Eyrie version, I am kinda scared that the developers won't get rid of map variants/choose the best version and removes the other ones.
I played on Ormond II and Meg is running to a filler pallet that connects perfectly into a Labyrinth Gym (on the other side you see the mainbuilding). I, the Knight, stay btw at another filler pallet tile
I don't want deadzones or anything (that's boring for both sides) but it is kinda disgusting when good filler pallets connect so perfectly into stronger tiles and I noticed a lot of these issues on variants.
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It's kinda weird to me why do they even waste time and resources for maps that are, for many, completely indishtinguishable from the original.
Plus Ormond Lake Mine might as well not exist because all people will get is one of the 3 normal Ormond variants.
Alas, we can only hope.
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I completely agree. I hate Map Variants, I dont think they add anything to the game. They are mostly pretty imbalanced (mostly killer-sided) and are also really ugly to look at, since they appear as if someone really did not spend much time shuffling all those structures around which were previously carefully placed.
There is no need to have 5 Maps for Badham. Ideally you have 1 Map for Badham and then add another, different and new Map to the Realm. But not a map variant.
I dont know why they decided to add Map Variants to every Map in MacMillan. Those maps were regarded as some of the most balanced maps in the game and for some reason, they decided to ruin this. IMO they look especially ugly as well.
And for Ormond - it is kinda sad. They added two variants, which, again, are imbalanced and ugly only to add a completely new Map to the Realm, which is different. And the worst thing is that the Map is really good - it looks great and it is also really well balanced. I never had a bad game on this map on either side. And yet, if you get Ormond, you get one of the other maps.
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Yeah, the Ormond Variants are especially infuriating given how unique the Lake Mine is but NOPE, we have to only look at the same map we had for years, but slightly different.
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Agreed! Get rid of them! All they do is make it harder for new players to learn the maps..
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Waiting for a variant of Treatment Theatre where most of the walls collapsed from neglect and more Line of Sight.
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Will they be gone completely and when will that happen?
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I did not get a timeframe, but from my understanding, all of them will be gone. So there will only be one Badham Map, there will only be one Ormond Resort-Map, there should be only one MacMillan-Map for each Location (so one Coal Tower, one Suffocation Pit etc.) and the extra Yamaoka-Maps should be removed.
Those are all of them, if I dont forget anything.
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My game is still downloading/updating. They said they remove the map variants with this patch (Tokyo Ghoul). Idk if we can play them in custom.
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Popping in to confirm that, yes, all variants are removed as part of today's update.
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Thanks for the clarification. Funny enough I don’t even know what the original maps are of all the realms except of yamaoka and Ormond. I wonder if I will like the old maps more or the new ones?
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VICTORY AT LAST!!!
I'm glad this is happening. For most of the maps they didn't do a lot of good, and in some they actually had a bad influence (3 Ormonds outnumbering the Lake Mine, for example).
So, I'm glad they are being removed.
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What the heck? What are the good reasons to remove the variants? Variants are perfectly fine.
Yes, they are another thing to learn but that isn't a bad thing.
A truth that has always been in the game is that you run with what you got in the area where you are chased. I know most Survivors want to know where the strongest tile is in every map and run there directly at the start of every chase, but I tell you as Killer when Survivors know where the strong stuff on every map, I get real tired of seeing the same walls every game as Killer.Most of the time if you just focus on playing the game instead of wanting to know where the best tiles, you dont need to know where the best tiles are. Honestly this has totally ruined this release for me, a major content downgrade.
Is this the dbd we want now? where every player knows the location the most abusable tiles so they can run there and abuse it?
By this logic why even bother with making tiles, just make one tile there and keep it like that forever. Why even make new tiles?
Nah, dont make new tiles, cause why? Because someone always says they suck and its another thing to learn.I find this logic INCREDIBLY BAD and immensely unreasonable, what happend to you BHVR, what made you suddenly lose faith in like 15% of your map content. Whats the logic you are going to be working with forward?
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Just out of curiosity: Did you, the dev team, take any feedback or ideas from the variants like "what was balance wise good and what was bad" in order to maybe improve the original ones.
I also hope that we will get the Badham rework/update, now that you only have to balance one map instead of five.
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I feel like the variants changing up the layout only confuses newbies, and even then they still have WOO, which does that job for them.
While variety can be good, I'd rather see new maps added into the game, instead of a lazy reshuffle of an existing map.
And as for Ormond, it was by far the worst offender after the update to map selection, because the 3 variants of Ormond (who needed 3? Really.) blocked the Lake Mine from appearing.
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confusion isnt a problem, only if you tell them you are supposed to know where you are going at all times.
Rather people are just supposed to remember what they ran past the last min and plan an escape route while moving around the map.I think reshuffle of existing assets are fine, its getting more content our of already existing work. It isnt lazy.
The reason it blocked Lake Mine from appearing is that BHVR for some reason, treats Map Variants as Map and not Variants of a Map in the map selector system, instead of making appropriate changes, they opted for wasting 100s of hours of the map team.
Honestly I dont buy the "everybody disliked it" reason they give out for removing Map Variants, people always complain about the maps, because they blame the map, when they themselves are just bad at the game. Otherwise you would have better reasons to remove the map than "everybody disliked it", you would collect stats to show what problems the maps had. But then damn you would be on your way to fix them.
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